Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 504







Post#12576 at 12-04-2009 06:22 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
12-04-2009, 06:22 PM #12576
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

See, it's people who say stuff like this:
Quote Originally Posted by MJC View Post
...our cultural gateway to the Pacific...
with a straight face who inspire my response.

I can see the Pacific just fine from my back deck (though the big ships tend to go a bit south or a bit north of where I sit) and there's nary a California in sight. And as for culture... Vancouver's only a couple hours' drive away, and it's got more of that in just the one metro area than Military-Industrial-Complex-istan has in all its wasted acres.

(And for the impatient, there's Seattle, too)
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12577 at 12-04-2009 08:12 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
12-04-2009, 08:12 PM #12577
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by MJC View Post
Let me just say that

1) "As California goes, so goes the nation"

and

2) "Ha ha ha suck it, California!"


are two extremes of opinion, both of which I find equally distasteful and irresponsible.

On the point of (1), California's economy is not the U.S. economy, much less the world economy. More importantly, the political system in Cali is outrageously screwed up and needs fixing, and there's no other way about it: It's the citizens of that state who have to do the fixing. It's decades overdue, and it will be hard, but goddammit, you have to pay your dues. Every other region in the U.S. has, and now it's your turn. You've benefited from a major influx of population and wealth for over half a century--now it's your task to make it all work, and iron out your social and economic inequities.

As for (2), I don't feel a lot of glee over seeing a major economy and population center, not to mention our cultural gateway to the Pacific, fall into this kind of crisis. There won't be any winners in a total meltdown of California. Even if you're not predisposed to sympathize with the people of that state, and wherever you come from politically, if nothing else consider the potential for mayhem such a destabilized situation could have on the rest of the world.


-----
I, for one, am in no hurry to deal with the unwashed hordes marching over the Siskyous. Let us hope that Cali solves it's problems in short order. Repealing Proposition 13 would be a start.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#12578 at 12-04-2009 09:50 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
12-04-2009, 09:50 PM #12578
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I, for one, am in no hurry to deal with the unwashed hordes marching over the Siskyous.
I doubt they could make it up this far. Somewhere around Mt. Scott, their innate laziness will kick in and relieve us of having to deal with them.
Let us hope that Cali solves it's problems in short order.
Let us not forget who we are talking about. I understand the importance of wishing and dreaming big, but there is such a thing as simply unreasonable hope...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12579 at 12-05-2009 07:46 AM by Ed Sweet 64 [at joined Dec 2009 #posts 24]
---
12-05-2009, 07:46 AM #12579
Join Date
Dec 2009
Posts
24

New to This - My View

This is my first post -- new to this. I think I'm Generation X, born New Year's Day 1964.

To me, it seems obvious we're entering a Crisis:
-- Hardening of the arteries, with dysfunctional government (i.e. FEMA, NASA, financial regulation, Medicare fraud, ... and the band played on)
-- No unity - polarization, nobody can agree on anything - the nation can't unite to turn things around if it can't even decide what to do.
-- A mountain of debt, rising from the landscape ever faster.
-- Nobody trusts any of our institutions any more. Nobody at all. They have mostly (with a few exceptions, like the Military) lost their credibility. Even "Big Science" looks a little tarnished with the whole Climate thing.

No sign of any regeneracy yet - except people are starting to get more frugal, and grow up a little, and get a little more serious.

Ed Sweet







Post#12580 at 12-05-2009 11:58 AM by Blairamir [at California joined Aug 2009 #posts 146]
---
12-05-2009, 11:58 AM #12580
Join Date
Aug 2009
Location
California
Posts
146

Things ain't so bad - yet

Even in California our institutions are still functioning. We have plenty of hard working police, FBI and federal marshals to hunt down the bad guys; plenty of highway patrol officers and firemen to help us on the roads and in other emergencies; plenty of food in the grocery stores and gasoline at the stations; plenty of hospitals, schools, electricity, water (but rationing has been underway); plenty of hard working, wealthy businessmen and women who keep most of us employed in the public sector; and finally plenty of politicians and lawyers ready to take your money and force you to buy coke/meth/opi from shady people. At least now we can keep our bongs out in open while we watch all the stupid crap on TV.

Does everyone here also think that banking is an essential institution? And furthermore that the government must carefully control who can store and manipulate electronic forms of fiat money?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...han-enron/full
Last edited by Blairamir; 12-05-2009 at 12:19 PM.







Post#12581 at 12-05-2009 12:19 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
---
12-05-2009, 12:19 PM #12581
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Downers Grove, IL
Posts
2,937

Rush and crush

With the rush and crush of the holiday season now officially upon us, there are that many more people out to get as much of your money as they think they can. Yet for many the current economic climate leaves us with a lack of energy and enthusiasm which could make it difficult if not downright impossible to get into a festive mood. I know I am not, and will probably not go out more than a couple of times all month. What would it now take for us collectively to recharge our overwhelmed bodies and minds?

This morning I listened to Obama's weekly radio address and seem encouraged that the amount of job loss is finally beginning to dwindle, and sounded confident that we have avoided sinking into a Second Great Depression. Agree of disagree?







Post#12582 at 12-05-2009 12:40 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
12-05-2009, 12:40 PM #12582
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Blairamir View Post
Even in California our institutions are still functioning. We have plenty of hard working police, FBI and federal marshals to hunt down the bad guys; plenty of highway patrol officers and firemen to help us on the roads and in other emergencies; plenty of food in the grocery stores and gasoline at the stations; plenty of hospitals, schools, electricity, water (but rationing has been underway); plenty of hard working, wealthy businessmen and women who keep most of us employed in the public sector; and finally plenty of politicians and lawyers ready to take your money and force you to buy coke/meth/opi from shady people. At least now we can keep our bongs out in open while we watch all the stupid crap on TV.
The problem is that people "need" bongs and stupid television. California's problem may be that its population grew too fast for the resources to meet. The most densely-populated parts of California are semi-desert (greater Los Angeles and San Diego) and resources of semi-desert areas are wholly unsuited for the population densities of places like southern New England.

Does everyone here also think that banking is an essential institution? And furthermore that the government must carefully control who can store and manipulate electronic forms of fiat money?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...han-enron/full
The Federal Reserve Bank is a necessary institution for clearing checks and similar transactions. Bank of America and Wells Fargo are not necessary institutions. Banking used to be a veritable cottage industry and worked well (and still does in rural America).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12583 at 12-05-2009 01:58 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
12-05-2009, 01:58 PM #12583
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Vancouver's only a couple hours' drive away, and it's got more of that in just the one metro area than Military-Industrial-Complex-istan has in all its wasted acres.

(And for the impatient, there's Seattle, too)
Which Vancouver?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#12584 at 12-05-2009 02:21 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
12-05-2009, 02:21 PM #12584
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Brian Beecher View Post
With the rush and crush of the holiday season now officially upon us, there are that many more people out to get as much of your money as they think they can. Yet for many the current economic climate leaves us with a lack of energy and enthusiasm which could make it difficult if not downright impossible to get into a festive mood. I know I am not, and will probably not go out more than a couple of times all month. What would it now take for us collectively to recharge our overwhelmed bodies and minds?
We will need to rely more heavily on non-material comforts. My suggestion: do things that bring cheer to people who need cheer. Go visit some elderly people in the nursing home, and if the nursing home will let you, bring a pet along. Give non-conventional gifts like tickets to concerts and theater. Participate (if such is your bent) in religious services and informal carol clubs.

Remember -- Baby Jesus was born in a barn -- not a scientific medical center. There were no HDTV screens playing colorized versions of It's A Wonderful Life. His older siblings didn't have a video game set or a personal computer. The manger was unwired, as was the rest of the world -- but His family was apparently poor by the standards of the time. Christmas became a celebration of family wealth (or pretense of wealth) only in the last 200 years. That says more about industrialization than about the Nativity.

Don't be depressed that you can't meet the image that commercial hectoring presents of the "right" Christmas -- one in which lots of expensive toys and clothes appear under the tree. Advertisers are pushers of a fraud.

This morning I listened to Obama's weekly radio address and seem encouraged that the amount of job loss is finally beginning to dwindle, and sounded confident that we have avoided sinking into a Second Great Depression. Agree of disagree?
We saw the inspiring politician again. Wise choices and folly alike are invisible but use similar words at times. Fiscal and monetary decisions as well as tax policies will determine whether we succeed or fail at creating not only adequate prosperity but also its equitable distribution. The way in which we create prosperity may matter no less than the amount. 3T methods were failures both in social justice and economic substance. We can do better.

We still have a good scientific community. The work ethic remains, and I could claim that if given a chance, people would return to work in factory that offers middle-income pay for solid work. We still have a free-enterprise system that rewards innovative, hard-working, thrifty business owners and a market system that punishes hare-brained schemes. Venture capital awaits solid business proposals. Much human talent that was badly under-used or misused awaits new purpose; its possessors will be delighted to use their abilities. Above all, we are unlikely to ever vote for someone like George W. Bush again for another seventy years or so when people forget the hazards of weak, inattentive government that rewards the "right people" for proximity to power and promotes hare-brained schemes that rely upon people buying what they can't afford.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12585 at 12-05-2009 05:10 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
12-05-2009, 05:10 PM #12585
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Which Vancouver?
Six of one, half dozen of the other.


Really, though, the other is the better of them (no offense to Kevin).
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12586 at 12-06-2009 06:52 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
12-06-2009, 06:52 AM #12586
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Six of one, half dozen of the other.


Really, though, the other is the better of them (no offense to Kevin).
None taken .
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#12587 at 12-09-2009 04:56 AM by MyWhiteDevil [at joined Aug 2009 #posts 49]
---
12-09-2009, 04:56 AM #12587
Join Date
Aug 2009
Posts
49

Quote Originally Posted by playwrite View Post
These folks are well into the 4T.

Read not only the post but the comments on the post. Heavy stuff.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...g-To-Freak-Out

I spent several hours reading through that and associated links yesterday. Thanks for posting it.







Post#12588 at 12-20-2009 04:08 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
12-20-2009, 04:08 PM #12588
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Interesting fact about the health bill

It is being violently attacked by both extreme pro-lifers and extreme pro-choicers (to use their words.) Sign of a 4T?







Post#12589 at 12-20-2009 06:13 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
12-20-2009, 06:13 PM #12589
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
It is being violently attacked by both extreme pro-lifers and extreme pro-choicers (to use their words.) Sign of a 4T?
Almost certainly. When us on the left and the teabaggers find common cause something's afoot.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#12590 at 12-26-2009 01:45 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
12-26-2009, 01:45 PM #12590
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

I say off with this guy's head. Allah? I've got his Allah you-know-where.

(Reproduced for informative purposes only... not for sale.)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34592031...rts/?GT1=43001

************************************************** ******
Nigerian questioned about son in foiled attack

Source tells NBC no air marshals were aboard; two travelers called heroes


NBC, msnbc.com and news services
updated 6 minutes ago

ROMULUS, Mich. - A retired Nigerian banker said on Saturday he's meeting with security officials because he fears his son may have been the man who allegedly tried to bomb a U.S.-bound flight.

Meanwhile, new details of the Christmas Day incident emerged, with a law enforcement official telling NBC News that no air marshals were aboard the flight and that two passengers were being hailed as heroes: The first jumped on the suspect and was hospitalized with burns; the second put the suspect in a headlock.

The source said the suspect — identified as Nigerian Umar Farouk Abdul Mutallab, 23 — had been observed going to the bathroom and coming out looking agitated. He apparently had a pillow stuffed under his shirt or tucked under his beltline and was then seen injecting a fluid from a syringe into some unseen substance, said the source, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was ongoing.

Authorities later confirmed a powdered substance and other materials had been recovered and were being analyzed.
In Nigeria, retired bank executive Alhaji Umaru Mutallab told The Associated Press he traveled from his home in the Muslim-dominated north to meet officials in Abuja, the capital, about his son.

Mutallab told The Associated Press that his son was a one-time university student in London who had left Britain to travel abroad. He said his son hadn't lived in London "for some time" but he wasn't sure exactly where he had gone.

"I believe he might have been to Yemen, but we are investigating to determine that," the elder Mutallab said.
Another son of the elder Mutallab told Reuters that the suspect "is my brother."

Nigeria's This Day newspaper cited family members as saying the elder Mutallab had been uncomfortable with his son's "extreme religious views" and had reported him to the U.S. Embassy in the capital Abuja and to Nigerian security agencies six months ago.

British officials on Saturday were searching the last known address of the suspect, who was thought to be an engineering student at University College London, one of the United Kingdom's leading universities, according to Sky News.

'First there was a pop'
The attempted bombing occurred as Northwest Airlines Flight 253 from Amsterdam prepared to land in Detroit just before noon Friday.
Travelers said they smelled smoke, saw a glow, and heard what sounded like firecrackers as Flight 253, carrying 278 passengers and 11 crew members from Amsterdam, prepared to land.
"It sounded like a firecracker in a pillowcase," said Peter Smith, a passenger from the Netherlands. "First there was a pop, and then (there) was smoke."

Smith said one passenger, sitting opposite the suspect, climbed over passengers, went across the aisle and tried to restrain the man, who officials say was trying to ignite an explosive device. The heroic passenger appeared to have been burned.

Afterward, the suspect was taken to a front-row seat with his pants cut off and his legs burned. Multiple law enforcement officials also said the man appeared badly burned on his legs, indicating the explosive was strapped there. The components were apparently mixed in-flight and included a powdery substance, multiple law enforcement and counterterrorism officials said.

Attempted act of terrorism
The White House said it believed it was an attempted act of terrorism and stricter security measures were quickly imposed on airline travel. Dutch anti-terrorism authorities said the U.S. has asked all airlines to take extra precautions on flights worldwide that are bound for the United States.
The incident was reminiscent of Richard Reid, who tried to destroy a trans-Atlantic flight in 2001 with explosives hidden in his shoes, but was subdued by other passengers.

One law enforcement official said the man claimed to have been instructed by al-Qaida to detonate the plane over U.S. soil, but other law enforcement officials cautioned that such claims could not be verified immediately, and said the man may have been acting independently — inspired but not specifically trained or ordered by terror groups.
All the officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation was continuing.

Intelligence and anti-terrorism officials in Yemen said they were investigating claims by the suspect that he picked up the explosive device and instructions on how to use it in that country.
Charges expected
The suspect was being questioned and was expected to be charged Saturday.
An intelligence official said he was being held and treated in an Ann Arbor, Mich., hospital. The hospital said one passenger from the flight was taken to the University of Michigan Medical Center in Ann Arbor, but referred all inquiries to the FBI.

Melinda Dennis, who was seated in the front row of the plane, said the man involved was brought to the front row and seated near her. She said his legs appeared to be badly burned and his pants were cut off. She said he was taken off the plane handcuffed to a stretcher.

One law enforcement official, also speaking on condition of anonymity, said Mutallab's name had surfaced earlier on at least one U.S. intelligence database, but he was not on a watch list or a no-fly list.
The suspect boarded in Nigeria and went through Amsterdam en route to Detroit, Peter King, the ranking Republican member of the House Homeland Security Committee, told CNN.

Dutch airline KLM says the connection in Amsterdam from Lagos, Nigeria, to Detroit involves a change in carrier and a change in aircraft.
Schiphol airport, one of Europe's busiest with a heavy load of transit passengers from Africa and Asia to North America, strictly enforces European security regulations including only allowing small amounts of liquid in hand luggage that must be placed inside clear plastic bags.
A spokesman for the Federal Airports Authority of Nigeria, Akin Olukunle, said all passengers and their luggage are screened before boarding international flights. He also said the airport in Lagos cleared a U.S. Transportation Security Administration audit in November.
"We had a pass mark," Olukunle said. "We actually are up to standards in all senses."



London's Metropolitan Police also was working with U.S. officials, a spokeswoman said, and searches were being conducted in that city. The spokeswoman would not provide additional details, including what connection the suspect had to London or what was being searched. She spoke on condition of anonymity in line with department policy.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#12591 at 12-26-2009 05:23 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
12-26-2009, 05:23 PM #12591
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Brings new meaning to the term "Hot Pants".
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#12592 at 01-03-2010 06:08 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
01-03-2010, 06:08 PM #12592
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

A very interesting article from a guy who gets it. The potential crisis over the debt limit is something to watch for.

California's scary sneak preview

By Ezra Klein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 3, 2010; G01

We Californians pride ourselves on the crystal-ball quality of our state. Auto emissions regulations, the tech boom and bust, Ronald Reagan, Hispanic immigration, the anti-tax revolt, the mortgage bubble, the struggle for gay rights, most movies, the popularity of Richard Nixon, the unpopularity of Richard Nixon, plastic surgery, and Tiger Woods's marital problems were all tested in the Golden State before being released to audiences nationwide.

The next likely item on that list is not a happy one, however. California is in a total fiscal crisis. It's had to slash state services to the bone and will have to cut further. It's gutted the University of California and lost its credit rating. David Paterson, the governor of New York, casually mentioned that he thinks California might default on its debt. That's bad enough, as it could drag down the national recovery. But what's worse is that this picture is probably coming to a theater near, well, all of us.

California's fiscal crisis will look sadly familiar to close watchers of the national checkbook. That's because California is not having a fiscal crisis so much as a political crisis. The trigger may have been the recession, but the root cause was written into the state constitution, and it was visible long before the housing boom went bust.

In California, passing a budget or raising taxes requires a two-thirds majority in both the state's Assembly and its Senate. That need not pose a problem, at least in theory. The state has labored under that restriction for a long time, and handled it with fair grace. But as the historian Louis Warren argues, the vicious political polarization that's emerged in modern times has made compromise more difficult.

All of this, however, has been visible for a long time. Polarization isn't a new story, nor were California's budget problems and constitutional handicap. Yet the state let its political dysfunctions go unaddressed. Most assumed that the legislature's bickering would be cast aside in the face of an emergency. But the intransigence of California's legislators has not softened despite the spiraling unemployment, massive deficits and absence of buoyant growth on the horizon. Quite the opposite, in fact. The minority party spied opportunity in fiscal collapse. If the majority failed to govern the state, then the voters would turn on them, or so the theory went.

That raises a troubling question: What happens when one of the two major parties does not see a political upside in solving problems and has the power to keep those problems from being solved?

If all this is sounding familiar, that's because it is. Congress doesn't need a two-thirds majority to get anything done. It needs a three-fifths majority, but that's not usually available, either. Ever since Newt Gingrich partnered with Bob Dole to retake the Congress atop a successful strategy of relentless and effective obstructionism, Congress has been virtually incapable of doing anything difficult because the minority party will either block it or run against it, or both. And make no mistake: Congress will need to do hard things, and soon. In the short term, unemployment is likely to remain high and the economy is likely to remain weak unless Congress can muster another round of serious stimulus spending. The economist Karl Case, co-founder of the famed Case-Shiller housing index, now believes that earlier optimism about our economic recovery -- which he shared -- was misplaced. "The probability is very high of a serious double dip like 1982," he told the New York Times. The housing market seems to be sagging again, and the government's interventions -- not just the stimulus but also relaxed standards at Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Authority -- are set to end.

Further out, the long-term deficit problem, which is driven largely by health-care costs, is startling. The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities estimates that debt will reach 300 percent of gross domestic product come 2050 -- and that estimate might be optimistic. But solutions seem unlikely. No one who watched the health-care bill wind its way through the legislative process believes Congress is ready for the much harder and more controversial cost-cutting that will be necessary in the future.

Similarly, Sens. Kent Conrad and Judd Gregg recently suggested a bipartisan deficit commission that would reach a consensus on the budget and report back to a grateful Congress. On Tuesday, a Wall Street Journal editorial showed the conservative interest in such compromises: Republicans should "agree to a deficit commission only if it takes tax increases off the table," it said, reminding wavering Republicans that "President George H.W. Bush renounced his no-new-taxes pledge and made himself a one-termer."

These two problems get to the essential difficulties confronting the nation: There is no doubt that minority parties generally profit in elections when the unemployment rate is high. But given that reality, what incentive do they have to help the majority party lower the unemployment rate? Further out, there is no doubt that the majority party has an incentive to prevent a fiscal crisis on its watch. But what incentive does the minority party have to sign on to the screamingly painful decisions that will avert crisis?

In another system of government, that wouldn't much matter. In our system of government, which requires a supermajority in the Senate for most projects, it matters a lot. On Jan. 20, for instance, the Senate is expected to vote on raising the debt ceiling. Generally, this is a bipartisan vote, as the debt is a bipartisan creation. This year, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell reportedly told Majority Leader Harry Reid that if he wants an increase in the ceiling, he owns it and needs to find the votes for it. That's the sort of budgetary brinkmanship that brings us back to California.

The lesson of California is that a political system too dysfunctional to avert crisis is also too dysfunctional to respond to it. The difficulty is not economic so much as it is political; solving our fiscal problem is a mixture of easy arithmetic and hard choices, but until we solve our political problem, both are out of reach. And we can't assume that an emergency, or the prospect of one, will solve the political problem for us. If you want to see how that movie ends, just look west, as we have so many times before.







Post#12593 at 01-04-2010 02:35 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
01-04-2010, 02:35 AM #12593
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
8,275

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
In another system of government, that wouldn't much matter. In our system of government, which requires a supermajority in the Senate for most projects, it matters a lot. On Jan. 20, for instance, the Senate is expected to vote on raising the debt ceiling. Generally, this is a bipartisan vote, as the debt is a bipartisan creation.
That is a really freaking scary thought. It sounds like the Democrats in Congress want to put us further into debt to Red China because they're too chicken-shit to raise taxes on the filthy rich who got us into this mess. Afraid the Big, Bad Republicans won't LIKE THEM, and will convince ordinary people that it's THEIR taxes that'll go up.

Pox on both their Houses. Both parties need to go, like yesterday.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#12594 at 01-04-2010 04:36 AM by Chas'88 [at In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky joined Nov 2008 #posts 9,432]
---
01-04-2010, 04:36 AM #12594
Join Date
Nov 2008
Location
In between Pennsylvania & Pennsyltucky
Posts
9,432

That's what I've been saying since '07 when I saw the newly elected Democratic Congress wasn't moving towards setting a firm end date for Iraq--the major issue that they had been elected for. Their whinning about needing more votes in Congress to make it possible made me go: and when they get the needed votes they'll say they'll need a Dem-friendly President, and when they have a Dem-friendly President they'll say that they'll need everyone to agree. In short the Dems will never do anything because they've been giving us the run-around for the longest time & will continue to do so. Why? Because the Dems were bought out by corporations in the 80s to try and compete with the Repubs. As has been said they're part of a two-headed Hydra and the only way to kill it would be not to cut off its heads--more would sprout in their place--but instead kill the beast by stabbing it in its heart. Take down the corporations and you'll kill the beast.

~Chas'88
"There have always been people who say: "The war will be over someday." I say there's no guarantee the war will ever be over. Naturally a brief intermission is conceivable. Maybe the war needs a breather, a war can even break its neck, so to speak. But the kings and emperors, not to mention the pope, will always come to its help in adversity. ON the whole, I'd say this war has very little to worry about, it'll live to a ripe old age."







Post#12595 at 01-04-2010 11:00 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-04-2010, 11:00 AM #12595
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

A lot of these expressed opinions from the left about the Democrats would change if the Senate just got rid of its 60-vote requirement to pass any legislation. Seriously. Any bill has to pass the Senate before it can become law, progressives never have a solid 60-vote majority in the Senate, and that gives conservatives veto power. Plus, of course the president has veto power, too. So when Dems in Congress said they needed more votes, and needed a Democratic president, they were simply telling the truth. Even the fairly watered-down health care reform bill only barely passed the Senate, and it's because of that friggin' Senate rule.

But if the Senate were to change its rules so that a simple majority could pass legislation, like it is in the House -- and since we DO have a Democratic president -- a lot more could be done. That simple rule is hamstringing the government. And the Senate could change it at the beginning of its next session with a simple procedural vote, no supermajority required.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#12596 at 01-04-2010 11:05 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
---
01-04-2010, 11:05 AM #12596
Join Date
May 2005
Location
"Michigrim"
Posts
15,014

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
That is a really freaking scary thought. It sounds like the Democrats in Congress want to put us further into debt to Red China because they're too chicken-shit to raise taxes on the filthy rich who got us into this mess. Afraid the Big, Bad Republicans won't LIKE THEM, and will convince ordinary people that it's THEIR taxes that'll go up.

Pox on both their Houses. Both parties need to go, like yesterday.
Try running a campaign on the premise of "I will raise taxes", and you lose. We aren't going to see tax increases until the International Monetary Fund dictates them to us. That won't be pretty.

We have for all practical purposes a contest between a conservative party (the Democrats) and a semi-fascist party (the Republicans). America has practically no heritage of any strong social-democratic party, an oddity in the industrial world.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12597 at 01-04-2010 11:17 AM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
---
01-04-2010, 11:17 AM #12597
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
California
Posts
12,392

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
We have for all practical purposes a contest between a conservative party (the Democrats) and a semi-fascist party (the Republicans).
A distortion of both parties, again, I believe, caused by that Senate rule and nothing else. In fact, a majority of Democrats are progressive at this point, and there are still many conservative (not wacko) Republicans, too. Between Republicans and conservative Democrats, a sufficient minority exists in the Senate to veto any truly progressive legislation, and that and only that is the reason the Democrats seem like a conservative party.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#12598 at 01-04-2010 11:05 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
01-04-2010, 11:05 PM #12598
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Senate rules

Brian, I'm sorry to have to tell you that you are mistaken. The Senate rules actually require an even larger majority to cut off debate on a rule change! I discovered this blogging about the subject in 2005, when the Republicans were threatening to do away with filibusters against judicial appointments. It's locked in.

The Sunday Times had a terrible article in the magazine about the guy who handled the bonuses for bailed-out banks. It shows that nothing has really been done about the guys' compensation and that the Administration have been wimps about the whole thing. I am increasingly fearful that if the left does not mobilize the populist anger out there, the right will, at least to get back in power. As Harry Truman liked to say, when the people have to choose between a Republican and a Republican, they'll pick a Republican every time.

This election is key. A lot of Democrats from rightwing districts are quitting. Will they give way to Republicans or to real Democrats? That will tell a lot.

I hate to say this, but Obama may turn out to be not the new Lincoln, but the new U. S. Grant--another first President from a Nomad generation.







Post#12599 at 01-04-2010 11:34 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
01-04-2010, 11:34 PM #12599
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
A very interesting article from a guy who gets it. The potential crisis over the debt limit is something to watch for.

California's scary sneak preview

By Ezra Klein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 3, 2010; G01

We Californians pride ourselves on the crystal-ball quality of our state. Auto emissions regulations, the tech boom and bust, Ronald Reagan, Hispanic immigration, the anti-tax revolt, the mortgage bubble, the struggle for gay rights, most movies, the popularity of Richard Nixon, the unpopularity of Richard Nixon, plastic surgery, and Tiger Woods's marital problems were all tested in the Golden State before being released to audiences nationwide.

The next likely item on that list is not a happy one, however. California is in a total fiscal crisis. It's had to slash state services to the bone and will have to cut further. It's gutted the University of California and lost its credit rating. David Paterson, the governor of New York, casually mentioned that he thinks California might default on its debt. That's bad enough, as it could drag down the national recovery. But what's worse is that this picture is probably coming to a theater near, well, all of us.

California's fiscal crisis will look sadly familiar to close watchers of the national checkbook. That's because California is not having a fiscal crisis so much as a political crisis. The trigger may have been the recession, but the root cause was written into the state constitution, and it was visible long before the housing boom went bust.

In California, passing a budget or raising taxes requires a two-thirds majority in both the state's Assembly and its Senate. That need not pose a problem, at least in theory. The state has labored under that restriction for a long time, and handled it with fair grace. But as the historian Louis Warren argues, the vicious political polarization that's emerged in modern times has made compromise more difficult.

All of this, however, has been visible for a long time. Polarization isn't a new story, nor were California's budget problems and constitutional handicap. Yet the state let its political dysfunctions go unaddressed. Most assumed that the legislature's bickering would be cast aside in the face of an emergency. But the intransigence of California's legislators has not softened despite the spiraling unemployment, massive deficits and absence of buoyant growth on the horizon. Quite the opposite, in fact. The minority party spied opportunity in fiscal collapse. If the majority failed to govern the state, then the voters would turn on them, or so the theory went.

That raises a troubling question: What happens when one of the two major parties does not see a political upside in solving problems and has the power to keep those problems from being solved?

If all this is sounding familiar, that's because it is. Congress doesn't need a two-thirds majority to get anything done. It needs a three-fifths majority, but that's not usually available, either. Ever since Newt Gingrich partnered with Bob Dole to retake the Congress atop a successful strategy of relentless and effective obstructionism, Congress has been virtually incapable of doing anything difficult because the minority party will either block it or run against it, or both. And make no mistake: Congress will need to do hard things, and soon. In the short term, unemployment is likely to remain high and the economy is likely to remain weak unless Congress can muster another round of serious stimulus spending. The economist Karl Case, co-founder of the famed Case-Shiller housing index, now believes that earlier optimism about our economic recovery -- which he shared -- was misplaced. "The probability is very high of a serious double dip like 1982," he told the New York Times. The housing market seems to be sagging again, and the government's interventions -- not just the stimulus but also relaxed standards at Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the Federal Housing Authority -- are set to end.

Further out, the long-term deficit problem, which is driven largely by health-care costs, is startling. The Center for Budget and Policy Priorities estimates that debt will reach 300 percent of gross domestic product come 2050 -- and that estimate might be optimistic. But solutions seem unlikely. No one who watched the health-care bill wind its way through the legislative process believes Congress is ready for the much harder and more controversial cost-cutting that will be necessary in the future.

Similarly, Sens. Kent Conrad and Judd Gregg recently suggested a bipartisan deficit commission that would reach a consensus on the budget and report back to a grateful Congress. On Tuesday, a Wall Street Journal editorial showed the conservative interest in such compromises: Republicans should "agree to a deficit commission only if it takes tax increases off the table," it said, reminding wavering Republicans that "President George H.W. Bush renounced his no-new-taxes pledge and made himself a one-termer."

These two problems get to the essential difficulties confronting the nation: There is no doubt that minority parties generally profit in elections when the unemployment rate is high. But given that reality, what incentive do they have to help the majority party lower the unemployment rate? Further out, there is no doubt that the majority party has an incentive to prevent a fiscal crisis on its watch. But what incentive does the minority party have to sign on to the screamingly painful decisions that will avert crisis?

In another system of government, that wouldn't much matter. In our system of government, which requires a supermajority in the Senate for most projects, it matters a lot. On Jan. 20, for instance, the Senate is expected to vote on raising the debt ceiling. Generally, this is a bipartisan vote, as the debt is a bipartisan creation. This year, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell reportedly told Majority Leader Harry Reid that if he wants an increase in the ceiling, he owns it and needs to find the votes for it. That's the sort of budgetary brinkmanship that brings us back to California.

The lesson of California is that a political system too dysfunctional to avert crisis is also too dysfunctional to respond to it. The difficulty is not economic so much as it is political; solving our fiscal problem is a mixture of easy arithmetic and hard choices, but until we solve our political problem, both are out of reach. And we can't assume that an emergency, or the prospect of one, will solve the political problem for us. If you want to see how that movie ends, just look west, as we have so many times before.
We are SOOOOO screwed.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#12600 at 02-02-2010 03:42 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
---
02-02-2010, 03:42 PM #12600
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Downers Grove, IL
Posts
2,937

No summer festivals

I must make a true confession here, and that I was one of the last of the doubters who didn't feel we had turned the 4T corner. No more. One sign that seems to indicate that we are now 4T is that a few if not several of the towns around here have announced cancellation of summer festivals which have been mainstays of the communities for at least two or even three decades. Funding issues have been cited, but I have always been under the impression that they actually made money for their communities. But have also heard of increasing resentment from the business community of these suburban downtowns. They complain that it siphons off business. But let's face it! These festivals only run for three days each summer, which means they have the rule of the roost for the remaining 362. I guess business has gotten to the point where it feels it can't sacrifice even three days each summer for the general public to have a good time. Perhaps the biggest irony here is that in the early 1980's, when most of these festivals first began, they were held at least in part as a way to promote their downtowns, which had been largely decimated following the building of the big suburban malls. But then again there is a larger share of independent business owners in the downtowns, while the malls aree made up almost exclusively of large corporate chains.
-----------------------------------------