<center>Songs of a Sourdough
To be a bony feed Sourdough
You must, by Yukon Law,
Have killed a moose,
And robbed a sluice,
AND BUNKED UP WITH A SQUAW...
Alas! Sourdough I'll never be.
Oh, sad is my excuse;
My shooting's so damn bad, you see...
I've never killed a moose.

Unpublished Verse
Then again I've often writ
What I deemed was decent stuff;
Yet fiddled round with it,
Couldn't polish it enough.
Couldn't shape it to my mind.
Till I chucked it with a groan . . .
So it is, I often find,
Better to let well alone.

</center>

Wow! I love this guy!! :grin:

I think one repetitive mistake of mine is mistaking things that are "elegant" or "beautiful" for things that are true. However nature tends to work frugally and flows the path of least resistance, and many times resembles a hologram or fractal (ie., why "meaning" of any kind can exist). Thus very often the things that are beautiful (ie., holographic and self similar, evocative of relationship to the whole) ARE true.

On 2002-03-06 13:08, jcarson71 wrote:
I think one repetitive mistake of mine is mistaking things that are "elegant" or "beautiful" for things that are true. However nature tends to work frugally and flows the path of least resistance, and many times resembles a hologram or fractal (ie., why "meaning" of any kind can exist). Thus very often the things that are beautiful (ie., holographic and self similar, evocative of relationship to the whole) ARE true.

Gotta love recursion! :smile:

On 2002-03-06 12:59, madscientist wrote:

<center>Songs of a Sourdough
To be a bony feed Sourdough
You must, by Yukon Law,
Have killed a moose,
And robbed a sluice,
AND BUNKED UP WITH A SQUAW...
Alas! Sourdough I'll never be.
Oh, sad is my excuse;
My shooting's so damn bad, you see...
I've never killed a moose.

Unpublished Verse
Then again I've often writ
What I deemed was decent stuff;
Yet fiddled round with it,
Couldn't polish it enough.
Couldn't shape it to my mind.
Till I chucked it with a groan . . .
So it is, I often find,
Better to let well alone.

</center>

Wow! I love this guy!! :grin:

Way to go, Robert! The truth is, you know you want that squaw. And, on second thought, it's a beautiful thing!


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-03-06 13:13 ]</font>

On 2002-03-06 12:41, Stonewall Patton wrote:
The INTP does not appreciate poetry because he has never found the prerequisite truth in it without which beauty is irrelevant to him. .

Mr. Reed:But when it comes to poetry, my mind shuts off. For a one page poem, I usually have to read it about 10 times to get an understanding it. If the poem is more than a few pages long, then just forget about it.

Hahahhah! Exactly. The only sort of poetry I like is the Robert Service variety. And, let's face it, Robert Service is not exactly what an INFP like Susan would appreciate. The explanation is perhaps that truth precedes beauty with Robert Service. And this differs from typical poetry wherein beauty precedes truth. Keep your friggin' Grecian Urn! Give me Dan McGrew! Short of that, I'll take the Man from Nantucket!

I've always loved poetry. But, in grade school we were taught the "system" of poetry and had to recite a lot of it as well as read it.

One had to learn about meter and rhyme and aesthics (watered down Burke {On the Sublime}and Hazlitt) so poetry was presented as a way of knowledge and beauty. But, then we had very little television in those far off days and were much more a culture of the printed page and the radio. HTH

Fascinating analysis of the truth/beauty relationship in the INTP and INFP temperaments. It seems the two types have much in common, which is why they often get along so well. It reminds me of linked rings, with the conjoined area containing those things that both groups find beautiful and/or truthful. You guys have already said everything I could think of--and more.

It might be interesting to see what kinds of things people on this board (especially the INFPs and INTPs, who overrun this place anyway) find beautiful. Don't be shy, as INFPs in particular often find beauty (truth) in things most people would find ugly or distasteful, and may feel too shy to admit to it in public. Yet there is really no shame in finding "ugly" things beautiful. Shame is an artificial construct that tells us what we "ought" to find beauty in. But beauty, as they say, is in the eye of the beholder!

For example, I find beauty in certain "distasteful" things, but am hard pressed to explain why, other than that these things represent some fundamental truths of either nature or the universe that have been misunderstood or ignored in some undeserved way. An example might be finding beauty in the female menstrual cycle. While in most cultures seen as distasteful, "gross," evil, or merely annoying, the menstrual cycle is also an embodiment of fundamental Truths of nature: woman's connectedness with the natural world, the mathematical precision of its cycles, as they occur in rhythm with other cyclical things on earth and the Universe, and most of all, its indication of a woman's power to create new life.

As for crudity (I prefer this to crudeness myself, Stonewall), you're right--as an INFP I do not see much beauty in such things as farting, burping, dirty jokes or the like. I often see *humor* in these things, however, but that's not the same as beauty. More often, it just bores me. But I can understand why at the outer edge of INTP-ness, the "beauty" seen there might be derived from the blunt, animalistic honesty inherent in crude things.

The mission of the INFP is to bring to light and possibly, eventual acceptance, of things that have been kept under wraps, in the dark, to break old taboos. This is accomlished through their art. That's why so much art (I am referring here to any artistic endeavor, such as music, film, writing, or poetry as well as visual art) is so disturbing, and even possibly "ugly" to many. Art does not have to beautiful in the same sense we commonly define beauty, but *must* tell the truth, whatever that truth may be.

I can also well understand why an INTP, for example, may find beauty in the precision of a mathematical formula or a long list of computer code. I can *certainly* understand why JCarson considers fractals beautiful. Fractals have the cold, icy beauty of precision and mind-bogglingly complex structures, and as such contain the Truth of the infiniteness of the universe.

No, I haven't been smoking dope. I'm just a poetic INFP who uses her inferior T a lot, dammit.

And Stonewall, "crudity" is a perfectly fine (if not beautiful!) word.

Suffering is another unbeautiful thing that paradoxically has its own inherent beauty. This does not mean I wish people to suffer or be in pain of any kind; I do not.

However, suffering contains a certain nobility and humility that connects all humanity and reminds us that we are not far removed from our mammalian origins. A person in great pain or defeat is a difficult sight to behold, for sure, but it's a reminder that we are less than God, and have a long way to go toward any semblance of perfection. There's a tragic sort of beauty at work here. Traditional Christianity (especially Catholicism), for all its shortcomings, recognizes the beauty in suffering--Jesus suffered horribly on the cross and throughout his life, and yet brought salvation and joy through his suffering. Sinners are cleansed through the blood of Christ. Mary's endless tears bring comfort and relief to those who seek her guidance and compassion.

This, of course, does not mean we should go around being martyrs, seeking punishment--or become devout Catholics! It does mean that we can look deeper into human suffering--whether physical, spiritual, or emotional--and listen to what it is telling us about ourselves.

Suffering in animals or small children and infants, however, I find no beauty in. Watching an animal or child in pain is just plain upsetting. They can learn nothing from it; they are completely at the mercy of a force they cannot understand or gain insight from. There is only beauty in suffering where there can be potential knowledge gleaned from it.

Do I make any sense?

On 2002-03-06 19:39, Susan Brombacher wrote:
Suffering is another unbeautiful thing that paradoxically has its own inherent beauty. This does not mean I wish people to suffer or be in pain of any kind; I do not.

However, suffering contains a certain nobility and humility that connects all humanity and reminds us that we are not far removed from our mammalian origins. A person in great pain or defeat is a difficult sight to behold, for sure, but it's a reminder that we are less than God, and have a long way to go toward any semblance of perfection. There's a tragic sort of beauty at work here. Traditional Christianity (especially Catholicism), for all its shortcomings, recognizes the beauty in suffering--Jesus suffered horribly on the cross and throughout his life, and yet brought salvation and joy through his suffering. Sinners are cleansed through the blood of Christ. Mary's endless tears bring comfort and relief to those who seek her guidance and compassion.

This, of course, does not mean we should go around being martyrs, seeking punishment--or become devout Catholics! It does mean that we can look deeper into human suffering--whether physical, spiritual, or emotional--and listen to what it is telling us about ourselves.

Suffering in animals or small children and infants, however, I find no beauty in. Watching an animal or child in pain is just plain upsetting. They can learn nothing from it; they are completely at the mercy of a force they cannot understand or gain insight from. There is only beauty in suffering where there can be potential knowledge gleaned from it.

Do I make any sense?

In Thomas Mann's "The Magic Mountain", the main character Hans Castorp sees dying, suffering people in a TB sanatorium as the holiest of people.

The suffering of children or animals goes back to the old question of evil: why do earthquakes happen and why are there diseases, etc etc etc. And for the religious, the answer is usually "God's mysterious will" to explain His/Her inaction against non-agent evil.

The purpose of suffering - even if it involves children or animals who cannot themselves benefit from it - is to improve you, the observer. If you are not moved to action by the suffering, then indeed their suffering has no purpose. You provide the purpose for their pain, which therefore takes on a metaphysical dimension.

<center><big>Third Turning</big></center>

<big>SJs</big>: The SJs are split into two camps. The xSTJs tend to enforce a
moral orthodoxy on society, while the xSFJs tend to fight for the new values
regime.

ESTJ

Hero: In the 3T, the child Hero grows up in an area of public disintegration.
Raised with protection, the ESTJ finds new purpose in becoming the pillar of the
community. This ESTJ eventually develops a need to clean up a world that older
people seems to have damaged. The ESTJ will adopt whatever set of values their
parents possess.

Nomad: This type tends to have a sharp-eyed realism. This contributes to a
pragmatic conservatism while engaging in an individualist effort to amass wealth
for himself.

Prophet: In midlife, this type tends to enforce a moral orthodoxy on the public,
and tries to bring religion to public life to rebuild the order that wasted away
in the 2T. However, they remain very individualistic, and tend to mix their
moral goals with a tendency to amass personal wealth for himself.

Artist: The Artist type behaves a lot like their Prophet counterparts. However,
they are more pluralistic, and more tolerant of social diversity.

ESFJ

Hero: The ESFJ redevelops community among her peers, and will participate in
social events. She will also become a pillar of the community, and will be very
active. The ESFJ will rebuild social conventions. She will develop a trust of
her parent's values, whatever they are.

Nomad: For the 3T, the ESFJ Nomad tends to have many friends, and tends to have
a lot of support from her peers. Still retaining her cynical realism, she is
able to build social connections, and help solve the problems of her own
alienation.

Prophet: The midlife ESFJ wants to rebuild a civic order. She will either
follow a moral orthodoxy, or will follow the unorthodox side of the culture
wars, depending on which side she believes will rebuild the harmony she
remembers from childhood.

Artist: This ESFJ tends to be liberal. For her, social harmony means accepting
diversity, and embracing centrifugal social forces. She tends to act young, and
seems to have a certain charm, and seems very nice.

ISTJ

Hero: This type tends to develop a sense of duty early in life, wanting to clean
up the world that older generations have messed up. They develop a reputation
of being good, and very dependable.

Nomad: This type develops a new set of values for himself. These values tend to
value liberty, and tend to be very individualistic. However, they do mix this
with a moral orthodoxy. This type tends to become very frugal, and also works
early to build a stable family life. These Nomads tend to do battle against
what they consider to be socially wrong or socially unacceptable.

Prophet: As a Prophet, this type tends to resember the ESTJs. However, the
ISTJs are more individualistic and more frugal. Like the Nomads, they are also
intent on rebuilding the institution of the family.

Artist: While more tolerant than their peers, they are very individualistic and
very economic. They do not place as much of a value on family than the other
ISTJs.

ISFJ

Hero: The ISFJ child develops a sense of duty, and a wanting to serve society,
and cleaning it up, just like the other SJs. She develops a strong set of
morals early, and rarely breaks them.

Nomad: The Nomad tends to build a new family life early, and works to protect
the family from the turmoil of the outer world. This Nomad becomes frugal, and
enforces a traditional set of values. While living in a more alienated world,
she yearns for community.

Prophet: The Prophet ISFJ is normally a church-goer, as she infuses spirituality
in order to have a sense of security in an insecure world.

Artist: The ISFJ has a strong set of values, but is still liberal. She doesn't
yearn for community like the younger ones, and works to protect society from
disaster.

<big>SPs</big>: For the 3T, the SPs engage in a frenetic pleasure and thrill
seeking as if there is no tomorrow. Where the SJs resemble the ants, the SPs
resemble the grasshopper.

ESTP

Hero: The child Hero emulates the elder Nomads early on, engaging in criminal
activities. But eventually, this type develops a civic sense. This type helps
to relegitimize many activities that were looked down upon when the elder Nomads
did them. Eventually, this type will group with his generation in an effort to
use action to rebuild a new order.

Nomad: This type has a very sharp-eyes realism. They believe in liberty. While
this type has a reputation for being criminals, they eventually clean up their
act as time goes on. They have a penchant for action. They continue to push
the culture to new limits, while seeking thrilling experiences. As the 3T nears
its end, this type begins to slow down.

Prophet: The Prophet SP would do good in politics, using his charisma to win
elections, and using his realism to keep the order from going too haywire. With
his charisma, he keeps a high morale among the populace.

Artist: See the Prophet SP, but without the same divisiveness.

ESFP

Hero: Very friendly, and very, very optimistic. This type has a penchant for
action, but is also able to easily group for collegial purpose. As the 3T goes
on, this type moves the culture from darkness and cynicism to happiness and
simplicity. As the 3T nears its end, they are joined by the ESFJs in building a
grassroots community. They rebuild a social sphere.

Nomad: More cynical, but is still able to develop a sense of optimism. Very
realistic. This type tends to party, and they party hard, like there is no
tomorrow. They are usually the life of the party. As the 3T nears its end they
slow down.

Prophet: The prophet ESFP is very powerful culturally. They are optimistic, and
tend to have a penchant for action, or rather, performance. They tend to have
an intense love for children. As the 3T nears its end, they help redirect the
culture for social causes, as they feel a new need for altruistic causes as
they are on the verge of elderhood.

Artist: This type is very friendly, very optimistic about their lives. However,
they sense that society is moving towards disharmony, and try to keep society
from entering the territory that they fear will lead to great danger.

ISTP

Hero: The ISTP have a strong logical core, and realizes early on that there is
something wrong with the civic order. They tend to agree with the values
regime, and tend to blend in with the culture. However, they develop a need to
end their alienation, and begin to regroup for political purpose. They are very
aware of societal issues.

Nomad: The ISTP Nomad tends to be very individualist, and believes very strongly
in liberty. Because of their realism, they are seemingly indestructible, and
always find a way to make it. As the 3T nears its end, the ISTP Nomad will feel
a new responsibility to guard the youth against the dangers of the future.

Prophet: This type still defines "cool". They are able to identify with the
youth culture, and have a lot of influence on the youth. They tend to have a
realistic idealism.

Artist: This type is cool. They accept diversity, and can blend in with the
youth culture better than the other Artists. However, being Artists, they tend
to push society away from dangers.

ISFP

Hero: Early on, this type bonds with the culture of the 3T. Realizing the
social turmoil, she will attempt to bring niceness to a world that is seemingly
dark. As the 3T goes on, they, with the ESFPs, gain control over the youth
culture. They will join together with the Sensing Feelers so create a
grassroots community.

Nomad: This type is still deep in cynicism, with the new meaness of the 3T.
This type develops a realism, and thus thrives. This type yearns for community,
and is very helpful to the Heroes in organizing it. Like their ISTP
counterparts, they feel a need to protect the youth from the future.

Prophet: This type tends to enjoy the 3T at first, but as time goes on, their
spirituality begins to mature. With this, they begin to build ideologies, and
they very likely have a very liberal bent. As the 3T begins to end, they are
one of the first types to begin to dabble in elderhood. As they begin to enter
into deep midlife, they have a sudden need to cultivate principle, and return to
their altruistic and spiritual roots. This graying former flower child will be
determined to meed to confrontation with history head on, and they sense that it
is coming.

Artist: This type is a lot like the Prophets, but with a less spiritual and a
more fun nature. However, where the Prophet ISFP prepares to meet history head
on, the Artist, who knows what the future holds, is adamant about not going that
way.

<big>NFs</big>: During the 3T, this type at first enjoys the new liberating
freedoms and maintains a detachment from political issues. But as social
problems mount, they feel that history is going to pay society back in a huge
way. So they cultivate principle, and prepare for judgement day.

ENFJ

Hero: Born in a decaying civilization, the ENFJ Hero works to spread social
harmony where it is absent. She always starts with her peers in childhood. She
will lead by rebuilding social conventions, and leading social causes that she
feels will be important to the future. As the 3T goes on, her optimism will
grow. In a darker world, she will provide the morale to start a rebirth of
community.

Nomad: The ENFJ is more cynical, but does gravitate towards community. In a
very splintery world, the ENFJ Nomad will help to rebuild community, especially
among the youth, whom she sees as the last hope for the future.

Prophet: Having grown up in an era of social harmony, the ENFJ will be adamant
about rebuilding the harmony she remembers well from her youth. A very
spiritual person, she will push the values that she thinks will build harmony.
She will likely be religious, and she is deeply rooted in her values. As she
starts to gray, she will show an impatience to reunify the nation, and to lead
society towards a great transformation. She will try
to build morale in a society where it is almost absent.

Artist: She radiates warmth and compassion. She seeks to build morale in the
populace where it is absent. But having experienced society's darkest moments
in her youth, she will instinctively push society away from it.

ENFP

Hero: The ENFP will enjoy the fast personal world that she is born into, but
will fret at the rising walls between individuals. While enjoying the frenetic
culture of the 3T, she will notice how deeply divided the nation and culture is,
and will see, and see possibilities in how to build a humanistic system. As
such, she will gravitate towards the mean, as does all of the other types in
this childhood Hero generation.

Nomad: The ENFP will likely party, and party hard, like there is no tomorrow.
Intuitively sensing that it won't last forever, she will attempt to experience
all of what life has to offer. But as the 3T goes on, she will feel a need to
settle down, and think of the future, and even prepare for it.

Prophet: After experiencing the spiritual rebirth of the Awakening, she will
likely live life according to the possibilities of the outer world, while trying
to put off preparation, trying to increase the distance between now and the
cliff. But unconsciously realizing that the cliff is looming closer, she will
realize the lessons that she learned from her own youth, and will feel that she
needs to make something of her values. As she reaches her late 50s, she will
think of the possibilities of old age. She will reconnect with her
spirituality. She will try to build hope for the youth, and will attempt to get
the youth to see the possibilities of a future free from the grave problems that
plague society.

Artist: Living life to the fullest, she will see possibilities everywhere to
implement small parts of her ideals in society. However, like the other
Artists, she will be resistant to pushing too far, and acting in a reckless
manner.

INFJ

Hero: It is likely that at an early age, she will join a church. Seeing
spirituality as a path to order, she will build a community according to her
spiritual beliefs. She will reject what she considers bad in the culture,
seeing it as a path to destruction. She will network with her peers, and engage
in communal activities.

Nomad: Growing up in a very broken world, she will have a very dark view of the
world. Being very cynical, she will search for ways to bring light to the world
in small ways.

Prophet: At first, the INFJ will display a detachment from the rest of society.
Seeing society fall apart before her eyes, she attempts to find hope for the
future. She will quickly act to cultivate her values, and live according to her
deep spiritual paradigm. As she turns gray, this INFJ will feel an overwhelming
need to help the world reconnect with god. She will become very uncompromising
in her values. It is now or never. God has a special mission for her. It is
now time to start acting on it. Slowly, she rises out of detachment, and
decides to focus on the outer world, spreading the word of god. She must do
battle against evil, no matter what the cost.

Artist: In elderhood, she will practice her spiritual beliefs, while providing a
nice face to the younger generations. She will attempt to steer society away
from what she knows is inevitable.

INFP

Hero: The INFP in childhood will be attracted to fantasies and romantic ideals
of the way things should be. She will likely join social movements, and
maybe even start some new ones. She will join together with other people in
achieving her visions.

Nomad: This type has the misfortune to be an INFP Nomad in a 3T. Using
Extraverted Intuition, and analyzing it with her Introverted Feeling core, she
will imagine some very dark thoughts. She might feel a need to urgently stop
this overruning darkness. She will attempt to rebuild fellowship, and will
attempt to build a network of support. Her poetry will tend to be dark.

Prophet: Having experienced the Awakening, she will enter the 3T with a severe
sense of detachment. Caught up in her thoughts, she realizes that things could
be much better than they are. She will build ideologies, and will pursue them,
but never totally. When she beings to gray, she will likely start seriously
thinking about old age. She will make mental preparations for it, but will
continue to live out the last years of youth.

Artist: Seeing society tear splinter, and drift in ways she never experienced,
she will draw more inwards. Reminiscing from her early days, she will realize
that the community will never come again.


<big>NTs</big>: The NTs are perhaps the most invisible temperament in this era,
except in the area of technological advance. Pursuing individualism to the
highest degree, they will enjoy the Indian Summer with the warm days and cool
nights. Seeing the flawd in the system, and knowing what the future will likely
bring, they will retreat to the world of study, and build solutions.

ENTJ

Hero: Seeing the disorganization of society, the ENTJ will try to find ways to
reorganize it. The ENTJ will want to organize his peers to bring order to a
chaotic world. Their early successes will being to build a sense of hubris.

Nomad: Not able to organize his own peers, he will become a leader for younger
people to follow. He will start to see in youth a means to an end.

Prophet: Having developed his Feeling side more than the other generations, this
ENTJ will want to organize society and push it towards a certain direction, but
will be blocked by the apathy of the rest of society. Realizing that society is
headed towards a waterfall, he reexamines what values he wants to implant.

Artist: Still with a knack for organization, the ENTJ will likely make bosses in
the corporations and in government. He battles against the inertia of the
institutions, and might even give up on trying to implement change.

ENTP

Hero: Living in the moment, but thinking about the future, the ENTP will imagine
up possibilities for the new secular order. When he has ideas, he will
communicate them to his peers. Seeing the problems of society, he will think of
solutions, and even try to get his peers to implement it.

Nomad: The ENTP will live very individually in this society. Thinking of
possibilities in the world, the ENTP is likely to aspire to become an
entrepreneur, lending his inventions to the world.

Prophet: The ENTP would do good to enter politics. Having a natural charisma,
and always thinking of possibilities, the ENTP will make a good third party
candidate for any election. The ENTP will attempt to implement solutions to the
current problems, but can just never see them through. As the ENTP begins to
gray, he will realize that the order is breaking down, and small fixes will not
help. Bigger things will need to be done. As such, the ENTP prepares and
builds his values and ideas for a total political revolution to overthrow the
corrupt order.

Artist: Generally optimistic, the ENTP will enjoy the individualism of the 3T.
He will live out his last years thinking of ideas and possibilities. He will
use the opportunities of the 3T to its fullest, and will have an easier time
than most other Artists.

INTJ

Hero: Growing up in an irrational world, the INTJ will see problems, and think
of solutions, which he will want to apply to the world. However, he will
connect with his peers, and think of plans to implement change.

Nomad: Fiercely individual and realistic, the INTJ Nomad will have very
libertarian tendencies in an era of inept government. The INTJ will live life
with a ruthless rationality. Sticking by his beliefs, he will fight to preserve
liberty wherever the corrupt government becomes too overbearing.

Prophet: Still individualist, this INTJ will do well in politics. Likely to be
fighting for third parties, he will push his political views upon society with a
strong sense of rationalism. As he preaches to the populace, he will be rooted
deeply in his values that he learned in the 2T. He will yearn for order and
drive in a complacent society. As he begins to gray, the INTJ will come to the
conclusion that the current government is not working, and cannot be reformed on
the inside.

Artist: The Artist INTJ will have the most self confidence, and the most
decisiveness of all of the other Artists. Appearing forceful, the INTJ will
fight to keep society from falling apart, and fight to protect the old order.

INTP

Hero: A thinker by nature, the child INTP will see early how things could be
improved. As time goes on, he will absorb a large amount of information from
any source possible, and reorders it in his mind, which contains a blueprint for
a new social order. He will constantly rework and rethink his ideas,
and refine them. Realizing that the order is corrupt beyond redemption, the INTP
might turn to radicalism to push his views on society.

Nomad: Very individualistic, the Nomad draws inwards in a society that he
considers hateful. Being caught up in his imaginations, he finds that living in
his mind is much better than living in the outer world. He will retreat to a
world of books (and computers). Being attracted to libertarianism, the INTP
will defend liberty, and produce a great amount of political thought that will
inspire the masses.

Prophet: Building his system since the Awakening, the INTP Prophet probably
understands more than any other type the exact problems of society, and the
exact solutions needed. The INTP will detach himself severely from the world,
and retreat to amassing knowledge, working everything he learns into a very,
very complex system of connecting ideas. He will search for incoherence and
inconsistencies in the current social system, and in every social idea he comes
across. As he begins to gray in his 50s, he will realize that the world is
headed for a waterfall. He will cultivate principle, and sink even deeper into
his introversion to get more ideas in, before emerging near the end of 3T, with
a wisdom beyond comprehension. His idea for a new social system will be rooted
in the values of the Awakening, and will be radical.

Artist: A bookworm, the INTP Artist will search for ways to improve the ailing
order. Retreating from society, he will attempt to protect the old order that
he saw built in his youth for as long as possible, but knows that it will have
to eventually give.

The next, and final installment will be about the Crisis.

On 2002-03-06 18:03, Susan Brombacher wrote:

It might be interesting to see what kinds of things people on this board (especially the INFPs and INTPs, who overrun this place anyway) find beautiful.

INTP...How beautiful are: Mozart's music, Monet paintings, Pinot Noir, Chocolate Brownies, Silk shirting.


The Sublime is: a Wagner opera, a Munch painting, Anejo Rum, 3 alarm chili, getting caught in a tornado.


Ugly: polka music, Pop Art, geraniums, Tripe ala Caen, fingernails on a chalk board.

HTH

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-03-06 21:09 ]</font>

<center><big>Fourth Turning</big></center>

<big>SJs</big>: The Guardian temperament will do exactly that: guard society.
The public disorder can seem fearful, but the Guardian will respond to the storm
by fortifying the community, and enforing new manners and standards, and protect
society from danger.

ESTJ

Artist: Born in a period of terrifying darkness, the Artist is locked down by no
nonsense adults. The ESTJ quickly learns the rules, and is careful not to
question the rules, or break them.

Hero: Knowing that there is a job to be done, the Hero ESTJ organizes to does
public deeds. They decide which values to keep. After the decisions have been
made, the do not accept deviation from it. They follow the commands of the Gray
Champion, without question.

Nomad: As the Crisis hits, the ESTJ is quickly forced to fortify the community,
and enforce discipline. They manage society with a ruthless pragmatism, and
keep the economy going very well.

Prophet: In old age, the ESTJ will enforce cultural conservatism on the public,
but will have to compromise on his public conservatism. If he is still fighting
for the old regime, he will pay...dearly. They will become the communal
patriarchs.

ESFJ

Artist: Growing up in an era of fortifying community, the ESFJ finds more
harmony. However, she learns not to question the rules, and not to try them.

Hero: Seeing the harmony waste away in public life, she will fight to keep it in
her community. Very socially active, she will implant and enforce the new
social conventions, building harmony in the community. She will not appreciate
people who go against the newly decided values, seeing it as a path to social
disharmony.

Nomad: With the ESTJ, they will fortify the community, and will enforce the new
social norms with a ruthless pragmatism. Relying on her social net, she will
guard society's most treasured assets, and will bring tradition back into family
and community life.

Prophet: Very likely being part of a church, the Prophet ESFJ will have control
over the community. Churches will again become an arena for the works. At this
state, the ESFJ Prophets are the matriarchs of the community. She will bring
back holidays, and will expect everyone to observe and celebrate them. In doing
so, she will resacralize the national institutions.

ISTJ

Artist: Very much like the ESTJs. They learn not the question anything, and do
as they are told, while hoping that they can sacrifice themselves, and prove
themselves to be "real men".

Hero: Entering young adulthood, the ISTJ will gain a sense of duty. Now is the
time to clean up the world, and build order. Very patriotic and very
nationalistic, they will not hesitate to die for their nation. They will be
very intolerant of the dissenters.

Nomad: Feeling a sense of duty to protect society, the ISTJ will put himself
right in danger's way to protect the community. At last finding a purpose in
life, the ISTJ Nomads will push for very strict discipline. They will severely
punish anything that they consider to be anti-social, and is likely to engage in
a nativist backlash, as they work to protect their way of life.

Artist: While more tolerant than their peers, they are very individualistic and
very economic. They do not place as much of a value on family than the other
ISTJs.

ISFJ

Artist: Experiencing the trauma of the Crisis, the ISFJ child will find needed
protection from her parents. Raised in a fortified social landscape, the ISFJ
will feel safe, secure, and will trust adults who are sacrificing so much on her
behalf. She will do small things to help, but will dreams of serving the
institutions.

Hero: Knowing that the survival of her way of life is at stake, she will take a
more extraverted stance, and serve while protecting the community. She will
help enforce the new social conventions and rebuild community.

Nomad: In midlife, the ISFJ will know that she is an a moment of historical
significance. She will guard the social institutions and the norm. She will
enforce social conventions, and fortify the community to protect it from the
storm. She will heavily protect the home, building a force field to help
protect it.

Prophet: In old age, the ISFJ is likely to spend much of her time at church
praying. She will help resacralize the community, and enforce the celebration
of holidays.

<big>SPs</big>: This temperament will throw themselves on the line to protect
the community from the dangers. Graceful in action and optimistic about the
future, they know that history is happening right now, and that the spotlight is
on them. They make very quick decisions without looking back.

ESTP

Artist: With the community in lockdown mode, the ESTP cannot find the adventure
that he needs. The ESTP occasionally gets in trouble, but never does anything
horrendous. The ESTP looks forward to adulthood, in which he can become a "man"
and engage in action for the sake of society.

Hero: As the Crisis erupts, The ESTP quickly sheds anything extraneous to the
survival needs of the community. Graceful in action, the ESTP hero will band
together, and help lead society towards the desired goal. With a strong
penchant for action, the ESTP will make the most of any situation, giving it
everything he has to bring on the desired change. This ESTP could very well
have an anarchistic bent. The Hero ESTP relegitimizes many of the "destructive"
tendencies of the 3T, and sheds the cynicism of the 3T, and the bad cultural
concepts.

Nomad: The ESTP is likely to become a leader, with his charismatic ways. He has
a vision, and will work to implement it, using his realistic pragmatism. This
ESTP has a disregard for ideals, and only cares if a plan will achieve the
desired affect, and if it is worth it. The ESTP can become the demagogue that
S&H warns about.

Prophet: The Prophet ESTP is more rooted in ideals than the younger ESTPs. This
is a likely type to become a Gray Champion, just as FDR did. They rule with the
right mix of realism and idealism, preventing society from going the way his
more destructive and Intuitive peers are pushing it.

ESFP

Artist: As a child, the ESFP will feel locked in, but will get used to it. She
will learn now to break the rules. She tries to have fun, but because of the
fortification of society, she turns more inwards.

Hero: As a Hero, the ESFP will spread her unending optimism, helping to raise
the morale of her peers. She will share the culture with the ESFPs, spreading
happiness, and bringing a little sunshine to a society in frigid darkness. She
will help with the social movements, spreading the ideology among her peers.
She will participate in social activism, and will largely decide among her peers
the new societal conventions.

Nomad: As the 4T begins, they end their partying, and shed their lives of
anything excessive. They will act much like the ESFPs, and will root and build
a family life, with an intense and smothering care for their children.

Prophet: The confrontation with history finally here, the elder ESFP will return
to her ideological roots. As the ESFP is the "performer" type, she will help
resacralize the national community, building new society myths, and implanting a
mysticism to the national culture. A believer in altruistic causes, the ESFP
will sacrifice themselves for the sake of the future of the nation.

ISTP

Artist: With a penchant for action, the ISTP will find that the world is
fortified. Naturally inclined to test the fortification, the ISTP quickly
learns to accept the new order. Like the ESTPs, they await the day in which
they are old enough to partake in the action.

Hero: With a penchant for action, this type applies his mechanical skills to
help a society shoulder a 4T. With dominant Introverted Thinking and the
auxiliary Extraverted Sensing, they are optimistic realists. They will push
society towards a certain ideal that they agree with, and can be drawn to
anarchism. They have a need to solve the social issues once and for all.

Nomad: The ultimate realist, the ISTP works on the gears of the system, while
knowing that he will not get anything out of it. With a disregard for the
ideals, the ISTP will work towards the preservation of liberty. They will put
themselves on the line to guard the interests of the youth. With an irreverance
for authority, the ISTP will not hesitate to tell anyone the sound bite, using
colorful language. They will do the dirty deeds that no one else would dare do
if it would benefit society.

Prophet: A realist, the Prophet ISTP will guide society towards the ideal. With
still a grip on the youth culture, the ISTP will have no problem appealing to
the culture for public purpose.

ISFP

Artist: Under intense protection, the ISFP will not test the limits of
fortification. Seeing the strife, the ISFP will seek to soften the world as she
grows up.

Hero: The ISFP still has a firm grip on the youth culture which she will use as
motivational propaganda, while chafing at the disregard society now has for art.
She will likely produce music and create art. She will argue for humane
solutions to problems. She will keep the niceness in the community.

Nomad: Much more pragmatic than the other ISFPs, the Nomad will use the culture
as propaganda. They will help build community, but will make sure that the
other types do not go overboard in their fortification of the community. She
will settle down and form a family.

Prophet: Deeply spiritual, the ISFP will resacralize the national stories, and
bring a spiritual dimension to the struggles of society. Building new myths,
she will become the matriarch of the national culture. The ISFP in elderhood
will resemble a shaman.

<big>NFs</big>: The time of trial is finally here. They burst out on the
national scene, spreading their ideal with passion, trying to steer society
towards a transformation. Engaging in prayer and meditation, this temperament
will encounter the finale, make sure that the uncompromising values are pushed
through.

ENFJ

Artist: Born in a time of fortification, the ENFJ child will use her creativity
to build social harmony among her peers.

Hero: With the historic process accelerating, the ENFJ will lead the social
movements among her peers. Rebuilding social convention, she will
charismatically lead society towards the ideals. She will build morale among
her peers, and use her Extraverted Feeling function to bring out the best among
her peers.

Nomad: The ENFJ will lead new youth movements, and will make sure that the youth
get what they want and need. Crusading on the behalf of the youth, she gains a
dedicated group of followers.

Prophet: This breed of ENFJ will harbor a lot of wisdom. She always says the
right thing at the right time, and people will follow her off a cliff. She will
resacralize the national institutions, and help with morale and interpersonal
relationships among the masses. The ENFJ will lead society towards a
transformation, and will build social energy among the masses. The ENFJ has
ability to keep the morale high in the darkest hours and the most dangerous
times. She will reunify the nation, while obtaining wisdom from prayer and
meditation. She will infuse religion back into national life.

ENFP

Artist: Always looking for possibilities, the ENFP will not find them in a
fortified social environment. As such, she will retreat to her fantasies, and
find creative ways to have fun.

Hero: When the Crisis hits, the ENFP will focus her energies on implementing her
ideals on society. She will create motivational propaganda for the Crisis, and
will provide a human element to the struggles of society during these trying
times. She will do her part as a Hero, and provide a bastion of optimism, which
will help with the morale of society.

Nomad: As a Nomad, the ENFP will be realistic. In this time, however, she will
settle down and batten down the hatches for the storm. She will make creative
ways to provide a humanistic element towards the community.

Prophet: Building hope for the youth, she will lead the ideological battles.
Where she had been mostly idealistic in the past, she now applies her inner fire
to the outer world, implanting the values regime into the institutions. Very
altruistic in nature, she will implant a New Deal that benefits the youth, but
not herself.

INFJ

Artist: Blocked by the social environment, the INFJ withdraws from the outer
world, and emerges in a world of fantasy. Very credulous, they fantasize about
the time that they can contribute to the social effort. But for now, they will
help in small ways.

Hero: Coming of Age, the INFJ will frequent religious activities, and make it
part of the social conventions. While doing her part, she will help others to
better themselves.

Nomad: This type will likely be a leader in the community and in the church.
She will build morale in the youth with her spiritualism, and will help guard
the community.

Prophet: Godlike. She appeals to the consciousness of the society with her
Zen-like wisdom. Speaking the words of god itself, she will motivate the youth
to do whatever she wants them to do. She will spend a lot of time meditating
and praying, searching for self-perfection, and will expect others, especially
her peers, to do the same. She will put god back in the classroom. Her
speeches will be sermons. She will put the lid on the huge public questions,
and will tackle no-compromise issues head on, settling them, once and for all.
She will work towards the ideal, by any means necessary.

INFP

Artist: The child INFP will quickly learn to retreat to her inner world in the
closed social environment.

Hero: The INFP will help move society towards the ideal. They will become
active in politics and in social activism to bring about the desired change.
With a new emphasis on action, the INFPs will push their idealism on the outer
world, trying to answer the big public questions.

Nomad: As a Nomad, the INFP will root herself. She will feel a need to protect
the community from outside needs, and like the ENFJ, will fight on behalf of the
youth. This becomes a midlife crusade for her.

Prophet: Entering elderhood, the crusades of the INFP now assume an
unprecedented urgency. With the world in peril, the INFP embarks on her final
crusade to apply the ideals she cultivated in the Awakening to public life.
Feeling that the world is on the brink of destruction, the INFP will ruthlessly
push her ideals on the public. The outer-world is second only to the inner
world of the INFP. If unchecked, the INFP Prophet could overreach and cause
more harm to benefit to the world. The INFP will gain control over the
movements. Starting as grassroots movements in the 3T, they will become infused
in the institutions during the 4T.


<big>NTs</big>: After a relatively quiet 3T, the NTs burst on the 4T producing
new intellectual thought, and builing the plans, designing the technology, and
building strategy to get past the 4T. Working on the ideals from the 2T, the
NTs build the institutions with these in mind. Very pragmatic, they will push
science and rationality back into society. They will build, and apply their
solutions to the problems of society.

ENTJ

Artist: As a child, the ENTJ is boxed in. This, the ENTJ is forced to act more
like an introvert, even though he rises to leadership among his peers, emulating
the Heroes.

Hero: At an early age, the ENTJ Hero gains power. They can gain positions in
the government at an early age with their competence. Under their leadership,
they always succeed in overcoming the trials.

Nomad: Waaaarrr!!!! That basically sums up the Nomad ENTJ during the 4T. They
are leaders, able to make quick decisions, and enforce them. With strategic
planning, they are able to create very efficient plans for overcoming obstacles.
They do this in a very war-like manner, planning and bossing around like
generals. In fact, it is likely that many of the Generals will be ENTJs.

Prophet: With incredible power, the ENTJ Prophet seems to have an omnipotence
about him. Very likely a military general, they will amass the resources, and
fight the war the correct way.

ENTP

Artist: As a kid, the ENTP will try to test the bounds of the fort, but quickly
learns not to with a heavy hand. The ENTP will see possibilities, but for now,
they will stay in his mind, while he helps in small ways.

Hero: The ENTP Hero can also gain power early. He has charisma, and is very
competent. While he does not organize people, he does organize ideas. The ENTP
likely has a revolutionary fervor, and is likely to be very active in political
movements. The populace listens to the political thought of an ENTP. The ENTP
is likely to be drawn to radical ideas. The ENTP also works on developing
technology which will be useful in the war effort.

Nomad: The ENTP works behind the scenes, thinking of new inventions, both
political and technological. With an intimate intuitive grasp of the outside
world, the ENTP knows exactly what needs to be build, and works feverishly
towards it. The ENTP also works in planning the Crisis Era efforts.

Prophet: The ENTP Prophet enters the public scene and preaches a radical
politics. Having a large audience, the ENTP can become a leader, spreading his
radical ideals among the populace. The ENTP comes up with plans, which he
applies to the outer world. The objective of the ENTP is to build a working
civic order, and works hard to that task.

INTJ

Artist: This INTJ retreats to his own individual world. With no room to
maneuver, the INTJ engages in fantasy, mimicing the elders.

Hero: The INTJs are still individualistic, but work collectively. The INTJ is
attracted to radical ideologies, and will work towards this end. Like the other
NTs, the INTJ can enter the public sphere early, with his competence in dealing
with worldly affairs. The INTJ will build the plans. Very achievement
oriented, he will work hard in doing scientific research, and in building new
technologies to help in the Crisis effort. The INTJ tends to have a
revolutionary spirit.

Nomad: In midlife, the INTJ will fight for liberty, and the rights of
individuals. They will build the plans for war, gather the intelligence, and
quickly come up with immediate solutions. They will simplify their outer-world
life to make room for their achievements.

Prophet: As a Prophet, the INTJ will largely take on the same role as the ENTJ,
although he won't make an as powerful leader. This INTJ will fight rationally
for political causes, and implement solutions that will become part of the new
order.

INTP

Artist: As a kid, the INTP will naturally test the limits of his fort, but will
be pushed back. The INTP this retreats to his thoughts.

Hero: Like the other NTs, the INTP can enter politics at an early age. Very
logical, the INTP has a complete solution to the problems of society. The INTPs
will bring intellectualism back to public life. Becoming more extraverted, the
INTPs will push their ideas on society. INTPs are likely to be very radical,
arguing their position with an extreme intellectualism, using a very watertight
argument. The INTP creates plans, does research, builds theories, but leaves
the implementation to others. More than any other type, the INTP is likely to
have completely thought through everything, and considered the problems of the
various social ideas.

Nomad: This breed of INTP fights on behalf of liberty, and of his political
beliefs. With a ruthless pragmatism, the INTP plans, designs, and does
research. This INTP will likely work behind the scenes, unless he is actively
engaged in activism.

Prophet: In elderhood, the INTP will seem omniscient. Seemingly having
knowledge and wisdom with no end, the INTP will emerge from his detachment, and
push his ideals on society. This INTP can seem to have a spiritual nature.
Like the INFP, however, the danger can be that this INTP considers the real
world secondary only to his imaginary one, and can to unnecessary destruction in
meeting his ideals. Believing that he speaks the ultimate truth, this INTP will
pursue his ideas with an uncompromising ruthlessness, achieving them by any
means necessary. This INTP continues to do research and to amass knowledge, and
analyze the situation until the end of his life.

Susan.

Ya don't have to be an INTP to appreciate the beauty of a fractal. I'm an INFP, a real softie in real life. I care about everybody's feelings, sometimes to a fault. Feelings are the first things I focus instinctively focus my energy on in social interactions.

On 2002-03-07 07:34, jcarson71 wrote:
Susan.

Ya don't have to be an INTP to appreciate the beauty of a fractal. I'm an INFP, a real softie in real life. I care about everybody's feelings, sometimes to a fault. Feelings are the first things I focus instinctively focus my energy on in social interactions.

INFPs, it seems, have an amazing ability to connect science with religion or spirituality. You'd be amazed at how some INFPs have connected the sciences of quantum physics, chaos theory, complexity theory, and systems thinking into the spirituality of the prior Awakening.

In fact, many of our New Age ideas come from these disciplines.

GodelEscherBach

by Hoffstadter.

New Age? Sounds a little flakey for my tastes (but hey to each their own).

Nevertheless, I have always been curious about that mysterious interface at the nexus of metaphysics, religion, and science. It's definitely something to ponder, even if it cannot withstand or be held to the rigors of reductionist logic or experimentation.

Good books on this:

The dancing wu-li masters

GodelEscherBach

Chaos-the making of a new science

The turbulent mirror

Another good book or two on this sort of thing:

A brief history of time

About time---or ANY book by Paul Davies

Bravo, Robert! Thank you for the type/turning analysis. Still trying to digest it all.

The ultimate - and highly questionable - book on spirituality and quantum physics is Frank Tipler's "The Physics of Immortality", where he postulates (and claims to have mathematical proofs for) that a future intelligence (100 billion years from now?) connected to humanity will re-create everything that could or did exist in a quest for "total information", i.e. the resurrection of the dead will occur when this intelligence - which is simply us at the end of an "omega point" a la Teilhard de Chardin - summons everything into existence.

Also, on a less titanic scale, but still fascinating, are 2 books by psychologist and physicist Danah Zohar "The Quantum Self" and "The Quantum Society".

On 2002-03-07 12:57, Neisha '67 wrote:
Bravo, Robert! Thank you for the type/turning analysis. Still trying to digest it all.

Thanks. And tell me whatever you find wrong with it.

Hey it all looks good to me! But, then I'm the person who can't figure out what type she is. Although, I have a vague recollection of someone (Stonewall?) saying something in that whold truth/beauty/poetry discussion -- which I didn't follow because poetry is really not my thing -- about INTPs liking crudity. Then I remembered that my husband likes to describe me to coworkers as "an intellectual who loves a good fart joke" and I went, AHA, could be me!

And, for the record, because you guys all know me now as a Doc Martens wearing nerd who likes fart jokes, I'm actually quite normal, attractive even, to look at! Felt compelled to say that because the composite is becoming increasingly weird!

Or wait, am I a nerd or a geek? Robert? Maybe this will help: Scully = INTJ = nerd; Mulder = INTP = geek?

On 2002-03-07 10:49, jcarson71 wrote:
GodelEscherBach

by Hoffstadter.

The only place I've heard of this before was during a discussion between two friends of a good friend of mine. All three are engineers. The friends commented that my friend was the only one who could understand GodelEscherBach. And my friend is INTP.

On 2002-03-07 18:10, Neisha '67 wrote:

Although, I have a vague recollection of someone (Stonewall?) saying something in that whold truth/beauty/poetry discussion -- which I didn't follow because poetry is really not my thing -- about INTPs liking crudity. Then I remembered that my husband likes to describe me to coworkers as "an intellectual who loves a good fart joke" and I went, AHA, could be me!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good girl! But actually I had sex in mind when I used the term "crudity." I believe that an INFP and an INTP can be equally blunt and frank about sex, but their depictions are of an entirely different quality. The INFP emphasizes the feelings, sensations, moods, etc. while the INTP emphasizes the raw visual image. The INFP finds truth in the beauty. The INTP finds beauty in the truth. However both are perhaps equally graphic despite their different orientations.

And if I confused you there, I was asserting that INTPs do not generally take to poetry (Virgil being an obvious exception). By contrast, INFPs seem to write poetry in their minds all day long. I offered Robert Service as an example of an acceptable poet to INTPs because there is nothing about Grecian urns or Xanadu or anything like that. However even Robert Service's appeal might be limited to male INTPs. I am not certain that I can picture a female xNTP such as yourself enjoying the depictions of barrooms in the Yukon filled with dirt-covered sourdoughs and overly "made up" ladies!

And, for the record, because you guys all know me now as a Doc Martens wearing nerd who likes fart jokes, I'm actually quite normal, attractive even, to look at! Felt compelled to say that because the composite is becoming increasingly weird!

Can you build some more upon this composite? You are right, this is something else! :smile:

I think all we are really talking about is that which urges men and women to break off into segregated groups at mixed parties. Ti-type men and Fi-type women probably lead the effort to segregate. Both are creative and both are impulsive and energy must be expended in order to prevent them from saying what is on their minds, so they desire to segregate such that they can finally relax.

The creative and visual nature of the Ti-type male constantly conceives of all sorts of absurd and funny associations, often very crude in character, which would only embarrass and offend the ladies. The creative (and visual?) nature of the Fi-Type female constantly conceives of all sorts of graphic and intimate associations which would only embarrass her in front of the men. So each wants to segregate so as to relax and say whatever comes to mind.

Now the funny thing here is that you, Neisha, are actually a Ti-type female. So you might even have a lot more fun if you went off with the guys since you might be more on their wavelength. But you probably end up going off with the women anyway. And I'll bet you end up giving the girls a good a laugh they would not otherwise get.

Actually, a lot of SJs of both genders think I'm odd and inappropriate. Not because of the jokes I tell, I don't actually tell crude jokes so much as laugh so hard at them I can barely keep breathing! (There's that one episode of Drew Carey where they add "sound-effects" to Drew's training video . . . but I digress.)

I don't really go to parties where the sexes segregate. What I do is surround myself with NFs and NTs, who don't have set ideas about how people are supposed to behave. Then I can relax. A lot of my close friends are female NTs and male NFs -- people who defy gender stereotypes.

Before I knew anything about the MBTI and Enneagram, I used to avoid like the plague people whom I referred to as the "should" people. Those are the folks who are always doing what they "should" and who always want you to be doing what you "should." I rarely do what I should, so I am *always* in trouble with the "should" people, a lot of the time before I even open my mouth! I now realize that the "should" people are probably all extroverted SJs and perhaps ISFJs. I am not sure about ISTJs. The ones that I know seem to be a bit more open-minded than extroverted SJs. It's hard to say. But I am sure you guys know who I am talking about!

Like Virgil says, HTH!

On 2002-03-08 12:05, Neisha '67 wrote:

Actually, a lot of SJs of both genders think I'm odd and inappropriate.

Outstanding!

The ones that I know seem to be a bit more open-minded than extroverted SJs. It's hard to say. But I am sure you guys know who I am talking about!

LOL! And where is Coach today? He is likely either passing out jockstraps or filling the water cooler now.