Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 497







Post#12401 at 04-17-2009 12:44 AM by mandelbrot5 [at joined Jun 2003 #posts 200]
---
04-17-2009, 12:44 AM #12401
Join Date
Jun 2003
Posts
200

I just read this and found it very Interesting...(I know that I've posted Peggy Noonan several times before, she just keeps surprising me with 4T observations)

More

SEARCH
Friday, April 17, 2009OPINION JOURNAL
U.S. Edition
Today's Paper
Video

OPINION: DECLARATIONSAPRIL 17, 2009
Goodbye Bland Affluence
Get ready for authenticity chic.
By PEGGY NOONAN



A small sign of the times: USA Today this week ran an article about a Michigan family that, under financial pressure, decided to give up credit cards, satellite television, high-tech toys and restaurant dining, to live on a 40-acre farm and become more self-sufficient. The Wojtowicz family—36-year-old Patrick, his wife Melissa, 37, and their 15-year-old daughter Gabrielle—have become, in the words of reporter Judy Keen, "21st century homesteaders," raising pigs and chickens, planning a garden and installing a wood furnace.

Mr. Wojtowicz was a truck driver frustrated by long hauls that kept him away from his family, and worried about a shrinking salary. His wife was self-employed and worked at home. They worked hard and had things but, Mr. Wojtowicz said, there was a "void." "We started analyzing what it was that we were really missing. We were missing being around each other." So he gave up his job and now works the land his father left him near Alma, Mich. His economic plan was pretty simple: "As long as we can keep decreasing our bills we can keep making less money."

The paper weirdly headlined them "economic survivalists," which perhaps reflected an assumption that anyone who leaves a conventional, material-driven life for something more physically rigorous but emotionally coherent is by definition making a political statement. But it didn't look political from the story they told. They didn't look like people trying to figure out how to survive as much as people trying to figure out how to live. The picture that accompanied the article showed a happy family playing Scrabble with a friend.

Their story hit a nerve. There was a lively comment thread on the paper's Web site, with more than 300 people writing in. "They look pretty happy to me," said a commenter. "My husband and I are making some of the same decisions." Another: "I don't know if this is so much survivalism as a return to common sense." Another: "The more stuff you own the harder you have to work to maintain it."

To some degree the Wojtowicz story sounded like the future, or the future as a lot of people are hoping it will be: pared down, more natural, more stable, less full of enervating overstimulation, of what Walker Percy called the "trivial magic" of modern times.

The article offered data suggesting the Wojtowiczes are part of a recent trend. People are gardening more if you go by the sales of vegetable seeds and transplants, up 30% over last year at the country's largest seed company. Sales of canning and preserving products are also up. Companies that make sewing products say more people are learning to sew. I have a friend in Manhattan who took to surfing the Web over the past six months looking for small- and farm towns in which to live. The general manager of a national real-estate company told USA Today that more customers want to "live simply in a less-expensive place."


Some of this—the desire to live less expensively, and perhaps with greater simplicity—seems to key off what I am seeing in Manhattan, a place still generally with more grievances than grief, and with a greater imagination about how badly things are going to go than how bad it is right now. Many think that no matter how much money is sloshing through the system from Washington, creating waves that lead to upticks, the recession is really a depression. We won't "come out of it," as the phrase goes, for five or seven years, because the downturn is systemic, global, and because the old esprit is gone. The baby boomers who for 40 years, from 1968 through 2008, did the grunt work of the great abundance—work was always a long-haul trip for them, they were the first in the office in 1975 and are the last to leave the office to this day—know the era they built is over, that something new is beginning, something more subdued and altogether more mysterious. The old markers of success—money, status, power—will not quite apply as they have. They watch and work as the future emerges.

In New York some signs of that future are obvious: fewer cars, less traffic, less of the old busy hum of the economic beehive. New York will, literally, get dimmer. Its magical bright-light nighttime skyline will glitter less as fewer companies inhabit the skyscrapers and put on the lights that make the city glow.

A prediction: By 2010 the mayor, in a variation on broken-window theory, will quietly enact a bright-light theory, demanding that developers leave the lights on whether there are tenants in the buildings or not, lest the world stand on a rise in New Jersey and get the impression no one's here and nobody cares.

The New York of the years 1750 to 2008—a city that existed for money and for all the arts and delights and beauties money brings—is for the first time going to struggle with questions about its reason for being. This will cause profound dislocations. For a good while the young will continue to flock in, for cheaper rents. Artists will still want to gather with artists—you cannot pick up the Metropolitan Museum and put it in Alma, Mich. But there will be a certain diminution in the assumption of superiority on which New York has long run, and been allowed, by America, to run.

More predictions. The cities and suburbs of America are about to get rougher-looking. This will not be all bad. There will be a certain authenticity chic. Storefronts, pristine buildings—all will spend less on upkeep, and gleam less.

So will humans. People will be allowed to grow old again. There will be a certain liberation in this. There will be fewer facelifts and browlifts, less Botox, less dyed hair among both men and women. They will look more like people used to look, before perfection came in. Middle-aged bodies will be thicker and softer, with more maternal and paternal give. There will be fewer gyms and fewer trainers, but more walking. Gym machines produced the pumped and cut look. They won't be so affordable now.

Hollywood will take the cue. During the depression, stars such as Clark Gable were supposed to look like normal men. Physical perfection would have distanced them from their audience. Now leading men are made of megamuscles, exaggerated versions of their audience. That will change.

The new home fashion will be spare. This will be the return of an old WASP style: the good, frayed carpet; dogs that look like dogs and not a hairdo in a teacup, as miniature dogs back from the canine boutique do now.

A friend, noting what has and will continue to happen with car sales, said America will look like Havana—old cars and faded grandeur. It won't. It will look like 1970, only without the bell-bottoms and excessive hirsuteness. More families will have to live together. More people will drink more regularly. Secret smoking will make a comeback as part of a return to simple pleasures. People will slow down. Mainstream religion will come back. Walker Percy again: Bland affluence breeds fundamentalism. Bland affluence is over.







Post#12402 at 04-17-2009 02:39 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
04-17-2009, 02:39 AM #12402
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

In some cases I thought he was describing the 1930s.

Now that's very interesting. I wouldn't mind living in such a world actually.

I'm not sure all of the predictions will come true, but it's a nice article nonetheless.

Another thing will go away: no longer will people question why, because asking why is a luxury that no one can afford to maintain.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#12403 at 04-17-2009 05:08 AM by Seminomad [at LA joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,379]
---
04-17-2009, 05:08 AM #12403
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
LA
Posts
2,379

Quote Originally Posted by Peggy Noonan
So will humans. People will be allowed to grow old again. There will be a certain liberation in this. There will be fewer facelifts and browlifts, less Botox, less dyed hair among both men and women. They will look more like people used to look, before perfection came in. Middle-aged bodies will be thicker and softer, with more maternal and paternal give. There will be fewer gyms and fewer trainers, but more walking. Gym machines produced the pumped and cut look. They won't be so affordable now.
Sounds like I'm going to need to STRONGLY reconsider my preference for older women!







Post#12404 at 04-17-2009 09:02 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
04-17-2009, 09:02 AM #12404
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

Smile

Quote Originally Posted by Seminomad View Post
Sounds like I'm going to need to STRONGLY reconsider my preference for older women!
Cougars out, grandmas in. Suits me to a T! And instead of searching for a silver fox, I'll look for a teddy bear. Suits me just fine!

Grandma Pat, ready to fix the oatmeal now.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#12405 at 04-17-2009 10:45 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
04-17-2009, 10:45 AM #12405
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Cove Hold, Carver, MA
Posts
6,431

Left Arrow What is missing?

Quote Originally Posted by mandelbrot5 View Post
A small sign of the times: USA Today this week ran an article about a Michigan family that, under financial pressure, decided to give up credit cards, satellite television, high-tech toys and restaurant dining, to live on a 40-acre farm and become more self-sufficient. The Wojtowicz family—36-year-old Patrick, his wife Melissa, 37, and their 15-year-old daughter Gabrielle—have become, in the words of reporter Judy Keen, "21st century homesteaders," raising pigs and chickens, planning a garden and installing a wood furnace.
What? Listening to Mr. Saari, I would have anticipated at least one Bovine American.







Post#12406 at 04-17-2009 06:59 PM by Seminomad [at LA joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,379]
---
04-17-2009, 06:59 PM #12406
Join Date
Nov 2001
Location
LA
Posts
2,379

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Cougars out, grandmas in. Suits me to a T! And instead of searching for a silver fox, I'll look for a teddy bear. Suits me just fine!

Grandma Pat, ready to fix the oatmeal now.
Oh, and there's the other part of this for me: early in college I got a glimpse of what my 'natural middle-aged' body would look like when I let myself go due to the intense stress from the workload.

I worked HARD to recover my old body back (it's not perfect, but at least it's *mine* ;-)) and I'm not giving it up without a fight; even if thrice-weekly gym workouts go out of style, I want no part of the body I had at 19!

Of course, I'm 45 years younger than you, so your mileage may vary...







Post#12407 at 04-18-2009 09:21 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
04-18-2009, 09:21 AM #12407
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

It does indeed. When you find yourself working harder and harder only to retard decay - when you realize the only exercise classes that suit your pace, your body, and your comprehension level are the ones given at the senior center - when you realize that the only ways to recover the figure of a woman in her fertile years are corseting or plastic surgery - then I, for one, decided I would try to become strong and fit, but that 'buffed' and fashionable would be far too much effort.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#12408 at 04-18-2009 12:17 PM by SVE-KRD [at joined Apr 2007 #posts 1,097]
---
04-18-2009, 12:17 PM #12408
Join Date
Apr 2007
Posts
1,097

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
When you find yourself working harder and harder only to retard decay (snip)
Could this soon become a metaphor for America and the West during this 4T?







Post#12409 at 04-18-2009 12:50 PM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
04-18-2009, 12:50 PM #12409
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Cougars out, grandmas in. Suits me to a T! And instead of searching for a silver fox, I'll look for a teddy bear. Suits me just fine!

Grandma Pat, ready to fix the oatmeal now.
Sounds like we'll be able to have grandmas back again, Yeah! Why is it that we're all cheering for the 4T culture to "come"/"get here"? Are we that sick of 3T culture? I know I am. I'm just curious about the rest of ya'll.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#12410 at 04-20-2009 01:44 AM by blackmet [at joined Jan 2009 #posts 150]
---
04-20-2009, 01:44 AM #12410
Join Date
Jan 2009
Posts
150

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Why is it that we're all cheering for the 4T culture to "come"/"get here"? Are we that sick of 3T culture? I know I am. I'm just curious about the rest of ya'll.

~Chas'88
Because 3T culture has run it's course, and it's time to actually fix some things instead of continuing to argue about them.

Luckily, I think we're going to make the correct decisions in the end. We'll probably walk out of this crisis with some kind of German/Swiss health care system, gay marriage allowed federally or at least in most states, substansially more renewable energy, a heavily regulated banking system, and some kind of weird, uneasy truce with the Middle East.

It will take a very long time, and it'll come at a high price. EVERYONE will probably end up paying for it come the next High. But we'll probably be OK. We just need to get the ball rolling now.







Post#12411 at 04-20-2009 10:07 AM by Jim Blowers [at Virginia joined Aug 2001 #posts 55]
---
04-20-2009, 10:07 AM #12411
Join Date
Aug 2001
Location
Virginia
Posts
55

Fourth Turning of Fourth Turnings?

The late 18th century Fourth Turning began with a Tea Party. The mid-19th century Fourth Turning began with a presidential election. The mid-20th century Fourth Turning began with a stock market crash.

Within the past 8 months, we have had a tea party, a presidential election, and a stock market crash. A Fourth Turning to beat all Fourth Turnings?







Post#12412 at 04-20-2009 10:16 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
---
04-20-2009, 10:16 AM #12412
Join Date
Jun 2001
Location
'49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains
Posts
7,835

Right Arrow On the liberal use of "we"

Quote Originally Posted by Chas'88 View Post
Sounds like we'll be able to have grandmas back again, Yeah! Why is it that we're all cheering for the 4T culture to "come"/"get here"? Are we that sick of 3T culture? I know I am. I'm just curious about the rest of ya'll.

~Chas'88
I for one am enjoying the dying days of the Unravelling; with the squalid finance and tortured legalism of the Crown of creation to entertain at home and Romantic Idealism still on predatory wing in central Eurasia to watch one also has to remeber that the last days of the season include locking, advent, and venery.

Before the Progressive evils of internments and lynchings of Our Fellows arrive with the Coming Crisis; before the induced famine for political purpose by some "champion" of the Mobility-- we have yet time enough at this late 3T date to set up some stores for the coming blows (locking), to ponder what Rough Beast is coming with his GC mark (advent), to hunt for the rare (venery-to seek out the Past as it was* rather than the Romantic Idealist vision it pretended to be). The killing fields of the Crisis do not call Yo. Ob. Sv. in anyway--delay being life and all. And, there is so much that can yet be done towards the Coming High by the choices made in this dying Unravelling. There will be time enough for the Thanatoid Days of the Crisis; yearn not for your extinctions.

______
*In example; I would urge T4Ters to recount their thinking (and feelings for the C-o-C) upon the embrace of torture as a rite acceptable to the American Civil Religion after many years of horror at such a notion. The coming generations could use a record of why professionals- legalists, practitioners of the healing artsm, law givers, etc. -gave aid and comfort (or held an awesome silence) to the use of such wicked means to such uncertain ends. This will not be utile in the Coming Crisis; but Clio's minions in the Awakening would wish to know the facts of this Progress by Our Commercial Republic's consumers.
Last edited by Virgil K. Saari; 04-20-2009 at 10:30 AM.







Post#12413 at 04-20-2009 01:22 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
04-20-2009, 01:22 PM #12413
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by Jim Blowers View Post
The late 18th century Fourth Turning began with a Tea Party. The mid-19th century Fourth Turning began with a presidential election. The mid-20th century Fourth Turning began with a stock market crash.

Within the past 8 months, we have had a tea party, a presidential election, and a stock market crash. A Fourth Turning to beat all Fourth Turnings?
Good to see your wit on these forums again.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#12414 at 04-20-2009 02:24 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
04-20-2009, 02:24 PM #12414
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Cove Hold, Carver, MA
Posts
6,431

Left Arrow Markers

Quote Originally Posted by Jim Blowers View Post
The late 18th century Fourth Turning began with a Tea Party. The mid-19th century Fourth Turning began with a presidential election. The mid-20th century Fourth Turning began with a stock market crash.

Within the past 8 months, we have had a tea party, a presidential election, and a stock market crash. A Fourth Turning to beat all Fourth Turnings?
I'm sympathetic with the comment, but I think you will find an economic downturn, presidential election and protests associated with the beginning of most crises, at least in cultures that hold presidential elections. It is just that the authors arbitrarily labeled one thing or another as 'the' trigger, and we are distant enough in time to have forgotten the less spectacular stuff.







Post#12415 at 04-20-2009 03:20 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
04-20-2009, 03:20 PM #12415
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by Jim Blowers View Post
The late 18th century Fourth Turning began with a Tea Party. The mid-19th century Fourth Turning began with a presidential election. The mid-20th century Fourth Turning began with a stock market crash.

Within the past 8 months, we have had a tea party...
Ah yes. Because the Revolutionary Crisis was kicked off by a bunch of politicians and hangers-on mildly expressing their disapproval -- but only well within the bounds of socially-acceptable discourse.

Those guys dressed up as indians broke into locked warehouses, stole the tea, destroyed the property of their enemies, and escaped to do it again.

Oh, today's 'protesters' are so very much like them. It must be a 4T sign.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12416 at 04-20-2009 07:43 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
04-20-2009, 07:43 PM #12416
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

The Pulitzer folks awarded two journalistic prizes today to . . .sex stories. .. about the mayor of Detroit and about Elliot Spitzer. A few of you, perhaps, were already here in 1998-9, when Bill Strauss and I had an endless fight about the impeachment of Clinton, which I thought was a pathetic charade dealing with events which were none of our business. I have to say these awards suggest the committee is still stuck in the 3T. . . .







Post#12417 at 04-20-2009 10:46 PM by Earl and Mooch [at Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots joined Sep 2002 #posts 2,106]
---
04-20-2009, 10:46 PM #12417
Join Date
Sep 2002
Location
Delaware - we pave paradise and put up parking lots
Posts
2,106

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Ah yes. Because the Revolutionary Crisis was kicked off by a bunch of politicians and hangers-on mildly expressing their disapproval -- but only well within the bounds of socially-acceptable discourse.

Those guys dressed up as indians broke into locked warehouses, stole the tea, destroyed the property of their enemies, and escaped to do it again.

Oh, today's 'protesters' are so very much like them. It must be a 4T sign.
At one port (Annapolis I think) the tea ships were burned. And at at least one other port the ships were turned away.
"My generation, we were the generation that was going to change the world: somehow we were going to make it a little less lonely, a little less hungry, a little more just place. But it seems that when that promise slipped through our hands we didn´t replace it with nothing but lost faith."

Bruce Springsteen, 1987
http://brucebase.wikispaces.com/1987...+YORK+CITY,+NY







Post#12418 at 04-20-2009 11:10 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
---
04-20-2009, 11:10 PM #12418
Join Date
Dec 2005
Posts
7,116

Right Arrow Borrowed time

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The Pulitzer folks awarded two journalistic prizes today to . . .sex stories. .. about the mayor of Detroit and about Elliot Spitzer. A few of you, perhaps, were already here in 1998-9, when Bill Strauss and I had an endless fight about the impeachment of Clinton, which I thought was a pathetic charade dealing with events which were none of our business. I have to say these awards suggest the committee is still stuck in the 3T. . . .
I wasn't here at that time, but this is no surprise to me at all. Our elite institutions, such as Pulitzer committees, have thus far been insulated from the cascading events to an extent perhaps unmatched by any previous 4T. If nothing else, the lessons of 1929 have been used to delay the day of reckoning for some. The sleepwalkers will be awakened, pun not intended, at some point, but the illusions that give comfort to the denizens of such banquets may last yet awhile longer.







Post#12419 at 04-20-2009 11:33 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
04-20-2009, 11:33 PM #12419
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Cove Hold, Carver, MA
Posts
6,431

Left Arrow An end.

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
A few of you, perhaps, were already here in 1998-9, when Bill Strauss and I had an endless fight about the impeachment of Clinton, which I thought was a pathetic charade dealing with events which were none of our business. I have to say these awards suggest the committee is still stuck in the 3T. . . .
I would suggest that the description 'endless' is a slight exaggeration. It only seemed that way.







Post#12420 at 04-21-2009 07:38 AM by Skabungus [at West Michigan joined Jun 2007 #posts 1,027]
---
04-21-2009, 07:38 AM #12420
Join Date
Jun 2007
Location
West Michigan
Posts
1,027

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The Pulitzer folks awarded two journalistic prizes today to . . .sex stories. .. about the mayor of Detroit and about Elliot Spitzer. A few of you, perhaps, were already here in 1998-9, when Bill Strauss and I had an endless fight about the impeachment of Clinton, which I thought was a pathetic charade dealing with events which were none of our business. I have to say these awards suggest the committee is still stuck in the 3T. . . .
Yes, quite stuck. The print media is foundering in a sea of electronic and virtual media and seems unable to reinvent itself. The aging leadership can't envision a future because it can't see the course of current events for what it is. They B 3T.

What will newspapers look like when Xers get the reins? Interesting I'll bet! What will they choose to make the focus of award winning writing?







Post#12421 at 04-21-2009 08:29 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
04-21-2009, 08:29 AM #12421
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Ah yes. Because the Revolutionary Crisis was kicked off by a bunch of politicians and hangers-on mildly expressing their disapproval -- but only well within the bounds of socially-acceptable discourse.

Those guys dressed up as indians broke into locked warehouses, stole the tea, destroyed the property of their enemies, and escaped to do it again.

Oh, today's 'protesters' are so very much like them. It must be a 4T sign.
At the least the participants in the Tea Party left the booze alone. There was no protest about tax on rum, as there was no tax on rum. (Go figure!)
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12422 at 04-21-2009 10:21 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
04-21-2009, 10:21 AM #12422
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
The Pulitzer folks awarded two journalistic prizes today to . . .sex stories. .. about the mayor of Detroit and about Elliot Spitzer. A few of you, perhaps, were already here in 1998-9, when Bill Strauss and I had an endless fight about the impeachment of Clinton, which I thought was a pathetic charade dealing with events which were none of our business. I have to say these awards suggest the committee is still stuck in the 3T. . . .
The Elliot Spitzer scandal was 100% sexual. The Kwame Crookpatrick -- I mean Kirkpatrick -- scandal involved misuse of public funds and abuse of official power. It's one thing to hire the service of a high-priced hooker on personal funds (Spitzer), but to use public funds to support a tryst is altogether criminal. Spitzer, to be sure was a hypocrite, having prosecuted organized criminals involved in prostitution rings -- but hypocrisy is not so much a statutory crime as it is a loathsome habit.

The greatest scandals of a 4T are not sexual (unless the sex scandal involves mass-rapes in conjunction with warfare or the exploitation of "comfort women" who have no choice -- such deeds being serious crimes against humanity as is looting); otherwise, sex is a puerile concern. Homelessness and malnutrition are legitimately far greater concerns than sex -- but such stories aren't -- pardon the word -- sexy.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 04-21-2009 at 03:37 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12423 at 04-22-2009 09:27 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
---
04-22-2009, 09:27 AM #12423
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort
Posts
14,092

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari View Post
*In example; I would urge T4Ters to recount their thinking (and feelings for the C-o-C) upon the embrace of torture as a rite acceptable to the American Civil Religion after many years of horror at such a notion. The coming generations could use a record of why professionals- legalists, practitioners of the healing artsm, law givers, etc. -gave aid and comfort (or held an awesome silence) to the use of such wicked means to such uncertain ends. This will not be utile in the Coming Crisis; but Clio's minions in the Awakening would wish to know the facts of this Progress by Our Commercial Republic's consumers.
I made my thoughts known on Mr. Kaiser's Nuremberg thread. HTH.







Post#12424 at 05-08-2009 02:50 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
05-08-2009, 02:50 PM #12424
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Cove Hold, Carver, MA
Posts
6,431

Left Arrow Another Lost Generation?

The NY Times sports section just put an article up that abuses turning theory terminology. Manny Joins the Lost Generation With Manny Ramirez getting caught with a drug test positive, they tie him in with a 'generation' of drug doped baseball players who aren't apt to get into the Hall of Fame as there are strong suspicions of abuse.

Is this another facet of the unraveling culture? Do we put drugged up athletes next to the Wall Street bubble blowers and corporate shills in Congress?







Post#12425 at 05-08-2009 03:43 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
05-08-2009, 03:43 PM #12425
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
The NY Times sports section just put an article up that abuses turning theory terminology. Manny Joins the Lost Generation With Manny Ramirez getting caught with a drug test positive, they tie him in with a 'generation' of drug doped baseball players who aren't apt to get into the Hall of Fame as there are strong suspicions of abuse.

Is this another facet of the unraveling culture? Do we put drugged up athletes next to the Wall Street bubble blowers and corporate shills in Congress?
More like unwittingly confirming, than abusing, Turning Theory... as in Lost = Gen X = Nomad.

In fact, one could see the doped-player scandals as this Third Turning's rough equivalent of the Black Sox debacle last time around.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
-----------------------------------------