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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 426







Post#10626 at 01-18-2006 02:13 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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01-18-2006, 02:13 PM #10626
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Quote Originally Posted by The Roadrunner
Do you guys even *attempt* to understand the position of your political opponents?
DA is far more interested in defeating the straw man world views he projects upon his opponents than actually dealing with other human beings. It is so much easier to score points on your own goal.







Post#10627 at 01-18-2006 02:13 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Roadrunner
Do you guys even *attempt* to understand the position of your political opponents?
DA is far more interested in defeating the straw man world views he projects upon his opponents than actually dealing with other human beings. It is so much easier to score points on your own goal.







Post#10628 at 01-18-2006 02:24 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-18-2006, 02:24 PM #10628
Guest

It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.







Post#10629 at 01-18-2006 02:24 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-18-2006, 02:24 PM #10629
Guest

It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.







Post#10630 at 01-18-2006 02:44 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
We're glad you noticed.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10631 at 01-18-2006 02:44 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
We're glad you noticed.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10632 at 01-18-2006 02:45 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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01-18-2006, 02:45 PM #10632
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
Please review my DA-response prediction above, and note how well the 2nd and 3rd options seem to fit. QED
I'll claim a hit on my 1 and 2 at least.
Feel free to claim a sweep.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10633 at 01-18-2006 02:45 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
Please review my DA-response prediction above, and note how well the 2nd and 3rd options seem to fit. QED
I'll claim a hit on my 1 and 2 at least.
Feel free to claim a sweep.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10634 at 01-19-2006 08:38 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
If Bush raises taxes, institutes a military draft, reads every email to and from Osama, creates massive WWII-era deficits, directs Rummy to kill enmasse, and, in general, acts like Lincoln or FDR, then Bush should be impeached NOW!

If bin Laden is killed then Bush is probably guilty of violating the Geneva Conventions.
I see you were opposed to taking out Bin Laden. I disagree, but then we have many differences on policy.







Post#10635 at 01-19-2006 08:38 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
If Bush raises taxes, institutes a military draft, reads every email to and from Osama, creates massive WWII-era deficits, directs Rummy to kill enmasse, and, in general, acts like Lincoln or FDR, then Bush should be impeached NOW!

If bin Laden is killed then Bush is probably guilty of violating the Geneva Conventions.
I see you were opposed to taking out Bin Laden. I disagree, but then we have many differences on policy.







Post#10636 at 01-19-2006 09:35 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-19-2006, 09:35 AM #10636
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  • PRINCETON, N.J. (AP) — U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton called for United Nations sanctions against Iran as it resumes its nuclear program and faulted the Bush administration for "downplaying" the threat.
Bush sucks. Go Hillary in '08!







Post#10637 at 01-19-2006 09:35 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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01-19-2006, 09:35 AM #10637
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  • PRINCETON, N.J. (AP) — U.S. Sen. Hillary Clinton called for United Nations sanctions against Iran as it resumes its nuclear program and faulted the Bush administration for "downplaying" the threat.
Bush sucks. Go Hillary in '08!







Post#10638 at 01-19-2006 12:42 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
I didn't think you were interested in debating. You attack your perceptions of 'what all liberals think' rather than what your opponent is saying. You throw around insults and jokes rather than address what your opponent is saying. Debate is a two way street. Debate involves listening to what the other guy is saying, and understanding his perspective at least well enough to criticize it or provide constructive alternatives. Your whole persona and modus operandi is incompatible with 'debate.'

I don't think intelligence is the problem.







Post#10639 at 01-19-2006 12:42 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
I didn't think you were interested in debating. You attack your perceptions of 'what all liberals think' rather than what your opponent is saying. You throw around insults and jokes rather than address what your opponent is saying. Debate is a two way street. Debate involves listening to what the other guy is saying, and understanding his perspective at least well enough to criticize it or provide constructive alternatives. Your whole persona and modus operandi is incompatible with 'debate.'

I don't think intelligence is the problem.







Post#10640 at 01-19-2006 01:05 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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01-19-2006, 01:05 PM #10640
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
I didn't think you were interested in debating. You attack your perceptions of 'what all liberals think' rather than what your opponent is saying. You throw around insults and jokes rather than address what your opponent is saying. Debate is a two way street. Debate involves listening to what the other guy is saying, and understanding his perspective at least well enough to criticize it or provide constructive alternatives. Your whole persona and modus operandi is incompatible with 'debate.'

I don't think intelligence is the problem.
Very diplomatic, but I prefer my snide remark. It's in keeping with the demeanor of the recipient. 8)
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10641 at 01-19-2006 01:05 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate
It's way too obvious you folks are way too smart for me to debate.
I didn't think you were interested in debating. You attack your perceptions of 'what all liberals think' rather than what your opponent is saying. You throw around insults and jokes rather than address what your opponent is saying. Debate is a two way street. Debate involves listening to what the other guy is saying, and understanding his perspective at least well enough to criticize it or provide constructive alternatives. Your whole persona and modus operandi is incompatible with 'debate.'

I don't think intelligence is the problem.
Very diplomatic, but I prefer my snide remark. It's in keeping with the demeanor of the recipient. 8)
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10642 at 01-19-2006 02:57 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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01-19-2006, 02:57 PM #10642
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Back to smoking--

As Smoke Clears, Tobacco Maker Opens Lounge
By MONICA DAVEY
CHICAGO, Jan. 18 - The room is lined with vintage ashtrays, delicate lighters, matches and pens shaped like cigarettes. The scent, naturally, is of smoke.

Chicago's smoking ban took effect this week, but it was hard to know that from inside the gleaming lounge along Milwaukee Avenue in a hip neighborhood on the North Side. Here, under glass, are thick jars of tobacco - Oriental Rose, The Empress, The Earl - poured lovingly into white smoking papers by tobacco's answer to the coffee shop barista...
Full story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/national/19smoke.

They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#10643 at 01-19-2006 02:57 PM by elilevin [at Red Hill, New Mexico joined Jan 2002 #posts 452]
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Back to smoking--

As Smoke Clears, Tobacco Maker Opens Lounge
By MONICA DAVEY
CHICAGO, Jan. 18 - The room is lined with vintage ashtrays, delicate lighters, matches and pens shaped like cigarettes. The scent, naturally, is of smoke.

Chicago's smoking ban took effect this week, but it was hard to know that from inside the gleaming lounge along Milwaukee Avenue in a hip neighborhood on the North Side. Here, under glass, are thick jars of tobacco - Oriental Rose, The Empress, The Earl - poured lovingly into white smoking papers by tobacco's answer to the coffee shop barista...
Full story here: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/19/national/19smoke.

They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
Elisheva Levin

"It is not up to us to complete the task,
but neither are we free to desist from it."
--Pirkei Avot







Post#10644 at 01-19-2006 04:42 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
Very diplomatic, but I prefer my snide remark. It's in keeping with the demeanor of the recipient. 8)
But then you are letting him win. You are reducing the level of conversation to his level. I confess, I fall into the same trap at times, but don't let it become a habit please?







Post#10645 at 01-19-2006 04:42 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon
Very diplomatic, but I prefer my snide remark. It's in keeping with the demeanor of the recipient. 8)
But then you are letting him win. You are reducing the level of conversation to his level. I confess, I fall into the same trap at times, but don't let it become a habit please?







Post#10646 at 01-19-2006 10:20 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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01-19-2006, 10:20 PM #10646
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Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
I'm with you here. The first degree of change seems correct. A vice that may be harmful to the individuals practicing it is allowed, so long as others are not harmed.

I start to get a bit lost when I wonder if these smoking rooms should be allowed to serve food. If smoking bans include all restaurants, does this imply that while practicing one's vice, one cannot eat?

Not that there aren't other more dire difficulties facing our culture...







Post#10647 at 01-19-2006 10:20 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
I'm with you here. The first degree of change seems correct. A vice that may be harmful to the individuals practicing it is allowed, so long as others are not harmed.

I start to get a bit lost when I wonder if these smoking rooms should be allowed to serve food. If smoking bans include all restaurants, does this imply that while practicing one's vice, one cannot eat?

Not that there aren't other more dire difficulties facing our culture...







Post#10648 at 01-20-2006 10:13 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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01-20-2006, 10:13 AM #10648
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
I'm with you here. The first degree of change seems correct. A vice that may be harmful to the individuals practicing it is allowed, so long as others are not harmed.

I start to get a bit lost when I wonder if these smoking rooms should be allowed to serve food. If smoking bans include all restaurants, does this imply that while practicing one's vice, one cannot eat?

Not that there aren't other more dire difficulties facing our culture...
Obviously, having a Smoking Area immediately adjacent to a Non-Smoking Area, without even the minimal benefit of a buffer, was a pander to smokers and a bain to the rest of us. But making any accommodation illegal is merely the flip-side of the pander. I say, let smokers have facilties of their own (if they can make a go of them), and non-smokers can enter if they wish.

With so few smokers around these days, these clubs (or whatever they end-up being) should be few and far between. If they take-off, then so be it.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10649 at 01-20-2006 10:13 AM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54
Quote Originally Posted by elilevin
They have done in Chicago what is happening in cities with smoking bans across the nation. This is not like prohibition. The Temperance weenies didn't want anybody to drink at all. Non-smokers just want to breath clean air. Smoking bans are not attempts to make society more moral. They are intended to protect the right to breathe of those with allergies and asthma.
I'm with you here. The first degree of change seems correct. A vice that may be harmful to the individuals practicing it is allowed, so long as others are not harmed.

I start to get a bit lost when I wonder if these smoking rooms should be allowed to serve food. If smoking bans include all restaurants, does this imply that while practicing one's vice, one cannot eat?

Not that there aren't other more dire difficulties facing our culture...
Obviously, having a Smoking Area immediately adjacent to a Non-Smoking Area, without even the minimal benefit of a buffer, was a pander to smokers and a bain to the rest of us. But making any accommodation illegal is merely the flip-side of the pander. I say, let smokers have facilties of their own (if they can make a go of them), and non-smokers can enter if they wish.

With so few smokers around these days, these clubs (or whatever they end-up being) should be few and far between. If they take-off, then so be it.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#10650 at 01-21-2006 01:11 AM by Linus [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 1,731]
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I think they have ceiling fans now that suck up something like 99.8% of all particles in the air, including cigarette smoke.
"Jan, cut the crap."

"It's just a donut."
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