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Thread: Evidence We're in a Third--or Fourth--Turning - Page 505







Post#12601 at 02-02-2010 04:03 PM by herbal tee [at joined Dec 2005 #posts 7,116]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Beecher View Post
I must make a true confession here, and that I was one of the last of the doubters who didn't feel we had turned the 4T corner. No more. One sign that seems to indicate that we are now 4T is that a few if not several of the towns around here have announced cancellation of summer festivals which have been mainstays of the communities for at least two or even three decades. Funding issues have been cited, but I have always been under the impression that they actually made money for their communities. But have also heard of increasing resentment from the business community of these suburban downtowns. They complain that it siphons off business. But let's face it! These festivals only run for three days each summer, which means they have the rule of the roost for the remaining 362. I guess business has gotten to the point where it feels it can't sacrifice even three days each summer for the general public to have a good time. Perhaps the biggest irony here is that in the early 1980's, when most of these festivals first began, they were held at least in part as a way to promote their downtowns, which had been largely decimated following the building of the big suburban malls. But then again there is a larger share of independent business owners in the downtowns, while the malls are made up almost exclusively of large corporate chains.
Maybe we should have our 4T era music festivals in those rotting corpses of commericalism known as dead malls.







Post#12602 at 02-02-2010 04:26 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Chicago shelved several of its summer festivals, too -- all the guise of increased safety. Don't think it gets any more 4T than that.







Post#12603 at 02-02-2010 08:59 PM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Chicago shelved several of its summer festivals, too -- all the guise of increased safety. Don't think it gets any more 4T than that.
As A Chicagoan who lives downtown, I can't say it breaks my heart in terms of traffic. It was amazing to see nearly a million peaceful people hanging out at the fireworks, however; although I haven't actually gone there in years--even if I live 3 blocks away.

This is the same mayor who bulldozed x'es into the Meigs' Field runway "for security reasons." From what I can tell, he just wanted it for other uses. The area has turned out to be too polluted and toxic for much. Then Chicago got Boeing headquarters to move here, but I guess those execs have to fly into Palwaukee or DuPage airport in the suburbs or something rather than right into the heart of the city with a short limo drive to their offices.

City mayors--especially Daley--are the closest things we see to feudal lords in the US. They can survey their domains.

Now I wish they'd just get rid of the Waste--I mean--Taste of Chicago, where suburbanites and teenagers wander around eating Flinstone-sized bbq'ed turkey legs and pushing strollers into people's calves. Haven't ventured near that salmonella-ridden venue in years. Terrible food and worse music.

The Millennium Park concerts are another story. Beautiful.







Post#12604 at 02-03-2010 03:07 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
That is a really freaking scary thought. It sounds like the Democrats in Congress want to put us further into debt to Red China because they're too chicken-shit to raise taxes on the filthy rich who got us into this mess. Afraid the Big, Bad Republicans won't LIKE THEM, and will convince ordinary people that it's THEIR taxes that'll go up.
Very well put.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#12605 at 02-03-2010 04:04 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
That is a really freaking scary thought. It sounds like the Democrats in Congress want to put us further into debt to Red China...
You totally need to go visit China, Kevin. A severe level of misinformedness deserves a radical palliative measure.

----

Just don't eat the raw pig ear. Seriously.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12606 at 02-03-2010 03:06 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
That is a really freaking scary thought. It sounds like the Democrats in Congress want to put us further into debt to Red China because they're too chicken-shit to raise taxes on the filthy rich who got us into this mess...
You totally need to go visit China, Kevin. A severe level of misinformedness deserves a radical palliative measure...
A visit to China would accomplish nothing. The Chinese are engaging in naked mercantilism, and it's obvious to everyone ... even those taking full advantage of the situation. Yes, the Japanese and the Asian Tigers did it too, but China is just too big to export to everyone without taking imports in any meaningful amount, and we're not rich enough to do the reverse.

We will do something eventually. Sooner is better than later, but sometime before they cut us off as deadbeats is a must.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#12607 at 02-03-2010 05:02 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
Very well put.
Howdy stranger! How's life treating you?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#12608 at 02-03-2010 05:59 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Quote Originally Posted by annla899 View Post
City mayors--especially Daley--are the closest things we see to feudal lords in the US. They can survey their domains.

Now I wish they'd just get rid of the Waste--I mean--Taste of Chicago, where suburbanites and teenagers wander around eating Flinstone-sized bbq'ed turkey legs and pushing strollers into people's calves. Haven't ventured near that salmonella-ridden venue in years. Terrible food and worse music.

The Millennium Park concerts are another story. Beautiful.
The two Daleys are no doubt the top of the lot as far as feudalism and Daley II probably outdoes Daley I. At least under Daley I the city was still affordable to working class people which it is not today except in a few neighborhoods where the murder rate seems to rival that of Baghdad. I still have hopes that now that Chicago didn't win the Olympics that Daley II will finally retire at the end of this term. But maybe that is too much to hope for. He has definitely been all for big business, as you for the most part no longer see any neighborhood bars or luncheonettes especially anywhere close to downtown.







Post#12609 at 02-03-2010 06:12 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
A visit to China would accomplish nothing. The Chinese are engaging in naked mercantilism, and it's obvious to everyone ... even those taking full advantage of the situation. Yes, the Japanese and the Asian Tigers did it too, but China is just too big to export to everyone without taking imports in any meaningful amount, and we're not rich enough to do the reverse.

We will do something eventually. Sooner is better than later, but sometime before they cut us off as deadbeats is a must.
More to the point, do you think they'll ever export raw pig ear?
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#12610 at 02-03-2010 06:17 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Howdy stranger! How's life treating you?
You should know, you're one of my Facebook friends! Kiff has already commented upon my choice of lunch.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#12611 at 02-04-2010 02:31 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
A visit to China would accomplish nothing.
It would accomplish the putting-to-rest of the phrase "Red China" that Kevin seems to keep falling back on. Updating one's worldview by two decades seems a pretty reasonable accomplishment to me.

Kevin's like my uncle who kept talking about how we had moved to the Soviet Union. I mean seriously,.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12612 at 02-04-2010 05:18 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by Justin '77 View Post
It would accomplish the putting-to-rest of the phrase "Red China" that Kevin seems to keep falling back on. Updating one's worldview by two decades seems a pretty reasonable accomplishment to me.

Kevin's like my uncle who kept talking about how we had moved to the Soviet Union. I mean seriously,.
I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on that. Took long enough, dinnit?
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#12613 at 02-04-2010 05:11 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Some evidence we're still at the beginning of a 4T: Millennials just not that interested in major reform, even though it affects them more than other generations.

Although, weren't GIs somewhat apathetic during their lifetime, too?







Post#12614 at 02-04-2010 07:30 PM by threegee [at land of Shays' Rebellion joined Mar 2007 #posts 164]
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Quote Originally Posted by Xer H View Post
Some evidence we're still at the beginning of a 4T: Millennials just not that interested in major reform, even though it affects them more than other generations.

Although, weren't GIs somewhat apathetic during their lifetime, too?
While I agree we are at the beginning of a 4T, I disagree with your analysis. The health insurance reform bills in question are weak tea trying to hide some poison pills. That even half supported the reforms speaks very much to their optimism. Ask the youngsters how they feel about reforming health care along the lines of our socialist neighbor to the north, and I suspect the numbers would be different. You can see it in the public option numbers.







Post#12615 at 02-04-2010 07:54 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Quote Originally Posted by threegee View Post
While I agree we are at the beginning of a 4T, I disagree with your analysis. The health insurance reform bills in question are weak tea trying to hide some poison pills. That even half supported the reforms speaks very much to their optimism. Ask the youngsters how they feel about reforming health care along the lines of our socialist neighbor to the north, and I suspect the numbers would be different. You can see it in the public option numbers.
Agreed with most of this. But to add to it, the results fit in with S&H theory. In S&H theory, Boomer health care will receive little public support.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#12616 at 02-04-2010 08:20 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59 View Post
I was wondering when someone was going to pick up on that. Took long enough, dinnit?
I've been meaning to for years. I'm just polite to the point of excess.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#12617 at 02-04-2010 08:44 PM by deafskeptic [at joined Feb 2007 #posts 121]
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Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
More to the point, do you think they'll ever export raw pig ear?
I've seen raw pig ears for sales in the local grocery stores around here. I haven't seen them in a while though.







Post#12618 at 02-05-2010 01:11 AM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by deafskeptic View Post
I've seen raw pig ears for sales in the local grocery stores around here. I haven't seen them in a while though.
Maybe the trade deficit will drop then.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#12619 at 02-05-2010 12:10 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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On Apathy

Apathy has pretty well been with us for the most part ever since the end of the turbulent 60's and Watergate periods. It has often been said that Watergate started the apathy bubble going. I have stated many times that one of the great all-time literary lines "We have met the enemy and they are us" could very well apply here. Most of today's world feels that you can't fight city hall so why bother trying. And while there may be scatter protests over big bank bailouts and excessive corporatocracy, there is nowhere near the level of activism we saw in the earlier period, and what activism does exist usually ends us benefiting corporations more than it does everyday people. Sure, there have been all the major crackdowns on public smoking, drunk driving, sexual harassment, etc., but they have proven in many instances to be fertlie breeding grounds for opportunism.







Post#12620 at 02-06-2010 01:40 AM by takascar2 [at North Side, Chi-Town, 1962 joined Jan 2002 #posts 563]
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Quote Originally Posted by Brian Beecher View Post
The two Daleys are no doubt the top of the lot as far as feudalism and Daley II probably outdoes Daley I. At least under Daley I the city was still affordable to working class people which it is not today except in a few neighborhoods where the murder rate seems to rival that of Baghdad. I still have hopes that now that Chicago didn't win the Olympics that Daley II will finally retire at the end of this term. But maybe that is too much to hope for. He has definitely been all for big business, as you for the most part no longer see any neighborhood bars or luncheonettes especially anywhere close to downtown.
I don't know what you are talking about. Chicago is affordable if you know where to look. Condos in River North are going for less that $250k for 2 bedroom units.

As for neighborhood bars, try The Shamrock Club on Kinzie. Plenty of
them left.

Stop bashing my city. You are short on facts and are taking cheap shots because the Daley's are popular punching bags.







Post#12621 at 02-06-2010 03:38 AM by annla899 [at joined Sep 2008 #posts 2,860]
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Truly Chicago's murder rate in most neighborhoods is not that high and there are many affordable places to live.







Post#12622 at 02-06-2010 12:27 PM by Brian Beecher [at Downers Grove, IL joined Sep 2001 #posts 2,937]
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Don't Get Me Wrong

Don't get me wrong here. I love many things about Chicago, as I live right outside it. But that doesn't mean that I don't think it can do better--just the same as if your child brings home an inferior report card and believe he/she can get better grades. If you can direct me to a "report card" for the city in areas as diverse as employment oppotunities, crime, politics and much more, I would be happy to take a look at it. Or even if you are challenged to make one up I would be glad to respond to it in a future post.

The crime in certain areas does seem to be persistent, and I happen to know someone whose son was murdered four years ago. It received national publicity following the murder of a policeman's son on a bus three years ago. It may in fact not be any worse than many other cities, however.

I do, however, believe that the city should consider the idea of term limits for mayor. After all, having a term limit has not hurt the US Presidency. I did enjoy Chicago more in the days when the majority of it was not quite as upscale as it now is. I say that because I enjoy going to little mom and pop bars, diners, etc. and there are now so many fewer of them and so much more of corporate establishments which I find a bit disturbing.







Post#12623 at 02-07-2010 08:37 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Snowstorm Monikers

On the lighter side, would one sign that We B 4T be the monikers for the recent DC snowstorms -- Snowpocalypse for the December snowstorm (16.7 inches at Reagan National Airport) and Snowmageddon for this weekend's snowstorm (17.8 inches)?

I don't remember these dire monikers for the 1996 snowstorm (17.1 inches -- what I call the "Discovery Zone snowstorm", because I spent hours with my then 15-month old daughter in an indoor playground just 1 mile from my house), and the 2003 snowstorm (when the country was at Code Orange and Secretary Ridge was urging us all to buy duct tape in preparation for the Canadian Invasion.)

Edited to add the link and also note that the Reagan National Airport totals are several inches lower than what most people have recorded. A more typical measure might be those from Dulles International Airport. The Washington Post reported a whopping 32 inches there!
Last edited by The Wonkette; 02-07-2010 at 10:07 AM.
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#12624 at 02-07-2010 11:11 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Doesn't Sarah Palin sound like a demagogue?

1. She attacks the mainstream media. FoX is okay, Capital Cities is okay, but the restof the mainstream media just aren't to be believed.

2. Reckless disregard for reality. The Obama administration got the underpants bomber to talk by bringing his family over from Nigeria, and he talked. He was able to tell who put him up to doing what he did. According to Sarah Palin, it was absolutely terrible that the guy got Miranda Rights -- the same ones that Timothy McVeigh got.

Oh, yes -- Barack Obama is responsible for gigantic deficits... Ha! ha!

If you believe Sarah Palin we would have been wiser to resort to "Ve haff vays to make you talk!"

3. Radical rhetoric. "Are you ready for a revolution?"

4, Anti-intellectualism.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#12625 at 02-07-2010 12:04 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
On the lighter side, would one sign that We B 4T be the monikers for the recent DC snowstorms -- Snowpocalypse for the December snowstorm (16.7 inches at Reagan National Airport) and Snowmageddon for this weekend's snowstorm (17.8 inches)?

I don't remember these dire monikers for the 1996 snowstorm (17.1 inches -- what I call the "Discovery Zone snowstorm", because I spent hours with my then 15-month old daughter in an indoor playground just 1 mile from my house), and the 2003 snowstorm (when the country was at Code Orange and Secretary Ridge was urging us all to buy duct tape in preparation for the Canadian Invasion.)

Edited to add the link and also note that the Reagan National Airport totals are several inches lower than what most people have recorded. A more typical measure might be those from Dulles International Airport. The Washington Post reported a whopping 32 inches there!
Maybe it is the Obamas way of saying that DCers can't handle a "true" winter.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er
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