Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Odin: stick to your guns. You had it right - at least the attribution is correct. No one has that one in writing, as far as I know, but it definitely sounds like something Einstein would have said.

Thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

(Bush sucks!). . .is a right wing mantra designed to discredit any criticism of Bush, the worst president we have ever had, in advance. It's pathetic.

Of course. That's not to say that a reasonable person can defend his foibles... that mantra suggests that all that is necessary to undo the damage is to have anyone else. I can think of at least one scenario in which the retirement of Dubya in January 2009 solves absolutely nothing; that we get someone with the same agenda but more eloquence, more vigor, and more competence. You can bet the Bill of Rights that the effort to get such a successor is well underway. In fact, someone more cunning might find more means with which to either destroy the Bill of Rights or gut it while turning the American political heritage into a sham.

As a much too gentler poster has been pointing out, every "reason" for invading Iraq--every nasty situation you were worried about--is much worse now. That includes WMD, since countries we have put on the enemies list (like Iran) have an extra incentive to get nukes, now that we have implemented the Bush doctrine and threaten to do so again.

Even worse -- we as a nation are losing our credibility. Think of Blackwater. It's ironic that in some parlance "gray water" (waste water from bathing, car washing, cooking, or dishwashing) still has value even if it is undrinkable; it can be used to water plants, as is done in California in droughts. "Black water" is useless for such a purpose; it is unfiltered sewer water full of human wastes or other objectionable material.

That's what makes a 4T--"solutions" that makes things worse, like Dred Scott or Hoover's budget cuts to try to solve the depression.

A good way of putting it. How apt!

Originally Posted by The Rani

I think you're talking about "common knowledge," not "common sense." I'll have to check for Einstein quotes, but I have a feeling that if that one exists it might have been screwed up in translation.

I believe that it was Voltaire who observed that common sense isn't so common as the phrase suggests.

trew 4t a mouth away...these cop are torchering kids on CNN NOW..........in Florida

Originally Posted by purple-state extreamist

trew 4t a mouth away...these cop are torchering kids on CNN NOW..........in Florida

???? Link?

Originally Posted by purple-state extreamist

trew 4t a mouth away...these cop are torchering kids on CNN NOW..........in Florida

Is English your first language?

I think he's talking about the tasering incident at the Kerry forum.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I think he's talking about the tasering incident at the Kerry forum.

Well then I guess that proves we're a mouth away.

Despite the fact that police and rent a cop powers make me nervous and all...

That kid was a standard lefty looking to increase his cred.

Wasn't sure where else to put this, as it could go in any number of threads:

Social Security hits first wave of boomers

By Richard Wolf, USA TODAY
OCTOBER 9, 2007

EARLEVILLE, Md. — When Kathleen Casey-Kirschling signs up for Social Security benefits Monday, it will represent one small step for her, one giant leap for her baby boom generation — and a symbolic jump toward the retirement system's looming bankruptcy.
Casey-Kirschling — generally recognized as the nation's first boomer (born in Philadelphia on Jan. 1, 1946, at 12:00:01 a.m.) — won't bankrupt the Social Security system by taking early retirement at 62. But after her, the deluge: 80 million Americans born from 1946 to 1964 who could qualify for Social Security and Medicare during the next 22 years.
The first wave of 3.2 million baby boomers turns 62 next year — 365 an hour. About 49% of the men and 53% of the women are projected to choose early retirement and begin drawing monthly Social Security checks representing 75% of the benefit they'd be entitled to receive if they waited four more years to retire.
In 2011, they'll turn 65 and be eligible for Medicare. In 2012, those who didn't take early retirement benefits will turn 66 and qualify for their full share.
"Once it starts to happen, and it's going to start in January, you're going to see millions of baby boomers starting to take it," says Casey-Kirschling, a retired seventh-grade teacher and nutrition consultant.
By 2030, Social Security's caseload will be 84 million people, up from 50 million today. Medicare will go from 44 million beneficiaries to 79 million. That will leave barely more than two workers paying payroll taxes for every retiree.
The boomer retirements have demographers, actuaries and economists worried as they prepare for an estimated $50 trillion in future obligations over the next 75 years. Social Security will rise from 4% to 6% of the nation's economy. Medicare will go from 3% to 11%.
"This," says Brian Riedl of the conservative Heritage Foundation, "is the single greatest economic challenge of our era."
Medicare's hospital insurance fund now pays out more than it takes in. Barring action by Congress, Social Security will start doing so in 2017. In 2019, the hospital insurance fund is projected to run out of funds. In 2041, the Social Security Trust Fund will run dry.
All the while, Medicare's payments for doctors and prescription drugs are projected to rise faster than the nation's overall economic growth. Beneficiaries' premiums, deductibles and co-payments will rise faster than their incomes, the government says.
It's a coming financial implosion that Washington hasn't mustered the will to confront. Fixing Social Security solely with higher taxes or cuts in spending would mean a 16% increase in the payroll tax or a 13% cut in benefits. Medicare's needs would be far greater: a 122% payroll tax hike or a 51% reduction in spending, just for hospital care.
Each year action isn't taken, the prognosis gets worse and the cure more expensive. It's "the power of compounding," says David Walker, the nation's comptroller general. "Right now, it's working against us."
On this one issue, liberals and conservatives agree: It's an unsustainable path, it must be altered, and Democrats and Republicans must do it together.
"Partisanship on this issue is as foolish as a food fight on the Titanic," says Rep. Jim Cooper, D-Tenn. Adds Rep. Frank Wolf, R-Va.: "It's not red or blue."
So far Washington has done little.
President Bush and Congress cut taxes in 2001 and 2003, which has left federal revenue at a level that Walker says will not support promises to future retirees. Congress added $768 billion over 10 years to Medicare in 2003 by creating a prescription-drug benefit. Two years later, lawmakers nicked Medicaid's projected cost by $5 billion over five years, but the Congressional Budget Office still projects the program to grow by about 8% a year.
Bush tried to overhaul Social Security and create private investment accounts in 2005 but was blocked by Democrats, who said it would drain money from the Social Security Trust Fund. Last week, his administration renewed an effort to charge upper-income seniors more for Medicare's prescription-drug coverage — a plan Congress ignored earlier this year.
Now a few lawmakers and budget analysts are sounding the alarm. Three commissions have been proposed to study the issue, recommend changes and, in two cases, force Congress to vote.
Walker is headlining a group of analysts from the political left and right on a nationwide "Fiscal Wake-Up Tour," speaking to dozens of Rotary clubs and newspaper editorial boards. Pollsters are holding focus groups in which citizens, once informed of the nation's fiscal future, usually say they'll accept tax increases or cuts in benefits.
ROUNDTABLE: Citizens share opinions on America's fiscal future
Casey-Kirschling recently moved with her husband, Patrick Kirschling, a university professor who turns 62 in March, into what had been their summer home on Maryland's Bohemia River. After years of working, they want the good life: time with family and friends, volunteer work, a villa in Florida and a 42-foot trawler to get them there. Its name: "First Boomer."
In deciding when to take Social Security benefits, the couple did the math and agreed Casey-Kirschling would take the money next year. They estimate she will get $240 less per month than she would have if she waited four years, but the money she'll receive — she wouldn't say precisely how much that will be — initially will stop her from having to tap other investments, she says.
"I could be dead next year," she says, "so why not take it this year?"
A retiree for every couple
The imbalance between workers and beneficiaries didn't happen overnight. In 1945, a decade after Social Security was created, there were 42 workers paying into the system for each retiree. Today, there are three. By 2030, Riedl says, "Every couple will have their own retiree to support."
Lawmakers have long known this. But in recent years, the short-term deficit picture has improved, masking the long-term problem.
The annual budget deficit dropped from $413 billion in 2004 to about $161 billion this year, but much is not included in that calculation: money owed to the Social Security Trust Fund, future federal and military retirement costs, obligations to veterans and more.
Nothing drives the problem home better than the baby boom generation. The impact of baby boomers on the Social Security and Medicare systems started in about 1990, when they began entering their 40s and were more prone to getting hurt or sick. The number of Americans claiming disability benefits doubled from 4.2 million in 1990 to 8.4 million in 2006.
"This has been going on for some years already," says Rick Foster, Medicare's chief actuary.
Now the boomers are readying for retirement. The Class of 1946 features some big names: President Bush, Laura Bush, former president Bill Clinton. (Hillary Rodham Clinton follows a year later.) Also turning 62 next year are five U.S. senators and 22 House members.
In each retiree's case, the decision on whether to take Social Security benefits now or later hinges on two issues: life expectancy and investment acumen. Those who take Social Security at 62 will get only 75% of their full benefit each month for the rest of their lives. Those who put off receiving the benefits get a higher percentage of their full benefit, up to 100% for those who wait until age 66 to retire. Those who wait up to age 70 can get 132% of their full benefit.
If you expect to live to a ripe old age, financial planners say, it may be worth waiting for the larger benefit at age 66 or later. But if you're investment-savvy or can put the money to good use now, it may be worth taking early retirement.
"Most people are claiming (benefits) in their early 60s," says Andrew Eschtruth of the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College. Average age: 63.
The actuaries at Social Security have accounted for such decisions. Because benefits are reduced for early retirement, the choices retirees make won't affect the long-term solvency of the system, says Stephen Goss, Social Security's chief actuary.
The Medicare situation is far worse. As baby boomers age, so will the average age of beneficiaries, and with it the medical costs that accompany longevity. Recognizing that health care costs present the greatest threat to the federal budget and economy, the Congressional Budget Office has revamped its operation to find new ways to lower costs.
Taking the show on the road
While bickering over $22 billion that Democrats want to add to Bush's 2008 budget of $2.9 trillion, the White House and Congress realize bigger issues lie ahead.
"In 10 years, Social Security will turn upside down," says White House budget director Jim Nussle, referring to when paid benefits will outweigh taxes coming in. "Anything we can do to wake people up to this challenge is important."
That's where the "Fiscal Wake-Up Tour" comes in. The presentation by the traveling troupe of policy watchdogs — hardly anyone's idea of entertainment — has appeared in 22 states so far, seeking to ignite public interest and political action. "The American people are starved for two things: truth and leadership," Walker says.
Robert Bixby of the Concord Coalition, which organized the tour, opened a recent event in Manchester, N.H., with a reference to that state's first-in-the-nation presidential primary. "The first thing I want to do is assure you that none of us is running for president," he said. "After you hear what we have to say, you'll understand why."
During the next hour, the local chamber of commerce was treated to a series of PowerPoint presentations with arrows that invariably pointed the wrong way. Negative savings rates. Rising health care costs. An aging population.
Pushing aside her chicken and rice in the back of the room, Manchester insurance agent Kathy Sousa, 55, started jotting down fixes she would be willing to consider. The first one was profound: stopping heroic care for the terminally ill, which costs Medicare billions. "This gets to be a very emotional conversation," she said.
It's getting emotional in Washington as well. Even the debate over immigration is connected, because an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants make up a growing share of the payroll tax-paying workforce. The influx of immigrants helps to slow down the inexorable decline in the number of workers per retiree.
Cooper and Wolf last month proposed a panel that would force Congress to vote up-or-down on a fiscal fix — akin to the process now used to close military bases.
That's because the solutions aren't pretty: raising the retirement age for full Social Security benefits past 67, the current limit for people born in 1960 or later. Charging wealthier Medicare beneficiaries more — a new reality for doctors' care — or giving them less. Raising or eliminating the $97,500 wage cap for payroll taxes. Perhaps all of that and more.
Drinking tea on their porch, Casey-Kirschling and her husband say they're willing to do their part on behalf of their two daughters, who are socking money away for retirement because they don't expect much government help.
"I can't imagine what's going to happen with our children and our grandchildren," Casey-Kirschling says. "They're not going to be able to retire."


__._,_.___

Casey-Kirschling recently moved with her husband, Patrick Kirschling, a university professor who turns 62 in March, into what had been their summer home on Maryland's Bohemia River. After years of working, they want the good life: time with family and friends, volunteer work, a villa in Florida and a 42-foot trawler to get them there. Its name: "First Boomer."...............

"I can't imagine what's going to happen with our children and our grandchildren," Casey-Kirschling says. "They're not going to be able to retire."

"A villa in Florida.... a 42-foot Trawler".....This Boomer is just hoping to have access to decent healthcare.

As Tony Bennet sings, "Well, just wake up... kiss the Good Life, goodbye".

As long as American Boomers (and other generations, too) feel they are entitled to IT ALL (as in I WANT IT ALL) there is no hope to fix anything. But to quote another article: The End Is Near, Think Positive.

I watched retirement health care benefits get axed before any of the boomer profs even got to take advantage of the benefit. Even though they counted on it in preparing for their retirement. 5 years to go and they realize they need 100,000$ more in their accounts or face a 10,000$ per year decline in their post-retirement income.

Ouch. It was one of the things that prompted me out of the uni and into the private sector. 42' trawler and a home on the shore indeed.

Originally Posted by purple-state extreamist

trew 4t a mouth away...these cop are torchering kids on CNN NOW..........in Florida

Dick Cheney is not a cop, dude.

Originally Posted by antichrist

I watched retirement health care benefits get axed before any of the boomer profs even got to take advantage of the benefit. Even though they counted on it in preparing for their retirement. 5 years to go and they realize they need 100,000$ more in their accounts or face a 10,000$ per year decline in their post-retirement income.

Ouch. It was one of the things that prompted me out of the uni and into the private sector. 42' trawler and a home on the shore indeed.

Problem is -- workers have been badly underpaid over the last seven years. Were they being paid better (productivity increases would have supported that) -- then there would be far more money available in personal savings. Of course, with fascist principles (talk about an oxymoron) underpinning Bush II - era economics, that is, that the measure of success in economics is that the "right people" get the income and the rest get squeezed, it's easy to see who gets the goodies (the well-connected) and who gets to struggle (everybody else).

In a depression, luxurious indulgences are quickly devalued. That means the yacht and the house on the shore. That means jewels, pearls, artwork, antiques, collections... after, of course, the objects whose collapse in valuation triggers the meltdown.

Don't be fooled by the illusion of prosperity; were it not for the war in Iraq we would likely have double-digit unemployment. People would be comparing Dubya to Herbert Hoover instead of the sui generis wreck that he is. The Bush administration has the strong support of lenders who offer debt as a substitute for missing income. Much of the economic activity is the effective transfer of wealth from the middle-income groups to the super-rich -- and the lending institutions, backed with cheap money from the Federal Reserve Bank, for the conduit for that transfer.

Further evidence of things falling apart. An advocacy group is buying random toys, back packs, lunch boxes at places like Walmart and Toy "R" Us and finding lots of lead in them. They're going after the retailers and toy companies since no-one expects the federal government to be able to cope.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071010/ts_nm/toys_lead_dc

I think it may be the case that after they got the lead out of paint kids may be not be getting enough lead in their diet these days. Parents should consider one of those lead substitutes for the older cars - in the pudding, or on the fries - or the occasional visit to an old, abandoned house in the area. I don't know about you but I loved to lick the walls of old, abandoned houses when I was a kid.

Anyone who charges Bush with Fascism is trivializing dictatorships. That is forbidden for all human beings.

Originally Posted by sean '90

Anyone who charges Bush with Fascism is trivializing dictatorships. That is forbidden for all human beings.

Excuse me, but I forgot which dictator forbade trivializing dictatorships? It's the sort of thing they would do, but...

Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54

Excuse me, but I forgot which dictator forbade trivializing dictatorships? It's the sort of thing they would do, but...

I absolutely forbid the act of forbidding. Now ... go and sin no less. (TM)

Originally Posted by antichrist

I watched retirement health care benefits get axed before any of the boomer profs even got to take advantage of the benefit. Even though they counted on it in preparing for their retirement. 5 years to go and they realize they need 100,000$ more in their accounts or face a 10,000$ per year decline in their post-retirement income.

Ouch. It was one of the things that prompted me out of the uni and into the private sector. 42' trawler and a home on the shore indeed.

This is one reason that I'm glad to be working for the Federal government. Although our pensions are now fairly trivial (unless you stick with your job 40 years, which I can't), I am sure we are one group who will never lose retirement health care. My wife, incidentally, is looking forward to getting her social security in a little over a year--early. But I'll wait at least until 66.

Originally Posted by sean '90

Anyone who charges Bush with Fascism is trivializing dictatorships. That is forbidden for all human beings.

The United States has been going on a dangerous course -- the slow erosion of democracy -- since 2001. Dubya is the most capricious President since at least 1900... which bodes ill. He has failed to recognize the electoral defeat of the GOP in 2006 as a mandate for anything. He has let conspirators like Abramoff and Rove get away with efforts to gut democracy and take revenge upon those who fail to toe the line politically.

It is best that the Bush effort to render the Democratic Party irrelevant or impotent failed. America might not have the spectacles and overt thuggery of full-blown fascism, let alone National Satanism... but the Corporate State would be entrenched until some great human calamity brought it to an end. People would be reminded that the acceptance of severe inequality and questionable practices in politics was a necessary expression of patriotism.

Remember -- Benito Mussolini established his dictatorship over a couple of years, maintaining the illusion that parliamentary democracy was still in effect -- until the assassination of Giacomo Matteotti, when the pretense had to be scrapped.

I have my timeline of how things could have gone:

November 2006: The GOP loses Senate seats in Rhode Island, Ohio, and (shockingly) Pennsylvania -- but maintains control of the Senate. The House remains Republican because Americans proved unwilling to change horses in the middle of the stream. The slight losses are spun as evidence that democracy works in America --

except that the corrupt Conrad Burns of Montana and the thug-enabling George Allen get re-elected because of vote fraud. Still, a majority is a majority, and a GOP that has effectively become a sock-puppet for Karl Rove has enough votes to win passage of all but a few insignificant or tolerated bills. Besides -- what can Americans do about vote fraud?

January 2007: The "new" House and Senate convene, and -- not surprisingly -- the Hard Right agenda wins by 52-48 margins in the Senate. Huge subsidies are voted to the oil industry, Big Pharma gets guarantees of higher prices, and a bankruptcy "reform" that makes bankruptcy all but impossible to get out from under us voted in. Children become responsible for the debts of defaulting parents even if there are no assets. "Tort reform" practically guts consumer protection from corporate misconduct. Welfare "reform" is intended to supply more cheap and expendable labor for Big Business. Environmental regulation is watered down.

February 2007: President Bush calls for "final victory" in Iraq, appealing to youth to achieve the great gloryfitting to America. It's the surge, and it has no effective opposition.

April 2007: The Pledge of Allegiance is altered -- and "to the Republic, for which it stands"
becomes "and to the Republic, and to the free-enterprise system for which it stands".

May 2007: Something very nasty happens to Joseph and Valerie Plame Wilson unless they take refuge in the France or some other country with a more democratic government than ours.

June 2007: Karl Rove becomes more public, having been designated as the effective boss of the Republican Party. After all, the "progress" of the last six years must not be reversed.

July 2007: Riots erupt in several large cities.

August 2007: A Constitutional Amendment to outlaw abortion and many forms of contraception is floated.

September 11, 2007: George W. Bush reminds us of the reason for his need for greater powers.

October 2007: The Boston Red Sox become World's Champions in three sweeps.

February 2008: Karl Rove's chosen man wins the first Republican primary. The Democratic Party also holds its primary -- the last for a long time in which many think that it has a chance to win the Presidency or make inroads into the House and Senate.

March 2008: The war winds down in Iraq. Surprise! Dubya cut a deal with Vladimir Putin, effectively turning Iraq's oil over to Russia.

June 2008: The Stock Market crashes on news of failures of banks heavily leveraged in subprime mortgages.

July 2007: Mass layoffs begin. Riots erupt in large cities -- and so do demonstrations. Blackwater is "deputized" to put down riots and demonstrations because the military balks at the "opportunity".

August 2007: To nobody's surprise, the Republican National Convention -- more coronation than debate -- nominates Karl Rove's choice for President. Unemployment reaches 10%.

September 2008: Almost every respectable journalist figures that the Democrats will win in a landslide. FoX News knows something that the other media don't know.

October 2008: The Chicago Cubs win their first World's Championship in 100 years by defeating the Detroit Tigers.

November 2008: The GOP wins a smashing victory, gaining House and Senate majorities suitable for amending the Constitution at will, and winning some Gubernatorial seats in contested races. Fraud is suspected widely -- but nobody can do anything.

December 2008: Unemployment reaches 15% even with the Christmas shopping season.

January 2009: Dubya goes out to pasture in his premature senility in Crawford, Texas. Rove's puppets are now in nominal control.

February 2009: Sweeping legislation is promoted in the name of meeting the economic "crisis". One part will be the replacement of the Federal Income Tax with "assessments" -- essentially poll taxes, and anyone who fails to pay them will be forced to work to pay them. A national sales tax is imposed, but it is capped for persons earning over $1 million a year -- to be rebated with a "negative income tax". The EITC disappears.

The federal minimum wage is slashed. Even the pretense of anti-trust laws is abandoned as cartels are promoted. There's no debt relief; in deflationary times, that makes debt an even greater burden.

April 2009: A wave of arrests of political activists in opposition begins.

June 2009: The government takes "pre-emptive" measures to prevent urban riots. The Dirty War has begun.

What does the troubling investigation of previous and ongoing mass murder and the complementary wish to ignore such killing say about the 3T/4T divisions?

The POTIROI wants "more investigation" (sic) of the European exterminations of Jews, Roma, Slavs, JWs, homosexuals, the infirm of body, the unsound of mind etc. after questioning the killings.

The POTUS wishes that the killing of peoples in the Armenian Unpleasantness not be labelled a 'genocide'.

The memorial for the slaughter of Poland's elite by Progressives in Katyn Woods becomes a political football between "nationalists" and "progressives".

The Peking Olympiad is styled the "Genocide Games" by Progressives angered by the Darfur Difficulty and the Myanmar Murders though the Celestials are not the trigger pullers or rapists in question.

Is this 3T behavior, this hemming and hawwing about State Killings on an impressive scale? Or is this denialism a 4T gambit?

pbrower2a, if you EVER post anti-corporate non-optimistic crap like you just did, you WILL be arrested and sent to re-education camp where we Millies will FORCE you to drink and eat and wear and etc. only corporate stuff as a punishment for your pessimism.

Originally Posted by sean '90

pbrower2a, if you EVER post anti-corporate non-optimistic crap like you just did, you WILL be arrested and sent to re-education camp where we Millies will FORCE you to drink and eat and wear and etc. only corporate stuff as a punishment for your pessimism.

Because after all, 4Ts are known for glorifying corporations and the business status quo, right?

See: American Revolution, American Civil War, Great Depression.

Originally Posted by 1990

Because after all, 4Ts are known for glorifying corporations and the business status quo, right?

See: American Revolution, American Civil War, Great Depression.

I don't trust generics. What was so anti--corporate about either of those three Crises. Corporations still existed in th post-Depression High. In fact, they were at their zenith then.