Originally Posted by Skabungus

~Recent bust of terror cell in GDR...

The nitpicker in me just can't resist. The GDR (or DDR) has been in the grave, late and mostly unlamented, these seventeen years. The one and only German government is the FRG or BRD -- Federal Republic of Germany / Bundesrepublik Deutschland, wherein Andrea Merkel reigns as the first to be called die Kanzler.

--C&C, who knew those German classes would be useful one day...

Originally Posted by sean '90

Revolutions are evil as they go against the order as set down by God.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Of course, I recently heard said that Queen Elizabeth, after observing too long the regime of Bush 43, has announced she is revoking the Declaration of Independence for the sake of her own safety and happiness...

Originally Posted by catfishncod

The nitpicker in me just can't resist. The GDR (or DDR) has been in the grave, late and mostly unlamented, these seventeen years. The one and only German government is the FRG or BRD -- Federal Republic of Germany / Bundesrepublik Deutschland, wherein Andrea Merkel reigns as the first to be called die Kanzler.

--C&C, who knew those German classes would be useful one day...

Point taken. It's a slip from my Model United Nations Days. I always liked representing the GDR better. I get them switched around some times because, well, they're all, well, Germans! And yes, I know the GDR is long gone. I really regret not going over when the wall was coming down. Some of my friends (first gen Germans living here) went back and invited me along. I didn't have the plane fare and was in the midst of a grad statistics class so I skipped one of the biggest parties of the century. *SIGH*

Your nitpickery is much appreciated, dispite the shame it brings.

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Of course, I recently heard said that Queen Elizabeth, after observing too long the regime of Bush 43, has announced she is revoking the Declaration of Independence for the sake of her own safety and happiness...

The Declaration of Independence isn't a very Catholic document, it's more Deist. Still more accceptable than the evil French Revolution, though, but I'm not entirely sure of God's opinion. If that's what Her Majesty the Queen is gonna do, then I'm in ful agreement. The Bush administration, under the hand of the immoral, Machiavellian Darth Cheney, has made this country a very big threat to true constitutional liberalism and liberal democracy the world around.

Originally Posted by sean '90

Revolutions are evil as they go against the order as set down by God.

If democracy is the order set down by God then the revolutionaries are fulfilling God's will.

Originally Posted by Odin

If democracy is the order set down by God then the revolutionaries are fulfilling God's will.

And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.

Originally Posted by sean '90

And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.

How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.

Originally Posted by sean '90
And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.

Originally Posted by Dave 89

How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.

Why is this argument even happening???

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Why is this argument even happening???

My hypothesis is that the other posters are testing Sean to see if he's a troll or a crank.

Originally Posted by The Pervert

My hypothesis is that the other posters are testing Sean to see if he's a troll or a crank.

DING DING DING DING! We have a winnner!

Originally Posted by Dave 89

How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.

There is a specific passage in the New Testament where Christians are told to 'fear God, honor the King'. One cannot worship them, as that would be heresy, but a good Christian is obligated to obey the current monarch unless they tell you to do something contrary to the law of God.

Originally Posted by sean '90

There is a specific passage in the New Testament where Christians are told to 'fear God, honor the King'. One cannot worship them, as that would be heresy, but a good Christian is obligated to obey the current monarch unless they tell you to do something contrary to the law of God.

But in those days they HAD a king. Later they were told to obey the laws of the Roman Empire, which was still, theoretically, "The Senate and the People of Rome."

Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.

Originally Posted by Dave 89

How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.

Yeah, according to the wise man Samuel, who proclaimed:

The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.

"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the [a] procedure of the king who will reign over them."

So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.

He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.

"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."

Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."

So, yes, not only shall we worship kings and queens, we shall love it when they beat and torture us and our kids.

Virgil K. Saari and his little twit numbskull Sean would be in seventh heaven with another bloody Mary in charge.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.

Sometimes I wonder if all the little Biblical tidbits regarding "slavery" were deliberately mistranslated from the original document... in order to justify then-current beliefs and practices. If we substitute, let's say, "Employees, follow your employer's instructions for one day you may be HIS boss" and "Employers, be fair to your employees for at the end of the day you answer to God"... and everything sort of works out OK.

Likewise the "King" to be hailed could easily be interpreted as "President", "Mayor" or head of the PTA... regarding the intent.

The Bible was written, translated, and re-translated in terms that people of its historical times could then understand. Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang. When you consider how difficult it is for us, even today, to wrap our minds around the concept of "billions of years", describing the world as having been created in six days makes perfect sense.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.

Please look and the history of Popes who condemned the slave trade. Look at the Wikipedia articles on the Congress of Vienna and the end of the Brazilian monarchy, those should direct you to said Popes.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Sometimes I wonder if all the little Biblical tidbits regarding "slavery" were deliberately mistranslated from the original document... in order to justify then-current beliefs and practices. If we substitute, let's say, "Employees, follow your employer's instructions for one day you may be HIS boss" and "Employers, be fair to your employees for at the end of the day you answer to God"... and everything sort of works out OK.

Likewise the "King" to be hailed could easily be interpreted as "President", "Mayor" or head of the PTA... regarding the intent.

The Bible was written, translated, and re-translated in terms that people of its historical times could then understand. Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang. When you consider how difficult it is for us, even today, to wrap our minds around the concept of "billions of years", describing the world as having been created in six days makes perfect sense.

In your second paragraph, you are right in that Jesus commanded us to obey the authorities that are placed over us. The exceptions are if that authority is making it hard, if not impossible, to practice the Faith, or if it is an authority that has just overthrown a Godly-sanctioned regime (generally a monarchy).

*Groan*

It's really a shame that the board has to be energized in this fashion.

Originally Posted by MichaelEaston

*Groan*

It's really a shame that the board has to be energized in this fashion.

Welcome to the internet, and geekdom.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

But in those days they HAD a king. Later they were told to obey the laws of the Roman Empire, which was still, theoretically, "The Senate and the People of Rome."

SPQR=US for all too many around the world, nowadays.

Most Americans need to spend at least six months overseas, as part of thier education. It's like a spouse being confronted with the tape recording of the spouse's snoring...

Originally Posted by sean '90

Please look and the history of Popes who condemned the slave trade. Look at the Wikipedia articles on the Congress of Vienna and the end of the Brazilian monarchy, those should direct you to said Popes.

Sean, many of those who post on these boards aren't Christian, and of those who are, most aren't Catholic, so your appeals to the New Testament and the Pope are falling on deaf ears.

Shalom.

Originally Posted by Pink Splice

SPQR=US for all too many around the world, nowadays.

Most Americans need to spend at least six months overseas, as part of thier education. It's like a spouse being confronted with the tape recording of the spouse's snoring...

Agreed, but not in tourist spots because people in the service industry will make you feel loved (or at least the ones in the resort I went to did.) I do understand it's their livelihood.

Oh, yes, we certainly have slipped into the niche once occupied by Rome. The question is -

Is Bush running for Caesar Augustus? (no! Say it isn't SO!) or is he just one of the idiotic Optimates who were trying to organize a coup d'etat just before the Principiate got rolling and proved themselves unable to organize a barroom brawl? (Marcus Junius Brutus as a leader, I ASK you! Aha - there's Dubya's counterpart.)

And on the topic of this forum: Antony was such a classic Nomad, and Octavian, such a classic Civic.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Agreed, but not in tourist spots because people in the service industry will make you feel loved (or at least the ones in the resort I went to did.) I do understand it's their livelihood.

Oh, yes, we certainly have slipped into the niche once occupied by Rome. The question is -

Is Bush running for Caesar Augustus? (no! Say it isn't SO!) or is he just one of the idiotic Optimates who were trying to organize a coup d'etat just before the Principiate got rolling and proved themselves unable to organize a barroom brawl? (Marcus Junius Brutus as a leader, I ASK you! Aha - there's Dubya's counterpart.)

And on the topic of this forum: Antony was such a classic Nomad, and Octavian, such a classic Civic.

Have you seen the series 'Rome'? It's really neat! I definately agree with that last quote, btw.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang.

No, it is just another creation myth with no basis in fact. The "Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang" is special pleading.

Originally Posted by Odin

No, it is just another creation myth with no basis in fact. The "Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang" is special pleading.

No, no, no... {sigh}

I'm not one of those "creationists" trying to sneak the Bible into classrooms under the guise of science. I'm highlighting out how silly they are, by pointing out that there is no inherent conflict between the Bible, or at least the Creation story, and hard science that does have a basis in fact.... if one can put aside the whole literal interpretation thing. I'm not "special pleading" for anything.

Geez .