On 2001-11-13 22:32, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Rich, I was searching this thread for URLs to testing sites and found an earlier post of yours:

I forget when I took the test, on the old threads. I think I was INTJ, close to INFJ.

If you were way over toward 100% with your N but close to 50% with your T, then this would suggest that N is your dominant function such that you would be an INTJ. As shown on this thread, Keirsey's test is sufficiently imprecise that this rule does not always hold true (even though it should). But if you really are far over with N and that close to 50/50 with your T, then I would really think that you are an INTJ. And you do seem like a no nonsense kind of guy. I cannot really tell from here of course, but it never struck me that you might be an INTP.

And that brings me back to my original purpose. Where is everybody getting their scores? Is everybody paying the fee at the Keirsey site or am I missing something? All these tests used to be free but I am not finding any free results.

Thanks for reminding me, Stonewall. In fact I wasn't 50/50 INTP/INTJ, I was 50/50 INTJ/INFJ. I made a mistake in my most recent post.

Stonewall, to answer your question of where we are all getting this info, I took the Keirsey test a few times. It tells you your temperment for free. My temperment always came out as an NT "rational." I suspected it was probably INTJ, because it always has been before. I then paid for the most recent result and was right about that. There was also a free test that someone posted which I also took a few times on different days just to make sure. Same result, even with percentages, on that test too. I forget the URL on that one, but it's bookmarked in my "favorites" (I've been making all my buddies take it) as Jtypes2.asp if that helps.

BTW, thank you so much for helping me interpret the results. The INTJ description never did fit exactly, as I said before the results always indicated an INTJ/INTP type combo and sometimes even ENTJ. But the descriptions that fit were closer to INTJ and INFJ. This never made sense because my F was never above 30% max. But, it sounds like my main characteristic is introverted intuition. Now I need to figure out what that is, maybe I'll actually read some Jung for the first time since psych 101. :smile:

Thanks again!

I sure don't feel my second closest type is ISTP, the other introverted thinker. Maybe because my N is so strong. But I also relate second best to INFJ. Figure that.

Eric, I am curious as to why INFJ fits you better than INFP. I would think that, because you are an INTP, that your secondary type would also be another introverted perceiving type.

Oh Stonewall, on Hillary Clinton, why do you think she's an INTJ and not an ENTJ? Is it her cool, detached manner?

If she and I are both female INTJ's there is an easy explanation as to why I am more casual, relaxed and P-like than she is -- I'm an Xer and she's a Boomer. Xers tend to stay out of other people's way and, well, everyone on this site knows that Boomers do not.

BTW, she and I are both alumnae of the same undergraduate institution, exactly 20 years apart!

What's even more interesting is that she started out doing public service work (F style stuff) and ended up a corporate litigator -- hippie turned yuppie Boomer. I did the opposite, I started out a corporate litigator (this Xer survivalist saw good pay and benefits for the early 90s, and definately a very T environment) and ended up doing public service in a typical Xer job-hopping career risk manner. So, she may have more F to her than you think, she's just a different generation than me.

On 2001-11-14 11:50, Neisha '67 wrote:
Eric, I am curious as to why INFJ fits you better than INFP. I would think that, because you are an INTP, that your secondary type would also be another introverted perceiving type.

Let's look at the Jungian components of the three types:

INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe
INFP: Fi Ne Si Te
INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se

The INTP and INFP has Ne and Si in common. The INTP and INFJ has Ti and Fe in common.

As a result, INTPs complement both INFJs and INFPs. Since Eric has learned how to develop his Fe, it would give him the ability to communicate more on the level of the INFJ. Eric's dominant function is Ti, and Ti is the third function of the INFJ. So INFJs are able to communicate with the dominant function of the INTP.

This is my analysis.

On 2001-11-14 00:13, Eric A Meece wrote:
I sure don't feel my second closest type is ISTP, the other introverted thinker. Maybe because my N is so strong. But I also relate second best to INFJ. Figure that.

I think we just need a test with a better methodology all the way around. We need something which assesses the strengths of both attitudes of each function separately. Keirsey's N, for example, is your combined preference for Ne and Ni over Se and Si. It tells us nothing about whether you actually prefer Ne or Ni and thus nothing about your true type. He relies upon separate scales for I/E and J/P to solve the mystery and this is a mistyping waiting to happen.
I did a quick search and found this:

http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/mmdi-re/mmdi.htm

Have not had a chance to take a close look at it but it appears to use a different methodology. It may in fact assess relative strengths of the eight separate functions. But as far as I can tell, it does not score your results in this manner (perhaps not for public consumption anyway). It would be interesting to see if people get different results from Keirsey though.

On 2001-11-14 12:56, Neisha '67 wrote:

Oh Stonewall, on Hillary Clinton, why do you think she's an INTJ and not an ENTJ? Is it her cool, detached manner?

Good question. I guess I never took her for an extravert. When she speaks publicly, there seems to be a discomfort or disconnect to the extent that she really cannot connect personally with people and she would rather be doing something else with her time than informing people of her work and plans. She seems to feel no obligation or desire to interact with anyone excepting her inner circle as she believes herself to be so far above the mass of humanity. On the other hand, an ENTJ is probably confident that he is connecting with his audience but, unless he is speaking in a military barracks or something similar, he perhaps is not. That willingness (or unwillingness) to address the public and interact with people is what I see as the I/E determinant here and I believe Hillary would be happy if she never had to make another public appearance in her life.

Let me clarify that Hillary is probably not even typical for INTJs as she is extreme. For example, Bill Gates may well be INTJ (although I have not really thought this one through). Gates seems like he would rather be someplace else than a public gathering but there is not that air of superiority about him.

The nature of the NTJ's thinking process tends not to produce charisma and he/she can take on a robotic quality. Hillary is amazingly popular with a large minority of the population and equally as unpopular with another large minority. I do not believe that Hillary is popular with her supporters because they love Hillary as a human being. She is popular with them because they see her as a programmed robot which, with her iron will, is indestructible, and thus can implement their desires come hell or high water. That aloofness is the I determinant.

If she and I are both female INTJ's there is an easy explanation as to why I am more casual, relaxed and P-like than she is -- I'm an Xer and she's a Boomer. Xers tend to stay out of other people's way and, well, everyone on this site knows that Boomers do not.

This may be true. The timing of Hillary's birth made her eligible to take on a revolutionary cause. The timing of yours perhaps did not. I'll think about this.

BTW, she and I are both alumnae of the same undergraduate institution, exactly 20 years apart!

And Barbara Bush too if I am not mistaken? Or was that just a commencement speech she gave there?

On 2001-11-14 14:21, madscientist wrote:

Let's look at the Jungian components of the three types:

INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe
INFP: Fi Ne Si Te
INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se

The INTP and INFP has Ne and Si in common. The INTP and INFJ has Ti and Fe in common.

As a result, INTPs complement both INFJs and INFPs. Since Eric has learned how to develop his Fe, it would give him the ability to communicate more on the level of the INFJ. Eric's dominant function is Ti, and Ti is the third function of the INFJ. So INFJs are able to communicate with the dominant function of the INTP.

This is my analysis.

Robert, this is a tough one because I do not see how INTP and INFJ complement each other. I agree that they share a couple of functions in common but so do most types. Your temperament is really determined by your first two functions and your "proximity" to any other type is probably dictated by its common usage of one or both functions in any order such that there is a degree of understanding between the two of you. INTP is defined by Ti-Ne and INFJ by Ni-Fe. No commonality. In fact I am more likely to clash with an extraverted judger, particularly in an ideological environment.

There is evidence for linkage beneath the level of consciousness however. The best mate is something close to your opposite as you complement each other and make up for each other's weaknesses. An INTP's literal opposite is of course an ESFJ. Many point to ESFJ as the single best match although I am not certain I buy this. Certainly SFJ or NFJ might be best as we probably need that FJ (feeling and structure) in a mate.

As INTPs, we have Ti and Ne working together on the surface. Beneath the surface, we have Si and Fe working together. In other words, there is an ISFJ within us which is not part of our conscious existence.

Take the ISFJ: Si-Fe-Ti-Ne. The ISFJ has an unconscious INTP acting within given the underlying Ti-Ne pairing. It is only a deep relationship which brings this out and I suspect that the ISFJ complements the INTP, not the ESFJ. ESFJ would pair with ENTP. It is a matter of whether one believes that Es are best paired with Es and Is with Is, or whether Es and Is should be paired together. Some would also stick Ns with Ns and S's with S's. I do not know. But there certainly is a subconscious ISFJ within the INTP and vice-versa.

So in the end, an INFJ makes a reasonably good mate for an INTP. However it seems unlikely that you would be hanging out with an INFJ socially "with the guys" as you have so little in common on a conscious level. The INFJ might well take offense to many aspects of your free-wheeling and no holds barred INTP Ti sense of humor, and the INFJ might not show enough of an edge or use of logic to keep you interested. The INTP and INFJ have fundamentally different values which only coalesce subconsciously in a deep relationship. I just do not see how they consciously complement each other.

Stonewall, Barbara Bush went to Smith. She spoke at Wellesley the year after I graduated. We had Susan Estrich at my graduation (just fresh out of the ill-fated Dukakis campaign). Quite a bit less controversy there.

On 2001-11-14 16:45, Stonewall Patton wrote:

...
There is evidence for linkage beneath the level of consciousness however. The best mate is something close to your opposite as you complement each other and make up for each other's weaknesses. An INTP's literal opposite is of course an ESFJ. Many point to ESFJ as the single best match although I am not certain I buy this. Certainly SFJ or NFJ might be best as we probably need that FJ (feeling and structure) in a mate.

From what I heard, People with Sensing and Intuition don't tend to mix well. People who prefer Sensing tend to be concrete in their thought and communication, while Intuitives are abstract in their thought and communication. Besides, Intuitives are likely to choose other intuitives as mates, not withstanding the fact that they make up 15% of the population. Sensors tend to choose Sensors.

I don't know. My husband's an S. ISTJ to be exact. He has just gotten used to the fact that when I "jump to conclusions" it's just my N at work. It's helpful that I'm generally correct in my conclusions. Also, he likes that I have that "vision thing" and I like that he remembers that today is trash day, etc. We complement each other well. Although, everyone thinks its weird, given that we're both Ts, that neither one of us can ever remember if our anniversary is July 2 or July 3. Oh well!

There's something that's been bugging me about this whole discussion. That is this underlying sense I am getting that some of the Ts here think that Ts are smarter than Fs. I may be way off base on this. But if it's true, I need to voice my dissent. I don't think this is the case at all. Look at our posters, two of our brightest stars, Susan and Angeli are both Fs. Also, if I recall correctly, Donna and Jenny are both borderline T/F.

I think someone, Stonewall?, said something about Fs being unable to complete law school. I just wanted to say that my law school (Georgetown) was chock full of NFs wanting to change the world. The overwhelming majority of them graduated. I think to the extent that NFs get frustrated with the law, it's because the "wheels of justice turn slowly." A perfect example of this is Geraldo Rivera. Can you see him practicing law? He is a graduate of Harvard Law School. And he's most likely an ENFP.

On 2001-11-14 19:41, Neisha '67 wrote:

There's something that's been bugging me about this whole discussion. That is this underlying sense I am getting that some of the Ts here think that Ts are smarter than Fs. I may be way off base on this. But if it's true, I need to voice my dissent.

Not sure who implied this but I hope I have not given you this impression. Everything I have seen indicates that Ts and Fs are equally intelligent.

I think someone, Stonewall?, said something about Fs being unable to complete law school. I just wanted to say that my law school (Georgetown) was chock full of NFs wanting to change the world. The overwhelming majority of them graduated.

This one was mine and it was news to me as well. I had just cracked one of these books and they showed a study which indicated that Fs tended to drop out of law school such that the graduating classes were all Ts of various types. I would never interpret the fact that someone drops out of law school to mean that they are less intelligent and I doubt this study did either. All it means is that they found that they did not have sufficient interest to continue with it. Similarly, a T might drop out of...I don't know...grad school for social work...or cooking school. It does not mean that the T lacks the intelligence to complete the requirements.

A perfect example of this is Geraldo Rivera. Can you see him practicing law? He is a graduate of Harvard Law School. And he's most likely an ENFP.

Good example and he may well be an ENFP. No, I cannot see him practicing law and -- ta da -- he is not. Is he intelligent enough? Certainly. Is he interested enough? No way.

Sorry, folks, but this 'MBTI' stuff is become worse than voodoo*. Even worse than a bended knee of worship at the altar of generational 'archetypes.'

Sad. :oops:


*Main Entry: voo?doo
Pronunciation: 'v?-(")d?
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural voodoos
Etymology: Louisiana Creole voudou, probably from Ewe v?du tutelary deity, demon
Date: 1850
1 : a religion that is derived from African polytheism and ancestor worship and is practiced chiefly in Haiti
2 a : a person who deals in spells and necromancy b (1) : a sorcerer's spell : HEX (2) : a hexed object : CHARM




<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Marc S. Lamb on 2001-11-14 21:30 ]</font>

That's really interesting about law students, Stonewall.

BTW, I don't think it was specifically you, but several posters, including you, who gave me the impression that Ts are somehow smarter. But now I'm wondering if it's my own personal bias that logical thinking = intelligence; and that, to the extent that posters were implying that people who make decisions through an F filter were somehow less logical, I may have taken that to mean less intelligent, if that makes sense. Mea culpa. Anyway, that's my thought as to where I got that vibe. But it was *really* bugging me and my feminist sensibilities (F's generally being women, you know).

Here's something else interesting about lawyers. Every once in a while the ABA does research as to lawyers and personality. I don't remember much of it except that lawyers are way disproportionately intraverts. It was so pronounced that the ABA changed the way it communicated with its members as a result. I forget specifically what they did. I think it was things like increasing the length of features in the journal and toning down the graphics.

On 2001-11-14 21:21, Marc S. Lamb wrote:
Sorry, folks, but this 'MBTI' stuff is become worse than voodoo*.

Mr. Lamb, it might not if you would refrain from beheading chickens and howling and dancing in such rites as those in which you have no great interest...or perhaps it's just the rum got into you.

Oh Marc, quit being such an "S."

On 2001-11-14 21:21, Marc S. Lamb wrote:
Sorry, folks, but this 'MBTI' stuff is become worse than voodoo*. Even worse than a bended knee of worship at the altar of generational 'archetypes.'

Sad. :oops:

Marc, at least we do not chant the word "ballyhoo" in our rituals. :smile:

I have been reading past discussions around the site and have not yet read all of them. But from what I gather, INFP has been held up as the prophet type. For example, Robert as an INTP has often highlighted his prophetic talents and construed this to mean that he must be very close to being an INFP. Actually, I believe that both INTPs and INFPs qualify as prophets, however their talents pertain to two different spheres. I will elaborate further down.

It is necessary to define prophet in terms of type. Does only one type qualify or are there multiple types which qualify? Let me dispense with use of the term "prophet" for now and address philosophers.

A cursory reading of some type theory texts has suggested that the IN types specifically are the philosophers as introversion is a prerequisite to serious philosophical contemplation. The companion EN type for each IN philosopher is directed toward implementing the IN's philosophy. There are of course four IN types and thus four general types of philosopher (excluding any potential S philosophers). It strikes me that each of the four IN philosophers may speak distinctly to one of the four generational archetypes. This is what I see in order of confidence:


Nomad: INTP -- There is little doubt that the INTP speaks to the Nomad generation. Nomads border upon nihilism and the INTP lands closest to nihilism given his defining pursuit of objective truth and consequent abandonment of as many subjective considerations as possible. The INTP's individualistic, anti-authoritarian cries of 'live free or die' and 'don't tread on me' and 'give me liberty or give me death' speak plainly to the bulk of Nomads who simply wish to be left alone by government and by their fellow man. None of the other three IN philosophers comes close. The INTP philosopher fits the Nomad generation like a glove and really fits no other generation.


Prophet: INFJ -- The Prophet philosopher is certainly going to be one of the two Fs. I lean toward INFJ versus INFP as Prophets are more communitarian despite the individualist claims. They speak in terms of the brotherhood of man and actively seek to impose their vision. It is the INFJ who seeks to convert the whole of mankind to his beliefs. The INFP, by contrast, is passive and uses persuasion where the INFJ uses force. The INFJ philosopher best fits the Prophet generation and really fits no other generation.


Hero: INTJ -- The Hero generation is clearly T as opposed to F. They are communitarian which suggests that they respond to an active, imposing J philosopher as opposed to a passive, persuading P philosopher. If the four IN philosophers indeed match up with the four generational archetypes, then the INTJ must speak to the Hero generation. Indeed the INTJ philosopher logically brings structural order from chaos and the Heroes are coming out of chaos with no time to think about their "feelings." It makes perfect sense that the INTJ philosopher would speak to the Hero generation.


Artist: INFP -- INFP is the only one left and, if there is a correlation between IN philosopher and generational archetype, the INFP philosopher belongs here. Indeed Artists do seem more given to persuasion than force. And they do seem more F than T. The INFP philosopher best fits here and it would seem that the INFP philosopher would speak to Artists like no other.


There are some possible ramifications here. To my way of thinking, the Revolutionary Crisis had an INTP/Nomad flavor. However neither of the later Crises did as they seemed more Prophet (and possibly INFJ) in nature. Perhaps a battle of wills between generations takes place leading up to the Crisis and Regeneracy and one generation prevails? Perhaps it has to do with relative proportions of generations in the population at the time of Crisis? Or perhaps the Liberty and Awakener generations were too much alike relative to later Prophets and Nomads? I will have to go back to S&H on this one.

Returning to the subject of what constitutes a prophet: Does each of the four IN philosophers qualify? Or do some qualify and others not? Or does only one type qualify?

Each of the four IN philosophers has a distinct vision. But we can pair the two P philosophers and similarly pair the two Js separately. The two P philosophers (INTP and INFP) assess reality for what it is and, with benefit of historical knowledge, foresee the course of future events. They only differ in that the INTP sees the future course of politics and institutional structures and such whereas the INFP sees the future and how it bears upon people's ability to maximize their potential. They seek to implement their visions by acting in certain ways at certain points in the foreseen future. In other words, they plot to overcome an independently directed inertia to the course of human events, or perhaps more properly redirect it to a desired destination.

On the other hand, the two J philosophers (INTJ and INFJ) are less concerned with the course of future events and may not even have the ability to foresee them (this may be an Ne trait which is lacking in them as they use Ni). But it really does not matter as they are confident, perhaps with a degree of hubris, that they can impose their vision despite any inertia which may work against them. Whereas the P philosophers attempt to redirect an independently fed stream, the J philosophers feed and direct the stream themselves.

Returning to Robert specifically, he suspects that he is a prophet and assumes that he must therefore have a lot of INFP in him. Not necessarily. If Ne is indeed responsible for providing prophetic vision of the future, then Robert is a prophet as an INTP and there is no necessity that he have any relation to INFP. Both INTPs and INFPs have prophetic visions of the future. They are only different in so far as they see different aspects of the future. The INTP sees what will happen to politics, institutions, etc. The INFP sees what will happen to people. But both, with benefit of Ne, are prophets with specific and very often accurate visions of the future.

How the four generational philosophers direct the course of events, I have not yet determined. Here they are again:

INTJ speaks to Heroes
INFP speaks to Artists
INFJ speaks to Prophets
INTP speaks to Nomads

Again, I believe the two P philosophers have the actual accurate visions of the future. But it is certainly the J philosophers who are given to forcibly implementing their visions. Perhaps things work in this way:

1) The INFP spiritual prophet speaks to the Artist generation and sees the state of people as they actually will be in the future short of some change in the flow of history. He provides the spiritual roadmap and his desire is that people get to maximize their potential in the future, free of force and interference.

2) The INFJ spiritual leader speaks to the Prophet generation and, using the INFP's spiritual roadmap as a guide, actively works to alter the flow of history so as to bring into being his preferred spiritual vision to which the INFP prophet may or may not subscribe. He forces people to get along as a community in order to impose his desired spiritual order. His plan is a reaction, favorable or unfavorable, to the INFP's prophetic vision.

3) The INTP secular prophet speaks to the Nomad generation and sees the state of political and institutional structures as they will be in the future short of some change in the flow of history. He provides the secular roadmap and his desire is that people get to live their lives as they see fit in the future, free of force and interference.

4) The INTJ secular leader speaks to the Hero generation and, using the INTP's secular roadmap as a guide, actively works to alter the flow of history so as to bring into being his preferred secular vision to the which the INTP prophet may or may not subscribe. He forces people to get along as a community in order to impose his desired secular order. His plan is a reaction, favorable or unfavorable, to the INTP's prophetic vision.


Note that the philosopher who speaks to each generation does not necessarily have to be of the particular generation himself. He merely finds an audience among a certain generation. I am not sure what it all means but it seems to me that INFJs and INTJs are implementing the spiritual and secular orders, respectively, at the Regeneracy, or at least providing the plans which will be implemented. And their plans are not their own prophetic visions (again, you need Ne to see the future), but instead are reactions to the prophetic visions of INFPs and INTPs, respectively. The implementation of all this is overseen by the Gray Champion and I will discuss him with respect to type in another post.

Ok, I repent. Anybody know where I can get a good deal on some sackcloth and ashes?





:smile:

Interesting Stonewall. I think it fits my proposed pattern, suggesting all 4 of these types are prophet types, at least in part. I wonder if and how you are looking to apply your analysis. I agree with it though; I think your grouping of IN philosophers is correct, as far as such patterns can be.

As an INTP, I don't know how the nomads here would react to knowing that I am their philosopher :smile: However, I certainly fit as one who has accurately (in part) forecast political events! As for INFJ, which I surmise is the prophet MBTI type par excellance, I think most INFJ's have great prophetic abilities, but they may use them in work with individuals ("the counselor or oracle") rather than in or about large groups. Perhaps it is the ENFJ or ENFP who can rouse the people to an INFJ's idealistic vision. INFJ's seem a rather mild-mannered, wise and harmonious bunch of folks, quietly decisive; but I could be wrong. Susan and Tim seem good examples of this though.

On 2001-11-15 15:00, Eric A Meece wrote:

As for INFJ, which I surmise is the prophet MBTI type par excellance, I think most INFJ's have great prophetic abilities, but they may use them in work with individuals ("the counselor or oracle") rather than in or about large groups.

This is what I cannot remember about this stuff and I cannot find applicable discussion to refresh. I want to say that INFJ is often characterized as the prophet in MBTI texts although I am not sure. If so, then what kind of prophecy are we talking about?

As an INTP, I have both long-term and short-term prophetic visions of the future in terms of politics and institutions. Let me describe my most recent one, a short-term one:

Two days before the 2000 election, I predicted that, on election night, as you were looking at your television screen, you would specifically see Florida change mysteriously from Gore's color to Bush's color giving Bush the election. This is precisely what did happen. And every objective indicator supports Gore's victory including the end-of-day VNS exit polling, the end-of-day Gore internal exit polling as well as the end-of-day Bush internal exit polling, all of which showed Gore by at least 3 points in Florida. (BTW, where on earth are the objective indicators which prompted Karl Rove and Junior to get on TV on election night and say, "I don't know what you guys are talking about. We won Florida. I know we did." Even their own internal polling showed that they lost by at least 3 points.)

I foresaw all this with specificity because I had noted continual logical inconsistencies both in the process and in the media coverage through the campaign which prompted me to reformulate my basic assumptions about how this country operates. Once I did, all the previous inconsistencies were now logically consistent and the outcome in Florida -- and in the general election -- was a foregone conclusion despite the fact that the most reliable objective indicators leading up to Election Day gave Gore Florida by 3+ -- as did every objective indicator at the close of the polls on Election Day. And let me tell you that I am not at all happy about the nature of my new assumptions about how this country truly operates. I naturally will have to stick with them until reality proves to be no longer logically consistent with them. And I more than anyone would like to see some logical inconsistencies starting immediately!

This is an example of an INTP's prophetic vision which sees what will actually happen in the future, irrespective of his own desires. My guess is that an INFJ has a powerful vision about what should happen, irrespective of what the future actually holds, consistent with his own desires. And the INFJ can then inspire people to defy any inertia to the flow of events and realize his vision. The INTP and INFP see what will happen. The INFJ and INTJ see what should happen. I think this is it. Who is a prophet turns on how one defines a prophet.

On 2001-11-14 21:37, Neisha '67 wrote:
That's really interesting about law students, Stonewall.

BTW, I don't think it was specifically you, but several posters, including you, who gave me the impression that Ts are somehow smarter. But now I'm wondering if it's my own personal bias that logical thinking = intelligence; and that, to the extent that posters were implying that people who make decisions through an F filter were somehow less logical, I may have taken that to mean less intelligent, if that makes sense. Mea culpa. Anyway, that's my thought as to where I got that vibe. But it was *really* bugging me and my feminist sensibilities (F's generally being women, you know).

I agree 100%, as a matter of fact, in the beginning of this thread, I came up with my signature, because if you were feeling that, think how I was feeling...I'm not even an I!

Here's something else interesting about lawyers. Every once in a while the ABA does research as to lawyers and personality. I don't remember much of it except that lawyers are way disproportionately intraverts. It was so pronounced that the ABA changed the way it communicated with its members as a result. I forget specifically what they did. I think it was things like increasing the length of features in the journal and toning down the graphics.

As a former legal secretary, I can attest to that...that's why good legal secretaries are so important, especially in a corporate setting, because someone has to run interference between the attorney and the rest of the company!

Marc S. Lamb?Yes, I know where to get your sackcloth and ashes: It?s where LBJ went to purchase vanity with the hides of many young soldiers, and where no real model for meaningful history is available on the shelves. Some kind of model must come into focus; otherwise voodoo is the only option. Not for me. I?m a biologist, and I?d rather go looking for natural cycles.

On the other hand, I can?t abide with all of Stonewall Patton?s attempts to distribute the MBTI traits across the generations. The one I don?t like most is INTJ for Heroes. I?m a late Silent (?39), I rate myself as INTJ, and don?t fit the Hero archetype at all. But I enjoyed your analysis. Could anything more be said about the cyclical nature of your configurations? Where the spring, summer, autumn, and winter play their roles? Succession must have meaning here. At some point, I think, Jungian resolution becomes too subjective and beyond empirical focus?like astrology, maybe?and the grounds get too shifty for me.

Finding the right ground makes all the difference. The firmness of my own ground is always the main question on the table. But I?m all for making every attempt, voodoo or not, and then sorting them in chat rooms like these. Thanks.

Would you be referring to the land of rice paddys, Croaker? :smile:

So did you notice the date at which time the word 'voodoo' was invented, Croaker? Much as I hate becoming as a broken record on this word-invention/cycles of history thing, it sure seems to fit an 'inner-driven' time, huh?

So can anyone guess what Jungian figure held sway in the last unraveling? Hint: Another 'Austrian' held sway in the last unraveling as well, with the notion of 'price-stabilizing' and the Austrian School of Economics.

p.s. Add Hitler to the mix, and, boy, those Austrians sure made a lot of noise back then.