Which should not be confused with Frog.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Which should not be confused with Frog.

That's for sure! :lol:

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

p.p.s. The blackened insert of Mr. Reed's personal NBL opinion notwithstanding, of course. By all means, let's let the new "Civil War" bloodletting begin. The sooner... the frickin' better!

Are you telling us that you want the Blue Zone to win the Civil War? 8)

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

2) According to an article on how to keep political differences within a marital or other romantic relationship (of the 'I'm for Bush, but she likes Kerry' sort) from posing an increased threat to said relationships of a level not seen in a long time, two things are mentioned aside from the main topic. One is the increasing tendency among singles to date only people of similar political views. The other item is an exposition of *why* our political differences have become so bitter as to raise the specter of possible civil war, not to mention threatening previously stable relationships - since 9/11, most people in America have become at least somewhat anxious and afraid, and have to that extent switched into survival mode. This has become a polarizing condition because each side (conservative and liberal) sincerely believes that if the other gets in this time, we're doomed as a society. Thus, someone who supports 'the other side', even if we sleep with said person every night, almost inevitably becomes seen as a potentially dire threat to our survival. Would anyone out there, on either side, care to imagine the stress that can put on a marriage or romance?

This has even affected Swartzenegger! No sex for two weeks after his pro-Bush speech?

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

p.p.s. The blackened insert of Mr. Reed's personal NBL opinion notwithstanding, of course. By all means, let's let the new "Civil War" bloodletting begin. The sooner... the frickin' better!

Are you telling us that you want the Blue Zone to win the Civil War? 8)

Perhaps you missed the poll results?

You've won already, here at this website. :wink:

p.s. Too bad the results don't more closely mirror the real world. Which is, of course, the reason my last post here is just seven days away. 8)

Seems obvious from the degeneration of this thread into another "us vs. them" dialogue that the Culture Wars are far from over, and this is proof positive we're still stuck in the 3rd Turning. For those on this thread talking as if there would be some kind of civil war generated out of Bush vs. Kerry, I've got news for you: most of us (about 80%) would answer "You've got to be kidding!" Besides their combined blandness being uninspiring, it's like this:

Imagine that every few years a lot of people went crazy and started talking about "this lawyer is better than that lawyer", and getting all involved and even emotional about it. Everyone else, and even these people themselves after the fever has passed, will remember "What's a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?"

As far as I'm concerned, that goes as well: "What's a hundred lawyers, politicians, and journalists at the bottom of the ocean?" (Obviously this is an early cohort boomer talking.) And I don't just mean those I may or may not agree with.

Having said this, I must admit I am somewhat a fan of Senator McCain so if he gets to run in 2008 I'll probably go a little crazy too. So have your fun!

Originally Posted by EricTheRon

Seems obvious from the degeneration of this thread into another "us vs. them" dialogue that the Culture Wars are far from over, and this is proof positive we're still stuck in the 3rd Turning. For those on this thread talking as if there would be some kind of civil war generated out of Bush vs. Kerry, I've got news for you: most of us (about 80%) would answer "You've got to be kidding!" Besides their combined blandness being uninspiring, it's like this:

Imagine that every few years a lot of people went crazy and started talking about "this lawyer is better than that lawyer", and getting all involved and even emotional about it. Everyone else, and even these people themselves after the fever has passed, will remember "What's a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?"

As far as I'm concerned, that goes as well: "What's a hundred lawyers, politicians, and journalists at the bottom of the ocean?" (Obviously this is an early cohort boomer talking.) And I don't just mean those I may or may not agree with.

Having said this, I must admit I am somewhat a fan of Senator McCain so if he gets to run in 2008 I'll probably go a little crazy too. So have your fun!

Sniff. Sniff. Is that the scent of biophobia and a desire to be fossilized?

Originally Posted by EricTheRon

Seems obvious from the degeneration of this thread into another "us vs. them" dialogue that the Culture Wars are far from over, and this is proof positive we're still stuck in the 3rd Turning.

I still think the same thing, so I agree.

Having said this, I must admit I am somewhat a fan of Senator McCain so if he gets to run in 2008 I'll probably go a little crazy too. So have your fun!

Yes, he would make a good Gray Champion.

They say that sometimes, the seemingly small, seemingly unimportant, seemingly trivial details can tell the real story of where we are more accurately. Thus, I mention an editorial in this morning's USA Today, on the 'Death of the Sitcom'.

In it, the writer mentions that this is the third time since the takeoff of Broadcast Television during the last 1T that the sitcom, as a TV programming format, has been declared dead. The first time was the late 60s, and the second was the early to mid 80s. (Note the times I cited.) Could it be that with each new Turning, what constitutes 'funny' changes, and the old style sitcoms thus lose favor, with the result that the format has to be reinvented in a manner more in tune with the times? If so, the fact that this appears to be happening again could be taken as a sign of either impending 4T, or Cascade Phase 4T.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

They say that sometimes, the seemingly small, seemingly unimportant, seemingly trivial details can tell the real story of where we are more accurately. Thus, I mention an editorial in this morning's USA Today, on the 'Death of the Sitcom'.

In it, the writer mentions that this is the third time since the takeoff of Broadcast Television during the last 1T that the sitcom, as a TV programming format, has been declared dead. The first time was the late 60s, and the second was the early to mid 80s. (Note the times I cited.) Could it be that with each new Turning, what constitutes 'funny' changes, and the old style sitcoms thus lose favor, with the result that the format has to be reinvented in a manner more in tune with the times? If so, the fact that this appears to be happening again could be taken as a sign of either impending 4T, or Cascade Phase 4T.

That's certainly an interesting bellwether, and one not likely to be affected by pretenders to Gray Championship.

Originally Posted by Sam I Am

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

They say that sometimes, the seemingly small, seemingly unimportant, seemingly trivial details can tell the real story of where we are more accurately. Thus, I mention an editorial in this morning's USA Today, on the 'Death of the Sitcom'.

In it, the writer mentions that this is the third time since the takeoff of Broadcast Television during the last 1T that the sitcom, as a TV programming format, has been declared dead. The first time was the late 60s, and the second was the early to mid 80s. (Note the times I cited.) Could it be that with each new Turning, what constitutes 'funny' changes, and the old style sitcoms thus lose favor, with the result that the format has to be reinvented in a manner more in tune with the times? If so, the fact that this appears to be happening again could be taken as a sign of either impending 4T, or Cascade Phase 4T.

That's certainly an interesting bellwether, and one not likely to be affected by pretenders to Gray Championship.

The same, IMO, would apply to a similar item which I found in the same paper nearly two weeks ago, and repeat below:

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

1) Perhaps trivial, but perhaps surprisingly important, is an article indicating that so-called 'reality TV' - a late 3T phenomenon if ever there was one - is taking a pounding in the Nielsens.

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

Originally Posted by Sam I Am

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

They say that sometimes, the seemingly small, seemingly unimportant, seemingly trivial details can tell the real story of where we are more accurately. Thus, I mention an editorial in this morning's USA Today, on the 'Death of the Sitcom'...

That's certainly an interesting bellwether, and one not likely to be affected by pretenders to Gray Championship.

The same, IMO, would apply to a similar item which I found in the same paper nearly two weeks ago, and repeat below:

Originally Posted by Titus Sabinus Parthicus

1) Perhaps trivial, but perhaps surprisingly important, is an article indicating that so-called 'reality TV' - a late 3T phenomenon if ever there was one - is taking a pounding in the Nielsens.

I was just discussing that earlier with a core Xer who couldn't be happier. I agreed. It seems you do too, so our quasi-random sample is unanimous.

Originally Posted by Barbara

Originally Posted by EricTheRon

Seems obvious from the degeneration of this thread into another "us vs. them" dialogue that the Culture Wars are far from over, and this is proof positive we're still stuck in the 3rd Turning.

I still think the same thing, so I agree.

Having said this, I must admit I am somewhat a fan of Senator McCain so if he gets to run in 2008 I'll probably go a little crazy too. So have your fun!

Yes, he would make a good Gray Champion.

Barbara, it is this that I reacted to:

EricTheRon wrote:

Imagine that every few years a lot of people went crazy and started talking about "this lawyer is better than that lawyer", and getting all involved and even emotional about it. Everyone else, and even these people themselves after the fever has passed, will remember "What's a hundred lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?"

My Silent ear hears a throw-away philosophy about the American process. This, to me, sounds more like rap lyrics. Furthmore, I don't think we, as a nation, know how bad off we really are. I think domestic terrorism is a whole lot worse than those whacky Muslims. To wit: children face terror everyday at school and on the streets from unsupervised teenaged predators like bullies, gangs, and meth dealers; families face economic terror in the form of credit-card addiction and second-mortgage mania, rendering them in servitude to banks at the cost of their children who will have to pay dearly for that Devil's bargin; the poor face another kind of economic terror in the form of state-sponsored gambling and off-the-map prices for tobacco, to say nothing of the lack of health care for their children, as they are hopelessly ignorant and they must pay with their hides; and then we have the impending overthrow of Roe v. Wade when Bush is re-elected to champion that cause by way of S.C. appointments, which should strike holy terror in the hearts of all women with brains.

I like McCain, too, but he seems more like an Eisenhower in a country that is still looking for a Kennedy. Meanwhile, Nixons show up here and there to reign terror on just about everybody.

Having said all that, big sister, I'll say further that a 4T has begun sufficiently to greet the tottling Homelanders. We're in "The Late Twenties," so to speak; "The Thirties" are just around the corner, and we are acting as if it were otherwise.

It's good to have you back, Croaker

Was anyone else watching the Red Sox/Yankees game last night? After a disputed call at first base (in which Alex Rodriguez was called out for knocking the ball out of his would-be tagger's glove), New York fans rained baseballs and other debris onto the field.

The security staff called police in riot gear onto the field, where they stayed for the next inning or so, until people settled down.

I have never seen riot police on the field during a baseball game. Pretty wild stuff.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Was anyone else watching the Red Sox/Yankees game last night? After a disputed call at first base (in which Alex Rodriguez was called out for knocking the ball out of his would-be tagger's glove), New York fans rained baseballs and other debris onto the field.

The security staff called police in riot gear onto the field, where they stayed for the next inning or so, until people settled down.

I have never seen riot police on the field during a baseball game. Pretty wild stuff.

Hey! It's the single biggest remaining rivalry in sports, and the Sox are actually in the hunt.

How's this for a pre-election scenario: we let the Astros and Sox act as Bush and Kery proxies, with the winner getting to chose the President.

It can't be any worse than what's coming.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Was anyone else watching the Red Sox/Yankees game last night? After a disputed call at first base (in which Alex Rodriguez was called out for knocking the ball out of his would-be tagger's glove), New York fans rained baseballs and other debris onto the field.

The security staff called police in riot gear onto the field, where they stayed for the next inning or so, until people settled down.

I have never seen riot police on the field during a baseball game. Pretty wild stuff.

I was a bad girl. My daughter and I trashed out and watched The Greatest Loser. :oops:

Two items today:

1) Cheney saying Kerry has a "pre-9/11" (aka 3T) mindset (which I personally doubt)

2) My wife, as part of (finally) getting a Delaware driver's license, was handed a bumpersticker reading "Delaware Anti-Terrorism Tip Line: 1-800-FORCE-1-2". You could not have had that be the norm in, say, 1986 when there were serious concerns about Libyan-based terror cells.

Said bumpersticker is in the trash - no sense in one of us being reported for carrying an almanac or a map.

And lest we forget, "9/11" was three years ago. Out of curiosity - has any other event been benchmarked like this, other than in a 4T?

Oh, here's a sure sign of a 4T in the turning: Puyallup School District in the great state of Washington has canceled all Holloween activities and no costumes will be allowed at school, all of which have been officially declared offensive to the many devout Wiccans who happen to haunt the neighborhood. This is a remarkable show of respect for a religion that usually gets kicked around by the jackboots.

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil? Is there possibly a hidden agenda here?

Inquiring frogs need to know.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Oh, here's a sure sign of a 4T in the turning: Puyallup School District in the great state of Washington has canceled all Holloween activities and no costumes will be allowed at school, all of which have been officially declared offensive to the many devout Wiccans who happen to haunt the neighborhood. This is a remarkable show of respect for a religion that usually gets kicked around by the jackboots.

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil? Is there possibly a hidden agenda here?

Inquiring frogs need to know.

I thought it was the Christian fundamentalists who were offended to Halloween. Also, certain schools of thought in Judaism also don't acknowledge Halloween. For that reason, my daughter's school doesn't do any Halloween activities during school proper, although they do things at after-school care, located in the school building.

I say, lighten up everyone.

Originally Posted by EricTheRon

Seems obvious from the degeneration of this thread into another "us vs. them" dialogue that the Culture Wars are far from over, and this is proof positive we're still stuck in the 3rd Turning.

Err, no. Basically on 12 September 2001 the Religious Right claimed "victory" in the Culture Wars. And there are those on the Left who have done likewise since.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil?

No, they are actually a neopagan faith that (usually) worships a Mother Goddess and Father God, and by and large don't even believe that Satan exists, except as a Christian theological construct (though a few Wiccans may describe Satan as an ethically questionable alien deity, unworthy of notice).

Originally Posted by Hamish MacPherson

Cheney saying Kerry has a "pre-9/11" (aka 3T) mindset (which I personally doubt)

I wrote several months ago that I thought the Democrats would stick with 3T themes (e.g. "Anybody But Bush"), while the Repubs would tend to frame issues in 4T terms ("the terrrrists are out to get us all, so we gotta stick together").

However, after Kerry won the primary, pundits on the left like Jim Hightower advocated moving away from ABB toward a platform of inclusiveness (he suggested the slogan "We're All In This Together".) At the same time, the Bush campaign began an unprecedentedly negative (i.e. partisan) campaign.

By the conventions, the switch was obvious: the theme of the DNC was very 4T, basically "We Can Be All Things To All People" (a stretch, I know, but somewhat effective), where the theme of the RNC was very 3T, basically "Democrats are cowards and traitors" (even more of a stretch, and somewhat less effective.)

Cheney's comment continues this trend. It's a 3T partisan attack, essentially blaming Kerry (or Clinton) for terrorism. Meanwhile, Kerry (and now Clinton) are campaigning on 4T issues of health care, tax fairness, Social Security etc.

If Kerry wins resoundingly (which I doubt) it will be a clear sign that we are much further along toward a regeneracy than I had thought. On the other hand, if Bush wins big (which I also doubt) it will be an indication that the politics of the Culture Wars can still be a sufficient motivator.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Oh, here's a sure sign of a 4T in the turning: Puyallup School District in the great state of Washington has canceled all Holloween activities and no costumes will be allowed at school, all of which have been officially declared offensive to the many devout Wiccans who happen to haunt the neighborhood. This is a remarkable show of respect for a religion that usually gets kicked around by the jackboots.

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil? Is there possibly a hidden agenda here?

Inquiring frogs need to know.

At my kids' school, the 28th is a "Harvest Festival" -- costumes are allowed but not encouraged -- and the 29th is a "Teacher Preparation Day" (i.e. no school). This has been the practice for several years; it's partly a PC thing, so as to avoid offending fundies and Muslims as well as Wiccans; but I think the bigger motivation is to keep non-academic pursuits from taking over the school day. Seriously, my kids plan their Halloween costumes all year long (even if they always leave actual construction to the last minute. It's the grade-school version of the Prom.)

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil? Is there possibly a hidden agenda here?

Inquiring frogs need to know.

Yes. At least according to Catholic theology. Basically, any other apparent deities are manifestations of Satan. So to worship anything other than (G)od is to worship Satan. No matter how nice and fluffy that god might be, such as mother earth.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Oh, here's a sure sign of a 4T in the turning: Puyallup School District in the great state of Washington has canceled all Halloween activities and no costumes will be allowed at school, all of which have been officially declared offensive to the many devout Wiccans who happen to haunt the neighborhood. This is a remarkable show of respect for a religion that usually gets kicked around by the jackboots.

Now, I must ask: Aren't Wiccans worshipers of the Devil? Is there possibly a hidden agenda here?

Hmm... I don't know a thing about the Puyallup School District, but the Wiccans I've encountered on the East Coast are far more mellow and tolerant than your average Christian. The Wiccans I've encountered know intolerance, are accustomed to it, but don't answer back with intolerance. That they are more loving and accepting of their neighbors than the intolerant Christians is generally a mark of pride.

There really aren't any true Old Time Wiccans anymore. The pagan religion as it was once practiced pretty well died out. There are reconstructed Wiccans, which tend to include as much modern new age ideas and morality as genuine replications of historical Agricultural Age religion. There are few to no continuous traditions where each generation of priests has been trained by the predecessors in unbroken chains over the centuries. There are few to no holy text equivalents of the Bible or Koran, which are held as Holy and Perfect. When I was walking that path, I was recommended several books, which I just pulled off the shelf to check publishing dates. The Spiral Dance (1979), The Shining Paths (1983), and The Witches Qabala (1985) are as close as I have to classics. The dates say more about when I was dabbling than when modern Wicca was reinvented. Modern Wicca is somewhat akin to modern popular music. Each generation reinvents Wicca to speak to its own time and values.

As an example, if you research Tarot Cards you will soon encounter the Golden Dawn cult, who created the prototype modern Tarot decks under the belief that Tarot originated with the ancient Egyptians. This is not true. Tarot cards are a fallout of the European invention of the printing press. While the Golden Dawn decks have become accepted as a classic form, any artist with a dream might create and publish their own deck. There are lots of them, just as there are many variant flavors of neo-pagan. The neo-pagans just aren't organized enough to have doctrines and hierarchies.

Now, it is true that in the middle ages, when the old pagan religions were being persecuted, the Christians either stole or demonized pagan beliefs. The Christmas tree and the Easter Bunny are examples of pagan traditions that got integrated into Christian cultures while losing most of the pagan affiliations. Then there is the pagan god Pan, with his cloven hooves and horns, once a fairly innocent forest and nature god, perverted by the Christians into the modern image of the devil. When the Christians entered an area, they would steal many local traditions in order to bring in converts, while demonizing other local traditions. Whatever won convert, they did.

And there are Witches. According to one account, there were drug addicts in medieval times. As I understand it, there is a common weed plant, where if you boil the leaves in a large black pot to get a paste, the paste can be put on a rod (such as a broomstick) and rubbed on areas of the body where the skin is thin (such as the genitals), so the drug can be easily absorbed into the blood stream. The result was a 'high' and people with hallucinations of flying. Thus, the halloween images of witches stirring potions in black pots and flying about on a broomstick, while many degrees removed from the old reality, have some truth in them.

The drug was also addictive, and caused mental deterioration, much as many modern drugs. The Catholic Church of the time did not like drug addiction any more than the modern establishment, but in that time there was less science, more superstition, and the church had far more authority, including power over life and death. It was easy to confuse drug addiction and eternal damnation. At best, one way to handle drug addicts is to hang them or burn them at the stake. This discourages others from taking up the practice. Meanwhile, the truth gets turned to myth. Today we think it is cute when little girls dressed up in black run about with toy broomsticks.

Of course, the Catholic Church of ancient times associated this drug addiction with devil worship and the old pagan religions. I suspect drug addicts became so then for much the same reasons as today. They were looking for a high. The motivation was generally not religious. Still, religious societies tend to view everything in terms of religious values.

Anyway, the various issues supposedly involving 'Wicca' are kind of messy. As I said, the idea of politically correct Wiccans intolerant of perversions of their beliefs doesn't mesh well with the Wiccans I have encountered, but each coven seems to find its own path. Tilting with the local school committee over Halloween costumes and parties seems strange, but there is room in modern neo paganism for strangeness.

The above is not intended to imply anything about any wiccans or pseudo wiccans contributing to this site.