I think I may have been one of those posters who came across as valuing F less than T.

T does not rule over F for the simple reason that people and their feelings, smoothing things over, and warmth are indispensible parts of successful human relations. And if we want to go so far as to apply LOGIC to feelings, then it is logical to always factor in feelings, since everybody has them and since people's feelings, whether they are T or F, tend to influence their decisions at least a little. So, IMHO, it is illogical to ignore, play down, or fail to take into consideration emotions. This is a cornerstone of emotional intelligence theory.

What some people who are F struggle with, I think, (and I can say this as a part time F person) is becoming so overloaded with emotional content that logical, fair, and impartial decisions fail to get made OR decisions are overly tainted with emotional biases. This is particularly destructive in work settings. So controlling emotions and applying the discipline of logic and analysis becomes a growth direction to work towards for F people. In like manner, recognizing and taking into consideration one's and others' feelings becomes a growth direction for T people, since without strong relationships and the support of others even the most visionary of goals can easily go unrealized.

It is true that women are trained and socially reinforced to be more concerned with feelings than thinking. In some situations this puts F women at an advantage; social situations, relationships, etc. In other situations, such as work, this becomes a disadvantage, one which was strongly apparent for 70's feminists trying to work. And yes, even in fields such as human services.

And it is true that men are trained and socially reinforced to be more concerned with thinking and strategy. Now that many women have become more disciplined thinkers and have more power, T men are put at a distinct disadvantage in relationships if they are unable to grow at all in the F direction. But I think that many men have become more egalitarian and emotionally attentive and responsive, at least GenX men.

INFJ's seem a rather mild-mannered, wise and harmonious bunch of folks, quietly decisive; but I could be wrong. Susan and Tim seem good examples of this though.

I like to think so! :smile:

On 2001-11-16 15:32, Donna Sherman wrote:
I think that many men have become more egalitarian and emotionally attentive and responsive, at least GenX men.

I think this is because of the Silent type of "free to be you and me" parenting that encouraged boys, especially middle- to upper middle class boys, to express their feelings and that it's okay to cry and show other "feminine" emotions. Still, I know lots of Gen-X men who act uber-macho, too, and would rather kiss a Woodstock ticket than allow anyone to see them cry.

_________________
Labels tell you where the box is coming from and where it is headed and are quite helpful. They do not tell you what's inside though they might indicate "fragile", "handle with care", "this is not a Bill", "magnetic medium", etc.--VIRGIL K. SAARI

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2001-11-16 20:05 ]</font>

Here is a description of INFJ I found which I was able to save from an internet site. It should answer your question, Stonewall, about the type of prophetic abilities they have.

It is not so much the type INTP's have which are more about forecasting political, historical or economic trends, often using the thinking function as well as intuition. As an INTP, this kind of forecasting is my forte, being the author of a book on the subject (see my profile and web site). Although I use astrology, which some INTPs may not consider "thinking," in fact I take a quite scholarly approach and have quite a few correct predictions. I also do personal forecasting though, the INFJ forte.

To wit: INFJ:

2. FJ'S -- THE FEELING JUDGING-MODE TYPES

INFJ -- Introverted Intuition Aided by Feeling -- Idealist-Counselor (prophet?-E.M.)

Main Characteristics

INFJs focus on possibilities, think in terms of values and come easily to decisions. The small number of this type (1 percent) is regrettable, since INFJs have unusually strong drive to contribute to the welfare of others and genuinely enjoy helping their fellow men. This type has great depth of personality; they are themselves complicated, and can understand and deal with complex issues and people.

It is an INFJ who is likely to have visions of human events past, present, or future. If a person demonstrates an ability to understand psychic phenomena better than most others, this person is apt to be an INFJ. Characteristically, INFJs have strong empathic abilities and can be aware of another's emotions or intents even before that person is conscious of these. This can take the form of feeling the distress of illnesses of others to an extent which is difficult for other types. INFJs can intuit good and evil in others, although they seldom can tell how they came to know. Subsequent events tend to bear them out, however.

INFJs are usually good students, achievers who exhibit an unostentatious creativity. They take their work seriously and enjoy academic activity. They can exhibit qualities of over perfectionism and put more into a task than perhaps is justified by the nature of the task. They generally will not be visible leaders, but will quietly exert influence behind the scenes.

INFJs are hard to get to know. They have an unusually rich inner life, but they are reserved and tend not to share their reactions except with those they trust....
INFJs like to please others and tend to contribute their own best efforts in all situations. They prefer and enjoy agreeing with others, and find conflict disagreeable and destructive. What is known as ESP is likely found in an INFJ more than in any other types, although other types are capable of such phenomena. INFJs have vivid imaginations exercised both as memory and intuition, and this can amount to genius, resulting at times in an INFJ's being seen as mystical.
This unfettered imagination often will enable this person to compose complex and often aesthetic works of art such as music, mathematical systems, poems, plays, and novels. In a sense, the INFJ is the most poetic of all the types. Just as the ENTJ cannot not lead, so must an INFJ intuit; this capability extends to people, things, and often events, taking the form of visions, episodes of foreknowledge, premonitions, auditory and visual images of things to come. INFJs can have uncanny communications with certain individuals at a distance.

Career

INFJs often select liberal arts as a college major and opt for occupations which involve interacting with people, but on a one-to-one basis. For example, the general practitioner in medicine might be an INFJ, or the psychiatrist or psychologist. As with all NF's, the ministry holds attraction, although the INFJ must develop an extraverted role here which requires a great deal of energy. INFJs may be attracted to writing as a profession, and often they use language which contains an unusual degree of imagery. They are masters of the metaphor, and both their verbal and written communications tend to be elegant and complex. Their great talent for language usually is directed toward people, describing people and writing to communicate with people in a personalized way. INFJs who write comment often that they write with a particular person in mind; writing to a faceless, abstract audience leaves them uninspired.

INFJs make outstanding individual therapists who have the ability to get in touch with the archetypes of their patients in a way some other types do not. The INFJs are also the most vulnerable of all the types to the eruption of their own archetypal material. As therapists, INFJs may choose counseling, clinical psychology, or psychiatry, or may choose to teach in these fields.
Writing about these professions often intrigues an INFJ. Whatever their choice, they generally are successful in these fields because their great personal warmth, their enthusiasm, their insight, their depth of concentrations, their originality, and their organizational skills can all be brought into play.

At work as well as socially, INFJs are highly sensitive in their handling of others and tend to work well in an organizational structure. They have a capacity for working at jobs which require solitude and concentration, but also do well when in contact with people, providing the human interaction is not superficial. INFJs enjoy problem-solving and can understand and use human systems creatively and humanistically. As employees or employers, INFJs are concerned with people's feelings and are able to provide in themselves a barometer of the feelings of individuals and groups within the organizations. INFJs listen well and are willing and able to consult and cooperate with others. Once a decision is made, they work to implement it.


Midlife

At midlife an INFJ can best continue developing the thinking function in the form of logic and the pursuit of theory. The pleasure of taking a theoretical model and applying it to a situation may be a source of interest which an INFJ may have been neglecting. While continuing to pursue the person-to-person in feeling-type relationships, at midlife INFJs may want to get more involved in working with NT's, who offer a dimension not dominant in NF's and vice versa. Carefully providing for rest and taking care of physical health is vital to the INFJ at all times, and mandatory from midlife on.

end of quote.


_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2001-11-16 21:05 ]</font>

BTW the description is by Dr. Winer

A further thought for Stonewall: your strict division between INJs and INPs, whereby the former forecast things as they should be, while the latter predict things as they will be, is not so clear-cut. As the architect, INTPs design systems. INTPs, whatever else they may be, are designers; thus creating the world as they think it should be; not so much in the feeling value sense (as then they would be Fs), but according to the plans they see as a beautifully-working system. I think among our young millennials Robert is an example of this kind of INTP "prophecy" and also Chris. Also, INFPs are crusaders; obviously not just interested in how things will be, but in how they should be.

Eric, thanks for that description of the INFJ personality. Much of it does sound much like me.

Here are my percentages (from when I took it last year; I can barely remember)

E - 55% or so
N - 70 - 80%
T - 70 - 80%
J - 90 - 95%

which makes me ENTJ (apparently one of my traits which DOES fit in with my generational stereotype)

Being an INFJ makes me a mild mannered, wise, harmonious imbecile.

On 2001-11-16 08:22, Croaker'39 wrote:

The one I don?t like most is INTJ for Heroes. I?m a late Silent (?39), I rate myself as INTJ, and don?t fit the Hero archetype at all.

Croaker, I wasn't trying to say that the INTJ type is synonymous with the Hero archetype. I was suggesting that the Hero generation would look to the INTJ philosopher more than any of the other three IN philosophers. The INTJ's own generational archetype is probably irrelevant. But his ideas on secular structures and institutions will probably resonate more with Heroes than with any other archetype. If so then, as we progress into the 4T, you might find that the rising Heroes will begin "speaking your language" with respect to government like no other generation before it.

I did not put that forward to say, hey, this is the way it works. That is part of a work in progress which may be completely wrong and/or irrelevant. What I am trying to determine is how the different types of IN philosophers mix in the marketplace of ideas and what the mix tells us about the changes implemented at any regeneracy. For example, how did the mix present in the Revolutionary Cycle produce a regeneracy with an INTP flavor? And how did the mix present in the Great Depression produce a regeneracy with an INFJ(?) flavor? Still trying to make sense of it.

But I enjoyed your analysis. Could anything more be said about the cyclical nature of your configurations?

Still thinking about it. Will post as time permits when I can assemble arguments. I have one on the Gray Champion which I have not been able to write up yet. And this one may be more reliable than the business I offered earlier.

At some point, I think, Jungian resolution becomes too subjective and beyond empirical focus?like astrology, maybe?and the grounds get too shifty for me.

I agree completely with you here. I'd rather use some other method but I am not sure what will better serve to measure relative philosophical forces in the cauldron of a Crisis.

Picture a vector diagram. There are four vectors representing the philosophies of the four IN philosophers. The political ideology of a philosopher determines a vector's direction. And some other factor(s) determines its magnitude. The resultant illustrates the direction of movement in a given 4T.

I suspect that the necessary general correlation between IN type and political ideology (direction) exists. The trick is to quantify in some way so as to get magnitude.
Perhaps it can be done by this method or perhaps not.

Eric, thanks for the information. I'll have to absorb it and comment later but it looks like an INFJ has something of a psychic vision. If so, then he has a different relationship in the mix than the one I offered.

Generational MBTI types - well, hecky darn, I'm a Silent Generation woman and tested out NT. INTP to be exact. So I KNOW there's no certain one to one correspondence, just a general prevailing style you can belong to, fight, try to break down, or be broken by it.

That's funny, Pat! I definately think there are better types to be for different times and different generations. For example, the best types to be if you are an Xer are probably ESTP and ENTP. It's probably always good to be an ENTJ.

On 2001-11-20 11:42, Neisha '67 wrote:
That's funny, Pat! I definately think there are better types to be for different times and different generations. For example, the best types to be if you are an Xer are probably ESTP and ENTP. It's probably always good to be an ENTJ.

Being an ESFJ is usually pretty good too...you get hurt feelings a little more than an ENTJ, but on the other hand, you can basically swim with any tide, which is not a bad thing. :smile:

My birth year is 1982, January 19th. My personality type is ESTP, or I'm pretty sure it is. I know I definitely have extraversion and thinking preferences, but sensing/intuition juging/perceiving kind of varies according to the situation. its weird. I used to think I was an ENTJ, but I realized I wasn't really that intuitive.

On 2001-11-28 20:51, anne579 wrote:
My birth year is 1982, January 19th. My personality type is ESTP, or I'm pretty sure it is. I know I definitely have extraversion and thinking preferences, but sensing/intuition juging/perceiving kind of varies according to the situation. its weird. I used to think I was an ENTJ, but I realized I wasn't really that intuitive.

Welcome to the site. I'll be sure that you receive a nice helping of INTP thought, especially given the fact that we make up only 1% of the population.

:wink:

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Life is not a cancer of matter; it is matter's transcendence of itself." - John S. Lewis
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Einstein

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2001-11-28 21:24 ]</font>

On 2001-10-22 17:21, Susan Brombacher wrote:
So, while you ISTPs have your club of four, there are now 3 of us "exceedingly rare" INFJs on this board: Moi, Tim Walker, and Anne '72. Unless I forgot someone.

I always felt like such a square peg everywhere else.

I know the feeling. I'm an estp/entj and haven't met another one on the net yet. I am a definite extravert and thinker, but my s/n is tied, and my j/p is a tie, since I seem to be able to switch as the situation needs.
I was just talking to my dad about the jung/mbti stuff about the extraversion/introversion. My dad, brother, grandma, grandpa are all introverts feelers, and I'm an extraverted and thinker, so we have a lot of minor personality differences. My best friend since kidnergarten is an isfj, and my other two best friends are enfps. Since I live in a laid-back country town, I have observed that introversion is about 75% while extraversion is only about 25%, so sometimes I feel like an oddball, being one of the few extraverts. Most of the people I am around on a daily basis are introverts and feelers, so as an extravert and thinker I'm always getting told I'm too not laid-back and straightforward. I'm kind of a 'get to the point' person while my family is more into feelings and being tactful, so we have some personality differences there. It's really quite interesting to see how many different types interact with each other in different situations.

I live in a laid-back country town, I have observed that introversion is about 75% while extraversion is only about 25%, so sometimes I feel like an oddball, being one of the few extraverts. Most of the people I am around on a daily basis are introverts and feelers

What town is that? Maybe I will move there!

On 2001-10-22 09:02, Lis '54 wrote:
Ok, I checked my score (it was at work), and I am an ISTJ, though the N/S is where I'm almost 50%-50%. Everything else is very definite.

It doesn't surprise me at all that most of us are introverts.

I decided that the estp description about me didn't really sound right. I read some entj/intj descriptions, and those sounded a lot more like me. I think I was about 69% extraverted, so I'm not too sure on the introversion/extraversion, since I love being around people and get energized by socializing, but sometimes I like to be alone drawing, online, or watching tv and just relax. Introverts are known for being more laid back, but I'm one of those people who is impulsive and gets involved with my surroundings, so I guess I'm pretty comfortable with either function.

On 2001-11-29 16:05, Susan Brombacher wrote:

I live in a laid-back country town, I have observed that introversion is about 75% while extraversion is only about 25%, so sometimes I feel like an oddball, being one of the few extraverts. Most of the people I am around on a daily basis are introverts and feelers

What town is that? Maybe I will move there!

I live in newark ohio, in the country part where its mostly woods. I retook a personality test, because I started to think I was more of the entj, because the more I thought about it, the estp sounded a little off. I usually score about 69% on the extraversion, which means I can be a little introverted at times. sometime around july, I'm moving in with my aunt and uncle, who live half an hour from LA, since I want to be an animator, cartoon/soap opera writer, or just about anything related to those.

Don't worry, we here can also help you in determining your type.

On 2001-10-21 13:09, SMA wrote:
xNTJ, 1969

I usually see these listed as:

EexiI
NnxsS
TtxfF
JjxpP

depending on how strong your affinity is. I'm strong NTJ, dead center on I/E

I used to think i was estp, but then last night i re-read the description and other than a few things, the description sounded way off. I re-took the test on a page called discover your personality type and was more entj/intj, pretty equal e and i. I guess last time I took the test I was rushing through it because I had stuff I needed to do around the house and the questions where it's one or the other are kind of hard.

`

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: anne579 on 2001-11-30 11:07 ]</font>

On 2001-11-03 17:46, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Two female INTPs? This is incredible. Can there possibly be another one in the world?

You two ought to join the carnival and set up next to the bearded lady...only kidding! But it seems like you two ought to be enough of a novelty to qualify.

that got me wondering if there were more male/female ntjs. I'm a 19 year old female i/entj. Sometimes depending on the particular day, I'll be more extraverted and talkative, people will be asking me if I ever shut the h*** up, while the next day people will be telling me I'm too quiet.

On 2001-11-03 17:46, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Two female INTPs? This is incredible. Can there possibly be another one in the world?

You two ought to join the carnival and set up next to the bearded lady...only kidding! But it seems like you two ought to be enough of a novelty to qualify.

that got me wondering if there were more male/female ntjs. I'm a 19 year old female i/entj. Sometimes tne I/E function varies back and fourth depending on the day.