On 2002-02-05 18:47, Susan Brombacher wrote:

This is my alone time, the only time of day (other than trips to the bathroom) I can be completely free of other humans

That one's for you, Stonewall! :wink:
*snicker*

I'm honored, Susan. Thank you. :wink:

There is something else that I want to research with regards to MBTI. That would be to build a new set of temperaments based upon Jungian functional similarities.

I met some ESFJ who had been living 20 years of his life as an INTP. He basically became an engineer (his father was a doctor). He tells me that he has always been down. Two years ago, when he took the test, he came out as an INTP, and he expected that. But when he quit his engineering job, and decided to find out what was wrong with him, he found out that he was really an ESFJ. So this got me thinking that he was close to center on most functions.

So, I'm wondering if we can create new temperamental styles related to this. For instance, the INTP, ENTP, ISFJ, and ESFJ would belong to one temperament, the INTJ, ESFP, ENTJ, and ISFP would belong to another. The ISTP, ESTP, ENFJ, and INFJ would belong to another, while the INFP, ENFP, ESTJ, and ISTJ would belong to the last temperament.

Can we find a relationship between each type in this style of temperament?

I would say that it depends on how well a person has developed all four functions. Let's take the INTP and ESFJ for instance. The INTP uses Ti Ne Si Fe. The ESFJ uses Fe Si Ne Ti.

The INTP's Fe function is his least developed one. Now, what if an INTP was able to develop his last two functions Si and Fe? Could it be that for periods of time, an INTP would be able to reverse his functions?

It is probable that every person jumps into their shadow every once in a blue moon, at the very least.

But when it does happen, unless the person has developed his/her third and fourth functions, the person will likely come across as a child version of a type. For instance, an INTP might appear like a child version of an ESFJ, and vice versa. Does this make any sense?

On 2002-02-06 10:46, madscientist wrote:

So, I'm wondering if we can create new temperamental styles related to this. For instance, the INTP, ENTP, ISFJ, and ESFJ would belong to one temperament, the INTJ, ESFP, ENTJ, and ISFP would belong to another. The ISTP, ESTP, ENFJ, and INFJ would belong to another, while the INFP, ENFP, ESTJ, and ISTJ would belong to the last temperament.

Can we find a relationship between each type in this style of temperament?

Robert, I believe that you are joining complements. For example:

INTP = TiNeSiFe
ESFJ = FeSiNeTi

ENTP = NeTiFeSi
ISFJ = SiFeTiNe

One has the reverse order of functions as the other. However there is disagreement as to what is the perfect complement. Some would suggest that it is better to pair an E with an E and an I with an I. We would get INTP/ISFJ and ENTP/ESFJ. Note that this second arrangement also preserves the ordering within each pair of functions, e.g. TiNe for INTP and ISFJ, and NeTi for ENTP and ESFJ.

It sounds like your friend went into the wrong field to begin with. A lot of people do. I'm not sure that his wrong choice of occupation necessitates that there be a meaningful link between INTP and ESFJ. Your friend simply did not know who he really was until recently.

The INTP's Fe function is his least developed one. Now, what if an INTP was able to develop his last two functions Si and Fe? Could it be that for periods of time, an INTP would be able to reverse his functions?

If it were possible, he would be one miserable human being as it sounds like your friend was. I think the answer is that there is no way for the individual to be "healthy" in doing such a thing.

It is probable that every person jumps into their shadow every once in a blue moon, at the very least.

I was just thinking about this "shadow" thing and I believe that an INTP's shadow is ENTJ, is it not? It is the same order of functions with all attitudes reversed. ESFJ and/or ISFJ are INTP complements, not shadows (I think?).

But when it does happen, unless the person has developed his/her third and fourth functions, the person will likely come across as a child version of a type. For instance, an INTP might appear like a child version of an ESFJ, and vice versa. Does this make any sense?

Child might be too generous. I would tend to think that the individual would be very unstable and irrational...and very unhappy.

http://www.mostert.tmfweb.nl/windows.html

<font color="blue">
<big>Windows - MBTI</big>

We are all familiar with Windows-NT. It is a little known fact that Windows versions exist that are based on the other three temperaments: Windows-SJ, Windows-NF and Windows-SP. This page compares the four Windows versions.

Windows NT: you have got to love, you have got to hate it. The concept is great. You can drag and drop files across the globe, you can exchange information easily between programs and you can do any number of tasks simultaneously. The concept is great, but the devil is in the details. Some tiny detail will halt the computer and eat your work. If you are lucky, you get an incomprehensible error message just before that. Typical error message:
Error 023: Fatal exception $0023 at address $E023.9F3B.

No problems like that with good old, dependable Windows-SJ . This operating will not crash. Period. It is built to last the way it came out of the box. In theory it is possible to add new hardware, but the hardware has to comply with very strict standards. The tiniest deviation will confuse Windows-SJ. Typical error message:
Error 001: This is not how we do things around here. End of explanation.

Windows-NT and Windows-SJ both give error messages that are not 'user-friendly'. Non of that with Windows-NF . No other version is that user oriented. Its error messages display genuine concern for user. On the down side, you cannot get past the built-in content filter, and helpful suggestions for downloading astrology programs. Typical error messages:
Error 176: I am sorry, but I can't find that file. I hope this does not inconvenience you too much.
Error 299: I cannot work like this. You do not love me anymore.

Finally, there is Windows-SP. I am sure there was a point to its development, but it did not work out. Windows-SP has a fatal flaw: it only works when it wants to. Typical error message:
Error 001: What do I care? Do it yourself.

</font>

An addition to this would be that Windows-NT got tired of the inefficiency, bulk, and "big brother" nature of itself, and decided to self install Linux.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"Not to know is bad, but to refuse to know is worse." -- A Gambian Proverb

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-02-09 13:46 ]</font>

On 2002-02-09 13:45, madscientist wrote:
http://www.mostert.tmfweb.nl/windows.html

<font color="blue">
<big>Windows - MBTI</big>

We are all familiar with Windows-NT. It is a little known fact that Windows versions exist that are based on the other three temperaments: Windows-SJ, Windows-NF and Windows-SP. This page compares the four Windows versions.

Windows NT: you have got to love, you have got to hate it. The concept is great. You can drag and drop files across the globe, you can exchange information easily between programs and you can do any number of tasks simultaneously. The concept is great, but the devil is in the details. Some tiny detail will halt the computer and eat your work. If you are lucky, you get an incomprehensible error message just before that. Typical error message:
Error 023: Fatal exception $0023 at address $E023.9F3B.

No problems like that with good old, dependable Windows-SJ . This operating will not crash. Period. It is built to last the way it came out of the box. In theory it is possible to add new hardware, but the hardware has to comply with very strict standards. The tiniest deviation will confuse Windows-SJ. Typical error message:
Error 001: This is not how we do things around here. End of explanation.

Windows-NT and Windows-SJ both give error messages that are not 'user-friendly'. Non of that with Windows-NF . No other version is that user oriented. Its error messages display genuine concern for user. On the down side, you cannot get past the built-in content filter, and helpful suggestions for downloading astrology programs. Typical error messages:
Error 176: I am sorry, but I can't find that file. I hope this does not inconvenience you too much.
Error 299: I cannot work like this. You do not love me anymore.

Finally, there is Windows-SP. I am sure there was a point to its development, but it did not work out. Windows-SP has a fatal flaw: it only works when it wants to. Typical error message:
Error 001: What do I care? Do it yourself.

</font>

An addition to this would be that Windows-NT got tired of the inefficiency, bulk, and "big brother" nature of itself, and decided to self install Linux.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"Not to know is bad, but to refuse to know is worse." -- A Gambian Proverb

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-02-09 13:46 ]</font>

And where do us Mac OS people fit into MBTI? :wink:

I took the RHETI test once again, and 5 is my highest score, with 1, 3, 4, 6, and 9 all vying for 2nd place. What is this about "healthy" and "unhealthy" [number]?

Concerning people who go into the wrong field-it is my experience that the career counseling field is full of incompetents who have never heard of MBTI, or aptitude testing, or what have you. The field is a haven for space cadets.

On 2002-02-11 20:18, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:

I took the RHETI test once again, and 5 is my highest score, with 1, 3, 4, 6, and 9 all vying for 2nd place. What is this about "healthy" and "unhealthy" [number]?

Chris, isn't the RHETI just the partial Ennegram test which they allow you take for free? I am sure that you are probably a Five but do not rely on that one alone for your "wing" or secondary strengths. Most of us got pretty inconclusive results on that one. If you go back to the links early in the thread, there is one to a site with the RHETI (which may be where you went), but the site also has an alternate Enneagram test which seems more reliable. Take it. And to corroborate your results, go to the Duniho test which uses a totally different methodology (and is also linked back with the rest). It may take the Duniho test to clearly distnguish whether your wing is Four or Six (assuming that you are a Five).

Now, having stated all this, don't ask me whether the Enneagram is worth a damn because I still have not figured it out. Susan is big on it so she can set you straight.

Just thinking about it, I wonder if you might not be a 5w6? You as an INTP might be closer to Virgil (5w6?) than to Robert and me (5w4). It would be interesting to know in light of all the other factors we have analyzed, e.g. ADD, autism, etc.

On 2002-02-11 20:36, Tim Walker wrote:
Concerning people who go into the wrong field-it is my experience that the career counseling field is full of incompetents who have never heard of MBTI, or aptitude testing, or what have you. The field is a haven for space cadets.

If only, my career counselors were Democratic-Farmer-Labor party hacks who were parked in the school district between legislative sessions. Oh, for a space cadet rather than a solon.

I took the Duniho, and got 5[22], 4[10], 1[9], 9[9], and 6[8]. I read the descriptions of 4 and 6. Four to me reads look people I purposely avoid and six like people I get along with only a bit better. This is like taking the MBTI and finding that your personality type is quite unpleasant.

On 2002-02-12 10:28, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:

I took the Duniho, and got 5[22], 4[10], 1[9], 9[9], and 6[8]. I read the descriptions of 4 and 6. Four to me reads look people I purposely avoid and six like people I get along with only a bit better. This is like taking the MBTI and finding that your personality type is quite unpleasant.

LOL! This is part of the problem I have with the Enneagram. You are supposed to have something in common with your Type's neighbors, but I do not see where I have much in common with either Four or Six. Actually, as I recall, I do relate to many elements of the Six, however the "compliant" and "team player" aspect runs totally at odds with me. Meanwhile the four is the overly-emotional "disillusioned artist" and I cannot relate to that at all. However the 5w4 title, the Iconoclast, fits me well. In fact the Four title, the Individualist fits me exceedingly well...despite the fact that I think Bohemian would better fit the Four, based upon the descriptions. (Shouldn't the Five be the Individualist? Maybe the 5w4?) It is just that the standard descriptions (apart from the Five...and the Five only in part) do not match me.

Perhaps no one has really captured the essence of each of these types yet? Or perhaps there are so few types that the thread linking adjacent ones is all but invisible? The closest descriptions are those specific to the Type and Wing combo and there is a link to these earlier in the thread (only one site appears to do them in detail). This Enneagram may begin to make sense if we break the spectrum down to: 1w9, 1, 1w2, 2w1, 2, 2w3, 3w2, 3, 3w4, 4, 4w5, etc. Regardless, Susan probably pegged it right when she stated that the Enneagram appeals to Fs while MBTI appeals to Ts. So the Enneagram may confound us INTPs no matter how hard we try to grasp its meaning.

Now let's look at your results:

You appear to be a 5w4 (which confounds the ADD/autism distinction I was seeking between 5w4 and 5w6...so I understand the Enneagram even less :smile. You show the same secondary (or tertiary) strength in One which all INTPs have been getting. You do not show a similar secondary or tertiary strength in Seven which many of us INTPs have been getting. The Seven description makes sense as the reflection of ADD traits. So it does make sense that you would not be as high here given that you test closer to autism than ADD. Having stated all this, let me point out that Kiff as an ISTJ got the exact same pattern as many of us INTPs: Five with secondary One, Four, and Seven! So how on earth do we make sense of this thing?

I see that you also came out with a strong Nine. This is a new one. Virgil came out with a strong Eight (I think?) which was itself unique. Actually, your Six is not that far removed from your Four. Given a margin of error, you may well be a 5w6!

If you are really a 5w6, then I can begin to make some sense of this thing (refer back to ADD/autism distinction). You ought to go back just a few pages earlier in this thread and find the link I posted to the site with detailed Type+Wing descriptions. In fact I may have pasted in the complete 5w4 and 5w6 descriptions, I cannot remember. But read those 5w4 and 5w6 descriptions and decide which sounds more like you. Perhaps this thing will finally begin to make sense. Then again, maybe not.... :wink:

On 2002-02-12 11:11, Stonewall Patton wrote:
Regardless, Susan probably pegged it right when she stated that the Enneagram appeals to Fs while MBTI appeals to Ts. So the Enneagram may confound us INTPs no matter how hard we try to grasp its meaning.

It certainly seems to me that the MBTI makes more sense.

I gave the test to my husband, who is, at best, dubious about psychological profiling. He tested as an INTJ, which I had predicted he would. He scoffed at the results at first, then he read some of the descriptions on the Keirsey site and said, "hmmm...maybe they've got me pegged after all."

I'm not even going to try the Enneagram with him. :smile: I'm quitting while I'm ahead.

Having stated all this, let me point out that Kiff as an ISTJ got the exact same pattern as many of us INTPs: Five with secondary One, Four, and Seven! So how on earth do we make sense of this thing?

I dunno. :smile:

Kiff '61

On 2002-02-12 11:33, Kiff '61 wrote:

I'm not even going to try the Enneagram with him. :smile: I'm quitting while I'm ahead.

I can imagine the expression on his face if you put that Enneagram before him! He'd say, "What's next, Kiff, are you going read my palm?"

Having stated all this, let me point out that Kiff as an ISTJ got the exact same pattern as many of us INTPs: Five with secondary One, Four, and Seven! So how on earth do we make sense of this thing?

I dunno. :smile:

Kiff, if we look at the types in isolation, then I think it begins to make sense for you personally. For example, your secondary Seven probably reflects your desire to throw back a few beers with the boys while watching football (and tuck a pack of cigs between your shoulder and your t-shirt...OK, OK! Only kidding!) I enjoy similar things and my secondary Seven reflects that. Your secondary One probably reflects an iron will which you may be displaying here when you oppose Ashcroft's (and the administration's) overreaching actions. I have a similar will and I also have a secondary One.

I think this Enneagram clearly picks up different elements of who we are. But what is the thread linking consecutive types? And, if there is none, of what use is the Enneagram ultimately? Why even put the nine types in the order in which they are presented? I just do not get it.

One odd thing is that ISTJ seems to correlate very well with a type 5. ISTJ likely correlates with all IxTxs, however.

On 2002-02-12 11:59, Stonewall Patton wrote:

On 2002-02-12 11:33, Kiff '61 wrote:

I'm not even going to try the Enneagram with him. :smile: I'm quitting while I'm ahead.

I can imagine the expression on his face if you put that Enneagram before him! He'd say, "What's next, Kiff, are you going read my palm?"

:smile:

Kiff, if we look at the types in isolation, then I think it begins to make sense for you personally. For example, your secondary Seven probably reflects your desire to throw back a few beers with the boys while watching football (and tuck a pack of cigs between your shoulder and your t-shirt...OK, OK! Only kidding!)

No cigs, but the rest is pretty accurate. If you add in playing cards for money while watching football and drinking beer, you've got a pretty good idea of how I entertained myself about fifteen years ago. :grin:

I enjoy similar things and my secondary Seven reflects that. Your secondary One probably reflects an iron will which you may be displaying here when you oppose Ashcroft's (and the administration's) overreaching actions. I have a similar will and I also have a secondary One.

Hmmm. It makes sense. I have often been accused of being stubborn and unyielding. I prefer to think of it as being consistent and loyal to my principles. :smile:

I think this Enneagram clearly picks up different elements of who we are. But what is the thread linking consecutive types? And, if there is none, of what use is the Enneagram ultimately? Why even put the nine types in the order in which they are presented? I just do not get it.

I don't, either. Maybe Susan could explain it.

Kiff '61

Back to MBTI. In one of Kiersey's books, I just found out, he even refers specifically to INFJ as "the prophet." You recall in my posts that I said the correlation to the 4 Generation archetypes is with four specific MBTI types, with all the others falling in gradations or mixtures between them. The four types most like the archetypes which I identified are, INFJ = prophet. ESTP = nomad. ENTJ = hero, and ISFP = artist. 4 other types are strongly polarized toward the generational archetypes, but fall in between them. INFP is an artist/prophet. ESTJ is a hero/nomad. INTJ is a hero-prophet, and ESFP is an artist-nomad.

The other 8 types are mixtures of all the generational archetypes, but tending toward one or two of them.

INTP generally leans toward hero with prophet traits. ENTP leans slightly hero and nomad. ISTJ the same. ISTP leans nomad/artist. ESFJ the same. ISFJ leans a bit toward artist/prophet. ENFP the same more strongly. ENFJ leans slightly toward the prophet with a bit of hero.

Generally I see J judging and T thinking as basically hero, E extravert and S sensing as nomadlike, P perceptive and F feeling as artist, and I introvert and N intuitive as prophet.

Another way to slice them up using only the 4 functions is as follows: NF is prophet, NT is hero, ST is nomad and SF is artist.

Eric, INTP with INFP or INFJ tendencies.

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-02-25 12:49 ]</font>

Wow! So much to read. Where've you been, Eric? Glad you're back.

I'll be back later tonight and I'll have to write a post, but right now I have to take care of more mundane activities like cooking dinner and getting the kids to bed.

Eric, that was a very good explanation of how the MBTI types correlate with generational archetypes, and I tend to agree with you, on the whole. However, I don't see Nomads as necessarily Extraverted, or Artists as Sensing. I would switch the E with Prophets, so the Nomad "typical" MBTI would be ISFP or ISTP, and Prophet would be ENFJ or ENTJ.

You might also have noticed, I have made the T and E interchangeable for both Prophets and Nomads. I don't believe Nomads are necessarily less emotional/more thinking than Prophets, or vice versa. As for the Artist being an S, I completely disagree. The essence of this archetype's mindset is intuitive as opposed to sensing. I would say the Hero and Nomad are both S, the Prophet and Artist both N.

But overall, your correlations make sense.
Good to see you around again!

Here I am again! Thanks for your response.

I would ask that you read a description of the ESTP type on the Winer site or another MBTI site. It is so uncannily the Nomad type that it can't be denied to be an exact correlation. Especially Generation X.

I definitely see Nomads as Sensors, much more than Feelers. They are concerned with facts and survival and not with feeling. Some individual Xers may be indeed, but as an archetype Nomads are not empathetic and sentimental; far from it. It's just the facts, just do it. Their interest is action for its own sake, or for survival. Action in the world, and as the warrior. That's why they are Extraverted. They are quite at ease and easily express themselves; however cynical about ideals and the dreams of prophets. Admittedly they are "inner directed" which doesn't quite fit "extraverted" entirely; I guess no correlation can be perfect. And yet, when you read about the ESTP type, as well as the others near it, Nomad is the clear correlation.

Also, the "fieldmarshall" ENTP type can in no way be a prophet; not even close. They are the typical hero; totally engrossed and wedded to the institution. They are leaders, but not inspired leaders, not spiritual leaders. They are planners, oriented to action. They don't make the blueprints; they carry out organizational structure. They are blind and deaf to feelings.

They are the opposite of artists. Artists are indeed sensors, and not intuitives. They relate to what is; the beauty of the here and now, not to possibilities; they are not restless; they are not at all interested in abstractions. In fact, they rebel against them. That's why Silents don't like Strauss and Howe; they reject all generalizations. They prefer to relate to real people, one on one; that's sensing and feeling. Intuitives as MBTI and Jung defines them are not the Zen Buddhist or even the psychic intuitives; intuitive means an interest in the general idea or future ideal possibility rather than the specific fact or experience.

Artist/Adaptives are experiential; thus both S and F, but primarily F, and especially-- P, which encompasses both S and F. They are open, tolerant, indecisive. I think of F as closer to perceptive; even though classed as a way of judging. It is judging through the opposite of judging, in effect; while thinking is the more straightforward kind of judging.

Read the ISFP type and see if they aren't the most typical artist type. They are even called "composers" or are given other artistic labels.

ENFP and ENFJ are fairly typical prophets; but not ENTP. The latter are interested in manipulating the world and objects, not ideas, in a playful and innovative way; they are mavericks, worldly oriented, very adaptive, and don't have the deep convictions of the spiritual prophets.

The most typical prophet, though sometimes portrayed as charismatic and dominant, must in fact be an introvert. Because it is only they who make contact with the sources of inspiration that make them the deep thinkers and visionaries they are, or can be. It is also the requisite of the "narcisism" typical of prophets. It is true they must probably ally themselves with their more extroverted cousins, ENFP and ENFJ, to make a big impact on the world. But the INFJ and INFP types can also become quite charismatic crusaders when push comes to shove. I'm going by the fact that the most important attribute about prophets is their ability to turn within and find spiritual sources of inspiration; and thus bring them into the culture. Prophets do this more than any other type. Thus they are transformers; especially your type INFJ. INTJ can also have strong prophet-like tendencies; prophets are more J than P generally speaking, just as Nomads are more P than J. Heroes are typically J, and artists are VERY typically P.

One problem I might have with MBTI is the tendency to make sensors into very conventional and traditional types. I don't think this is the essense of sensing. But if you DO define sensing as mainly being conventional, then heroes might be more sensing and artists might be more intuitive.

In general though, I think heroes like abstractions, and they have big worldly dreams. That's N. Artists are certainly conventional in youth and early adulthood; maybe they don't entirely shake that off. Certainly they are sensors in the other ways I mentioned. Being artistic (which requires much observation through the senses), wanting to enjoy pleasure, and being people oriented, are typical of the S&H Artist, and of the SF types as well.

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-02-28 02:21 ]</font>

On 2002-02-28 02:10, Eric A Meece wrote:

I definitely see Nomads as Sensors, much more than Feelers. They are concerned with facts and survival and not with feeling. Some individual Xers may be indeed, but as an archetype Nomads are not empathetic and sentimental; far from it. It's just the facts, just do it. Their interest is action for its own sake, or for survival. Action in the world, and as the warrior. That's why they are Extraverted. They are quite at ease and easily express themselves; however cynical about ideals and the dreams of prophets. Admittedly they are "inner directed" which doesn't quite fit "extraverted" entirely; I guess no correlation can be perfect. And yet, when you read about the ESTP type, as well as the others near it, Nomad is the clear correlation.

Eric, I have followed the threads with people trying to define generations by MBTI types, but I have never felt confident that it can be done, at least not by assigning one type to represent a complete generation. For example, by whom do we identify a generation? The N theorists and philosophers or the S actors and practitioners? Perhaps certain generations seem more N and others more S, but we are dealing with real people and a consistent N and S mix within each generation.

For starters, one might want to assign an N type to represent the philosophers or theorists of a given generation. Then one might want to assign a separate S type to represent the "everyday" person commonly associated with the same generation. But I believe it likely that a pattern will emerge between the N and S types for each generation such that the N/S portion might be excluded given the consistency of the remaining aspects between the separate N and S generational partners. So ultimately one type might indeed represent an entire generation if an X takes the place of the N or S (as a start).

Let me try something out very quickly:

Earlier I considered the ideas, theories, and philosophies associated with generational archetypes and arrived at the following IN types as being representative of each generation's intellectual pulse:

INFJ = Prophet
INTP = Nomad
INTJ = Hero
INFP = Artist

There is a high degree of understanding between the introverted and extraverted forms of each type which makes them good working partners. For example, an ENTP understands an INTP intuitively (and vice versa) since their thought processes are so similar, and the INTP's orientation toward theory complements the ENTP's orientation toward application. The E applies and expands what the I conceives. The same probably holds true for INFJ and ENFJ, as well as INFP and ENFP, and finally INTJ and ENTJ.

So we may be able to drop the I/E component and simply state that both I and E cohorts relate to each other and are therefore associated with the same generation. We would simply modify the earlier list as follows:

NFJ = Prophet
NTP = Nomad
NTJ = Hero
NFP = Artist

Now what about the S type for each generation? In the same way that I and E cohorts for each type are closely related, there is also understanding and commonality between the N and S cohorts for each type. For example, the INTP is the architect while the ISTP is the house carpenter, and the ENTP is the inventor while the ESTP is the salesman. The ISTP builds what the INTP designs while the ESTP sells what the ENTP invents. In fact, all four types might correspond to stages of the steam cycle:

INTP = Generation
ENTP = Expansion
ISTP = Condensation
ESTP = Feed

The ENTP inventor applies the ideas of the INTP architect. The ISTP mechanic then builds it and, finally, the ESTP salesman markets it.

Let's apply it to Prophets for the heck of it:

INFJ = Generation
ENFJ = Expansion
ISFJ = Condensation
ESFJ = Feed

The ENFJ teacher communicates the INFJ prophet's vision. The ISFJ adapts it to reality and, finally, the ESFJ spreads the word among the masses in terms they understand.

Let's try Artists:

INFP = Generation
ENFP = Expansion
ISFP = Condensation
ESFP = Feed

The ENFP expands upon the INFP's abstract artistry. This appeals to the ISFP who takes the abstraction and presents it more concretely. The ESFP then highlights its appeal among the masses.

Finally, Heroes:

INTJ = Generation
ENTJ = Expansion
ISTJ = Condensation
ESTJ = Feed

The ENTJ fieldmarshal expands and applies the INTJ mastermind's plan. The ISTJ inspector then implements it and, finally, the ESTJ supervisor enforces it.

So assuming that these quartets of generally related types make for a team representative of the dominant players in different sectors of society for a given generation, then the final typing for each generational archetype would be as follows:

FJ = Prophet = Extraverted Feeling as either dominant or auxiliary. Includes INFJ, ENFJ, ISFJ, and ESFJ.

TP = Nomad = Introverted Thinking as either dominant or auxiliary. Includes INTP, ENTP, ISTP, and ESTP.

TJ = Hero = Extraverted Thinking as either dominant or auxiliary. Includes INTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, and ESTJ.

FP = Artist = Introverted Feeling as either dominant or auxiliary. Includes INFP, ENFP, ISFP, and ESFP.


At first glance, this makes sense. The Prophet's outwardly-directed Feeling is concerned with the "brotherhood of man," the "community of mankind," the "global village." The Nomad's inwardly-directed Thinking produces individualism, anti-authoritarianism, and the ability to adapt in order to survive. The Heroes outwardly-directed Thinking imposes the new order and maintains stability. The Artist's inwardly-directed Feeling humanizes the cold order of the Hero.

Also, the "fieldmarshall" ENTP type can in no way be a prophet; not even close. They are the typical hero; totally engrossed and wedded to the institution. They are leaders, but not inspired leaders, not spiritual leaders. They are planners, oriented to action. They don't make the blueprints; they carry out organizational structure. They are blind and deaf to feelings.

I think you are talking about the ENTJ here, not the ENTP. And Vince Lamb's "unaltered id" contrasts nicely with the "fieldmarshal" persona. Heheheh.

Yes, I meant ENTJ, the fieldmarshall. Thanks for correcting my typo.

I think I am happy with your definitions, since the 4 types I identified as typical are included among your list in the right place, and the others are close to where I put them on the circle.

The use of introverted or extraverted feeling or thinking as primary is a good way of looking at it, although I think for example nomads are action oriented and thus not really thinkers first and foremost, while prophets have more thinking than you credit them (or blame them) with. But your approach does account for the "inner-directedness" of nomads.

On 2002-02-28 13:48, Eric A Meece wrote:

The use of introverted or extraverted feeling or thinking as primary is a good way of looking at it,

Thanks for simplifying my (tentative) conclusion. Let me restate it to make it as simple as possible:

Prophet = Extraverted Feeling (Fe) as dominant or auxiliary = xxFJ --> "brotherhood of man" and "human community," etc.

Nomad = Introverted Thinking (Ti) as dominant or auxiliary = xxTP --> individualism, anti-authoritarianism, adaptation and improvisation for survival, honor as value.

Hero = Extraverted Thinking (Te) as dominant or auxiliary = xxTJ --> imposition of order, maintenance of stability.

Artist = Introverted Feeling (Fi) as dominant or auxiliary = xxFP --> passive humanizing of cold, overbearing order.

although I think for example nomads are action oriented

You may be correct that any Nomad generation tends to have more of an S flavor than an N flavor. However was that true of the Liberty generation? I have probably felt more at home with that generation than any other as an INTP. Even so, perhaps those xSTP "wiseguys" dumping tea in Boston harbor better define the generation. :wink: Certainly any Awakening generation seems more N than S.

Putting all previous approaches aside, I think perhaps the best way to arrive at this generational correlation is to simply ask people who are confident of their true type to identify the generational archetype with which they most closely relate. I am thinking that different xxFJs might key on different aspects of the Prophet more than any other archetype. Different xxTPs would probably key on different aspects of the Nomad. Different xxTJs would probably key on different aspects of the Hero. Different xxFPs would probably key on different aspects of the Artist.

When I say that different xxTPs will key on different aspects of the Nomad, for example, I mean that xSTPs will probably be drawn to those boys dumping tea in Boston harbor as well as perhaps those who managed to "play the game" right during the Gilded Age. xNTPs will probably be drawn to the Founding Fathers as well as perhaps all those great generals known for their strategic brilliance. Different aspects of the Nomad archetype probably appeal to different xxTPs. The same probably holds true for all other types and archetypes.

and thus not really thinkers first and foremost, while prophets have more thinking than you credit them (or blame them) with.

I am merely saying that Fe subordinates Fi, Te, and Ti among Prophets. They are all present but each generational archetype has a unique flavor which seems to accord with these judging functions. Stereotypical Prophets exude Fe.

But your approach does account for the "inner-directedness" of nomads.

That is a good point. If Artists are the other "inner-directed" archetype, then this makes sense.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-02-28 23:14 ]</font>

Prophets are the other "inner-directed" archetype. That is why I think they are basically more introverted and introspective. Some may exude Fe indeed but they are also philosophically and spiritually minded on an individual even more than a community level. It is the prophets especially Boomers who are interested in new age and personal growth things; nomads especially Gen X seem less interested and seem to need it less.

I like the circle of philosopher archetypes you start with; if you take those 4 types alone, they are all what I would consider prophet-like, in that prophets are the philosophers and visionaries. But within that group, I agree with your designation.

I think there are more intellectual visionaries among prophets, more entrepreneurs among nomads, more people providers, counselors and reformers among artists, and more planners among heroes. To some degree you prefer to think there are equal numbers of some of these among the generational types; I don't think so. Obviously though not everyone fits the archetype, and your idea works assuming there are all kinds within a generation; just somewhat differently focused.

Your interpretation has merit and I have saved it in my research file. On my diagram in which I placed all the archetypes on a circle (in an archived post), your layout looks like something like 4 lines, each descending from the spiritual and intellectual realms toward the upper left toward the worldly and experiential realms in the lower right. Each of your types within each generational group is successively further toward the worldly and the experiential scale. For example, the nomad line INTP, ENTP, ISTP, ESTP.

Your hero line extends from the farthest upper left INTJ down the left side towards ESTJ in the lower left. Next is the nomads, starting moderately high and left with INTP, straight down to the most worldly ESTP, below and slightly to the right. Prophets start higher, and further right than nomads, but still on the left side (INFJ), and extend downward and to the right (but not as far down) to ESFJ, and artists form a zig-zagging line along the right side of the circle from INFP down to ESFP.

The 4 poles of the circle are spiritual at the top (prophet), intellectual at the left (hero), worldly at the bottom (nomad) and experiential at the right (artist). They correspond to the 4 parts of the soul: spirit, mind, heart, and body respectively.

The circle however is not a moving circle, which is why the opposites are not the same as those in the seasonal circle.

I wonder if what you have come up with is something like what we have been thinking about with regard to saecula; that is, are there saecula within saecula? Are there types within types?

In your condensation cycle, therefore, each generational type "starts" with its own prophet: (hero-prophet INTJ, nomad-prophet INTP, etc.) and goes through the archetypes within the larger archetype, perhaps to its hero (hero-hero ENTJ, nomad-hero ENTP, etc), to artist (hero- artist ISTJ, nomad-artist ISTP, etc.), to nomad, as the vision becomes more and more practical, and more applied to experience.

Therefore, according to my interpretation of your correlation:

INTJ - hero/prophet (the mastermind)
ENTJ - hero/hero (the fieldmarshall)
ISTJ - hero/artist (the inspector)
ESTJ - hero/nomad (the supervisor)

INTP - nomad/prophet (the designer)
ENTP - nomad/hero (the inventor)
ISTP - nomad/artist (the craftsman)
ESTP - nomad/nomad (the entrepreneur)

INFJ - prophet/prophet (the prophet)
ENFJ - prophet/hero (the pedagogue)
ISFJ - prophet/artist (the conservator)
ESFJ - prophet/nomad (the provider)

INFP - artist/prophet (the visionary healer)
ENFP - artist/hero (the crusader/champion)
ISFP - artist/artist (the composer)
ESFP - artist/nomad (the performer)

Most of these seem to fit pretty well and fit my designation of the 4 most typical types as well.