Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

I think you'll find more agreement than is apparent just from the responses. Some of us have slipped back into lurk mode, and post rarely. To be honest, I only tend to post when I have a difference spin on things. Not the best trait, but then, I'm a Boomer.

This has been true with me too. There's just not much to add.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

That in itself is rather scary, Dave. The last time this board was so dull and repetitive was in August 2001.

H-m-m-m-m. Not every discussion is a paean to uniformity. Just look at the amount of bile split in the Draft thread. Of course, the dispute there was between factions that are normally in full agreement. With the exception of Marc, most of the BushCo wing has gone into lurk, or departed entirely. You're right. This has become a lot of preaching to the choir and Kumbayah singing.

... but then there's our Autumnatic Burn-Out...

Originally Posted by wvally

[*] Shut down the Federal Reserve system[*] Return America's gold to Fort Knox and have it audited[*] Have Congress and the IRS, in a public forum, reveal the law that requires Americans to pay a direct, unapportioned tax on their labor.

It never ceases to amaze me how goldbugs and anti-income tax advocates never seek to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment or the Internal Revenue Code, but instead choose to steadfastly, repeatedly, and stubbornly (in the face of massive public opposition and numerous findings against them) deny the legitimacy of the laws they disagree with.

the Supreme court has held twice that the income tax is unconstitutional.

That's why they had to amend the Constitution. Since it seems to be too much to ask you to join the twenty-first century, could you at least try getting up to speed on the twentieth?

As for the Constitution Party, my opinion can be summed up in two words: Roy Moore.

Originally Posted by catfishncod

It never ceases to amaze me how goldbugs and anti-income tax advocates never seek to repeal the Sixteenth Amendment or the Internal Revenue Code, but instead choose to steadfastly, repeatedly, and stubbornly (in the face of massive public opposition and numerous findings against them) deny the legitimacy of the laws they disagree with.



That's why they had to amend the Constitution. Since it seems to be too much to ask you to join the twenty-first century, could you at least try getting up to speed on the twentieth?

As for the Constitution Party, my opinion can be summed up in two words: Roy Moore.

People against the income tax never seek to repeal the Internal Revenue Code??? I support that idea, and I know there are many organizations devoted to that cause. I don't think the 16th amendment was properly ratified, but I would still support repealing it.

As for the Constitution Party, I'm not a member. I'm not a member of any political party. There are people in all the parties that I disagree with. But I applaud Ron Paul for taking a stand outside of the two-party system.

Originally Posted by wvally

Ron Paul (the Constitution Party Rep out of Texas) is the only one who will go on record to talk about it.

Ron Paul is a House Republican representing the 14th District of Texas. He has never had any affiliation with the Constitution Party, as far as I know.

Catfishncod & Mustang...

I have deleted the post that you were responding to, because I can now see that the source of my information was inaccurate. I should have done more investigating before repeating information from a web-based source.

I have lurked on this forum for almost two years, and have appreciated your commentaries.

Frankly, I don't know what to believe anymore. There is so much contradictory information out there. I've been a Democrat, I've been a Republican, I've felt deep patriotism, I've felt deep cynicism. I've been a go-getter, I've fled civilization, and I've grudgingly come back. I see a conspiracy around every corner...

I find myself, like others here, looking forward to a crisis...because I'm so sick of the political stagnation. I think I'm desperately hoping the elites will be knocked down...even though a crisis will probably hurt me and my family harder than any "elites" that I have a grudge against. I guess I'm really just conforming to the stereotypical Xer alienation.

Originally Posted by wvally

Catfishncod & Mustang...


I find myself, like others here, looking forward to a crisis...because I'm so sick of the political stagnation. I think I'm desperately hoping the elites will be knocked down...even though a crisis will probably hurt me and my family harder than any "elites" that I have a grudge against. I guess I'm really just conforming to the stereotypical Xer alienation.

Oh, I don't know about that. At the dawn of the last 4T, just who were all those people jumping out of Manhattan skyscrapers, when they woke up one morning to find their erstwhile millions reduced to pennies overnight? Not the poor and middle-class, certainly.

That's the thing about being rich... when the sky finally cracks you have much, much further to fall... and far, far higher to climb back after you do.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Oh, I don't know about that. At the dawn of the last 4T, just who were all those people jumping out of Manhattan skyscrapers, when they woke up one morning to find their erstwhile millions reduced to pennies overnight? Not the poor and middle-class, certainly.

Actually, I'll bet a good number of them were middle-class Nomads. They had spent their lives scratching and scrambling, managed to get together enough -- probably having leveraged themselves to the hilt to do it -- and finally managed get a piece of the big market that everyone was getting rich off, only to see it all piss itself away, and to be back to where they had started -- or worse, since the opportunities to scratch and scramble weren't even so good anymore. People weren't jumpin because they were poor -- they were jumping because they were destroyed.
Think of the nomads who a year ago bought into a 'hot' property market on an interest-only loan (because, everyone knows, real estate is the only guaranteed investment out there).
Window diving is such a Nomad thing, anyway.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Oh, I don't know about that. At the dawn of the last 4T, just who were all those people jumping out of Manhattan skyscrapers, when they woke up one morning to find their erstwhile millions reduced to pennies overnight? Not the poor and middle-class, certainly.

That's the thing about being rich... when the sky finally cracks you have much, much further to fall... and far, far higher to climb back after you do.

Not to nit-pick, but isn't the "jump of of windows" story an urban legend?

Originally Posted by wvally

I find myself, like others here, looking forward to a crisis...because I'm so sick of the political stagnation. I think I'm desperately hoping the elites will be knocked down...even though a crisis will probably hurt me and my family harder than any "elites" that I have a grudge against. I guess I'm really just conforming to the stereotypical Xer alienation.

Hah! Be careful what you wish for! 4Ts aren't pretty.

I don't believe that most people who don't suffer from severe depression are suicide prone. However, a study by TIME magazine several years ago did indicate that up to 40 percent of the population had conemplated it at least once in their lives. It has never been proven that money and happiness are directly proportional; it has often been suggested that they may be at least somewhat inversely proportional; that the highest suicide rate is among the wealthy. If this is the case, maybe it is because they have enough money to be able to get blasted on designer drugs or alcoholic beverage that get them depressed.

For most of the rest of society, there has been exhibited a strong will that has helped them to take the right actions during times of mass layoffs and declining job security. My own position was eliminated in February after seven years, and I have my resume in lots of places, but currently am only working part-time, which has given me more time to post here, but only if I have something good to reply to.

Currently many have been especially proactive on things concerning their home and personal security. It is good to use your initiative, but be wary of any deal that seems too good to be true, because it probably is. Predatory lenders have been pitching to the marginalized, less credit worthy. A touch of glamour is in the air when they get enticed by some of these loans they are offering, which has led the gullible astray when dealing with a major asset. This has resulted in an explosion of home foreclosures. While these predatory practices are now being scrutinized, I wonder how much is really going to happen.

Originally Posted by wvally

I think I'm desperately hoping the elites will be knocked down...even though a crisis will probably hurt me and my family harder than any "elites" that I have a grudge against. I guess I'm really just conforming to the stereotypical Xer alienation.

Who gives a shit about the elites? I just don't want to get screwed. Many of those who are elites screwed ppl. But wishing harm on "the elites" sounds like "the working class" "the jews" the blacks" the whites"

Doesn't it?

Originally Posted by antichrist

Who gives a shit about the elites? I just don't want to get screwed. Many of those who are elites screwed ppl. But wishing harm on "the elites" sounds like "the working class" "the jews" the blacks" the whites"

Doesn't it?

Secularly speaking, I see nothing wrong with wishing harm on those who either wish me/us harm, or have a callous indifference to how their actions harm me/us. Al Qaeda fits the first description. Many in the present day upper class of our own nation fit the second description. I'm just sayin'.

However, there is that pesky thing about turning "cheeks" and "loving thy enemy". Then there's "an eye for an eye making the whole world blind".

I am torn between the two approaches to life.

Originally Posted by Zarathustra

Secularly speaking, I see nothing wrong with wishing harm on those who either wish me/us harm, or have a callous indifference to how their actions harm me/us. Al Qaeda fits the first description. Many in the present day upper class of our own nation fit the second description. I'm just sayin'.

However, there is that pesky thing about turning "cheeks" and "loving thy enemy". Then there's "an eye for an eye making the whole world blind".

I am torn between the two approaches to life.

True enough that, as our converging life paths would illustrate.

What if we pass each other at midlife and you end up an old fart hippie? The implications are frightening.

That said, it doesn't break my heart seeing the subprime companies go under. Those guys really were predators preying on ppl's dreams. And credit card companies. And Enron.

And it wouldn't hurt GM to focus on building decent cars rather than loans. Nor Sears to sell decent hardware.

Man, it could truly be a frightening unwinding.

And Hey! Bet you're not sorry you sold your house now.

Originally Posted by antichrist

True enough that, as our converging life paths would illustrate.

What if we pass each other at midlife and you end up an old fart hippie? The implications are frightening.

Should I dig up my old copy of Robert Welch's Blue Book of the John Birch Society for you?

Originally Posted by antichrist

That said, it doesn't break my heart seeing the subprime companies go under. Those guys really were predators preying on ppl's dreams. And credit card companies. And Enron.

F*ck 'em. Oh, er, I mean, forgive them.

Originally Posted by antichrist

And it wouldn't hurt GM to focus on building decent cars rather than loans. Nor Sears to sell decent hardware.

Man, it could truly be a frightening unwinding.

Yep. *Heavy Uncomfortable Sigh*

Originally Posted by antichrist

And Hey! Bet you're not sorry you sold your house now.

Still sold too early. As Rani the Xer of Evil Witch said, I was a "fool". But there are a lot of people who should sell NOW (if not already), but won't and will in turn be fools as well on the other end.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

The national suicide rate did creep up slightly during the worst periods of the Great Depression, but there's no indication that it hit the rich any harder than any other segment of society. Given that the conventional wisdom in financial circles at the time was that the Crash was part of a temporary downturn that would eventually right itself, it's hard to imagine a wave of suicides among the rich. On top of that, I think a fair argument can be made that Wall Street's speculators and financiers (especially the "nouveau riche" who built their fortunes during the Boom) were less likely to kill themselves, as the traits that made them successful in the first place (optimism, a high degree of motivation, and a marked inclination toward thinking their way out of dilemmas) would have made it less likely for them to kill themselves.

Excellent insight, and this the key point: nobody thought on Black Tuesday that it was the beginning of the Great Depression. By mid-1930, everybody was talking up the market. It took a couple of years before it really sunk in.

We have another couple years of subprime failures, as it extends up into the Alt-A and then prime, before people finally realize what a mess we're in.

And Scandinavia, which has or had been known for it decades ago. I'm wondering if we're looking at the effect of living a bit too far North for some peoples' comfort? Not enough light in the winter, too much in summer, cabin fever in the rural areas, etc.

PAt, happy in the desert until the temperature gets above 80. Usually in late April.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

And Scandinavia, which has or had been known for it decades ago. I'm wondering if we're looking at the effect of living a bit too far North for some peoples' comfort? Not enough light in the winter, too much in summer, cabin fever in the rural areas, etc.

PAt, happy in the desert until the temperature gets above 80. Usually in late April.

I've heard right-wing morons blaming Scandinavia's high suicide rates on their welfare states.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

(Pssst! Hey, The Wonkette, over here! Now, don't spread this around or anything, but if you haven't noticed, there are a lot of apocalypse junkies in these parts, and there have been for years. They look forward to the end of the world as we know it, mostly 'cause they're dissatisfied with their lives. The personal really is the political -- just not in the way the '60s activists believed.)

I bet the majority of the apocalypse junkies are Boomers who have been awaiting the Rapture (for the fundamentalists) or the collapse of civilization (the eco-luddites) since the 60's

Originally Posted by Finch

Excellent insight, and this the key point: nobody thought on Black Tuesday that it was the beginning of the Great Depression. By mid-1930, everybody was talking up the market. It took a couple of years before it really sunk in.

It's my feeling that decades from now we look upon August 29th, 2005, "The Day the Levees Broke", as the point a great inflection occurred.

From 9/11 to Katrina, we lived in the Phony Fourth, Dubya's Golden Era, the reign of Anti-Camelot. From that point the trajectory changed, coincidentally and/or causally, depending upon the issue. Bush's popularity plummeted. What could have been just another periodic, short-lived drop in support for the Iraq venture turned into a full-blown denunciation of the war. The housing market peaked and started dropping in the months immediately ensuing. Overall public support for the GOP and it's primary agenda has collapsed since The Day. Public acceptance of the theory of anthropogenic global warming started to grow steadily. And more.

In the months after Katrina, and even for the most part now, few see The Day as any kind of large-scale threshold or turning point. Saecularly it's becoming clearer and clearer to me that it was just that. And in time, with enough distance, future historians may as well.

Originally Posted by Odin

I've heard right-wing morons blaming Scandinavia's high suicide rates on their welfare states.

From what I've read, the American city with the highest suicide rate is... Seattle.

Psychiatrists out here don't blame the city's liberal politics, but rather its liberal rain and incessant winter overcast.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

In the world of apocalypse-mongering, there's definitely a flavor for everyone.

But not to worry. With the First Turning, the House of Stuart will be restored, and all will be well.

Originally Posted by Semo '75

Nah. Go back and read the posts from around the time of the '04 elections, and you'll see predictions of widespread revolutions if the Republicans won, and if the Democrats won. According to some, the messy collapse of America was right around the corner after Katrina -- and they reveled in the possibility. (I believed we were on the brink of a severe economic downturn at the time, although it should be noted that I was neither looking forward to it, nor gloating about it.) And, of course, you have the usual suspects: peak-oilers, global warming advocates, and in one case, one particular poster who looks forward the an anarchist revolution that will never come.

In the world of apocalypse-mongering, there's definitely a flavor for everyone.

Yeah, your attempt at subtlety is underwhelming. For the record, I don't look forward to an anarchist revolution. Such a thing would be a contradiction in terms. What I look forward to is the inevitable supersession of this decrepit civilization by something unprecedented. Hopefully that something will be a technically-sophisticated, mutualistic anarchy. Whatever it eventually is, however, it will not come about by any deliberate program of transformation, but by a (probably punctuated) evolutionary process. I don't even expect to live to see it, though I might witness the first chaotic years of the transition. That will be torture -- not knowing how it turns out -- but I'll gladly swallow the discomfort if it means the future of the race has once more become unbounded.

In response to the comment I posted on suicide and wealth, or lack of, I believe more poor people die slow deaths from drugs, alcohol and cigarettes, but they cannot afford the "designer drugs." Crack, for example, is a cocaine derivative that is a lot cheaper, kind of the drug version of some of the cheap wines that you will find in poverty-stricken neighborhoods.

One poster also commented about New Jersey and affluence. I lived there for three years, and believe me there are a lot of very depressed areas in that state, including the majority of its principal city, Newark. And the state capitol of Trenton has some areas that could rival those in our nation's capital for poverty and urban pathos. Same can be said for Camden, Elizabeth and Patterson.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

But not to worry. With the First Turning, the House of Stuart will be restored, and all will be well.

Okay! Pass the popcorn ... and the remote.