I will attempt to build a system of MTBI types in turnings. By convention, I will start with the ESTJ type, the Prophet Archetype, and the First Turning. I will do each turning one post at a time. Please critique.

<center><big>First Turning</big></center>

<big>SJs</big>: The SJs tend to be the most trusting of the new civic order, and enforce it rigorously. The entire society revolves around this temperament, and they run society very efficiently.

ESTJ

Prophet: In the 1T, the child ESTJ grows up in paradise. This type quickly adjusts to the rules, and trusts the rules. The adults usually like this child, as this type tends to reflect the order of the 1T.

Artist: In the 1T, the Artist ESTJ is slightly quieter than the other counterparts. As usual, this type is the epitome of the conformism and outer energy the 1T represents. This is likely one type that despised the end of the 4T. This type tends to go into leadership positions, but can never gain the same type of power and leadership that the elder Heroes seem to enjoy.

Hero: In the 1T, the Hero ESTJ enjoys the sunny order. This type tends to bond intimately with the order. Naturally, the ESTJ Hero rises to management positions. They tend to tolerate no lip, and are very intolerant of social argument. This type is perhaps the most powerful type.

Nomad: In the 1T, the Nomad ESTJ enjoys the calm, but enjoys no real cultural or political power. This type constantly tries to maintain order. However, he feels the pressure of the Heroes, who want to push the nation towards a direction that he senses will lead to destruction.

ESFJ

Prophet: Like their Thinking counterparts, the ESFJ grows up in paradise. This type trusts the rules of the order. To this type, the social environment is very harmonious. Male ESFJs, however, might have a much harder time than their female counterparts.

Artist: This Artist ESFJ, unlike their ESTJ counterparts, likely did not despise the end of the 4T. This type blends intimately with the order, and tries to keep harmony in the community, in the workplace (especially if male), and in the home. This is perhaps the epitome of the ideal female of the 1950s.

Hero: The Hero ESFJ enjoys more social power than their Artist counterparts. The community and the home revolve around the female ESFJ. While the ESTJ enjoys power over institutions, the ESFJ has power over the values of the society. This type is likely the type who leaves all of their doors unlocked an open, with total trust in the community, and with everyone else. This type also likely the type to host all of the social events of the community.

Nomad: The Nomad ESFJ is likely psychologically damaged, being ignored. However, they take solace in the growing community they see beneath them, as they finally see an ordered society that they were denied in youth.

ISTJ

Prophet: This type is the dutiful type. In fact, this is probably the type that most emulates the older Artist types. They quickly learn right from wrong. This type also tends to be very patriotic. And heaven help those other types that go against the established way of doing things.

Artist: Where this type differs from the Prophet counterparts is that experiencing the traumatic disorder of the 4T, they feel that society needs a lockdown on dissenters. This type is very patriotic, and is perhaps (with the ISFJ) the most conformist of all types, and in generation, and in any turning. This type tends to closely follow procedure. This type believes what they are told.

Hero: This type tends to be a little more rebellious than the Artists, having experienced the prior 3T. They still feel the hubris of power, but they direct it to the inspection and the building of institutions, and making sure that the machine is well oiled.

Nomad: This type is perhaps the most traditional of all types. Having little or no political power, they are likely the ones to warn everyone else of the dangers of hubris, and of disorder.

ISFJ

Prophet: If female, this is likely the type to idolize the image of the 1950s housewife, in their need to serve others. This type likely tends to develop their Intuitive side more than the others SJs.

Artist: This type tends to be more of a housewife if female. If male, this type likes to serve others in the workplace. However, this type often feels unappreciated. By the end of the 1T, this type just might be wondering the value of serving, when it is getting nothing back.

Hero: This type is more indistinguishable from their Artist counterparts. The ESFJ enjoys the social and communal power, while this type tends to help the ESFJ with their social events. Male ISFJs likely suffer somewhat.

Nomad: In elderhood, the ISFJ does not take the order for granted. Being a Nomad, it is likely that their Thinking side is much more developed than the other types, so this type might imitate the ISTJs.

<big>SPs</big>: While the communal aspect of the 1T comes from the SJs, the SPs radiate its optimism, and give this era its vigor and institutional action.

ESTP

Prophet: This type tends to enjoy the increasing social freedoms that it receives under the care of their Hero parents. Being extraverted, this type tends to be active in sports. But under the veil of freedom, many members of this type might develop their Intuitive their side more.

Artist: Being an ESTP Artist in a 1T is likely not enjoyable. This type likely feels boxed in. This type likely covertly challenges the rules of the 1T by engaging in more sex, and even using mind-altering drugs.

Hero: While being an Artist ESTP is bad, being a Hero ESTP must be great! Because of their age, they enjoy enormous amounts of power. This type has a penchant for action. Because of their charismatic nature, this type provides the excitement for this era. The ESTP can go against many established traditions?and get away with doing so. Witness JFK and Adam Clayton Powell. The ESTP wants to build an empire, and is very self-indulgent, and happily flaunts his rebellious nature, publically. ESTP females, however, do not likely enjoy the same freedom.

Nomad: This type tends to be much more settled than their juniors. After being very active for all of their lives, this type finally decides that it is time to sit back, relax, and let the world pass them by.

ESFP

Prophet: These children tend to enjoy the freedoms. These children love to party often. Born in the freedom and security of a 1T, they tend to develop their Intuitive side, and gravitate towards expressing themselves in a stage-like manor.

Artist: This type, closed in a box, is likely to gravitate towards careers in which they help and care for children. Another good avenue for this type is to work towards a career in show-business. These people know where the party is, and how to have fun.

Hero: In the sunny era of the 1T, the ESFP shines. Because of their feeling side, they do not enjoy nearly the same prestigious as the ESTP, but they do enjoy the same amount of action in community social events. This type is likely the life of any social gathering.

Nomad: Read the Nomad ESTP description.

ISTP

Prophet: The ISTP develops a rebellious nature at an early age. But being Prophets, they can easily get away with it. They likely epitomize the typical ?bad? child of this period. With their Introverted Thinking core, this type raises very fundamental questions about what they see in society.

Artist: This type likely tends to develop their Intuitive side. This type of Artist is rebellious, and exposes the order for what it really is. Many of the beats were very likely ISTPs. This type is likely to try mind-altering drugs.

Hero: This type is not as charismatic as their extraverted counterparts, and is also more rebellious. This does not always bode well for this type. This type tends to be the mechanics of the order.

Nomad: Read the ESTP description.

ISFP

Prophet: This type does not display the same rebelliousness of the ISTP. This type, however, does being to take control of the culture, as the new trends in popular culture revolves around this type. This type, however, does sense moral wrongs.

Artist: This type feels more boxed in, but enjoys the essense of the senses of the outer world. Because of this, the Artist type turns more Intuitive and turns more inwards, trying to cultivate moral perfection in themselves. This type tends to be free spirited.

Hero: This type is very invisible in the Hero generations. Because of it, it is very likely that the ISFP works with the younger people to build an air of rebelliousness in them, and to implant morality and spirituality into the order.

Nomad: Like their Hero counterparts, the ISFP Nomad is invisible. They, too, seem to try to build a sense of moral perfection in society.

<big>NFs</big>: The NF temperament is perhaps the most invisible one during the 1T. This temperament tends to build a new values system for the Awakening.

ENFJ

Prophet: This type likely enjoys the social harmony of the 1T. Where the ESFJ trusts the rules of the order, this type tends to ignore the rules, and rather focus on the morale of the people.

Artist: Because of their extraverted and charismatic nature, ENFJ Artists likely make large inroads in life. Taking advantage of educational opportunities, the ENFJ can easily move up the social ladder. In a spirit dead world, the ENFJ is the cornerstone of morale.

Hero: The ENFJ Hero has an air of hubris. This type likely looks more like their ENTJ cousins. They have a vision of where the community or organization should go, and push towards it. Because of their Extraverted Feeling nature, this type tends to have many, many followers.

Nomad: In old age, the Nomad finally decides that it is time to rest from action. Feeling unloved, it is likely that this type will feel unloved. However, this type is likely to still have control of the spiritual regime.

ENFP

Prophet: These extraverted children are very socially active, always thinking of new possibilities of romantic ideals. They are usually fun to be around. These children can likely get anything they want.

Artist: An Artist ENFP and a 1T do not go together. This type tends to feel extremely boxed in. But they do provide a very vivacious nature that many find compelling.

Hero: The Hero ENFP also seems very out of place. It is likely that this type will be forced to develop its Judging side more, and act more like an ENFJ.

Nomad: It is likely that the ENFP rebuild a penchant for rebellion in the younger people. Always thinking of possibilities, they infuse the child Prophets with a purpose.

INFJ

Prophet: These children, very early on, develop very strong spiritual and religious tendencies. They tend to be attracted to education, and to church.

Artist: These are likely heavy church-goers. However, in a church in which works is more important than spirituality, the INFJ yearns to set out on a personal journey to find the influence of god on the world, and on humanity. The INFJ wants to serve others, helping them to find their true, personal selves, and their connection with god.

Hero: Like their ISFJ counterparts, it is likely that the INFJ values serving others. But rather than serving institutions, the Hero serves individuals personally, boosting their morale, and trying to revive a sense of spirituality in an age of god-is-dead secularism.

Nomad: Even at this old age, INFJs are searching for perfection. They help the younger people achieve their objectives, while fearing where hubris will lead.

INFP

Prophet: Very inwardly focused, the INFP enjoys the freedoms of the 1T. Where they differ from the INFJs is that while the INFJ tends to use their Extraverted Feeling function to direct their energies towards people, the INFP uses their Introverted Feeling function to direct their energies directly towards their inner value system. At an early age, the INFP wants to project this inner spirituality on the outer world.

Artist: Where the ISFP detects moral failures in the outer world through their senses, the INFP detects moral failures in the inner world through their intuition. The INFP is likely the beat poets of the 1950s.

Hero: This type is also very invisible in this generation. This type tends to keep their thoughts very inwards, only revealing them during the second turning. Because of their very other-worldliness, they are unlikely to attempt to arouse rebellion in the younger generations.

Nomad: Where the Hero is quiet, the Nomad is louder. They want to put a stop to the moral failures of the Hero?s institutional order. They are much more likely to arouse rebellion in the younger generations.

<big>NTs</big>: NTs tend to be very visible. Perhaps, more than any other temperament, the NT can get away with their irreverence for the institutional order. In the sunny 1T, NTs tend to feel a very godlike power over nature, and over objects. They work to increase this power, and push civilization to more and more knowledge, science, and rationality. In fact, this temperament practically wants to become god. These are the ones who idealize a future with infinite technological advance, wealth, and freedom.

ENTJ

Prophet: These children show a lot of drive early on in life. These ENTJs seem to be a little odd being Prophet children, and might not enjoy as much popularity.

Artist: Blocked by the Hero generation, the ENTJ likely takes up the role of an INTJ, while trying to get an army together to push towards goals.

Hero: This type epitomizes the midlife Hero. What happens when you take an ENTJ, and give him Hero-like hubris? You get a very forceful and VERY powerful individual that everyone follows, and no one dares to question. This type seems to actually have godlike power to people around them. They tend to have incredible outer-world drive to push their concepts through.

Nomad: This type, just like their ESTJ cousins, is very likely to become president during a High. But even in this elder stage, the ENTJ can match the Hero generations in their forceful power.

ENTP

Prophet: The ENTP is socially active, and also eccentric, which bodes well. The ENTP can be charismatic, always getting what he wants. He likely works on projects alone, his curious nature wanting to learn about the outer world.

Artist: The ENTP is not rebellious, per se, but is a non-conformist. They can be charismatic, and can get away with some of the same things than an ESTP can. Because of their inventive nature, they can gravitate towards business. This type makes very good lawyers, and can find problems in the civic order of the Heroes, which is a skill they will use in an Awakening.

Hero: Their hubristic nature can cause them to take control of a group in a similar fashion to that of an ENTJ, but they apply their inner world concepts to the outer world. They usually enjoy a lifetime of invention.

Nomad: I doubt that the Nomad will rest even at his elder stage. Still looking for possibilities, he will chafe at the disregard that the younger generations show to him.

INTJ

Prophet: At an early age, the INTJ displays a penchant for applying their inner world concepts to the outer world. In a world in which science is benign, the INTJ can shine in this world.

Artist: INTJs have a tendency to build. But because the Heroes have already done the building, the Artist has to satisfy himself with perfecting the constructions of the Hero.

Hero: Hubristic, outwardly scientific, and very self-confident, the INTJ builds the institutional order for the High. Not only that, INTJs are very heavily engaged in scientific research and in maintaining a rational system of thought for the outer world. They can resemble ENTJs, and become quite forceful and quite powerful.

Nomad: This INTJ is much more conservative than his Hero counterpart. Having experienced the Awakening, they know what could happen to their projects and plans.

INTP

Prophet: At an early age, the INTP displays a penchant for applying their outer world possibilities towards their inner world of ideas. The INTP easily sees the problems in the institutional order. Where the ISTP raises fundamental questions about how society works, the INTP raises fundamental questions about the philosophical errors of the order. The INTP, being rebellious as the ISTP, can get away with it because of his philosophical nature.

Artist: Like the INTJ, the INTP is left to perfect the designs of the institutional order, which the other types will implement. This breed of INTP is very supremely intellectual, and is able to cut VERY deeply into the problems of society with his speech. However, the INTP is never taken seriously. While the ISTP is likely to be much more direct in his critique of society, the INTP?s critique is likely to be subtle, but very biting. While noticing the failures of society.

Hero: Very hubristic. These Heroes tend to be arrogant. Having designed the order, they are more protective of it than the other INTPs. Their penchant for the precision of thought rarely gets them in trouble. They work very hard on their inner world thoughts, which they hope others will apply. This type tends to be very scientific, but while the INTJ directs their science towards the outer world, the INTP directs their science towards the inner world of abstractions, theories, and blueprints. This type tends to be very publicly irreverent. Unlike their Artist counterparts, this INTP is taken seriously. But for some reason, they can get away with it. Think of Arthur C. Clarke.

Nomad: Like their Hero counterparts, the Nomad INTP can criticize society, and get away with it. They tend to be more conservative, but never lose their love of liberty of thought.

Next, I will do the Awakening. Now that should be interesting.

Wow! How do you find time to write all that?
It's pretty interesting though. I'm looking forward to the "next installment." :smile:

On 2002-03-05 11:31, Susan Brombacher wrote:
Wow! How do you find time to write all that?
It's pretty interesting though. I'm looking forward to the "next installment." :smile:

It took me about an hour to write this, but you just need to make sure you understand the categories completely.

That's really interesting Robert. I was thinking about the four personality archetypes this morning and it occured to me that SJs look to the past and are interested in history, NFs and NTs look to the future and are interested in possibilities, and SPs look to the present and are interested in active experience. So, it makes sense that almost everyone here is an SJ, NF or NT, and that there are very few (if any?) SPs.

On 2002-03-05 14:31, Neisha '67 wrote:
That's really interesting Robert. I was thinking about the four personality archetypes this morning and it occured to me that SJs look to the past and are interested in history, NFs and NTs look to the future and are interested in possibilities, and SPs look to the present and are interested in active experience. So, it makes sense that almost everyone here is an SJ, NF or NT, and that there are very few (if any?) SPs.

It would be interesting to do a little investigation and find out if most of the NFs and NTs here post on the topics relating to the future, and more of the SJs post on topics about history itself.

On 2002-03-05 14:31, Neisha '67 wrote:
That's really interesting Robert. I was thinking about the four personality archetypes this morning and it occured to me that SJs look to the past and are interested in history, NFs and NTs look to the future and are interested in possibilities, and SPs look to the present and are interested in active experience. So, it makes sense that almost everyone here is an SJ, NF or NT, and that there are very few (if any?) SPs.

I would agree.

This is from an email discussion that took place between myself and Stonewall. I think it's really a fascinating analogy and belongs here. (Stonewall, hope you don't mind that I am cutting and pasting this).


STONEWALL: I thought of another way to separate INTP from INFP while simultaneously conveying their closeness. That Enneagram shows the proximity when we consider that INTP typically is 5w4 and "iconoclast," and INFP typically is directly next door as 4w5 and "bohemian." This area of the spectrum is also interesting in that it appears to represent the merging of art and science, the INTP/5w4 emphasizing science over art and the INFP/4w5 emphasizing art over science. Put in a different way, the INTP/5w4 may pursue science as an art while the INFP/4w5 may pursue art as a science.

But consider also that the merging of science and art also represents the merging of truth and beauty, respectively. The INTP/5w4 sees beauty in truth and the INFP/4w5 sees truth in beauty. When the INTP/5w4 pursues science as an art, he is looking for beauty in the truth. When the INFP/4w5 pursues art as a science, he/she is looking for truth in beauty. See how that works? Neat.

I have not thought this through yet but it may well explain how an INFP may love poetry while an INTP may not. It may also explain how an INTP may love crudity and an INFP may not. It would all have to do with the difference between finding beauty in truth and finding truth in beauty. Interesting.

Very nice discussion Stonewall and Susan. Of course I identify myself with the gap between INFP and INTP, as I identify with 4/5 and those two MBTI types.

I like to relate all these correlations with my philosophy circle. If you want to read about it you can go to:
http://www.california.com/~eameece/philosophycircle.htm

It adds to the interesting place of the 4/5 gap by seeing it as spiritualist pole of philosophy. That is where, as Stonewall said, truth and beauty come together, or the inner feelings and inner thought. It is interesting that there is no one Enneagram type for this spiritualist area.

I see the "purple" gap between 4 and 5, which is also between INTP and INFP, and probably also relates strongly to INFJ, as the spiritualist pole in the philosophy circle.

Types 3 and 2 are on the emotional or existential side of my philosophy circle, along with INFP and ENFP. I see ISFJ and ESFJ as classic "helper" types on the feeling side. The ENFJ teacher may fit in these types but is also spiritualist inclined IMO.

5 and INTP is also of course on the intellectual side, along with types 1 reformer (INTJ) and 6 skeptic (ISTJ).

I also see 8 and ENTJ as intellectual and 9 and ISFP as emotional, but more akin to J and P respectively. 8s and 9s are described in terms of their outer actions only, and don't seem to have much of a psychological side (thinking or feeling). But I put J on the same side of the circle as T, and P on the same side as F, even though Feeling is "a kind of judging" in MBTI. So ENTJ/8 is Judging par excellance, and ISFP/9 is Perceptive to the extreme. Also, judging is active and perceptive is passive. That describes 8 and 9 too respectively.

The closest types to materialists would probably be types 7 (the hedonist) and 6 (the security-seeker), and the ISTJ, ESTJ ESFP and ESTP types. One might expect the easy-going and nihilistic 9 to be the materialist, as the opposite of 4/5 on the enneagram "color wheel," but it seems not so. I see 9 as classic P style.

Generally I see:
Spiritualist/Active = prophet = INFJ 1/4/5
Intellectual/Active = hero = ENTJ 1/5/6/8
Emotional/Passive = artist = ISFP 2/3/4/7/9
Materialist/Passive = nomad = ESTP 6/7

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-03-05 16:51 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-03-05 16:56 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-03-06 23:57 ]</font>

<center><big>Second Turning</big></center>

<big>SJs</big>: Depending on the generation, the SJs can be against or for the
new values regime. For many SJs, this era represents a social crisis.

ESTJ

Nomad: In the 2T, the Nomad finds it hard to find something to take root with.
Seeing his elders rebel and riot. The ESTJ normally retains his reputation as
the pillar of the community. The Awakening, however, gives kids a bad
reputation. Eventually, the ESTJ sees no point in conforming with the system,
disconnects, and searches for his own security. Turning towards realism, the
ESTJ will resemble the ISTJ more.

Prophet: The 2T can begin as a horrifying experience, growing up in such a
secure world. Some will eventually join the 2T, while others will start an
Awakening of their own, searching for the concepts that make up the older order,
and respiritualizing it.

Artist: The 2T can likewise be a horrifying experience against this type. As
the fervor goes on, this ESTJ will mimic the younger Prophets in their search
for moral orthodoxy in a world of social turmoil.

Hero: The ESTJ Hero tends to be hubristic, and pays dearly. This type is
heavily attacked by the Prophets for being morally corrupt. They retain
institutional power, while distancing themselves from the culture.

ESFJ

Nomad: Harmony and a 2T seems like a contradiction. As they grow up, they see
decreasing harmony. As a result, they turn relatively cynical. Being left
relatively alone, this type can turn towards a sharp realism, using their
Introverted Sensing. This type will become more like the ISFJ.

Prophet: In a 2T, the Prophet ESFJ will either see that the Awakening side is
fighting harmony, or the conservative side of harming it. In either case, the
ESFJ will find no point in propping up the old moral system, and will eventually
join the spiritual renewal. Many will gravitate towards the new liberals, while
the others will gravitate towards an orthodox moralism. Those who do become
liberal will see the new values regime as a path to social harmony.

Artist: Having been so used to social harmony, the ESFJ will likely find the new
Awakening to be a frightening experience at the beginning. However, this type
will attempt to mediate between the warring factions, and rebuild the harmony.
Eventually, this type tends towards an acceptance of diversity seeing it as the
path to harmony.

Hero: Having experienced the 3T, the ESFJ will not be as traumatized as the
other generations of the Awakening. The ESFJ will be discouraged at the loss of
social harmony, but being old, the ESFJ will decide to slow down, and enjoy
life.

ISTJ

Nomad: Born in the chaos of the 2T, the Nomad seeks to find stability and order.
The ISTJ quickly finds this to be an impossible task. As a result, the ISTJ
gravitates towards a cynical realism, and a very strong individualism,
alienating himself from society.

Prophet: Seeing the security and order waste away, the ISTJ first battles
against the new order, and then joins a growing movement towards an individual
search for moral orthodoxy.

Artist: The ISTJ likely joins the Heroes in trying to keep order in society.
However, as the tumult continues, the ISTJ will see no point in holding his
ground. The ISTJ will join the Prophets in a search for order, and eventually,
moral orthodoxy.

Hero: The 2T is a direct affont to everything the Hero ISTJ represents. As a
result, the ISTJ is normally very much against the 2T. This type may even
continue to run against it to the very end.

ISFJ

Nomad: See Nomad ISTJ.

Prophet: The ISFJ will experience the trauma, and then join the movement in
order to promote harmony. The ISFJ will throw away her old set of values, and
adopt a completely new one.

Artist: See Artist ESFJ.

Hero: The ISTJ will feel anxiety over the growing disorder. But beind as old as
she is, she will merely disconnect from the culture.

<big>SPs</big>: Where the 2T can begin as a traumatic experience for SJs, the 2T
is a very liberating and fun experience for the SP temperament.

ESTP

Nomad: The Nomad can enjoy the freedoms, but seeing the tumult, the ESTP quickly
learns that the order is bad, and that personal liberty is good. With no one
around to raise them, the ESTP's penchance for action can cause them to turn
towards crime. This type turns towards a sharp realism.

Prophet: Seeing the euphoria of the 2T, the ESTP searches for experiences. This
contributes to much more risk taking, more illicit sex, and the use of
mind-altering substances. Many communes are formed by ESTPs. For the less
fortunate ESTPs, and especially those of a lower class, crime can skyrocket.
For those in education, the ESTP can become the charismatic rebels who speak
loudly against the establishment, and engage in riots.

Artist: The 2T is a very liberating experience for the Artist ESTP. Being
locked inside a box, the ESTP now bursts out, trying to experience the pleasures
of living while he is not yet old. Drugs and sex are popular for this group
too, as is risk taking.

Hero: The ESTP quickly engages in the art of pleasure seeking. The ESTP retains
his hubristic nature, but still falls from grace as corrupt. Witness Adam
Clayton Powell's fall during the 1960s, and the fall of LBJ.

ESFP

Nomad: This type tends to be very popular, and can engage in sex at an early
age. Like the ESTP, the ESFP will learn to disregard the order, and look
towards a more individualist, and more inwardly fulfilling role. Drugs can
become relatively common with this type.

Prophet: In the euphoria of the 2T, the ESFP searches for sensual and emotional
experiences, meaning that this type likely has plenty of sex, and uses a lot of
drugs. This type characterizes the more extraverted hippies. Life is often a
party for this type. This type is likely the one who writes Awakening era
music.

Artist: The Artist ESFP breaks away from the order, and engages in her mid-life
passage, softening the younger generation, while engaging in pleasure seeking.
With the Prophets, thus type also writes Awakening era music.

Hero: This type is more invisible during the 2T. However, where visible, it is
likely that ESFP does not join the tumult. However, she does engage in her fair
share of pleasure seeking.

ISTP

Nomad: This type is very individualist, and very libertarian. Since the older
ISTPs have already raised the fundamental questions, the child Nomads seek to
make their own way in society. This type is less likely to be engaged in crime
than the ESTPs since Extraverted Sensing is second for them. Extraverted
Sensing in service of Introverted Thinking means that they tend to be very sharp
realists. Add in the Nomad points, and you have the ultimate realist.

Prophet: Like their extraverted cousins, they tend to search for experiences.
However, they are more likely to raise very fundamental questions that will have
repercussions half a saeculum later. While they have a sharp-eyed realism, they
also have an air of idealism. As deep thinkers of the reality of the
situation, they have no sense of shame, and will not hesitate to rage against
the "motherf**kers" who are "oppressing" them, although they are less likely to
riot and more likely to speak against the establishment and smoke marijuana for
insight. While always yelling for "revolution", they never get it off the
ground. Picture Steve Hyde on That 70's Show. This type redefines "cool".

Artist: The ISTPs also engage in pleasure seeking, and drug use. However, this
Artist gravitates towards personal action and personal risk taking. This is a
very liberating experience for them, finally being able to break out of the
social box. This type is also a common leader of social movements, and they
lead the younger Prophets to rage against society.

Hero: Still individualistic, the Hero ISTP finds a lot of fun in the new 2T.
Being introverted, they are much more likely to escape the disgrace that the
ESTP experiences.

ISFP

Nomad: The ISFP Nomad enjoys her freedom in childhood. Like the other SPs, she
will engage in self-indulgence. This type will behave like their ESFP cousins,
but in a more spiritual way.

Prophet: This type epitomizes the flower picking children of the Awakening.
Because of their Extraverted Sensing in service of Introverted Feeling, this
type will find beauty in the world. This will contribute to a new spiritual
movement that is focused on the resacralization of the world. Because of this,
the ISFP will attempt a return to nature and to naturalistic tendencies. The
ISFP will come out with the major fashions that comply with the spiritual
movement. The colorful and naturalistic clothing of the hippie movements were
largely constructions of the ISFP. This type is also very drawn to art, and is
very self-absorbed.

Artist: Too old to join the new youth movements, this type will break out of the
box experiencing the essense of the world. Engaged in a very deep spiritualism,
this type will attempt to lead the new spiritual youth movements.

Hero: The Hero ISFP is also invisible. However, this elder may even join the
youth in the search for resacralization in the world.

<big>NFs</big>: While invisible in the 1T, this temperament returns to the
limelight...with a vengeance. The NFs are on a search for moral conviction in
society.

ENFJ

Nomad: Seeing the disharmony of the Awakening, the child ENFJ can be frightened
by it. This type would hate to be left out, and may turn more cynical, while
helping to raise the morale of her peers.

Prophet: Rejecting the spirit dead secular order, the ENFJ will use her
charisma to spread the word of "god". While raising the morale of the group, the
ENFJ will help the society in the search for their soul, and will help the
people to better themselves.

Artist: This ENFJ will attempt to raise the morale of both the Heroes and
Prophets, and attempt to mediate between them (with some success) to promote
harmony.

Hero: This ENFJ will act like their Artist cousins, trying to raise the morale
of society.

ENFP

Nomad: Like the ENFJs, the ENFPs will despise being left out. As a rule, they
will turn towards cynicism. Rejecting the order, and totally rejecting
conventions, the ENFP will look for new possibilities where they now seem
endless.

Prophet: The Prophet will search for possibilities for a new humanistic order.
They spread their romantic idealism to the masses, while engaging in
self-indulgence.

Artist: This type will also engage in self-indulgence and romantic idealism, but
will largely use their energies to keeping the Awakening from disintegrating
into total chaos.

Hero: Having developed more of a judging side, this type will act more like an
ENFJ in elderhood.

INFJ

Nomad: Being left out, this type will search for her own spiritualism. They
will do this in a very individualist way. As they see the disintegration of the
order, they grow more self protective and cynical.

Prophet: Born in the spirit dead 1T, this INFJ will pursue a very aggressive
moralism, taking the morality born of the Awakening, and infusing it to form a
new religious and spiritual movement. The search for moral conviction gives
this type a very principled quality. They will resurrect god, and feel a
personal responsibility to spread the word of god to others, and to perfect
themselves according to their new religious insights, while rejecting the
Glacial Age of Religion.

Artist: This breed of INFJ will likely help their Prophet siblings in the
resurrection of spirituality. They will reject worldly privilege.

Hero: The INFJ hero is still pretty invisible. However, they will join the
other INFJs in the search for moral conviction.

INFP

Nomad: The INFP will see a lot of chaos. But being as introverted as she is, it
won't bother her as it does the other types. What will bother her, however, is
the evilness of humanity. As a result, this type tends to turn towards a
cynicism.

Prophet: Very, very self-absorbed. The epitome of "idealistic". This quiet,
very poetic type finds beauty in the world of ideas. Using Extraverted
Intuition in service of Introverted Feeling, this type seeks to extract the
essense of the possibilities from the outer world. This type then builds a very
deep inner spirituality which will later become ideologies. Engaged in the
search for resacralization, the INFP will write new poetry, and spread the world
of their new inner concepts towards the outer world. Where the INFJ searches
for god, and seeks to perfect herself and those around her, the INFP works
directy towards ideologies, and thinks about how to improve the society for
humanistic purposes instead of helping people search for themselves. This type
builds new ideologies.

Artist: This type is a lot like the Prophets, but they are often the leaders of
new spiritual and ideological movements.

Hero: See the INFP Artist.


<big>NTs</big>: For the rational temperament, the 2T has both frustrations and
excitements.

ENTJ

Nomad: The fieldmarshall tends to have a tough time, as social cooperation is
difficult. As a result, the fieldmarshall cynically becomes more like an INTJ.

Prophet: This type seems like an enigma of a 2T. His peers are more likely to
gravitate towards the ENFJ. Only a splattering of nerds remain to join the ENTJ
on his quest.

Artist: This type tends to see the 2T as more of a disappointment, seeing the
society disintegrate. As an Extraverted Thinker, he search for order, and
cannot find it. As a result, he eventually gives up, and joins the tumult, but
does it in a very individual way.

Hero: Being very used to social cooperation, the 2T can be very frustrating for
this type. Having his hubris attacked, this ENTJ will likely eventually give up
on the young, and continue to engage in progress with his own peers.

ENTP

Nomad: Like the ENFP, this type searches for possibilities in the outer world.
This Nomad is discouraged by the irrationalism of the elders. As a result, he
disconnects from society, and makes his own way, using his creative and
inventive skills to survive.

Prophet: The ENTP Prophets are likely to agree with the new values regime. In
doing so, the ENTP looks for ways to make it work for him. This period provides
an intellectual experience for the ENTP.

Artist: The Artist ENTP will likely agree with the new values system. The ENTP
Artist is likely a legal genius, and can use their skills to tear down the
institutions not in line with the new values regime.

Hero: The ENTP may disconnect from the new culture easily. However, he pursues
his own individual course for the mastery of shaping the outer world to his
concepts. The ENTP continues with the grand constructions of society.

INTJ

Nomad: The Nomad INTJ will likely disconnect early. Being ridiculed as a nerd
or geek by his peers, he is likely to withdraw, and to pursue a very aggressive
individualism.

Prophet: The INTJ rejects the irrationalism of the 2T. However, the INTJ, like
his Feeling counterpart, pursues a path to self-perfection. While this type
will not search for "god" and for himself, he will search for the mastery of the
physical world, and will assist the Heroes in their secular constructions.

Artist: The Artist INTJ seems a little out of place. However, he will behave in
a similar way to the Prophet. He will show an irreverance for both the civic
order and the new values regime.

Hero: In elderhood, the INTJ hubristically works feverishly to shape the outer
world according to his inner concepts. Searching for an infinite power over
nature, this type will largely ignore the new youth culture, while continuing on
his mission for perfection, while chafing at how the rebellion saps his energy.

INTP

Nomad: Like the INTJs, this type is ridiculed for being a geek in an age in
which intellectual is looked down upon. The INTP will pursue the same path as
the INTJ, pursuing a very agressive individualism, and defining his own
standards.

Prophet: During the 2T, this type pursues his intellectualism, applying it to
the new spiritual concepts, and building a blueprint for it. Believing heavily
in principle, this INTP will likely join the Awakening. While they are very
unlikely to riot, they will help produce a lot of new thought pertaining to the
2T. They will search for a logical purity in the world of ideas. They will use
science to improve society towards the ideal.

Artist: For the Artists, being an INTP can be a great experience. They are
likely to become leaders of the new values regime, building platforms by which
they can become the culture warriors of a 3T.

Heroe: This breed of INTP finds the new culture totally irreverant. They will
support some of the ideas, but will disconnect themselves from the culture, and
continue to work on their rational blueprints, and continue to build knowledge.

Stay tuned for the Unraveling Era.

On 2002-03-04 16:28, Neisha '67 wrote:
Hey I have a question for all you fellow visual thinkers. Do you have trouble distinguishing left and right?

No. Actually, I have a very sharp sense of direction.

This is a concept I have never grasped -- my brain simply does not divide the world into "left" and "right." I don't think I am dyslexic, I have never had problems reversing letters or difficulty in school or any other symptom of dyslexia. I just don't think in terms of left and right. It could be because I am left-handed. It also could be because I think in three dimensions and tend to automatically rotate things in my head, to get a better sense of them, so things on the "right" don't really stay on the right, if this makes sense. I need to visualize things and then view them from all angles. On the other hand, I have no difficulty with East and West, and am generally great at reading maps, directions, etc. Anyone else with this going on?

I tend to read maps well too, am very good with directions, and am able to visualize 3D shapes from all directions. However, I never had any trouble with left versus right.

As for being a lawyer, I think that I would make a good one, but because of the flaws of the criminal system, I absolutely refuse to become a lawyer. I would despise having to prosecute someone who I know is innocent (especially with capital punishment), or defending someone who I know is guilty.

Neisha, I'm very visual too. I still have trouble with right and left. I have a great visual and color memory, read maps, rarely if ever get lost. But everyone who knows me has said at least once "no, your other left!"
It's nice to know someone else struggles with this too.

On 2002-03-04 22:14, Vince Lamb '59 wrote:

It's actually fairly mild and controlled--my anger was mostly for effect. If you really want to see me blow a gasket, you'll have to read rec.arts.marching.drumcorps, where I've won "Best Response to Flame" at least twice.

Rec.arts.marching.drumpcorps??? The one place in the world where Vince blows a gasket is on rec.arts.marching.drumcorps??? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA! And I love the way that "drumpcorps" here is filed under "arts" to take its rightful place alongside Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Monet, and Picasso. But of all the places on God's green earth, if anybody ever wants to see Vince Lamb really, REALLY blow his top, then a virtual journey to rec.arts.marching.drumcorps is necessary! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's a matter, Vince? :evil: Can't keep your cadence, huh? :razz: :razz: :razz:

Robert, how does Vince's emotional trauma surrounding drum corps figure into your nerd/geek distinction?

Vince, I followed the links and never in my life would I have ever imagined that a place like rec.arts.marching.drumpcorps...er, excuse me, RAMD...could be such a haven for subversive activity. Your posts indicate that drum jockeys experience an inability to adapt to civilian life. They suffer some sort of shell shock or battle fatigue. They are disgruntled and disillusioned. They're mad and they're not gonna take it anymore! No doubt, they typically form renegade bands and join the ranks of the criminal underworld. A tour in drum corps might as well be on a par with a visit to the House of the Rising Sun.

I am now inclined to believe that the members of the A-Team likely comprised the elite of a drum corps originally. Hell's Angels probably got their start in this way. Hell, Rambo probably did too. Vince, you are in good company. Just keep it between the lines, man. Don't lose your grip and don't drop your cadence. :lol: :lol: :lol:

On 2002-03-04 23:30, Vince Lamb '59 wrote:

I've been working on this from the perspective of parental orientation. I've found that some of the links between types work very well. A few are difficult and two in particular make absolutely no sense from that perspective.

Here's my analysis so far:

Hudson and Riso posit that each Enneagram type arises from a distinct parental orientation, in which one is either connected to, ambivalent about, or disconnected from ones nurturing figure (mother), protective figure (father), or both. Graphing this produces a 3x3 matrix:

........................Mother.....Both....Father
Connected to:.........3...........9..........6
Ambivalent about....8...........5..........2
Disconnected from..7...........4..........1

Some of the connections are obvious. 1 is....

This is a pretty good analysis, Vince. It makes sense. Perhaps this might provide another avenue for making those MBTI correlations.

On 2002-03-06 07:26, Stonewall Patton wrote:

Robert, how does Vince's emotional trauma surrounding drum corps figure into your nerd/geek distinction?

Sure glad you're not too condescending.

On 2002-03-06 08:51, Croaker'39 wrote:

On 2002-03-06 07:26, Stonewall Patton wrote:

Robert, how does Vince's emotional trauma surrounding drum corps figure into your nerd/geek distinction?

Sure glad you're not too condescending.

I don't know what you mean, Croaker. I originally skipped over Vince's posts because the page upon which they reside is trashed. However he mentioned his posts to me in passing, so I went back, finally read them, and responded to them. He can dish it out and he can take it and he knows that I am only razzing him.

Now don't you have some Christians somewhere to condescend to? Good luck ramming your Darwinian faith down their throats.

If you consider Darwinian evolution a "faith," Stonewall, then what do think of gravity?

Robert:

Your turning/type analysis is something else. I cannot believe that each part only took an hour to write because it takes longer than that to absorb. This really helps with what I was considering with respect to generational philosophical orientation and Crisis resolution. Thanks, and keep on going through the remaining two turnings.

Stonewall:

Thanks. For some reason, the Awakening segment took 2 hours to write. Last night, I started writing the third installment, and am 2/3rds finished with it. However, since I am at school, I will not be able to finish it until this afternoon.

On 2002-03-04 22:39, Vince Lamb '59 wrote:

:lol:

True, but an ENTJ knows a good thing when he sees it and quickly learns how to apply it!

true

*snicker*

UC Berkeley is known for the invention of two things--LSD and UNIX. This is not a coincidence!

Berkeley invented UNIX, but not LSD. They did, however pioneer it. :smile:

On 2002-03-05 15:40, Susan Brombacher wrote:

STONEWALL: I thought of another way to separate INTP from INFP while simultaneously conveying their closeness. That Enneagram shows the proximity when we consider that INTP typically is 5w4 and "iconoclast," and INFP typically is directly next door as 4w5 and "bohemian." This area of the spectrum is also interesting in that it appears to represent the merging of art and science, the INTP/5w4 emphasizing science over art and the INFP/4w5 emphasizing art over science. Put in a different way, the INTP/5w4 may pursue science as an art while the INFP/4w5 may pursue art as a science.

But consider also that the merging of science and art also represents the merging of truth and beauty, respectively. The INTP/5w4 sees beauty in truth and the INFP/4w5 sees truth in beauty. When the INTP/5w4 pursues science as an art, he is looking for beauty in the truth. When the INFP/4w5 pursues art as a science, he/she is looking for truth in beauty. See how that works? Neat.

I find this to be very true. I just love reading about the theories of the universe, and see beauty in them. And the fact that the universe can be understood using mathematics is also a beauty.

This beauty in truth, however, does come with its own set of problems. In many ways, this beauty in truth may be caused by the Fe function secretly entering. This is very apparent when reading the works of Carl Sagan. The problem with this can be a loss of objectivity. What I find is that many INTPs can develop an emotional or religious attachment to theories, as they find so much beauty in it. One person I spoke to was very adamant that Einstein could not be wrong because Special Relativity was "too beautiful". We have to remember that objective truth cannot be contaminated with emotions nor bias.

I would then suspect that INFPs, on the other hand, covertly use their inferior Te to justify beauty. But can objective truth be applied to emotional beauty?

I have not thought this through yet but it may well explain how an INFP may love poetry while an INTP may not. It may also explain how an INTP may love crudity and an INFP may not. It would all have to do with the difference between finding beauty in truth and finding truth in beauty. Interesting.

This has got to be one of the weirdest observations I made about myself. Reading poetry is an impossible task for me. I can read any computer book, and can even read books on science, even if the math is beyond my ability. Even though I don't understand the specific concepts of the math (I have not yet learned tensor calculus or differential equations...yet), I still have an intuitive understanding of what the equations mean, and the logic of them. I am taking Discrete Math, and find it to be VERY easy. I guess that class was made for Ti. I also find that I can read code easily, and can generate code on the fly in my mind.

But when it comes to poetry, my mind shuts off. For a one page poem, I usually have to read it about 10 times to get an understanding it. If the poem is more than a few pages long, then just forget about it. Someone would have to translate the poem to logic. Poetry does not yield to logical analysis. And when I do read poetry, I have to read it out loud, likely because it would help filter it through the Fe function, which is able to analyze it much better than Ti.

On 2002-03-06 07:26, Stonewall Patton wrote:

Rec.arts.marching.drumpcorps??? The one place in the world where Vince blows a gasket is on rec.arts.marching.drumcorps??? HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA! And I love the way that "drumpcorps" here is filed under "arts" to take its rightful place alongside Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Monet, and Picasso. But of all the places on God's green earth, if anybody ever wants to see Vince Lamb really, REALLY blow his top, then a virtual journey to rec.arts.marching.drumcorps is necessary! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's a matter, Vince? :evil: Can't keep your cadence, huh? :razz: :razz: :razz:

* snicker *

Robert, how does Vince's emotional trauma surrounding drum corps figure into your nerd/geek distinction?

Perhaps, it's a fetish? :grin:

Ok, now seriously, I don't think that this really fits into a Nerd versus Geek distinction. Rather, this seems to be in issue that affects the NT temperament. The flames seem to be more of an xNTP type flame, which is very logical and cutting. Looks like xNTJs are also subject to fierce rebuttals.

When someone makes an illogical and seemingly ignorant statement, the NT has an urge to reply to this ignorance. As an INTP, there is NOTHING that makes me more angry than ignorance. And it is not ignorance, per se, as it can be cured. But sometimes, people seem to have an aversion to knowledge. When an NT encounters a person who steps all over what they consider to be a truth (especially INTPs), they will have an overwhelming needto instill knowledge into this person. If the person continues with his ignorant messages, then the NT will become angry. As an INTP, I would have to warn you to never spend time in Adequacy.org. That is a place of pure ignorance. I've been accidently been summoned there three times. Two of those times were anti-Linux articles. Another one was an MBTI article that put INFPs at the very top, and INTPs at the very bottom of society. It was not the fact that the people were anti-Linux, but the fact that they posted preconceptions about Linux that were utterly false. Same thing for MBTI. Whoever wrote these posts had no understanding of any of these topics. But it gets worse. After I reply to them, they refuse to be educated. That's when I get angry. The same thing happened when I used to visit newsgroups. Accordingly, I begin to flame these people with an intensity no one on this site has EVER seen from me.

So I totally understand where Vince Lamb is coming from. Although the topic of "drum corps" might seem funny, the issue here is that someone made a statement that was seemingly extremely illogical and extremely ignorant. Vince did what he had to do.

Each temperament has something that they just cannot stand. For the NTs, which is the knowledge-seeking temperament, it is ignorance. Our job is to destroy ignorance, and build knowledge. So when someone decides to declare a jihad against "using your head", we cannot help but teach these people a lesson. When we see messages of St. Augustine saying that "I no longer dream of the stars", and states explicitly that he chooses ignorance over knowledge, we cannot help but feel deeply saddened by this. Knowledge is light, and ignorance is darkness. Accordingly, the Age of Enlightenment was an NT revolution in thought. Like I said, nothing makes me more angry than someone who refuses to gain knowledge, and continues to bathe in their sea of ignorance. To me, that is inhuman.

This goes beyond "nerd versus geek". This emcompasses both nerds and geeks. We are on a lifetime mission to slash and burn the weeds of ignorance, and to plant the trees of knowledge.

I just watched A Beautiful Mind a couple of nights ago. John Nash strikes me as an extreme example of an INTP. Would those of you who have seen the film agree?

One generational-type observation. There was a point near the end of the film that covered a period where Nash appeared to be aging through the late 50's into the 1960's. There's a scene where he's walking along in kind of a "schizophrenic shuffle," and the student behind him (60's Boomer hippies) are mocking him.

It's not until the fall of 1978 when a student (Joneser/Xer cusper) approaches Nash in the library and engages him about mathematical theory.

I wonder if that's a coincidence.

Great movie, by the way. :smile:

Kiff

On 2002-03-06 11:08, madscientist wrote:

I would then suspect that INFPs, on the other hand, covertly use their inferior Te to justify beauty. But can objective truth be applied to emotional beauty?

Very interesting. As I envision it, an INFP is engaged in a constant search for beauty in every facet of human existence, often finding it in the unlikeliest of places. Having found beauty in a given thing, the INFP then looks for a universal application of that beauty such that it applies to all people. If the beauty applies universally, then it qualifies as truth. The INFP then exhibits that truth in an artistic way, and often shocks people in the process.

The point is that the INFP is exposing a truth which applies to all of us, but which people generally do not like to think about or perhaps even regard as distateful. But the "distasteful" element of truth is an integral part of something we generally consider beautiful. The INFP is trying to convince us that we have been misled and that this truth cannot possibly be distasteful because it is part and parcel of something so beautiful. INFPs however meet with mixed success. Witness that stuff Marc posted recently. There may be truth in it, but beauty is obviously in the eye of the beholder.

Where the INFP is engaged in a constant search for beauty in every facet of human existence, the INTP is engaged in a constant search for truth in same, often finding it in the unlikeliest of places. Having found truth in a given thing, the INTP then looks for the beauty in it. He then attempts to display the beauty in a given truth just as the INFP attempts to display the truth in a given beauty. And again, as beauty is always in the eye of the beholder, he does not always succeed.

So, in the end, when you merge the "tastes" of an INFP with the "tastes" of an INTP, you get an overlap of beautiful things containing truth and truthful things containing beauty, respectively. We might even conclude that the area of overlap contains all things which are universally held to be both truthful and beautiful by all people.

However there is no overlap around the edges. The INFP's edge contains beauty in which the INTP does not see truth. The INTP's edge contains truth in which the INFP does not see beauty. Poetry will typically be found in the INFP's edge. And crudity, for lack of a better word, will typically be found in the INTP's edge. The INTP does not appreciate poetry because he has never found the prerequisite truth in it without which beauty is irrelevant to him. The INFP does not appreciate crudity (again, for lack of a better word, and this is not a good one) because she has never found the prerequisite beauty in it without which truth is irrelevant to her. The challenge is for each to show the other what he/she is not seeing.

But when it comes to poetry, my mind shuts off. For a one page poem, I usually have to read it about 10 times to get an understanding it. If the poem is more than a few pages long, then just forget about it.

Hahahhah! Exactly. The only sort of poetry I like is the Robert Service variety. And, let's face it, Robert Service is not exactly what an INFP like Susan would appreciate. The explanation is perhaps that truth precedes beauty with Robert Service. And this differs from typical poetry wherein beauty precedes truth. Keep your friggin' Grecian Urn! Give me Dan McGrew! Short of that, I'll take the Man from Nantucket!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-03-06 12:44 ]</font>

On 2002-03-06 12:13, Kiff '61 wrote:
I just watched A Beautiful Mind a couple of nights ago. John Nash strikes me as an extreme example of an INTP. Would those of you who have seen the film agree?

One generational-type observation. There was a point near the end of the film that covered a period where Nash appeared to be aging through the late 50's into the 1960's. There's a scene where he's walking along in kind of a "schizophrenic shuffle," and the student behind him (60's Boomer hippies) are mocking him.

It's not until the fall of 1978 when a student (Joneser/Xer cusper) approaches Nash in the library and engages him about mathematical theory.

I wonder if that's a coincidence.

Great movie, by the way. :smile:

Kiff

I do plan on seeing it, but only after paying my money for overdue videos from Blockbuster.