Kiff--Again, I agree. Juses would pissed as hell! And I really admire him as an historical figure. The messengers of True Belief seem to be distracting us from the real issue here: preserving nature with extreme prejudice.
If I have any true-beliefs at all, it is about the urgency of Wilson's Bottleneck. (Try telling the Pope he should advocate birth control.)
Yes, Marc, please go on. And while you're at it, please tell us how you're going to fix the future with the help of God. He already did His job, didn't He? My guess is He's about had it with us. That may be why He's giving us Wilson's Bottleneck. It's only a few more Ts out ahead. Hold on!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Croaker'39 on 2002-02-01 09:28 ]</font>
Good grief, Croaker, you sound like Jemima Puddle-duck!
This I do know for absolute sure; what's gonna happen matters not one wit to this guy. :smile:
Oh, I loved that! One of the few times a duck was ever useful. Now, I've got to get back to work.
My dog will often react as if he hears something which is inaudible to me. Is the dog hallucinating or does he detect a frequency outside my limited human range of aural perception? My cat will often react as if she sees something which is invisible to me. Is the cat hallucinating or does she detect a wavelength outside my limited human range of visual perception? Why must you assume with finality that something does not exist simply because your limited human senses cannot detect it (unambiguously)?On 2002-02-01 08:38, Croaker'39 wrote:
Well, Stonewall, you overwhelm me with your well-placed words. I think I understand you. You are not an unreasonable person, that?s clear. Whatever, then, allows you to assume a God is not so clear.
I'm not so sure about that. If there is no transcendent Truth either above us or within us (or both), then we are indistinguishable, with respect to morality, from the beast of the field, including your beloved frog. If there is no Truth, then it is simply foolish not to live as predators in extremis so as to ensure our comfort and security at the expense of our fellow man without hesitation and without guilt.If you take God out of everything you say, nothing would change.
However we seem to have a conscience, independent of religious teaching, which discourages pure Machiavellianism on our part. We differ greatly from every other earthly creature in this respect. For that matter, we differ greatly from them with respect to technology. No other creature is building condos and taking GPS readings.
Are we essentially equal to the frog and the pig but only slightly more advanced? Or are we so much more advanced than the frog and the pig that it should cause us to pause and wonder why?
When I look at Creation, I see a gulf so great between us and every other creature that I find it difficult to write it off as some random error. Additionally, our unique predisposition among earthly creatures to even ponder such a thing as morality places us in our own category. We are so far removed in so many ways from every other creature on this earth that surely we serve a different purpose. If this were not true, then surely we would see a number of other creatures here who minimally rival our abilities. But we do not. We are in a league of our own.
In the end, I believe that we are all conscious of a Truth within us. We defy it individually in varying degrees, but it is present nonetheless. And although we may try to blind ourselves to that Truth when we violate it, we remain ever conscious of its presence. That Truth obviously does not come from man. It can only come from God.
I see, and your spooked dog and cat are hallucinating.I have an active Occam?s razor. Shave with it all the time with. And God got hacked off long ago.
No, it's a money issue. It is specifically the CIA which desires it, because it is the CIA which benefits from it, and it will not go away until we make the CIA go away. Use of religious types' opposition to drugs is an effective subterfuge to deflect attention from the source of the problem, thereby ensuring that the problem never goes away. You want the Drug War to go away and I want the Drug War to go away. So let's quit playing games and make the CIA go away.But He?s still around to bother me. The Drug War bothers me, Stonewall, it?s a damn religious issue.
Why do Coca-Cola signs bother you? Can you not ignore them?Christian missionaries bother me like Coca Cola signs.
Christians are far from being the only types through history who have burned books. Books are burned when someone perceives a threat to his hold on power. Most who have burned books through history have not done so to counter a threat to the power of Christianity, although many have claimed this as their motive. Truly, they have only been countering a threat to their puny personal power. Besides, true Christianity places all power in the hands of God. The true Christian is not threatened by any power on this earth and, accordingly, it would never even occur to him to ever burn a book for any reason. The Christian who does is not truly a Christian.Book burnings.
Book burners, without exception, are feeble, pathetic cowards solely looking out for number one. The fact that many dress themselves in the garb of Christianity is no more relevant than their hair color.
Can you not see even the slightest suggestion of a baby within this bath water which you are throwing out?The ablation of millions of young minds at the sacred alters of fear, indoctrinating them with false notions, telling them they?ll go to hell, scaring them with images of death...commuting the death sentence of a killer on account of a visit from the Pope...
I simply tune out hysterical noise. Out of sight, out of mind. Problem solved. Can you not tune out the noise? "Turn your radio on"...AND turn the dial!How are we suppose to face our future, which is all about science and nature, with so much hysterical noise in the background?
c---My model world does not irradiate religion, it renders organized religion unnecessary. Today, it is worse than unnecessary; it?s a counter-evolutionary force. Amphibians, especially, don?t like that. And I don?t believe in science, either; indeed I am out to rid science of its beliefs. I oppose anything that resists learning about evolution. Some religions are very bad for children, ablating their little minds, teaching them glorious things like the 17 virgins, for example, who are servicing the highjackers right now in highjacker heaven. That?s one bad example, but then there is the little Twitchell boy in Boston who died of a colon impaction because his parents were Christian Scientists. I don?t know?
Can you tell me what the value of religion is, apart from whatever else it takes to be a meaningful contributer to humanity?
Cheers to you, Croaker! For crying out loud, you're the only one that got it. Or, perhaps I fear, you're the only one left posting within these threads, with any sense of humor left in their bones.
I truly fear the latter. But I am of a mind that I will not capitulate, I will not surrender, I will not forget how, I will not cease...
<FONT SIZE="+3"><center>To laugh!</FONT></center></
In this light, I remind all who post within thse threads, that this I do know for absolute sure; what's gonna happen matters not one wit to this guy. :smile:
closelh?I?ll cut some slack for people to be insecure about their lives. Who isn?t, to some degree? Religion sells salves for insecurity like Pat Robertson?s wet nurses sell royal jelly for their hemorrhoids. Religion is the un-blamed cause of many evil doings. People don?t question their religions because they were taught as tadpoles that any loss of faith will send them off to hell faster than a Louisiana road kill on a hot summer day. My uncle Webfoot LaRue died that way--run over by a Sunday school bus--just as he was evolving into a reptile.
Evolve or die, choselh. Darwin answers more questions about how The Creator did His job than my old dog-eared Bible (which I happen to love!). That little church metaphor that Marc refers to is probably true. But I don?t BELIEVE IN SCIENCE anymore than I believe in my handy sailor?s tool bag. Good scientists will tell you that science is all about exploding beliefs, particularly there own.
Choselh, you are a clear-headed, sensitive, intelligent person, who knows what?s right. Do you want to teach the children useful knowledge about life or disturbing myths about death? (One of my children is re-born, so I should talk.) I want to teach them enough about biology to overcome Wilson?s Bottleneck. Not a single religion I know of gives one lip of service to this dreadful concern. It?s bigger than WTC, 911, WWII, NYSE, and anything else we?ve ever worried about. But, no, it?s Jesus as usual for God-Bless-America!
The thoughtful, humorous, and penetrating remarks posted here and elsewhere never cease to encourage me that few thinkers out there are as concerned as I about the mess we?re in. Thanks.
Stonewall: If this were not true, then surely we would see a number of other creatures here who minimally rival our abilities. But we do not. We are in a league of our own.
Mike: We would had we not killed them off. Neanderthals had brains slightly larger than our own, used fire and took care of their sick and injured. Were they still alive today we would probably identify them as being a different species from us, considerably closer to us in abilities (although still inferior) than the Great Apes.
Good discussion here.
Fundamentalist Christians preach morals, but their definition of "morals" is a different animal altogether than true morals.
Animals, as you have said, Choselh, posess true morality. Enlightened, intelligent humans, whether Christian or not, practice morals of this sort and it never becomes a "don't do this, don't do that, God will punish you" sort of thing. Animals, at least mammals, care for their young and evidently feel something akin to "love." They can develop friendships and loyalty. We can see this in our pets. Animal morality is life-enhancing and benefits the species.
Being concerned about the environment and preserving a livable planet is an example of animal morality--it benefits and nurtures ours--and all species. At least until science makes it possible for us to build or discover another earth-like planet, we are stuck here on our little third rock from the sun, dependent on the earth and what it gives us. Our duty is to take care of it--and each other--as best we can. We are here to steward and respect the planet, not trash it in the name of profit or short-term gain.
The problem with what many define as "morality" is that it is not life-enhancing and does not benefit us as a species. They say sexual thoughts and deeds are sinful, caring about the earth too much and acknowledging your ties to nature is a sin because we are "superior" to animals, speaking your mind is a sin, being a "secular humanist" is a sin, etc., etc. Watch out for God's wrath and you better pray to be saved by a dead man or He will send you to Hell when you die. (Does God pay Satan a salary for "dealing with" the sinners and unsaved?)
Sorry if this sounds blasphemous and offensive to the Christians who post here (and not all Christians are like this); I don't mean it to be. I'm just trying to make a point.
Many of these right-wing Christians see nothing wrong at all with corporate greed, building more and better weapons to kill each other with, raping the earth God gave us to make ever more room for more Wal-Marts, more McDonalds, more Enrons, more and bigger financial institutions, more super-highways and oil-drilling plants. All in the name of financial gain and corporate expansion.
But wasn't it Jesus himself who threw the money-changers out of the temple? Who was friends with the poor and infirm, and detested human greed? Who said the poor and meek are "blessed"? What fundamentalist Christianity has become in America has nothing to do with this. Most right-wing Christians are blind to the hypocrisy here. In fact, they have become associated very much with what Jesus himself hated so much. They are the modern Pharisees.
What is morality if it does not enhance and nurture the life God has made?
An aside here--my daughter, age 8, has been "saved" by Jesus. She attends a Baptist church here every Sunday and goes to Bible classes with AWANA. I respect her decision and faith and think this may be very good for her. At the same time, I am trying to give her a balanced viewpoint, and teach her that it's possible to have true (life-enhancing, not denying), morals and also be a Christian. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I think Dave '71 is an excellent example of an indidivual who is a Christian and also understands this truth.
Sorry, once in a while I like to get up on my Boomer soapbox! Forgive me.
Susan, what is AWANA? :???:On 2002-02-02 11:46, Susan Brombacher wrote:
An aside here--my daughter, age 8, has been "saved" by Jesus. She attends a Baptist church here every Sunday and goes to Bible classes with AWANA. I respect her decision and faith and think this may be very good for her.
Promise not to laugh.On 2002-02-02 19:02, Jenny Genser wrote:
Susan, what is AWANA? :???:On 2002-02-02 11:46, Susan Brombacher wrote:
An aside here--my daughter, age 8, has been "saved" by Jesus. She attends a Baptist church here every Sunday and goes to Bible classes with AWANA. I respect her decision and faith and think this may be very good for her.
Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed.
I have no idea what this means. Basically, it's an organization of boys' and girls' clubs modeled after the Boy and Girl Scouts, with heavy emphasis on Bible study.
I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with my daughter's becoming saved yet, but I'm working on it. She's been working on me too. We'll see what happens.
Is human evolution finally over?
'If you want to know what Utopia is like, just look around - this is it,' said Professor Steve Jones, of University College London, who is to present his argument at a Royal Society Edinburgh debate, 'Is Evolution Over?', next week. 'Things have simply stopped getting better, or worse, for our species.'
What's with this, Croaker, science (like liberalism) run amuck? :lol:
"There is a premium on sharpness of mind and the ability to accumulate money. Such people tend to have more children...." Mr. Christopher WellsOn 2002-02-03 14:56, Marc S. Lamb wrote:
Is human evolution finally over?
'If you want to know what Utopia is like, just look around - this is it,' said Professor Steve Jones, of University College London, who is to present his argument at a Royal Society Edinburgh debate, 'Is Evolution Over?', next week. 'Things have simply stopped getting better, or worse, for our species.'
Is this so? I have my doubts
Marc--
Pierre Baldi, the Director of the Institute for Genomics and Bioinformaics at UC-Irvine, thinks that we are approaching "the end of natural evolution." In his new book, The Shattered Self:
http://shop.barnesandnoble.com/books...sbn=0262025027
he explains his theory that we are moving from an organic to a computerized existence, where biological evolution ends and cyberized evolution begins. Startling, if you happen to think heaven and hell are the pnly two spots to visit after you die. Ah, but there will be electromagnetic post-existence, with virtual harrassment, where I can bother you for eternity, or forever, which ever comes first...that is, if you're not in heaven with the Christians. Actually, we're already there in a way, because the only things that runs between you and me are electrons...not to mention the holy words of truth and other stuff we say to stir up things up a little.
Croaker, perhaps you jest here but your comment is very amusing in light of everything else you have stated on this thread. Your argument has jumped around a bit and it frankly has been hard to follow. But you have clearly made it a point to brand anyone who would not buy your arbitrarily chosen version of evolution from start to finish as "insecure." However here you reference your desire to harrass someone for eternity. The irrational desire to harrass anybody at all stems from insecurity and the incredibly irrational desire to harrass anybody for eternity stems from profound insecurity. It sounds like you need some sort of rock to lean on to help you overcome your insecurities, Croaker. A little religion might do you good.On 2002-02-04 06:15, Croaker'39 wrote:
To Marc:
Ah, but there will be electromagnetic post-existence, with virtual harrassment, where I can bother you for eternity, or forever, which ever comes first...that is, if you're not in heaven with the Christians.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
For the recent debate on organized religion....
http://www.crankymediaguy.com/commentary.html
Worship THIS, Mofo!
By Robert Pagani
I'm mad. I'm angry. I'm pissed off. And I'm not going to take it anymore. This past September 11th, religious fanatics, acting on what they believed to be orders from God, attacked the United States. That sucks royally. What sucks every bit as much, though, is that home-grown, corn-fed fanatics have seized upon those attacks as an excuse to impose their own "God ordained" rules and regs on the citizenry.
While the public is understandably frightened about what might come next, the power-addled Pricks of the Potomac are working overtime to come up with ways to chisel away at our freedoms. Under the guise of "security", the Feds keep sticking their noses further and further into things that, up 'til a few months ago, most people kept in the None Of Your Damn Business file. The Big Irony of this all, of course, is that most of these "security" initiatives are coming from people who call themselves "conservatives", which should mean that they are advocates for small government which stays out of people's private lives.
I got to thinking about this. I thought about "conservatives" and right-wing "Christians". I thought about Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blaming the attacks on feminists, homosexuals and the ACLU. I thought about the repressive policies of an Attorney General who also happens to be a religious fanatic. Then I thought about what I believed.
Despite 12 years of Catholic education, I have described myself as an agnostic most of my life. I think the turning point was when I was kicked out of a confessional booth at age 11 by a priest who told me to "come back when you know what you're talking about". I can take a hint; you don't have to hit me over the head with a pipe wrench. I never went back.
So, as I've watched people who claim to worship Jesus attempt to shove their we-have-to-give-up-some-of-our-freedoms- in-order-to-protect-them "logic" down my throat, I realized that I do actually have a deep belief in something. I also realized that two can play at this religion game.
I honestly, deeply, passionately believe in the U.S. Constitution. I have said for many years now that it is the finest document ever produced by man. Some people might choose to use the term "divinely inspired". Suit yourself. I have no problem with that. It is my belief that the Founding Fathers would collectively projectile vomit if they could see what the current iteration of Federal government is attempting to do in the name of "security". There is every indication that one of their primary intents in framing the Constitution was to protect the citizenry from abuses by the government. On that, I stand foursquare with T.J., G.W. and the rest of the boys. They understood that tyranny creeps in in increments while people are concerned with other things. Remember that thing about eternal vigilance being the price of freedom? Did you think that only referred to the military and threats from outside our borders?
I hereby announce the formation of the Church of the American Constitution. Members of other churches are "conscientious objectors" when it comes to joining the military or getting blood transfusions. The members of the C.A.C. are conscientious objectors when it comes to idiotic, intrusive nonsense like "facial recognition" and national ID cards. Yeah, I know that George W. Bush has said that he's "against" the idea of a national ID card, but how long do you suspect that opposition will last next time some guy heeds a Bat-phone call from Allah telling him to fly a jumbo jet into something?
I'm not carrying any damn national ID card and I'm not going to any Super Bowls that require my photograph to be added into some Mystery Database. Sorry, no can do, it's against my religion. You can try to force me, I guess, but I'll have to file a discrimination suit against you. Other religions have the Ten Commandments. Ours has the Ten Amendments.
What's required to become a member of the C.A.C. is a sincere belief in the American Constitution and an unwillingness to relinquish your rights as outlined in it. Whether you believe in Jesus, Allah, Buddha or None Of The Above is your business. If you choose to believe that the Constitution was divinely inspired, knock yourself out. That's fine, just so you do believe passionately in it and refuse to give up your personal freedom to any entity, public or private. No, it won't be a "sin" if you have to visit Ybor City, Florida (where they point cameras at everyone in an idiotically misguided attempt at "security"), but you get Heavenly Brownie Points if you tell them where they can put their cameras.
Government in a democracy may be defined as "those who have temporary license to operate in the interest of the public". Members of the C.A.C. refuse to acknowledge that we have given even temporary license to anyone to intrude into matters of a strictly personal nature, even in the name of "security". To do so would violate our religious beliefs.
Media critic Mark Crispin Miller says, "Look, most people are terrified. In times of national trauma, people have a tendency to sink to their knees in reverence. They want a president to be their father." Fear is an understandable emotion in the current environment, but with all due respect, Mr. President, I already HAD a Daddy. Besides, if I am going to fall to my knees (not likely, but hypothetically), it would be to the Founding Fathers, not you.
Think I'm kidding about this church thing? I'm not. I'm dead serious. It's time to say that this intrusive nonsense has to stop. Since the Big Brothers in Washington don't seem to understand secular civil libertarian arguments, let's give them a religious one. Fed up yet with the growing intrusion in your personal life? Got the balls to join a kick-ass, take-no-prisoners church? I'm working out the details. Email me, we'll take it from there.
Barbara:
That sounds like my kind of church. And what's more, it is right in line with Jesus' teachings. You'd never know that judging from so many who claim to be Christians today, would you?
Thanks, Susan for the thought, though I'm still learning more and more and more about the Truth, I never stop learning. Each time I get bombared with a "trouble," if solved, I hope to come another step closer.An aside here--my daughter, age 8, has been "saved" by Jesus. She attends a Baptist church here every Sunday and goes to Bible classes with AWANA. I respect her decision and faith and think this may be very good for her. At the same time, I am trying to give her a balanced viewpoint, and teach her that it's possible to have true (life-enhancing, not denying), morals and also be a Christian. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I think Dave '71 is an excellent example of an indidivual who is a Christian and also understands this truth.
In regards to Morality: I don't really believe in defining morality, because I believe that it is written upon each of our hearts, indelibly. And by actually defining morality, we actually lose understanding of its root source. Much of that loss of understanding is within the media-apparent fundamentalist christian community, the same people that Croaker is understandably so PO'd toward. Some of these folks are very much like the modern-day Pharasees, IMHO.
Now on the other hand, it is my belief that children are a part of their parent's body/spirit until they separate into adulthood, so they must be taught lessons specifically. And of course, "by example" is such the best method for any teaching to another including our children. But what do I know, I only work with kids, I haven't had any yet!
From the Gospel of Mary:
9) That is why He loved her more than us. Rather let us be ashamed and put on the perfect Man, and separate as He commanded us and preach the gospel, not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said.
10) And when they heard this they began to go forth to proclaim and to preach.
One of the amazing things about this quote from the Gospel of Mary is the phrase "and separate as He commanded us." This implies that as Christians we are to separate in order to spread the Word; and that by separating, the Word stays true. I think that by confining ourselves into defineable groups or sects we actually may corrode the truth. Remember the Fellowship in the LOTR, it became essential that they did separate. This type of Fellowship seems more true than any modern-day religion.
And of course the line "not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said" has some awesome counterintuitive implications.
Yes, I'm experiencing some "awesome counterintuitive implications" right now, somewhere in my sub-reptilian brain.
Okay, I can't resist asking this. Does that imply that the rest of the New Testament (Paul's letters, etc.) can or should be discounted? Can you be a "Christian" by just following what's in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?On 2002-02-04 12:44, Dave'71 wrote:
And of course the line "not laying down any other rule or other law beyond what the Savior said" has some awesome counterintuitive implications.
I'm not trying to be facetious or disrespectful here. As a person who was not raised in the Christian faith and who has stumbled along in studying it on her own, I'm curious.
Kiff '61
Paul's writings were simply letters to people who were searching for help. They were writings to specific groups. Not all things should be said to all people. I talk English to you, and wouldn't speak to you in the tounge of the Inca.On 2002-02-04 13:48, Kiff '61 wrote:
Okay, I can't resist asking this. Does that imply that the rest of the New Testament (Paul's letters, etc.) can or should be discounted? Can you be a "Christian" by just following what's in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John?
I'm not trying to be facetious or disrespectful here. As a person who was not raised in the Christian faith and who has stumbled along in studying it on her own, I'm curious.
Kiff '61
Paul's writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth, just like your writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth. It is my belief that Jesus' words contained the total truth, but his words are one, two and sometimes even three and more times removed. This is why he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit contains all the truth, but our hearts must be open to hear it: "For those who have ears to hear." The Bible is not Jesus. The Bible is not God. The Bible is not the Holy Spirit. But the Bible most likely contains some of each of these. The Bible also contains aspects of contemptable Man. To some, the Bible has become an Idol, just like those things that Jesus called on us not to worship.
Be careful, Croaker. This has been known to launch some paedomorphs into adulthood.On 2002-02-04 13:33, Croaker'39 wrote:
Yes, I'm experiencing some "awesome counterintuitive implications" right now, somewhere in my sub-reptilian brain.
Thank you, Dave, for your thoughtful answer. I have gotten frustrated with so many religious fundamentalists for the very reasons you described, and it is refreshing to see another point of view.On 2002-02-04 14:18, Dave'71 wrote:
Paul's writings were simply letters to people who were searching for help. They were writings to specific groups. Not all things should be said to all people. I talk English to you, and wouldn't speak to you in the tounge of the Inca.
Paul's writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth, just like your writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth. It is my belief that Jesus' words contained the total truth, but his words are one, two and sometimes even three and more times removed. This is why he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit contains all the truth, but our hearts must be open to hear it: "For those who have ears to hear." The Bible is not Jesus. The Bible is not God. The Bible is not the Holy Spirit. But the Bible most likely contains some of each of these. The Bible also contains aspects of contemptable Man. To some, the Bible has become an Idol, just like those things that Jesus called on us not to worship.
Kiff '61
Stonewall--is this mumbo-jumbo any clearer than my mumbo-jumbo?On 2002-02-04 14:18, Dave'71 wrote:
Paul's writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth, just like your writing contains some (maybe lots of) truth. It is my belief that Jesus' words contained the total truth, but his words are one, two and sometimes even three and more times removed. This is why he gave us the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit contains all the truth, but our hearts must be open to hear it: "For those who have ears to hear." The Bible is not Jesus. The Bible is not God. The Bible is not the Holy Spirit. But the Bible most likely contains some of each of these. The Bible also contains aspects of contemptable Man. To some, the Bible has become an Idol, just like those things that Jesus called on us not to worship.
