Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Are these guys kidding me? Taxing drivers by the mile?? Placing tracking devices on cars?? These guys make Marion Berry look sober. If they tried to do that here in Missouri, I would be very pissed off. Come on! There are other ways to raise funds. Taxing by the mile would only send the state economy into a tailspin.

DMV Director Supports Taxing Drivers by the Mile

California's new Department of Motor Vehicles director advocates overhauling the way the state raises money to maintain its roadways, but many drivers and privacy advocates find her idea alarming.

Joan Borucki has said she favors placing tracking devices on vehicles and then taxing drivers for the miles they drive. She says that as more drivers buy cars that get better gas mileage, the state is taking in less money from its gas tax. Even though Californians are driving more than ever, revenues are down nearly 10 percent.

Drivers who spend a great deal of time on the road and owners of transportation-related businesses such as trucking firms or delivery companies say such a tax could hurt. "They say small companies are the backbone of California," said Dick Parvel who owns ASAP Delivery in Stockton. "It's just more paperwork, more problems."

Under the plan the current 18 cent per gallon gas tax would be replaced by a mileage tax. Drivers would have tracking devices on their vehicles, an idea that alarms privacy advocates who worry about the state being able to keep tabs on drivers. Such a system is being tested in Oregon.

The Global Positioning System tracking devices would communicate with state computers via satellite, and downloaed information would then be used to calculate the tax bill.

Environmentalists worry that a mileage tax would remove the incentive for drivers to buy hybrid vehicles. Others say such a tax would be more open to fraud than taxing at the pump.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said today that he didn't yet have a position on the mileage tax. "I know the idea that she is talking about, but I do not know exactly what it will do," Schwarzenegger said. "So I will stop and think it through before I make a decision."

The Legislature would have to approve any change in the gas tax.

This is so stupid. Pass a law that raises the gas taxes whenever revenues fall in real terms so as to maintain them.

Even more to the point, a mileage tax penalizes those who buy high-mileage hybrid vehicles and subsidizes SUVs and pickup trucks. I assume commercial trucks pay at a different rate. If not, they'll get far and away the biggest subsidy of all.

We should be subsidizing fuel efficiency - especially now. I agree with Mike. If revenues fall because people do the right thing, then raise the fuel tax, and 'encourage' others to do the right thing, too.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Are these guys kidding me? Taxing drivers by the mile?? Placing tracking devices on cars?? These guys make Marion Berry look sober. If they tried to do that here in Missouri, I would be very pissed off. Come on! There are other ways to raise funds. Taxing by the mile would only send the state economy into a tailspin.

DMV Director Supports Taxing Drivers by the Mile

California's new Department of Motor Vehicles director advocates overhauling the way the state raises money to maintain its roadways, but many drivers and privacy advocates find her idea alarming.

Joan Borucki has said she favors placing tracking devices on vehicles and then taxing drivers for the miles they drive. She says that as more drivers buy cars that get better gas mileage, the state is taking in less money from its gas tax. Even though Californians are driving more than ever, revenues are down nearly 10 percent.

Drivers who spend a great deal of time on the road and owners of transportation-related businesses such as trucking firms or delivery companies say such a tax could hurt. "They say small companies are the backbone of California," said Dick Parvel who owns ASAP Delivery in Stockton. "It's just more paperwork, more problems."

Under the plan the current 18 cent per gallon gas tax would be replaced by a mileage tax. Drivers would have tracking devices on their vehicles, an idea that alarms privacy advocates who worry about the state being able to keep tabs on drivers. Such a system is being tested in Oregon.

The Global Positioning System tracking devices would communicate with state computers via satellite, and downloaed information would then be used to calculate the tax bill.

Environmentalists worry that a mileage tax would remove the incentive for drivers to buy hybrid vehicles. Others say such a tax would be more open to fraud than taxing at the pump.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said today that he didn't yet have a position on the mileage tax. "I know the idea that she is talking about, but I do not know exactly what it will do," Schwarzenegger said. "So I will stop and think it through before I make a decision."

The Legislature would have to approve any change in the gas tax.

This is so stupid. Pass a law that raises the gas taxes whenever revenues fall in real terms so as to maintain them.

Even more to the point, a mileage tax penalizes those who buy high-mileage hybrid vehicles and subsidizes SUVs and pickup trucks. I assume commercial trucks pay at a different rate. If not, they'll get far and away the biggest subsidy of all.

We should be subsidizing fuel efficiency - especially now. I agree with Mike. If revenues fall because people do the right thing, then raise the fuel tax, and 'encourage' others to do the right thing, too.

Perhaps something like taxing vehicles by the ton, while cutting said high-mileage hybrids a break, with a lower overall tonnage tax rate? (Say, a hybrid of a given weight would be assessed only half of what a 'regular' vehicle weighing the same amount would be assessed.)

Originally Posted by Sabinus Invictus

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Are these guys kidding me? Taxing drivers by the mile?? Placing tracking devices on cars?? These guys make Marion Berry look sober. If they tried to do that here in Missouri, I would be very pissed off. Come on! There are other ways to raise funds. Taxing by the mile would only send the state economy into a tailspin.

DMV Director Supports Taxing Drivers by the Mile

California's new Department of Motor Vehicles director advocates overhauling the way the state raises money to maintain its roadways, but many drivers and privacy advocates find her idea alarming.

Joan Borucki has said she favors placing tracking devices on vehicles and then taxing drivers for the miles they drive. She says that as more drivers buy cars that get better gas mileage, the state is taking in less money from its gas tax. Even though Californians are driving more than ever, revenues are down nearly 10 percent.

Drivers who spend a great deal of time on the road and owners of transportation-related businesses such as trucking firms or delivery companies say such a tax could hurt. "They say small companies are the backbone of California," said Dick Parvel who owns ASAP Delivery in Stockton. "It's just more paperwork, more problems."

Under the plan the current 18 cent per gallon gas tax would be replaced by a mileage tax. Drivers would have tracking devices on their vehicles, an idea that alarms privacy advocates who worry about the state being able to keep tabs on drivers. Such a system is being tested in Oregon.

The Global Positioning System tracking devices would communicate with state computers via satellite, and downloaed information would then be used to calculate the tax bill.

Environmentalists worry that a mileage tax would remove the incentive for drivers to buy hybrid vehicles. Others say such a tax would be more open to fraud than taxing at the pump.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger said today that he didn't yet have a position on the mileage tax. "I know the idea that she is talking about, but I do not know exactly what it will do," Schwarzenegger said. "So I will stop and think it through before I make a decision."

The Legislature would have to approve any change in the gas tax.

This is so stupid. Pass a law that raises the gas taxes whenever revenues fall in real terms so as to maintain them.

Even more to the point, a mileage tax penalizes those who buy high-mileage hybrid vehicles and subsidizes SUVs and pickup trucks. I assume commercial trucks pay at a different rate. If not, they'll get far and away the biggest subsidy of all.

We should be subsidizing fuel efficiency - especially now. I agree with Mike. If revenues fall because people do the right thing, then raise the fuel tax, and 'encourage' others to do the right thing, too.

Perhaps something like taxing vehicles by the ton, while cutting said hybrids a break, with a lower overall tonnage tax rate? (Say, a hybrid of a given weight would be assessed only half of what a 'regular' vehicle weighing the same amount would be assessed.)

Why create an extra complication? There already is a gas tax, just raise it and its done. Heavy vehicles burn more gas and will get taxed more. Light vehicles will get taxed less. No new elements for people to get upset about are created. It's win-win. Why are gas taxes so problematic? I'd rather pay more at the pump than a huge fee when I register my auto.

Besides taxing gas produces all sort of favorable externalities as well as fund highway maintenance. It's a no brainer.

Georgia State Senate Votes to Honor Frogs

Originally Posted by AP

Last year, the plan was passed in the House, over complaints that it was frivolous, before dying in the Senate.

:mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow:

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

Georgia State Senate Votes to Honor Frogs

Originally Posted by AP

Last year, the plan was passed in the House, over complaints that it was frivolous, before dying in the Senate.

:mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow:

NTTIAWWT!

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

Georgia State Senate Votes to Honor Frogs

Originally Posted by AP

Last year, the plan was passed in the House, over complaints that it was frivolous, before dying in the Senate.

:mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow: :mrgreen: :arrow:

:lol:

I recall from when I lived in Southern Georgia that roadside frog gigging was a favorite state pasttime. Does one honor a frog when one consumes its legs? :shock:

Canada finds backbone..this could be an indication of something...


Martin will say No to U.S. missile shield in surprise announcement

I recall, a long time ago, while on a trip fishing for pike and muskies in northern Wisconsin, that frogs were dispensed as bait through vending machines. This appalling business certainly did not honor the frogs; they were sold like block ice. You could plunck your coins into the slot and hold a bucket under a spout, throw a level, and bunch of frogs would plop out. Eventually, even Wisconsin got civilized enough to pass a law against it, but I know a lot of gigging still goes on.

--Croakmore

Somehow, when even your national news finds this to be fascinating, I don't think the winter has come now.

But then again, it's simply lighthearted and whimsical as opposed to biting and edgy. So I guess that's a start.

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Somehow, when even your national news finds this to be fascinating, I don't think the winter has come now.

But then again, it's simply lighthearted and whimsical as opposed to biting and edgy. So I guess that's a start.

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

Ah, ignorance of history is truly bliss. Meet the Paris Hilton of our favorite featured fourth:

• 

Her caption read: "Brenda Frazier - Popular debutante and spoiled rich girl who regularly made the papers for a variety of romps which illustrated how well some segments of society were living while others starved."

So is Ms. Hilton romping while others are suffering under American imperialism and Bushie tyranny?

Watching Jon Stewart last night, when Jennings was talking about UFOs, Stewart kept nudging that maybe war and terrorism and civil discontent were real newsworthy problems. But Jennings kind of said UFOs is what people want.

That would be 3T

OTOH, Lost features as characters a disparate variety of Xers playing lead roles in the new community. But the wise old sage who only speaks when needs be, and sees through the crap to people's problems. Well he seems awfully Grey Champ to me.

That might be 4T

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

Ah, ignorance of history is truly bliss. Meet the Paris Hilton of our favorite featured fourth:

• 

Her caption read: "Brenda Frazier - Popular debutante and spoiled rich girl who regularly made the papers for a variety of romps which illustrated how well some segments of society were living while others starved."

Well, it looks like Miss Frazier is being shamed for her behavior, which is not what happens today with the media coverage of Miss Hilton, which might poke fun at her - or be sympathetic, as with the recent story of the hacked cell phone. Perhaps Millie spoled brats who follow in Hilton's footsteps can expect the same shame treatment, and no more indulgence.

Jimmy Fallon interviewing Hilton on Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update: "So, there actually is a Paris Hilton? Tell me, is it easy to get into the Paris Hilton?" Cocks eyebrow and looks smarmily at camera.

Originally Posted by a Wa[i

Po[/i] scribe]Dominatrix!

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

'Bow's A Wow!'

• --The New York Times response to Miss Frazier's "coming out" debut in 1938

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

Ah, ignorance of history is truly bliss. Meet the Paris Hilton of our favorite featured fourth:

• 

Her caption read: "Brenda Frazier - Popular debutante and spoiled rich girl who regularly made the papers for a variety of romps which illustrated how well some segments of society were living while others starved."

Well, it looks like Miss Frazier is being shamed for her behavior, which is not what happens today with the media coverage of Miss Hilton, which might poke fun at her - or be sympathetic, as with the recent story of the hacked cell phone. Perhaps Millie spoled brats who follow in Hilton's footsteps can expect the same shame treatment, and no more indulgence.

Jimmy Fallon interviewing Hilton on Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update: "So, there actually is a Paris Hilton? Tell me, is it easy to get into the Paris Hilton?" Cocks eyebrow and looks smarmily at camera.

You might want to google "cafe society," of which the "poor little rich girl," Miss Frazier, was dubbed queen, to get a broader (pardon the pun) picture of the celebrated (far from "shamed") bimbo that thrived right through the depresssion. I think you're confusing your turnings, here. The gay (again, pardon the pun) bimbo died a cruel death in the wake of Bernadine Dohrn and the Feminazis of the sixties.

p.s. Insert Bob Hope for Jimmy Fallon, and Veronica Lake for Paris Hilton and the joke (complete with a cocked eyebrow) would be nearly identical. :wink:

that's an interesting caption. Life was not a liberal mag, but it's a class warfare quote, showing how generally those sentiments were held at the height of the depression. That's what leads to 90% marginal tax rates, I guess.. .

David K '47

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

that's an interesting caption. Life was not a liberal mag, but it's a class warfare quote, showing how generally those sentiments were held at the height of the depression...

That's exactly right, Professor. The whole Stork Club "cafe' society" mentality -- the "celebutante" as Winchell called them -- was a J. Edgar Hoover gig, with conservatives like Henry Luce and Orson Wells et al in toto. It was primarily aimed at exploiting young, rich females, like Miss Fraizer, for the sole purpose of demoralizing the working class poor. It was a sort of an in-your-face-poor-fella rebuke at those struggling under the staggering weight of capitalism in the 1930s. FDR's National Recovery Act, had it survived the fascist SCOTUS onslaught, would have no doubt de-coded this gig in a heartbeat. As it was, even JFK was soon to join J. Edgar at the famed hotbed of sexploitation:

• 
  Mr. & Mrs. Alfred Vanderbilt with Rep. John F. Kennedy at
  the famed, conservative hotbed, the Stork Club.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

... class warfare... That's what leads to 90% marginal tax rates, I guess. David K '47

Finally, we find some warmongering that libs can really sink their teeth into! 8)

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Somehow, when even your national news finds this to be fascinating, I don't think the winter has come now.

But then again, it's simply lighthearted and whimsical as opposed to biting and edgy. So I guess that's a start.

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

I just watched the "Numa Numa dance." Man, was that funny!

Folks, I think ya'all got the wrong, or just a one-sided, picture of what the thirties were really like. I would encourage ya to find a video copy of Brother, can you spare a dime. It, too, can be quite funny, as laughter is often the best medicine even in the face of the '30s.

• 

Try it, it'll do your crisismongering hearts good! 8)

Originally Posted by Steve Barrera

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Somehow, when even your national news finds this to be fascinating, I don't think the winter has come now.

But then again, it's simply lighthearted and whimsical as opposed to biting and edgy. So I guess that's a start.

Yeah, funny little distraction stories like this make sense for a Fourth Turning. It will be stupid spoiled whores like Paris Hilton that will drop off the radar screen.

I just watched the "Numa Numa dance." Man, was that funny!

Folks, I think ya'all got the wrong, or just a one-sided, picture of what the thirties were really like. I would encourage ya to find a video copy of Brother, can you spare a dime. It, too, can be quite funny, as laughter is often the best medicine even in the face of the '30s.

• 

Try it, it'll do your crisismongering hearts good! 8)

Does anyone here really think that the 30's can repeat themselves? While the cycles of history described in T4T suggest they can, I still believe that American society is in too cocky a mood to believe it can. The assumption today is that there are too many safeguards incorporated into our economic system. Any thoughts on this? I know that many on this forum are speculating that this 4T will feature The Great Devaluation in lieu of last 4T's Great Depression.

Does anyone here really think that the 30's can repeat themselves? While the cycles of history described in T4T suggest they can, I still believe that American society is in too cocky a mood to believe it can. The assumption today is that there are too many safeguards incorporated into our economic system. Any thoughts on this? I know that many on this forum are speculating that this 4T will feature The Great Devaluation in lieu of last 4T's Great Depression.

Harry S. Dent uses Strauss & Howe's cyclical theory to predict that the economic stress cycle of the 1903's will come again.

http://www.hsdent.com/content/deflation.cfm

"The previous generation's Deflationary Shakeout occurred between 1930 and 1942. Ours will begin between 2008 and 2010. ...

This season of the previous 80-year cycle occurred between 1930 and 1942. Stock prices fell dramatically, losing 90% of their value, from late 1929 and into 1932. Consumer prices fell equally dramatically from 1930 into 1933. Real estate values plummeted.

I predict that the stock market is likely to peak by late 2008, and that the next Deflationary Shakeout will begin between 2008 and 2010. "

Harry S. Dent uses Strauss & Howe's cyclical theory to predict that the economic stress cycle of the 1903's will come again.

http://www.hsdent.com/content/deflation.cfm

"The previous generation's Deflationary Shakeout occurred between 1930 and 1942. Ours will begin between 2008 and 2010. ...

This season of the previous 80-year cycle occurred between 1930 and 1942. Stock prices fell dramatically, losing 90% of their value, from late 1929 and into 1932. Consumer prices fell equally dramatically from 1930 into 1933. Real estate values plummeted.

I predict that the stock market is likely to peak by late 2008, and that the next Deflationary Shakeout will begin between 2008 and 2010. "

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

Does anyone here really think that the 30's can repeat themselves? While the cycles of history described in T4T suggest they can, I still believe that American society is in too cocky a mood to believe it can. The assumption today is that there are too many safeguards incorporated into our economic system. Any thoughts on this? I know that many on this forum are speculating that this 4T will feature The Great Devaluation in lieu of last 4T's Great Depression.

I think it can happen, and probably will. As was true in the 1920s and 1930s, "the economy is fundamentally unsound." In fact, I would argue that it is even MORE unsound today since our economy is held up by foreign corporations. Most nations are very jittery about the dollar, and many fear a panic on the dollar.

I think that this time around, the reaction will not be the same. It never is totally the same during the next Crisis era as was the previous. And if history holds true, if an issue during a Crisis was not totally solved, it WILL return the next one, and the reaction will be even more severe.

For instance, compare the Glorious Revolution to the American Revolution. Both Crises were mainly rebellions against the British Crown in the colonies. In the case of the Glorious Revolution, the end result was a series of destructive riots between 1689 and 1692 which eventually restored British rule over the colonies under a new monarchy. In the case of the American Revolution, the end result was total war against the British Crown.

The American Revolution banned slavery north of the Mason-Dixon line, but not in the south. The reaction against slavery in the Civil War was much more severe.

As was stated in T4T, the main enemy of the 1960s movements was "corporate liberalism." I think corporate liberalism will be the main enemy of the coming Crisis. The underlying issues of the Great Depression were never resolved, and the main reason is because of the war. The war ended the Depression, but only because of military spending. The economy is very flawed right now. If you want to know what I think is coming, just look at the history of Argentina for this decade. I doubt that Millennials will patiently endure a Depression the same way the GIs did (even though S&H claim they will).

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

Does anyone here really think that the 30's can repeat themselves? While the cycles of history described in T4T suggest they can, I still believe that American society is in too cocky a mood to believe it can. The assumption today is that there are too many safeguards incorporated into our economic system. Any thoughts on this? I know that many on this forum are speculating that this 4T will feature The Great Devaluation in lieu of last 4T's Great Depression.

I think it can happen, and probably will. As was true in the 1920s and 1930s, "the economy is fundamentally unsound." In fact, I would argue that it is even MORE unsound today since our economy is held up by foreign corporations. Most nations are very jittery about the dollar, and many fear a panic on the dollar.

I think that this time around, the reaction will not be the same. It never is totally the same during the next Crisis era as was the previous. And if history holds true, if an issue during a Crisis was not totally solved, it WILL return the next one, and the reaction will be even more severe.

For instance, compare the Glorious Revolution to the American Revolution. Both Crises were mainly rebellions against the British Crown in the colonies. In the case of the Glorious Revolution, the end result was a series of destructive riots between 1689 and 1692 which eventually restored British rule over the colonies under a new monarchy. In the case of the American Revolution, the end result was total war against the British Crown.

The American Revolution banned slavery north of the Mason-Dixon line, but not in the south. The reaction against slavery in the Civil War was much more severe.

As was stated in T4T, the main enemy of the 1960s movements was "corporate liberalism." I think corporate liberalism will be the main enemy of the coming Crisis. The underlying issues of the Great Depression were never resolved, and the main reason is because of the war. The war ended the Depression, but only because of military spending. The economy is very flawed right now. If you want to know what I think is coming, just look at the history of Argentina for this decade. I doubt that Millennials will patiently endure a Depression the same way the GIs did (even though S&H claim they will).