Contrast the four Ps above with an ?ber-J like Hillary Clinton (INTJ, I would think). Hillary makes up her mind what she wants to do and does not care in the least whose toes she steps on or whose space she invades. You will comply, knave, and you have no say in the matter. It is at this point that an INTP such as myself dons flame-retardant gear, a gas mask, and whatever else I need to do battle with her. I defend my space and the spaces of others from her unwarranted and unwelcome intrusion while citing God-given or natural rights and pointing to her violations of natural law. And it is a battle to the death. Neither one of us is casual or easy-going in this milieu but there clearly is both a J and a P present. The P is defending the boundaries of legitimate authority while the J is trying to overrun them.

I am lot like Hillary Clinton when I feel I am right, I do not care about any of merits of opposite position and will fight them all the way. :wink:

Someone said that intuitive types are more attracted to T4T theory and I would agree. Sensing types seem to be more practical, more concerned with actual facts and details.

When I take the MB, I come out ENXP with the P and J also being very close. I've read the descriptions of both ENFP and ENTP. ENFP sounds more like me at home; ENTP sounds more like me at work. But then I read how neither type typically leads nor enjoys leading and here I've been in management for several years. All of which causes me to question whether this tool is a truly comprehensive measurement of temperment and personality.

However, I'll assume there is some validity. I think I come out more P than J because even though I'm fairly organized and can make decisions, I'm pretty nonconformist and like to change policies/procedures and break a few rules. I usually believe that I know a better way.

Neisha, I thought I remembered that you are ENTJ, classic leader type?

Has anyone ever polled people in the forum for their type?

Good memory, Donna, about six months or so ago, when Robert Reed or someone first posted the Keirsey site and we all took the test, I kept sliding back and forth between E and I. The first time I was an ENTJ. I read the description and it didn't sound like me at all! Then I took it again and was an INTJ. I was much relieved. So, I thought I was more of an XNTJ. At that point in time I was arguing in court a lot and was chief negotiator of our union bargaining team, so I had to exercize E skills a lot.

This time I turned out to be more of an INTX, which I think may actually be more my true type. I read the descriptions for both INTJ and INTP and they both sound like certain aspects of my personality. The ENTJ description really didn't fit at all!

[quote]
On 2001-10-20 22:19, madscientist wrote:
What is your MBTI personality type? And birth year?

_________________

INTP, 1939, female.

On 2001-10-28 22:29, Neisha '67 wrote:
That *really* helps! I am *obsessive* about protecting my boundaries. The one thing that upsets me more than *anything* else is when someone tells me what to do/tries to get me to do things their way. Even if I agree with the substance of what they are saying, I will fight with them about it anyway because they are trying to impose their will on me. Meddlers in general annoy me to no end, even if it's not my affair in which they are meddling. I mean, who gives them the right, you know?

The reason I consistently score J is because I am naturally tidy and organized. I keep an orderly space and show up on time for things. If I say I will do something, I do it and in a timely fashion. However, I like to keep my options open and I am comfortable in chaos.

I wonder if there is a gender thing going on as well. I mean, how many female INTPs are there? INTP's are only about 1 percent of the population, right? Well, of that 1 percent, I'll bet 90% are male. That leaves, what, like 100 of us INTP women on the whole planet (no I didn't do the actual math, but I could)? Yeah, I'm Smurfette to all you Trekkie guys. And I did feel that way in high school. I actually went to an all womens college just so I could have some female friends! Anyway, my point is that if you're an INTP female, you've got to conform somewhere in order to just fit into society. Maybe my way of being more socially acceptable was to be more outwardly organized. I don't know, just a thought.

Are there any other INTP women on these boards? I've lost track. Angeli and Susan, are you guys both INFPs? Geez, if there are no INTP women here, in the land of INTPs, than I really AM a freak!

Neisha - I'm one. And Silent Generation to boot. I didn't HAVE any friends until the Unraveling started! As for being freaks - one of my favorite books, which I use as a self-help book even though it's an autobiography, is "Pretending to be Normal" by Liane Holliday Willey, PhD. And if she isn't INTP, I'll eat every page. :wink:

Two female INTPs? This is incredible. Can there possibly be another one in the world?

You two ought to join the carnival and set up next to the bearded lady...only kidding! But it seems like you two ought to be enough of a novelty to qualify.

I went to http://www.personalitytype.com and I'm an ESTP. Extroverted...sensing...thinking...perceiving. I wasn't really clear on whether I was a T or an F type...like a thinking type, I'm honest and direct and naturally critical, I don't try to be diplomatic or just please others, but like a feeling type, I get my feelings hurt easily and am motivated by a need for acceptance rather than by "achievement". But I checked the descriptions for ESTP and ESFP and ESTP sounds like me while ESFP clearly doesn't, so that's how I could find out for sure.

-Craig

On 2001-11-03 17:46, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Two female INTPs? This is incredible. Can there possibly be another one in the world?

You two ought to join the carnival and set up next to the bearded lady...only kidding! But it seems like you two ought to be enough of a novelty to qualify.


Check out http://www.eekafreak.con :}

As I recall from reading about Meyers-Briggs people tend to develop their undeveloped side in midlife, becoming more rounded in personality. In my case-I tested INFJ-I am tending more towards Thinking. However, I am still treated as an imbecile by my family, probably because I have been strongly Intuitive. In the book Transitions it was stated that many people don't come into their own until their lives are half or three-quarters over-I wonder how many of these are, or were, strongly Intuitve. I suspect that Sensors have an advantage in getting a start in life with their here-and-now orientation.

I agree, Tim. Sensors also constitute a whopping 80% of the population, giving them, and their influence, a dominant position.

I find that when I'm having trouble communicating with someone, it is usually because they are sensing and I am intuitive. The differences in the thinking process and what facts and issues are attended to are huge.

Neisha, I do have a good memory, don't I? I remembered you initially scored ENTJ because at the time we were using this test at work and many colleagues of mine came out ENTJ.

What I'm still wondering is to what extent MB type predicts leadership? Ideas, anyone?

ENTJs are often called superleaders because they very easily rise to leadership positions. ESTJs, ESFJs, and ENFJs also often rise to leadership positions. ENTJs are the best strategic organizers of all types. ESTJs make very good military leaders, and are very practical. ESFJs (like ESTJs) are often pillars of their community. They are leaders of traditional values, and are very good with people. The ENFJ is also a leader type, and they are often able to manipulate people, but their reasons are usually good. ENFJs are often VERY popular with people. To add to this, they can make very good religious figures with large followings.

On 2001-11-05 11:04, Donna Sherman wrote:

What I'm still wondering is to what extent MB type predicts leadership? Ideas, anyone?

Donna, I am not fresh on the material, but I do not recollect that MB theory puts forth one type over all others as the best leader. However it does demonstrate what leadership skills each type offers. I can put together a few examples off the top of my head:


INTP: I start with this because it is the one to which you and I, being INTPs, can most relate. We are that third category. We are the least likely to blindly follow anybody. On the other hand, we have no desire to lead anybody. Perhaps we would rather be the ruler's chief advisor? We are strategic thinkers (Ti & Ne) and we can be charismatic when confident given that we extrovert feeling. We do our own thinking and can improvise and are not dependent upon a team of advisors who may mislead us. We are our own man and nobody's puppet. We possibly make the fairest, most objective, most principled, and most honest leaders as we are the best able to remove ourselves and our own self-interest from any equation. However we generally do not want the responsibility and we do not want our options limited with this sort of commitment. We are Plato's unwilling rulers and philosopher-kings. As a consequence, we are likely only to be found as leaders in times of revolutionary crisis. And in the event that we do lead in such a circumstance, we are looking for the nearest exit so as to pass the baton to someone else such that we can get back to living our lives on our own time in freedom.


ENTP: I suspect Bill Clinton was an ENTP, albeit a "dysfunctional" one (I hate that word "dysfunctional" but I do not know what else to use). An ENTP can be extremely charismatic given that he is dominant Ne and extroverts feeling (to a greater and healthier degree than an INTP given that Fe is third to ENTP and fourth to INTP). Ne and Ti give him strategic vision. He is his own man, does his own thinking, can improvise, and is not dependent upon a team of advisors. An ENTP is the strongest advocate as he is essentially an intuitive salesman. Of course this mastery of advocacy can cut both ways depending on how honest he is: an ENTP can be a brilliant leader, but in the worst case he is a master con artist, e.g. Bill Clinton and Rush Limbaugh. In many respects, I see the ENTP as the best candidate for principled, charismatic leadership. But he must be honest. I suspect the dishonest ENTP master con artist is the extreme exception to the rule but obviously they are out there. IMO, An ENTP can be either the world's greatest leader or the world's greatest demagogue depending on his degree of honesty.


ESTP: I see John McCain as an ESTP. The ESTP is typically a salesman. He can be charismatic. An ESTP is likely to be less principled but can improvise very well. It really is a question, as it is with all salesmen, whether he is honest or not. The worst will sell ice to Eskimos but there certainly are honest salesmen out there. Because the ESTP relies upon Se as opposed to Ne, he is less likely to be as brilliant a leader as the ENTP, but he is also less likely to successfully pull off being a master con artist (he will be caught out before the ENTP).


ESFP/ISFP: I see George W. Bush as one or the other. These types are laid back and casual. I do not think they generally have any desire to lead and George W. Bush actually honestly represented himself in this way through the campaign -- that is, when he was not repeating his handlers' scripted lines: "I can lead! I am a leader!" These types are great at working with people although I do not think that charismatic applies. ESFPs and ISFPs are just "cool." They are casual, content to do their own thing and not lead (they'd rather follow). So I am not sure how George W. Bush can ever be GC material on his own merits. His handlers would have to pull off a propaganda coup.


INTJ: This has to be Hillary Clinton. I suspect that the INTJ is the strongest, most forceful leader. But he is probably also the most polarizing figure. If he is on your side, great. But if not, watch out. I do not think that charisma applies as feeling is not extroverted. But an INTJ has an iron will. Whereas the worst ENTP is probably the demagogue, the worst INTJ is probably the ruthless tyrant. But a good INTJ can always be counted upon to get the job done more than any other type. The negative side is that he will always produce very ardent opposition and the best INTJ will probably not even understand what produced the opposition in the first place.


ENTJ: This is supposedly the "Field Marshal." He, like the INTJ, can be counted upon to get the job done more than other types. Charisma does not apply. The ENTJ is an empirical thinker and a dominant thinker at that. So I suspect that he is probably dependent upon a team of advisors in order to deviate from course or improvise in any way. The downside of an ENTJ would perhaps be an inability to see alternate avenues but I tend to think that the worst ENTJ is probably not as ruthless as the worst INTJ.


ESFJ/ISFJ: I see George H.W. Bush (Senior) as one or the other although I am not sure that he is a good example of one. These types will probably be better at working with people although I am not certain that charisma applies. They tend not to be creative or innovative. They are best suited to maintaining stability. And I am not certain that they generally aspire to leadership.


ESTJ/ISTJ: Similar to ESFJ/ISFJ but less sensitive to offending or hurting others. Thus they are that much better at maintaining stability. Again, creativity and innovation are not strong suits, nor is charisma. But these types probably have the steadiest hand on the tiller. These are typically your bankers, accountants and corporate ladder-climbers. Dependability, reliability, and stability are their strong suits. They are ready and willing to lead, in the manner that they do, after advancing through the ranks of some sort of hierarchy.


ISTP: These are typically auto mechanics, house carpenters, and ball players. Like the INTP, they are less willing to lead. And similarly, they are less willing to follow. They perhaps just want to lead their lives on their own terms and stay out of your hair. So they do not aspire to leadership.


ENFJ/INFJ/ENFP/INFP: These are the only four left and it seems to me that they do not aspire to leadership. I cannot remember enough to break them down individually, but many lean toward spiritual leadership or guidance. They are given more to promoting self-actualization. They are probably willing to follow the lead of someone they find acceptable but I think they will oppose others on humane terms. I guess the short answer is that they are not secular leaders nor are they ardent opponents. Others can certainly do descriptions of these types more justice than I.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2001-11-05 13:21 ]</font>

Yay! Another one female INTP! Actually, I am still not convinced I'm completely P. I think I am really INTX. One of my roommates in law school was a very strong INTP. She holed herself up in her room playing computer games and studying all the time (more the former than the latter). I love her dearly and she's still my best friend (mostly because we get each other). But, my busy-body SJ roommates were constantly reminding her to eat, do her laundry, wear something other than what she slept in, etc. Having P tendencies myself, I was the least bothered by this and pretty much let her do her thing. But it did start to bug me when the moldy yogurt containers ended up on *my* futon! The J emerges!

She is currently an absolutely brilliant trial lawyer fighting the good fight doing private attorney general work on behalf of the people of California. The cases she does are extremely complex and technical, allowing her to hole up again and exercize her NT. She's also a master strategist (the strong N). She now works as a sole practitioner, so she can work from home in her sweats and not have to deal with annoying supervisors/underlings. A few years ago, every big firm in the Bay Area was trying to get her to come over to the dark side. She sent them all wicked rejection letters modeled after the ones the firms send to law students, wishing them good luck in their future endeavors, etc.

Compared to her, I am a pretty weak INTP!

Pat have you ever read anything by A.S. Byatt? She's got to be an INTP. I recommend "Possession" or, especially, "The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye."

On 2001-11-05 15:10, Neisha '67 wrote:

Pat have you ever read anything by A.S. Byatt? She's got to be an INTP. I recommend "Possession" or, especially, "The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye."

This INTP seconds Possession and
The Biographer's Tale which seemed to be a record of such an INTP's way in the world.


And, if you fancy; you might try Ms. Byatt's
sister's account of what growing up was like in The Peppered Moth by Ms. Margaret Drabble. HTH

My guess is that the set of Star Trek convention-goers would widely intersect with the INTP set.

As in INFP, I care a great deal about human potential being fully realized. I hate to see suffering. And I feel intense dislike for just about no one; I love peace and quiet and am easily razzled. I will go to great lengths to avoid hurting others' feelings or arousing angers and negative vibes. I hate arguments because I know I will always lose. My sense of humor is a bit bizarre and I am too shy to share it with many people, who think that I am a very serious and even chilly person. But nothing could be further from the truth :smile: . Actually I have a rich internal world of daydreams and ongoing musical compositions and crazy fantasies. While pipetting away or walking down the street I am the crazy one who will be grinning madly at nothing obviously in particular, amused by whatever is floating across the psyche.

In school my best classes were language/writing classes, although today what I do is involves a high level of technical expertise. This technical work is done to improve what I see as deficiencies in my person (ie., I am perversely attracted to "hard" things not easy things) and to avenge the deaths of family members due to cancer.

I passionately want to do good, and, even as a cynical x'er want to "change the world." However, high on my list of values is individual freedom so I want to CHANGE THE WORLD (!) but not FORCE anyone to go along with me. Perverse, ay? Oh well just many of the idiosynchrasies and conflicts inherant in INFP's like me.

On 2001-11-05 18:07, jcarson71 wrote:

I passionately want to do good, and, even as a cynical x'er want to "change the world." However, high on my list of values is individual freedom so I want to CHANGE THE WORLD (!) but not FORCE anyone to go along with me. Perverse, ay? Oh well just many of the idiosynchrasies and conflicts inherant in INFP's like me.

That is a wonderful statement and I can relate to the sentiment. But as I pointed out to Robert earlier, tests indicate that INTPs have an unusually strong Fi for some reason. So it might be fair to say that there is a fair degree of INFP in every INTP. Glad to have you on the side of freedom though!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2001-11-05 18:34 ]</font>

jcarson, I laughed out loud when you talked about being the one walking down the street grinning for no particular reason.

A few months after starting my first job at a law firm consisting of a disproportionate number of INTPs, one of the partners, an INTP himself, pulled me aside. I saw you at walking outside around lunch today, he said, I would have said hello, but you were so engrossed in coversation with yourself that I did not want to disturb you. Oh, no, how embarrassing, I said. Why, he asked, genuinely perplexed at my embarrassment.

Of course, the firm never did particularly well, the partners didn't really like to work together, or do any marketing to get clients, or train associates, or fire incompetent support staff, or record their time, etc. Great lawyers, lousy business people!

Man. Wish I could say I am INTP but really that E won't go away . . . I'm either ENTP or ENFP all the way. But I still can relate along analytical lines with INTP and the other NT types.

Although maybe I shouldn't admit to ENTP after reading Stonewall's post about leadership and Bill Clinton in particular. Hey, I can be an honest leader . . . just a little bit, uh, rebellious. Heh. Yeah, that's it.

On 2001-11-06 21:40, Donna Sherman wrote:

Although maybe I shouldn't admit to ENTP after reading Stonewall's post about leadership and Bill Clinton in particular. Hey, I can be an honest leader . . . just a little bit, uh, rebellious. Heh. Yeah, that's it.

LOL! Hey, I stated that ENTPs make the best leaders, in my opinion! It just depends on how honest he or she is. But if you are ENTP, do you see Clinton as something different?

Probably the best description for me is ISTP, also fairly good are ISFP and ISTJ.

INTJ here...1959

So has anyone tried to correlate MBTI personality types to S&H generational archetypes? That would be one way to validate at least part of the theory, and would also might be useful to identify the boundaries of the generations.

I'm not sure if we can match up personality types to generations from the sample here, because the forum seems heavily weighted toward the INFJ, INTJ, INTP, and INFP types, who are not a majority in the world as a whole.

Stonewall, why do you think Clinton is an ENTP. I always thought he was an ENFP. He's always getting misty and "feeling [others'] pain." Plus people who have met him say he exudes warmth and makes you feel like you are the most fascinating person in the world. I would think most Ts would have a tough time pulling this off. Furthermore, he has an insatiable desire to be loved, which seems more F than T. Hillary, is, no doubt, a T, but I'm thinking that Bill is an F.

On 2001-11-08 21:03, Neisha '67 wrote:
Stonewall, why do you think Clinton is an ENTP. I always thought he was an ENFP. He's always getting misty and "feeling [others'] pain." Plus people who have met him say he exudes warmth and makes you feel like you are the most fascinating person in the world. I would think most Ts would have a tough time pulling this off. Furthermore, he has an insatiable desire to be loved, which seems more F than T. Hillary, is, no doubt, a T, but I'm thinking that Bill is an F.

Neisha, you may be right. It is just so hard to tell how much is an act and how much is real. I used to think he had to be an F and probably an ENFP. However when I got to see him engage in verbal gymnastics some more, I became convinced that he must be an ENTP.

Take his deft dancing with the meaning of the word 'is' and also his repeated clever response in the present tense that he "is not having an affair" when Jim Lehrer kept asking him if he "had ever had" an affair with Monica. There are many other examples. I as an INTP can see all the angles just as they appear to him. But the difference is that, as an INTP, I have that bar which prevents me from exploiting those angles as it is against my principles. Because I see all these things such that I am onto him every step of the way, I tend to think that he must be using Ne and Ti as well. Assuming that he is an E, I have come to see him as an ENTP (and he certainly does not seem like an INTP).

Maybe that is just Ne working and he could still be an ENFP. I do not know. But I would be willing to bet that he is an ENTP who is more or less out of control and would do or say anything to further his advantage -- perhaps unlike any other ENTP in the world. Remember that an ENTP is the best advocate in that he is essentially an intuitive salesman who can get inside your mind. That is what Bill Clinton does better than anybody. Hence the "feeling your pain," etc. And do not forget that an ENTP extroverts feeling so there is no conflict here. That business is just a well-rehearsed shuck and jive designed to get into women's pants anyway. I was finally forced to conclude that he is probably an utterly unscrupulous ENTP and thus one of the world's greatest con artists. But I am not certain that I know enough about ENFP to rule it out.