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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 464







Post#11576 at 09-08-2007 12:08 AM by catfishncod [at The People's Republic of Cambridge & Possum Town, MS joined Apr 2005 #posts 984]
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Quote Originally Posted by Skabungus View Post
~Recent bust of terror cell in GDR...
The nitpicker in me just can't resist. The GDR (or DDR) has been in the grave, late and mostly unlamented, these seventeen years. The one and only German government is the FRG or BRD -- Federal Republic of Germany / Bundesrepublik Deutschland, wherein Andrea Merkel reigns as the first to be called die Kanzler.

--C&C, who knew those German classes would be useful one day...
'81, 30/70 X/Millie, trying to live in both Red and Blue America... "Catfish 'n Cod"







Post#11577 at 09-08-2007 01:49 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Revolutions are evil as they go against the order as set down by God.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Of course, I recently heard said that Queen Elizabeth, after observing too long the regime of Bush 43, has announced she is revoking the Declaration of Independence for the sake of her own safety and happiness...







Post#11578 at 09-08-2007 09:07 AM by Skabungus [at West Michigan joined Jun 2007 #posts 1,027]
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Quote Originally Posted by catfishncod View Post
The nitpicker in me just can't resist. The GDR (or DDR) has been in the grave, late and mostly unlamented, these seventeen years. The one and only German government is the FRG or BRD -- Federal Republic of Germany / Bundesrepublik Deutschland, wherein Andrea Merkel reigns as the first to be called die Kanzler.

--C&C, who knew those German classes would be useful one day...
Point taken. It's a slip from my Model United Nations Days. I always liked representing the GDR better. I get them switched around some times because, well, they're all, well, Germans! And yes, I know the GDR is long gone. I really regret not going over when the wall was coming down. Some of my friends (first gen Germans living here) went back and invited me along. I didn't have the plane fare and was in the midst of a grad statistics class so I skipped one of the biggest parties of the century. *SIGH*

Your nitpickery is much appreciated, dispite the shame it brings.







Post#11579 at 09-08-2007 12:36 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Of course, I recently heard said that Queen Elizabeth, after observing too long the regime of Bush 43, has announced she is revoking the Declaration of Independence for the sake of her own safety and happiness...
The Declaration of Independence isn't a very Catholic document, it's more Deist. Still more accceptable than the evil French Revolution, though, but I'm not entirely sure of God's opinion. If that's what Her Majesty the Queen is gonna do, then I'm in ful agreement. The Bush administration, under the hand of the immoral, Machiavellian Darth Cheney, has made this country a very big threat to true constitutional liberalism and liberal democracy the world around.







Post#11580 at 09-08-2007 04:17 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Revolutions are evil as they go against the order as set down by God.
If democracy is the order set down by God then the revolutionaries are fulfilling God's will.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11581 at 09-08-2007 05:19 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
If democracy is the order set down by God then the revolutionaries are fulfilling God's will.
And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.







Post#11582 at 09-08-2007 08:21 PM by Dave 89 [at joined Aug 2007 #posts 440]
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Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.
How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.







Post#11583 at 09-08-2007 08:23 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Originally Posted by sean '90
And the order set down by God is a monarchy. So there.

Quote Originally Posted by Dave 89 View Post
How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.
Why is this argument even happening???
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#11584 at 09-08-2007 08:34 PM by The Pervert [at A D&D Character sheet joined Jan 2002 #posts 1,169]
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Lightbulb

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Why is this argument even happening???
My hypothesis is that the other posters are testing Sean to see if he's a troll or a crank.
Your local general nuisance
"I am not an alter ego. I am an unaltered id!"







Post#11585 at 09-08-2007 09:38 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Pervert View Post
My hypothesis is that the other posters are testing Sean to see if he's a troll or a crank.
DING DING DING DING! We have a winnner!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11586 at 09-08-2007 10:36 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by Dave 89 View Post
How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.
There is a specific passage in the New Testament where Christians are told to 'fear God, honor the King'. One cannot worship them, as that would be heresy, but a good Christian is obligated to obey the current monarch unless they tell you to do something contrary to the law of God.







Post#11587 at 09-08-2007 11:16 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
There is a specific passage in the New Testament where Christians are told to 'fear God, honor the King'. One cannot worship them, as that would be heresy, but a good Christian is obligated to obey the current monarch unless they tell you to do something contrary to the law of God.
But in those days they HAD a king. Later they were told to obey the laws of the Roman Empire, which was still, theoretically, "The Senate and the People of Rome."
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#11588 at 09-08-2007 11:48 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#11589 at 09-08-2007 11:58 PM by zilch [at joined Nov 2001 #posts 3,491]
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Cool Monarchists Unite!

Quote Originally Posted by Dave 89 View Post
How are you so sure? Does the bible say, we shall worship all the kings and queens.
Yeah, according to the wise man Samuel, who proclaimed:
The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

"Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day--in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods--so they are doing to you also.

"Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the [a] procedure of the king who will reign over them."

So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king.

He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.

"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."

Nevertheless, the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel, and they said, "No, but there shall be a king over us, that we also may be like all the nations, that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."
So, yes, not only shall we worship kings and queens, we shall love it when they beat and torture us and our kids.

Virgil K. Saari and his little twit numbskull Sean would be in seventh heaven with another bloody Mary in charge.







Post#11590 at 09-09-2007 12:13 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.
Sometimes I wonder if all the little Biblical tidbits regarding "slavery" were deliberately mistranslated from the original document... in order to justify then-current beliefs and practices. If we substitute, let's say, "Employees, follow your employer's instructions for one day you may be HIS boss" and "Employers, be fair to your employees for at the end of the day you answer to God"... and everything sort of works out OK.

Likewise the "King" to be hailed could easily be interpreted as "President", "Mayor" or head of the PTA... regarding the intent.

The Bible was written, translated, and re-translated in terms that people of its historical times could then understand. Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang. When you consider how difficult it is for us, even today, to wrap our minds around the concept of "billions of years", describing the world as having been created in six days makes perfect sense.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#11591 at 09-09-2007 12:26 AM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Sean - it also occurred to me that if you take "Fear God - honor the King" as an argument for monarchy being divinely instituted, you must also, therefore, believe that slavery is also divinely instituted, because the scriptures also say "Slaves, obey your masters." In fact that argument has been extensively used in history to prove that very point.
Please look and the history of Popes who condemned the slave trade. Look at the Wikipedia articles on the Congress of Vienna and the end of the Brazilian monarchy, those should direct you to said Popes.







Post#11592 at 09-09-2007 12:31 AM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Sometimes I wonder if all the little Biblical tidbits regarding "slavery" were deliberately mistranslated from the original document... in order to justify then-current beliefs and practices. If we substitute, let's say, "Employees, follow your employer's instructions for one day you may be HIS boss" and "Employers, be fair to your employees for at the end of the day you answer to God"... and everything sort of works out OK.

Likewise the "King" to be hailed could easily be interpreted as "President", "Mayor" or head of the PTA... regarding the intent.

The Bible was written, translated, and re-translated in terms that people of its historical times could then understand. Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang. When you consider how difficult it is for us, even today, to wrap our minds around the concept of "billions of years", describing the world as having been created in six days makes perfect sense.
In your second paragraph, you are right in that Jesus commanded us to obey the authorities that are placed over us. The exceptions are if that authority is making it hard, if not impossible, to practice the Faith, or if it is an authority that has just overthrown a Godly-sanctioned regime (generally a monarchy).







Post#11593 at 09-09-2007 12:57 AM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
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*Groan*

It's really a shame that the board has to be energized in this fashion.
Last edited by Matt1989; 09-09-2007 at 01:58 AM.







Post#11594 at 09-09-2007 02:50 AM by Pink Splice [at St. Louis MO (They Built An Entire Country Around Us) joined Apr 2005 #posts 5,439]
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Quote Originally Posted by MichaelEaston View Post
*Groan*

It's really a shame that the board has to be energized in this fashion.
Welcome to the internet, and geekdom.







Post#11595 at 09-09-2007 02:55 AM by Pink Splice [at St. Louis MO (They Built An Entire Country Around Us) joined Apr 2005 #posts 5,439]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
But in those days they HAD a king. Later they were told to obey the laws of the Roman Empire, which was still, theoretically, "The Senate and the People of Rome."
SPQR=US for all too many around the world, nowadays.

Most Americans need to spend at least six months overseas, as part of thier education. It's like a spouse being confronted with the tape recording of the spouse's snoring...







Post#11596 at 09-09-2007 08:41 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Please look and the history of Popes who condemned the slave trade. Look at the Wikipedia articles on the Congress of Vienna and the end of the Brazilian monarchy, those should direct you to said Popes.
Sean, many of those who post on these boards aren't Christian, and of those who are, most aren't Catholic, so your appeals to the New Testament and the Pope are falling on deaf ears.

Shalom.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#11597 at 09-09-2007 09:33 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by Pink Splice View Post
SPQR=US for all too many around the world, nowadays.

Most Americans need to spend at least six months overseas, as part of thier education. It's like a spouse being confronted with the tape recording of the spouse's snoring...
Agreed, but not in tourist spots because people in the service industry will make you feel loved (or at least the ones in the resort I went to did.) I do understand it's their livelihood.

Oh, yes, we certainly have slipped into the niche once occupied by Rome. The question is -

Is Bush running for Caesar Augustus? (no! Say it isn't SO!) or is he just one of the idiotic Optimates who were trying to organize a coup d'etat just before the Principiate got rolling and proved themselves unable to organize a barroom brawl? (Marcus Junius Brutus as a leader, I ASK you! Aha - there's Dubya's counterpart.)

And on the topic of this forum: Antony was such a classic Nomad, and Octavian, such a classic Civic.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#11598 at 09-09-2007 01:16 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Agreed, but not in tourist spots because people in the service industry will make you feel loved (or at least the ones in the resort I went to did.) I do understand it's their livelihood.

Oh, yes, we certainly have slipped into the niche once occupied by Rome. The question is -

Is Bush running for Caesar Augustus? (no! Say it isn't SO!) or is he just one of the idiotic Optimates who were trying to organize a coup d'etat just before the Principiate got rolling and proved themselves unable to organize a barroom brawl? (Marcus Junius Brutus as a leader, I ASK you! Aha - there's Dubya's counterpart.)

And on the topic of this forum: Antony was such a classic Nomad, and Octavian, such a classic Civic.
Have you seen the series 'Rome'? It's really neat! I definately agree with that last quote, btw.







Post#11599 at 09-09-2007 03:18 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
Consider that story of Creation as written in Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang.
No, it is just another creation myth with no basis in fact. The "Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang" is special pleading.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#11600 at 09-09-2007 04:29 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
No, it is just another creation myth with no basis in fact. The "Genesis is essentially a time-lapse version of the Big Bang" is special pleading.
No, no, no... {sigh}

I'm not one of those "creationists" trying to sneak the Bible into classrooms under the guise of science. I'm highlighting out how silly they are, by pointing out that there is no inherent conflict between the Bible, or at least the Creation story, and hard science that does have a basis in fact.... if one can put aside the whole literal interpretation thing. I'm not "special pleading" for anything.

Geez .
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
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