= = =

Originally Posted by Mary Fitzmas

Originally Posted by takascar2

GI's started in 1905, I believe. All four of my grandparents were late, late Losts - 1901 - 1904. Both parents are Silents (1930, 1938). All of my aunts and uncles are Silents as well, except the oldest (Nov 1925) who is just at the very end of the GI's. Me and my sibs are all Xers (1962 - 1965).

It's an old argument, but from what I know of my first-wave GI relatives, most born after 1900 came down on the GI side of the equation.

In a very remarkable case, my great grandmother who was born Italy moved with her family to the US in 1900 when she was 8. And all the children born before the move were given Italian names - Francesco, Rosaria, Rosina - but those born after the move - the first wave GIs - grew up with American names - Margaret, John - very unItalian names.

Actually, all of my grandparents behaved more like GIs than Lost. My grandfather (born in Italy and came here when he was 18 months old) changed both his first name and last name to sound more "American".

Originally Posted by takascar2

GI's started in 1905, I believe. All four of my grandparents were late, late Losts - 1901 - 1904. Both parents are Silents (1930, 1938). All of my aunts and uncles are Silents as well, except the oldest (Nov 1925) who is just at the very end of the GI's. Me and my sibs are all Xers (1962 - 1965).

About your uncle or aunt that was born in 1925, most people view 1925 cohorts as first-wave Silents, because the Crisis ended before they came of age. An exception are those who actually saw action in WWII, who are considered honorary GI's, because they were forged with the GI spirit by fighting in WWII.

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Originally Posted by takascar2

GI's started in 1905, I believe. All four of my grandparents were late, late Losts - 1901 - 1904. Both parents are Silents (1930, 1938). All of my aunts and uncles are Silents as well, except the oldest (Nov 1925) who is just at the very end of the GI's. Me and my sibs are all Xers (1962 - 1965).

About your uncle or aunt that was born in 1925, most people view 1925 cohorts as first-wave Silents, because the Crisis ended before they came of age. An exception are those who actually saw action in WWII, who are considered honorary GI's, because they were forged with the GI spirit by fighting in WWII.

My parents were both 1914 cohorts, and GIs to the core. Neither lived to see the 3T, in fact my father missed the 2T. I never had the luxury of seeing how they viewed the emerging future - or me as an adult, for that matter.

My wife's parents are 1923 cohorts, and should be cuspers, but they spent most of WW-II at Fort Knox. I count them as GIs. Neither thinks either Bush is/was fit for office.

= = =

Originally Posted by Mary Fitzmas

The Prophet Obama

"As gas prices keep rising, the Middle East grows every more unstable and the ice caps continue to melt, we face a now-or-never, once-in-a-generation opportunity to set this country on a different course," he said.

He's pitching a pretty conservative program, if you ask me. It's faster incrementalism. We need some out-of-the-box thinking, and this isn't it.

Next!

After 400 pages of this thread, I wonder just what is the general verdict of the posters here as to which turning we are in. It seems to me that we are still in 3T mode, because IMO society didn't change that much following 911. Seems as if we reverted to former patterns after a week, and have pretty much stayed there since. I wonder if we won't really hit 4T until the turn of the decade around 2010.

The Terror of the Little Girl :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :shock:

Originally Posted by Brian Beecher

After 400 pages of this thread, I wonder just what is the general verdict of the posters here as to which turning we are in. It seems to me that we are still in 3T mode, because IMO society didn't change that much following 911. Seems as if we reverted to former patterns after a week, and have pretty much stayed there since. I wonder if we won't really hit 4T until the turn of the decade around 2010.

I've decided to cross into the 4T camp, based on the Katrina debaucle, not 9/11. I finally feel a shift. The GOP swagger is going and the Dems are finally starting to act like they can get a clue. It may be wishful thinking, but I'm sold for now.

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

The Terror of the Little Girl :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :shock:

Homeland Insecurity.

Has anyone been watching 24, where the Dept. of Homeland Security are the bad guys, apparently helping the POTUS in a plot to overthrow the Constitution and bring on martial law? The plot developments of the last few episodes have been rather eyebrow-raising to me. I don't recall in the past where a TV show would be casting a government agency in such a sinister light. The X-Files was Sci-fi and pretty vague about its conspiracies, 24 has DHS actively inhibiting the search for terrorists and threatening the legitimate agency who is hunting down the terrorists. Also, the people in DHS are slime, really sinister upper-level DHS personnel.

Originally Posted by mandelbrot5

Has anyone been watching 24, where the Dept. of Homeland Security are the bad guys, apparently helping the POTUS in a plot to overthrow the Constitution and bring on martial law? The plot developments of the last few episodes have been rather eyebrow-raising to me. I don't recall in the past where a TV show would be casting a government agency in such a sinister light. The X-Files was Sci-fi and pretty vague about its conspiracies, 24 has DHS actively inhibiting the search for terrorists and threatening the legitimate agency who is hunting down the terrorists. Also, the people in DHS are slime, really sinister upper-level DHS personnel.

That plot twist was quite an eye-opener, wasn't it? I haven't quite put all the pieces together. The POTUS has been portrayed to this point as a bumbling idiot, and the show was leading us to believe that the Veep (brilliantly played to this point by Ray Wise) was the big heavy behind the terrorist plot.

As for the DHS folks, I'd keep an eye on Karen Hayes (the blond woman). I'm not sure she's in on the coup. That flunky of hers is, though.

Evidence we be 4T:
http://www.cleveland.com/search/inde...l?nnpla&coll=2

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Originally Posted by mandelbrot5

Has anyone been watching 24, where the Dept. of Homeland Security are the bad guys, apparently helping the POTUS in a plot to overthrow the Constitution and bring on martial law? The plot developments of the last few episodes have been rather eyebrow-raising to me. I don't recall in the past where a TV show would be casting a government agency in such a sinister light. The X-Files was Sci-fi and pretty vague about its conspiracies, 24 has DHS actively inhibiting the search for terrorists and threatening the legitimate agency who is hunting down the terrorists. Also, the people in DHS are slime, really sinister upper-level DHS personnel.

That plot twist was quite an eye-opener, wasn't it? I haven't quite put all the pieces together. The POTUS has been portrayed to this point as a bumbling idiot, and the show was leading us to believe that the Veep (brilliantly played to this point by Ray Wise) was the big heavy behind the terrorist plot.

As for the DHS folks, I'd keep an eye on Karen Hayes (the blond woman). I'm not sure she's in on the coup. That flunky of hers is, though.

The plot twist is interesting. I hope they manage to pull it off believably. Through the early part of the season, POTUS was shown as indecisive, unable to make difficult terrorist related decisions. This was acted well. Now we find out he is masterminding terror?

As I understand it, the major plot lines of 24 are not locked in firm at season start. The writers ad-lib, and have been known to take the show in directions they did not anticipate from the beginning. I just hope the current twist can be kept believable in terms of character and motivation.

But, yes, 24 is unusual this season in portraying a conspiracy worthy of the conspiracy theories that tend to show up at the start of many major US wars. Who fired the first shot at Lexington Green? Were the supply boats sent by Lincoln to Fort Sumpter intended to provoke the bombardment? What caused the USS Maine explosion? Given the pre Pearl Harbor decrypts of Japanese diplomatic traffic, is it reasonable to believe that the lack of warning to Pearl was a mistake?

Hopefully, 24 closes out their season well.

Government = terrorists is the central theme of V for Vendetta too. Is this a new meme emerging? Echos from the collective unconscious? See 9/11 thread.

Originally Posted by Lorin

Government = terrorists is the central theme of V for Vendetta too. Is this a new meme emerging? Echos from the collective unconscious? See 9/11 thread.

I don't think the echoes of the real world in V for Vendetta were at all unconscious. I left the movie wondering if they should have found an actor a little less reminiscent of Hitler, a little more of Bush. They were not subtle. :wink:

If not a new meme, at least a viable theme for novelists and scriptwriters. I do not at all believe Bush was the first president to lie an trick the American People into a war, but he has been the most clumsy about it. The resultant widely accepted belief that a democratic government will lie and manipulate so widely opens the door for fiction writers. More extreme plots will be found believable.

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Evidence we be 4T:
http://www.cleveland.com/search/inde...l?nnpla&coll=2

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I will post Tom's linked article in full. THIS is one of the reasons why the Unpatriot Act needs to be opposed.

**For Discussion Purposes Only**


The PLAIN DEALER
A career destroyed; a dangerous message sent
Sunday, April 02, 2006
Peter Agre

There is growing recognition that the misapplication of the Patriot Act and related legislation conflicts with personal liberty. But most Americans probably can't name a single U.S. citizen who has been unfairly treated.

I can: Dr. Thomas C. Butler, my former professor at Case Western Reserve School of Medicine and longtime friend.

The horror of Sept. 11, 2001, and the anthrax mailings that caused five deaths later that year seem to have created a lasting culture of fear that likely contributed to what has happened to Butler.

He didn't work with anthrax. A recognized humanitarian, Butler had dedicated his career to the treatment of horrible infections in the developing world. His work on diarrheal diseases is credited with saving the lives of roughly 2 million children every year, according to the World Health Organization. More recently, Butler had been in Tanzania studying the bacterium that causes plague -- the Black Death of the Middle Ages. The bacterium is endemic around the globe and kills many in Africa each year. But now plague is also on the U.S. government's list of potential bioterror organisms.

In January 2003, a rack of plague samples from Tanzania went missing from Butler's laboratory at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. As required, Butler reported this to authorities at TTU, and they informed local law enforcement and the FBI.

The response from law enforcement was staggering. Sixty agents descended on the campus. CNN covered it live.

Interrogations went on through the night. Butler assisted the federal agents, who eventually concluded that no break-in had occurred. Instead, they suggested that the vials had been properly disposed of, but the disposal hadn't been properly recorded. They promised Butler that if he signed a statement to that effect, the investigation would end and everyone could return to work.

Although he had no recollection of such a disposal, Butler -- without legal representation -- agreed late in the second day to sign a statement that a "misjudgment" had occurred.

He was immediately arrested, and his home overrun by federal agents. He was held without bail for seven days and brought before a federal magistrate, where he was charged with 15 felony counts, including lying to the FBI and multiple counts of smuggling bioterrorism weapons. The agents offered a plea bargain: a huge fine and six months in prison. Convinced he was innocent, Butler rejected the offer. But instead of going to trial on the charges they'd levied against him, agents from the Department of Justice scoured Butler's entire life and piled on dozens of peripheral charges stemming from their investigation of his finances. Unbelievably, Butler found himself facing 69 felony counts that could have brought a total of roughly 470 years in prison, all because of a situation the FBI itself decided never happened.

In December 2003, after a month-long trial, the jury cleared Butler of all serious charges related to bioterrorism.

But to the surprise of many, jurors found him guilty of three minor charges related to clerical errors made during a sample shipment and guilty of some confusing charges of theft related to consulting arrangements he had outside Texas Tech. The judge handed down the lightest possible sentence -- two years in a federal prison. Butler is now a free man again, but life as he and his family knew it is over.

What are the consequences of Tom Butler's prosecution and imprisonment?

Butler's sad case was probably meant to suggest that the U.S. Department of Justice is tough on bioterrorism and to send a warning to anyone determined to harm the United States.

I doubt that will be its legacy.

Instead, it has sent a warning to other dedicated research scientists. The country needs to know how to prepare for bioterrorist attacks and to prevent illness and death from plague and other infectious diseases. But many scientists are reluctant to study these organisms because their best attempts to know and to obey applicable regulations still might land them in prison, might cost them their faculty positions, their licenses to practice medicine, or their right to vote.

I do not believe the Patriot Act or similar laws were intended to snare the Tom Butlers of America. As the culture of fear subsides, the House and Senate should do what they can to make sure that the government's enforcement of legislation meant to protect our country does so without costing us -- and the world -- another Tom Butler.

Agre, a co-recipient of the 2003 Nobel Prize in chemistry, was Medical House officer at University Hospitals of Cleveland from 1975 to 1978. He is a physician and faculty member at Duke University School of Medicine.

Originally Posted by Lorin

Government = terrorists is the central theme of V for Vendetta too. Is this a new meme emerging? Echos from the collective unconscious? See 9/11 thread.

Remember, Remember
The Eleventh of September
Neocons, Treason, and Plot,
I See No Reason Why
The PNAC and Their Treason
Should Ever Be Forgot.

-- Al CIAda, V for Vendetta On-Line Guestbook

Now I don't think that the CIA or any portion of our government had anything to do with 9/11. But I do think how they handled it afterward was criminal. We are still not safe today, perhaps less. Therefore Dubya=Osama is not a huge stretch in that context. Our nation voted in E2K4 to help bin Laden. We are doing exactly what he wanted us to do. The only question now is, will we go the way of the Soviet Union? Is he that good?

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Evidence we be 4T:
http://www.cleveland.com/search/inde...l?nnpla&coll=2

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I will post Tom's linked article in full. THIS is one of the reasons why the Unpatriot Act needs to be opposed.

**For Discussion Purposes Only**


The PLAIN DEALER
A career destroyed; a dangerous message sent
Sunday, April 02, 2006
Peter Agre

There is growing recognition that the misapplication of the Patriot Act and related legislation conflicts with personal liberty. But most Americans probably can't name a single U.S. citizen who has been unfairly treated.

I can: Dr. Thomas C. Butler, my former professor at Case Western Reserve School of Medicine and longtime friend.

The horror of Sept. 11, 2001, and the anthrax mailings that caused five deaths later that year seem to have created a lasting culture of fear that likely contributed to what has happened to Butler.

He didn't work with anthrax. A recognized humanitarian, Butler had dedicated his career to the treatment of horrible infections in the developing world. His work on diarrheal diseases is credited with saving the lives of roughly 2 million children every year, according to the World Health Organization. More recently, Butler had been in Tanzania studying the bacterium that causes plague -- the Black Death of the Middle Ages. The bacterium is endemic around the globe and kills many in Africa each year. But now plague is also on the U.S. government's list of potential bioterror organisms.

In January 2003, a rack of plague samples from Tanzania went missing from Butler's laboratory at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. As required, Butler reported this to authorities at TTU, and they informed local law enforcement and the FBI.

The response from law enforcement was staggering. Sixty agents descended on the campus. CNN covered it live.

Interrogations went on through the night. Butler assisted the federal agents, who eventually concluded that no break-in had occurred. Instead, they suggested that the vials had been properly disposed of, but the disposal hadn't been properly recorded. They promised Butler that if he signed a statement to that effect, the investigation would end and everyone could return to work.

Although he had no recollection of such a disposal, Butler -- without legal representation -- agreed late in the second day to sign a statement that a "misjudgment" had occurred.

He was immediately arrested, and his home overrun by federal agents. He was held without bail for seven days and brought before a federal magistrate, where he was charged with 15 felony counts, including lying to the FBI and multiple counts of smuggling bioterrorism weapons. The agents offered a plea bargain: a huge fine and six months in prison. Convinced he was innocent, Butler rejected the offer. But instead of going to trial on the charges they'd levied against him, agents from the Department of Justice scoured Butler's entire life and piled on dozens of peripheral charges stemming from their investigation of his finances. Unbelievably, Butler found himself facing 69 felony counts that could have brought a total of roughly 470 years in prison, all because of a situation the FBI itself decided never happened.

In December 2003, after a month-long trial, the jury cleared Butler of all serious charges related to bioterrorism.

But to the surprise of many, jurors found him guilty of three minor charges related to clerical errors made during a sample shipment and guilty of some confusing charges of theft related to consulting arrangements he had outside Texas Tech. The judge handed down the lightest possible sentence -- two years in a federal prison. Butler is now a free man again, but life as he and his family knew it is over.

What are the consequences of Tom Butler's prosecution and imprisonment?

Butler's sad case was probably meant to suggest that the U.S. Department of Justice is tough on bioterrorism and to send a warning to anyone determined to harm the United States.

I doubt that will be its legacy.

Instead, it has sent a warning to other dedicated research scientists. The country needs to know how to prepare for bioterrorist attacks and to prevent illness and death from plague and other infectious diseases. But many scientists are reluctant to study these organisms because their best attempts to know and to obey applicable regulations still might land them in prison, might cost them their faculty positions, their licenses to practice medicine, or their right to vote.

I do not believe the Patriot Act or similar laws were intended to snare the Tom Butlers of America. As the culture of fear subsides, the House and Senate should do what they can to make sure that the government's enforcement of legislation meant to protect our country does so without costing us -- and the world -- another Tom Butler.

Agre, a co-recipient of the 2003 Nobel Prize in chemistry, was Medical House officer at University Hospitals of Cleveland from 1975 to 1978. He is a physician and faculty member at Duke University School of Medicine.

Three words: Wen Ho Lee

Originally Posted by Idiot Girl

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Originally Posted by Tom Mazanec

Evidence we be 4T:
http://www.cleveland.com/search/inde...l?nnpla&coll=2

This needs to be shouted from the rooftops. I will post Tom's linked article in full. THIS is one of the reasons why the Unpatriot Act needs to be opposed.

**For Discussion Purposes Only**


The PLAIN DEALER
A career destroyed; a dangerous message sent
Sunday, April 02, 2006
Peter Agre

There is growing recognition that the misapplication of the Patriot Act and related legislation conflicts with personal liberty. But most Americans probably can't name a single U.S. citizen who has been unfairly treated.

I can: Dr. Thomas C. Butler, my former professor at Case Western Reserve School of Medicine and longtime friend.

The horror of Sept. 11, 2001, and the anthrax mailings that caused five deaths later that year seem to have created a lasting culture of fear that likely contributed to what has happened to Butler.

He didn't work with anthrax. A recognized humanitarian, Butler had dedicated his career to the treatment of horrible infections in the developing world. His work on diarrheal diseases is credited with saving the lives of roughly 2 million children every year, according to the World Health Organization. More recently, Butler had been in Tanzania studying the bacterium that causes plague -- the Black Death of the Middle Ages. The bacterium is endemic around the globe and kills many in Africa each year. But now plague is also on the U.S. government's list of potential bioterror organisms.

In January 2003, a rack of plague samples from Tanzania went missing from Butler's laboratory at the Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center. As required, Butler reported this to authorities at TTU, and they informed local law enforcement and the FBI.

The response from law enforcement was staggering. Sixty agents descended on the campus. CNN covered it live.

Interrogations went on through the night. Butler assisted the federal agents, who eventually concluded that no break-in had occurred. Instead, they suggested that the vials had been properly disposed of, but the disposal hadn't been properly recorded. They promised Butler that if he signed a statement to that effect, the investigation would end and everyone could return to work.

Although he had no recollection of such a disposal, Butler -- without legal representation -- agreed late in the second day to sign a statement that a "misjudgment" had occurred.

He was immediately arrested, and his home overrun by federal agents. He was held without bail for seven days and brought before a federal magistrate, where he was charged with 15 felony counts, including lying to the FBI and multiple counts of smuggling bioterrorism weapons. The agents offered a plea bargain: a huge fine and six months in prison. Convinced he was innocent, Butler rejected the offer. But instead of going to trial on the charges they'd levied against him, agents from the Department of Justice scoured Butler's entire life and piled on dozens of peripheral charges stemming from their investigation of his finances. Unbelievably, Butler found himself facing 69 felony counts that could have brought a total of roughly 470 years in prison, all because of a situation the FBI itself decided never happened.

In December 2003, after a month-long trial, the jury cleared Butler of all serious charges related to bioterrorism.

But to the surprise of many, jurors found him guilty of three minor charges related to clerical errors made during a sample shipment and guilty of some confusing charges of theft related to consulting arrangements he had outside Texas Tech. The judge handed down the lightest possible sentence -- two years in a federal prison. Butler is now a free man again, but life as he and his family knew it is over.

What are the consequences of Tom Butler's prosecution and imprisonment?

Butler's sad case was probably meant to suggest that the U.S. Department of Justice is tough on bioterrorism and to send a warning to anyone determined to harm the United States.

I doubt that will be its legacy.

Instead, it has sent a warning to other dedicated research scientists. The country needs to know how to prepare for bioterrorist attacks and to prevent illness and death from plague and other infectious diseases. But many scientists are reluctant to study these organisms because their best attempts to know and to obey applicable regulations still might land them in prison, might cost them their faculty positions, their licenses to practice medicine, or their right to vote.

I do not believe the Patriot Act or similar laws were intended to snare the Tom Butlers of America. As the culture of fear subsides, the House and Senate should do what they can to make sure that the government's enforcement of legislation meant to protect our country does so without costing us -- and the world -- another Tom Butler.

Agre, a co-recipient of the 2003 Nobel Prize in chemistry, was Medical House officer at University Hospitals of Cleveland from 1975 to 1978. He is a physician and faculty member at Duke University School of Medicine.

Three words: Wen Ho Lee

Actually, Wen Ho Lee's case took place a year before the Patriot Act was ever written into law. I can still remember the fiasco regarding that case since I am from near Los Alamos where Lee worked. I do not know whether he was or is guilty or not since I did not follow the specifics of the case at the time though I know a lot of people in his community felt he was not.

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Originally Posted by Lorin

Government = terrorists is the central theme of V for Vendetta too. Is this a new meme emerging? Echos from the collective unconscious? See 9/11 thread.

Remember, Remember
The Eleventh of September
Neocons, Treason, and Plot,
I See No Reason Why
The PNAC and Their Treason
Should Ever Be Forgot.

-- Al CIAda, V for Vendetta On-Line Guestbook

Something about media like V for Vendetta disturbs me for some reason. It seems like the latest and most extravagant of "propatainment" designed to both wow you and make you think. Then again the Wachowskis are practitioners of this sort of thing, as shown in the Matrix trilogy.

I don't disagree with the ideas put up from V, but I fear what will become of those who take in the delivery. It's interesting to hear my friends speak of it, impressed (in both meanings). I could imagine a good portion of those who have watched it did not divorce the medium from the message and will try to find ways to implement the film into real life because "oh, it's so true".

Let the revolution come, but, I hope the inspiration comes from something less heavy-handed and more pure of creation.

Originally Posted by Andy '85

I don't disagree with the ideas put up from V, but I fear what will become of those who take in the delivery. It's interesting to hear my friends speak of it, impressed (in both meanings). I could imagine a good portion of those who have watched it did not divorce the medium from the message and will try to find ways to implement the film into real life because "oh, it's so true".

Thus far I haven't noted people wearing black plus a Guy Fawkes mask wandering around Washington DC. Assuming one leaves off the knives, would this not be an expression of free speech? :wink:

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Thus far I haven't noted people wearing black plus a Guy Fawkes mask wandering around Washington DC. Assuming one leaves off the knives, would this not be an expression of free speech? :wink:

It's all fine and good until someone dies or gets seriously injured. :twisted:

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

Originally Posted by mandelbrot5

Has anyone been watching 24, where the Dept. of Homeland Security are the bad guys, apparently helping the POTUS in a plot to overthrow the Constitution and bring on martial law? The plot developments of the last few episodes have been rather eyebrow-raising to me. I don't recall in the past where a TV show would be casting a government agency in such a sinister light. The X-Files was Sci-fi and pretty vague about its conspiracies, 24 has DHS actively inhibiting the search for terrorists and threatening the legitimate agency who is hunting down the terrorists. Also, the people in DHS are slime, really sinister upper-level DHS personnel.

That plot twist was quite an eye-opener, wasn't it? I haven't quite put all the pieces together. The POTUS has been portrayed to this point as a bumbling idiot, and the show was leading us to believe that the Veep (brilliantly played to this point by Ray Wise) was the big heavy behind the terrorist plot.

As for the DHS folks, I'd keep an eye on Karen Hayes (the blond woman). I'm not sure she's in on the coup. That flunky of hers is, though.

The plot twist is interesting. I hope they manage to pull it off believably. Through the early part of the season, POTUS was shown as indecisive, unable to make difficult terrorist related decisions. This was acted well. Now we find out he is masterminding terror?

As I understand it, the major plot lines of 24 are not locked in firm at season start. The writers ad-lib, and have been known to take the show in directions they did not anticipate from the beginning. I just hope the current twist can be kept believable in terms of character and motivation.

But, yes, 24 is unusual this season in portraying a conspiracy worthy of the conspiracy theories that tend to show up at the start of many major US wars. Who fired the first shot at Lexington Green? Were the supply boats sent by Lincoln to Fort Sumpter intended to provoke the bombardment? What caused the USS Maine explosion? Given the pre Pearl Harbor decrypts of Japanese diplomatic traffic, is it reasonable to believe that the lack of warning to Pearl was a mistake?

Hopefully, 24 closes out their season well.

I haven't watched 24 for a couple of years and now I'm sorry I'm missing this. But isn't it rather extraordinary that this show is running on Fox?

David K '47

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Something about media like V for Vendetta disturbs me for some reason. It seems like the latest and most extravagant of "propatainment" designed to both wow you and make you think. Then again the Wachowskis are practitioners of this sort of thing, as shown in the Matrix trilogy . . .

. . . Let the revolution come, but, I hope the inspiration comes from something less heavy-handed and more pure of creation.

I'm confused about the use of "propatainment". You see V as propaganda?

Also, how was the movie of polluted creation?