I can hang around some SJs...that is, as long as I stick to the basics of the conversation and largely keep my mouth shut. I am not able to do any small talk. When I try, I sound very awkward.

Keeping my mouth shut makes me far more sociable. When I do open my mouth, it is very possible that I say something that people laugh at, or find weird.

On 2002-03-08 13:27, madscientist wrote:

I can hang around some SJs...that is, as long as I stick to the basics of the conversation and largely keep my mouth shut. I am not able to do any small talk. When I try, I sound very awkward.

Keeping my mouth shut makes me far more sociable. When I do open my mouth, it is very possible that I say something that people laugh at, or find weird.

I think you have to break it down. On the one hand, you have ESFJ and ISFJ women and they are irresistably sweet. They can bring you to your knees. And also, in private, they can knock sense into you like nobody else (and this is obviously from an INTP perspective).

On the other hand, ESTJ and ISTJ men operate from an entirely different value structure and set of priorities (again, relative to INTP). The contrasts are so stark that it is not at all difficult to clash with them. It is highly advantageous to work as partners with them since your skills complement each other. But it can be trouble working under one (Marc...heheheh!).

I'm not positive but I think that you can get along well sociably with ESFJ and ISFJ men. At least I think I have been fairly good friends with some of them in the past. The same may be true with ESTJ and ISTJ women but I am less certain here. Kiff certainly seems cool though. I suspect that ESTJ and ISTJ women will value your different perspective in a way that ESTJ and ISTJ men never will. But...I am not sure.

Reading about Neisha's post about NTs and NFs reminded me of a setting dominated by iNtuitives-S F fandom. Upon thinking about it I realized that this setting tends to lack segregation by gender. Partly this may be because these people are more interested in possibilities than in "shoulds." This may also be because this is one setting in which a nonconformist-that is, someone who swims against society's current-is in the majority. This includes iNtuitives in general, and NT women and NF men if particular. And partly because these people tend to have diverse, multiple interests, which permits a lot of overlap across gender lines.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tim Walker on 2002-03-08 23:47 ]</font>

On 2002-03-08 13:27, madscientist wrote:
I can hang around some SJs...that is, as long as I stick to the basics of the conversation and largely keep my mouth shut. I am not able to do any small talk. When I try, I sound very awkward.

Keeping my mouth shut makes me far more sociable. When I do open my mouth, it is very possible that I say something that people laugh at, or find weird.

For what its worth, I am an ISTJ and I enjoy your posts (especially when you keep your paragraphs small)! :smile:

On 2002-03-08 13:56, Stonewall Patton wrote:

I'm not positive but I think that you can get along well sociably with ESFJ and ISFJ men. At least I think I have been fairly good friends with some of them in the past. The same may be true with ESTJ and ISTJ women but I am less certain here. Kiff certainly seems cool though.

Thanks. So do you, Stonewall. :smile:

I gotta say that I am a lot more chatty on this forum than I am anywhere else. Face-to-face situations tend to freeze me up a little.

I suspect that ESTJ and ISTJ women will value your different perspective in a way that ESTJ and ISTJ men never will. But...I am not sure.

I love geeks and nerds of all colors and stripes. I went to a geeky, nerdy college and all of my friends were geeks and nerds.

I'm sure I'd get along just fine with Robert and all of the other men here, including the Coach. :smile:

Being an ISTJ (and a librarian) means that I can fish all sorts of information on all sorts of topics out of my brain, and that helps in social situations.

Kiff

On 2002-03-09 15:01, Jenny Genser wrote:

For what its worth, I am an ISTJ and I enjoy your posts (especially when you keep your paragraphs small)! :smile:

Thanks. :smile: I'll try to write smaller paragraphs.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"Not to know is bad, but to refuse to know is worse." -- A Gambian Proverb

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-03-09 16:43 ]</font>

On 2002-03-08 13:56, Stonewall Patton wrote:

I think you have to break it down. On the one hand, you have ESFJ and ISFJ women and they are irresistably sweet. They can bring you to your knees. And also, in private, they can knock sense into you like nobody else (and this is obviously from an INTP perspective).

Normally, I do not know who is, and who isn't an ESFJ or ISFJ. For instance, I would not be able to tell is someone is an ESFJ or an ESFP. But I do tend to be very drawn to sweetness. In fact, that seems to be my weakness. Usually, I will try to act like I am totally unaffected by it, as I have a very strong urge to appear rational and in control.

Of course, there are those times in which a sweet and cute girl can bring out my weakness. What usually happens is that I lose control of my dominant Ti, making me kinda giddy (damn inferior Fe!!). The funny thing is that my brain is always fighting to regain its rational and detached mode. :razz:

On the other hand, ESTJ and ISTJ men operate from an entirely different value structure and set of priorities (again, relative to INTP). The contrasts are so stark that it is not at all difficult to clash with them. It is highly advantageous to work as partners with them since your skills complement each other. But it can be trouble working under one (Marc...heheheh!).

I find that I tend to get along better with ISTJs than with ESTJs. Many ESTJs seem to have an anti-nerd/geek attitude. One source of conflict, I believe, is that ESTJs tend to be very reality oriented, while INTPs tend to escape from reality.

I'm not positive but I think that you can get along well sociably with ESFJ and ISFJ men. At least I think I have been fairly good friends with some of them in the past. The same may be true with ESTJ and ISTJ women but I am less certain here. Kiff certainly seems cool though. I suspect that ESTJ and ISTJ women will value your different perspective in a way that ESTJ and ISTJ men never will. But...I am not sure.

These gender differences within a MBTI type are very fascinating. One thing I've noticed is that socialization tends to be much more visible in Sensing types than in Intuitive types.

My mother is an ESTJ, Enneagram type 3.
My father is probably a 9w8 or more likely, 8w9. Hard to tell. I have been unable to pin down his MBTI type at all, which is unusual for me.

Needless to say, I have never had a great relationship with either of my parents (especially my mother). I have always felt isolated from both of them; they always thought I was weird and lacked common sense. My mother, in particular, doesn't understand or even try to understand IN types.
According to Riso, the Type 4 "romantic" personality felt alienated from both parents during childhood. Interesting.

I am married to an ISFJ. She has those good ISFJ qualities that complement my INFP-ness.

For one thing, she cares about dotting all those i's and crossing all those t's that I leave around, so to speak, and bothers to iron my shirts which I never cared to do before marriage (why bother in academia?).

It's really an unfair lot in life for her, IMO, but she doesn't seem to mind, AS LONG AS I PAY ATTENTION to her efforts. In return, I share with her my bad puns and goofy muppet voices and crazy fantasies.

In practical matters, she is usually 3 or 4 steps ahead of me. I live a lot in my head, and so she has a way of snapping me out of it in a way that is sweet and not at all belittling, when necessary.

You are very lucky to have that, Jonathan.

To the church of the MBTI:

The Coach speaks...


Hey, fellas, have you guys forgotten we've got a game tomorrow?

Hey, Croaker, help me out here, tell em we gotta play the game tomorrow!




Sheesh, and to think all you people actually think we're in the 4T now. Pretty funny really. :smile:

On 2002-03-09 18:46, Susan Brombacher wrote:
My mother is an ESTJ, Enneagram type 3.

You actually got her tested on the MBTI or did you figure it out like her Enneagram type?

FWIW, my mom is very clearly a 7w6 (she likes the idea of being an "Entertainer"--yes, I actually told her about the Enneagram and she found it fascinating) and is ESxx, probably ESTP or ESFP (she's a teacher, so ESFP would be a good one for her).

My father is probably a 9w8 or more likely, 8w9. Hard to tell. I have been unable to pin down his MBTI type at all, which is unusual for me.

I couldn't decide between those two for my dad for quite a while, although I finally settled on 9w8. He's right on the E/S border, probably E. ESTJ or ESTP would be my bet (he was an accountant for 40 years--he'd have to be xSTx!)

As for the rest of my family--my immediately younger sister (middle child--I'm the oldest and only son) was so taken with the Enneagram that she bought "Personality Types" and typed herself. I had her typed as a 6 and she confirmed herself as a 6w7. I think she's an ENTP, but I'm not sure. My youngest sister I have tentatively typed as a 3w2 and she is probably ESFJ. I haven't talked to her about the Enneagram--she isn't the intellectual either my mom or middle sister are!

Needless to say, I have never had a great relationship with either of my parents (especially my mother). I have always felt isolated from both of them; they always thought I was weird and lacked common sense. My mother, in particular, doesn't understand or even try to understand IN types.
According to Riso, the Type 4 "romantic" personality felt alienated from both parents during childhood. Interesting.

I could see that your mom, who would be very interested in being the best and being a material success, would find you odd (my mom was very happy with my intelligence, but has long had the same worries about my impracticality--Sevens are also practical people) and your dad, who, if he indeed has 9 in his makeup, would be interested in a serene inner life, would find your turbulent inner life more than a bit foreign.

According to one of Riso's interpretations, the primary conflict in a Four is between the id and the ego, with the id stronger, resulting in introverted intuition. In an Eight, the same two parts of the mind are also in conflict, but the ego is stronger, resulting in extraverted intuition. You two are mirror images!

At least I could admire my dad's calmness and my mom's quick tongue and mind, even if I didn't identify with either of their agendas. As a result, I found my own role in the family as the "brain" and rememberer of family history. I still do. My mom calls me "Don Requerdo"--Lord of Memory! I once asked her if she remembered details of the family past. She responded "No, that's your job."

My ex-wife, on the other hand, ridiculed my memory, which never ceased to infuriate me.

On 2002-03-10 02:10, Vince Lamb '59 wrote:

On 2002-03-09 18:46, Susan Brombacher wrote:
My mother is an ESTJ, Enneagram type 3.

You actually got her tested on the MBTI or did you figure it out like her Enneagram type?

FWIW, my mom is very clearly a 7w6 (she likes the idea of being an "Entertainer"--yes, I actually told her about the Enneagram and she found it fascinating) and is ESxx, probably ESTP or ESFP (she's a teacher, so ESFP would be a good one for her).

My father is probably a 9w8 or more likely, 8w9. Hard to tell. I have been unable to pin down his MBTI type at all, which is unusual for me.

I couldn't decide between those two for my dad for quite a while, although I finally settled on 9w8. He's right on the E/S border, probably E. ESTJ or ESTP would be my bet (he was an accountant for 40 years--he'd have to be xSTx!)

As for the rest of my family--my immediately younger sister (middle child--I'm the oldest and only son) was so taken with the Enneagram that she bought "Personality Types" and typed herself. I had her typed as a 6 and she confirmed herself as a 6w7. I think she's an ENTP, but I'm not sure. My youngest sister I have tentatively typed as a 3w2 and she is probably ESFJ. I haven't talked to her about the Enneagram--she isn't the intellectual either my mom or middle sister are!

Needless to say, I have never had a great relationship with either of my parents (especially my mother). I have always felt isolated from both of them; they always thought I was weird and lacked common sense. My mother, in particular, doesn't understand or even try to understand IN types.
According to Riso, the Type 4 "romantic" personality felt alienated from both parents during childhood. Interesting.

I could see that your mom, who would be very interested in being the best and being a material success, would find you odd (my mom was very happy with my intelligence, but has long had the same worries about my impracticality--Sevens are also practical people) and your dad, who, if he indeed has 9 in his makeup, would be interested in a serene inner life, would find your turbulent inner life more than a bit foreign.

According to one of Riso's interpretations, the primary conflict in a Four is between the id and the ego, with the id stronger, resulting in introverted intuition. In an Eight, the same two parts of the mind are also in conflict, but the ego is stronger, resulting in extraverted intuition. You two are mirror images!

At least I could admire my dad's calmness and my mom's quick tongue and mind, even if I didn't identify with either of their agendas. As a result, I found my own role in the family as the "brain" and rememberer of family history. I still do. My mom calls me "Don Requerdo"--Lord of Memory! I once asked her if she remembered details of the family past. She responded "No, that's your job."

My ex-wife, on the other hand, ridiculed my memory, which never ceased to infuriate me.

Wow, Vince, sounds like you can relate. It's true, my mother does find my preoccupation with the inner life and lack of interest in material success odd. Whenever I try to talk to her about things that interest me, she tunes out and changes the subject to her public relations job (perfect for a 3!) or some shopping expedition she's planning, or her session at the health club (she is still extremely attractive and in shape at age 71!) I think she probably has a 2-wing, as she used to always try to "help" me and others be more like her, and was always an excellent and gracious hostess for her many guests. She was always overly concenred with my appearance, insisting I wear pretty clothes, have my hair just so, and fretting about my weight. Everything is about appearances and status with her, and it's impossible to discuss anything deep with her. So I no longer bother. No, she did not take an Ennagram test, as such things do not interest her. Sometimes I wish Barb was my mother! She's so cool!

My father, it is true, does not like his serene inner life disturbed, and sweeps problems under the rug, sometimes ignoring them completely. Or he explodes in fits of bad temper. As he's aged, I think the 9 has become more dominant in his personality and he is more likely to just ignore problems. He has a pervasive "everything's fine" attitude; he often reminds me of Ronald Reagan, who is a 9.

Thanks for your input.

_________________
Labels tell you where the box is coming from and where it is headed and are quite helpful. They do not tell you what's inside though they might indicate "fragile", "handle with care", "this is not a Bill", "magnetic medium", etc.--VIRGIL K. SAARI

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2002-03-10 07:23 ]</font>

Stonewall, I think, somewhere back there, you wanted a breakdown of which SJ types were the most problematic. For me, I think it's ESTJ men and ISFJ women, the most traditional of all types. Neither type gets why anyone would want to live their live differently from the way things have "always" been done (whatever that is) and are extremely wary of change or anything else that upsets the "natural" order of things (whatever that is).

My in-laws are a classic ESTJ/ISFJ couple. They are so resistant to change that once, when my husband bought them an answering machine, they called him thinking it was broken because the little light had suddenly started blinking. This was in 1995. Their solution? Unplug the answering machine and just never leave the house. Hey, you never miss any calls that way!

Wow, you go away for a week or so and the thread doubles in size! It's been pretty active here.

Interesting comments about the SJ types - I can definitely relate to Susan and Neisha. If it's one type with whom I cannot seem to get along, it's SJ's of all varieties. No big surprise, my mother is ESTJ, and we've never seen eye to eye. I find myself reacting to the "rules" that SJ types seem to live by. On the other hand, they are masters of logistics and know how to use the rules to get what they want, so at work, an SJ is great to have around. Kinda like jcarson says - they love the details and handle them well. Thank God someone does. SJ types also dominate - there's more of them than anyone else. So you figure they basically run everything. It behooves me to try to get along with dominant SJ types!

I tend to gravitate toward NT's and NF's also but my favorite people are SP's. They are the most un-intense people around. Seems like they are pretty loose (unlike SJ's) but practical (masters of diplomacy & selling) and fun (not all serious, academic, or cerebral). I find that even though I connect well with other intuitive types, sometimes things get pretty serious or intense. SP's can be a breath of fresh air.

Pages and pages ago, Neisha asked me if the trial lawyer ENTP fit for me - I would have to say that although people tell me my personality is strong, I don't think I'm quite as magnetic as what you described. Probably depends on the situation - my students definitely saw me as nonconformist and analystical last year! But as you say, the way I score on MBTI changes based on the kids of scenarios I visualize when I'm taking the test. My current boss thinks I'm great at details! Hello? I guess I can be when I have to be, but really I think it's just that I've analyzed the work situation pretty well and developed a thorough plan. Ergo, details to one person could be analysis to another.

On visual thinking: I took one of those left brain right brain visual auditory tests awhile back and I was middle brained but almost entirely visual. I don't think the interpreters of the test saw being overly visual as a strength, though. Is there a correlation between visual thinking and intuition?

On 2002-03-09 17:08, madscientist wrote:

Normally, I do not know who is, and who isn't an ESFJ or ISFJ. For instance, I would not be able to tell is someone is an ESFJ or an ESFP.

I share your uncertainty because I have not been in the habit of assessing the world in these terms. However I believe that it is probably pretty easy to tell an ESFJ from an ESFP. The ESFJ is going to be more "by the book" and the ESFP a little more "freewheeling." The ESFP will test the limits a little while the ESFJ will probably adhere to norms. George W. Bush has got to be SFP although I am not certain whether he is E or I. You can see it in the way that he freely spins yarns and jokes even with "misunderestimated" words. Of course he is merely a front man for a very SJ structure so he does not exactly match that which he represents.

But I do tend to be very drawn to sweetness. In fact, that seems to be my weakness.

Yep, that sweetness will get an INTP every time.

Of course, there are those times in which a sweet and cute girl can bring out my weakness. What usually happens is that I lose control of my dominant Ti, making me kinda giddy (damn inferior Fe!!). The funny thing is that my brain is always fighting to regain its rational and detached mode. :razz:

Robert, Robert, you have to roll with it! The funny thing is that the "sweet and cute" SFJ girl will often take you (an INTP) for some sort of cur, for some strange reason. I guess they initially mistake your independence and individualism for some sort of amoral predatory libertinism (hehe). But they are always pleasantly surprised to learn that you are not at all what they first thought you were. It does not initially occur to them that you might be strictly defined and self-disciplined by your principles, and that those principles staunchly oppose that which they initially thought you were. Their heads seem to spin when they finally "get it" and then they really take to you. In fact, they cannot resist you. :wink:


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Stonewall Patton on 2002-03-11 10:07 ]</font>

Here is an interesting article on Ne vs. Ni.

http://thirsk.yi.org/psych/comparison/N_.html

This will be very useful in the pseudo-holy-war between INTPs and INTJs (for both sides, of course). :grin:

Robert what's the difference between Ne and Ni again? How do you know which you are?

Ne=Intuitive Extroversion
Ni=Intuitive introversion

I am not too familiar with the Jungian terminology; leave the fine distinctions to Robert or Stonewall.

On 2002-03-18 17:50, Donna Sherman wrote:
Robert what's the difference between Ne and Ni again? How do you know which you are?

The Ne causes divergent thinking and the Ni causes convergent thinking. The differences can be explained very well here, although I question them saying that Ne is not good for science and technology, and that Ni is not good for the arts and humanities. In fact, my mother, who is an INFJ (Ni Fe Ti Se), is artistic. Basically, I think that the differences is in the T-F scale. The farther along T you are, the better your scientific thinking, and the more F you are, the better your humanistic thinking. Another good explanation cah be found here.

Ni strives for convergent thought. The Ni starts with a web of possibilities. Then the Ni uses some inner process to narrow down these possibilities until we get to one, or at most, a few possible answers. The Ni works with a Je function such as Fe or Te. These functions give logical or emotional information from the surrounds, and feed it to the Ni, which converges this information to find one answer. Ni is linear.

Ne is very divergent. The Ne starts with an imagination, or a possibility of something. Then it makes connections to other objects and concepts. Several new possibilities descend from each possibility. One idea can erupt a brainstorming perception of many, many ideas at once. The Ne uses a different chaotic process. The Ne continuously provides more stimulus, and this, more and more possibilities. The Ne works with a Ji function such as Ti and Fi to find connections with the never-ending possibilities, and restructuring them to find not an answer, per se, but a truth. Ne is random and chaotic.

Because Ni is top-bottom function, this provides the need for closure among xNxJ types. Because Ne is a bottom-up function, this provides the need for open-endedness among xNxP types.

So, for the INTJ (Ni Te Fi Se), thinking largely occurs when he thinks about how the outer world is organized logically. Then he uses his Ni to produce the best possibility for the improvement of something, or the creation of something. Because of his auxiliary Te nature, he will then apply it. So the INTJ only explores a subject enough so that he can apply it somehow to the outer world.

For the INTP (Ti Ne Si Fe), The process might normally begin with his Ne. Normally, for some reason, the Ne sees something that interests him. That then leads to a session of brainstorming, and these thoughts get linked to many others, while he withdraws from the world. Finally, this may lead to an idea. And from there, the Ti largely takes over, organizing all of this information into a theory, a blueprint, and maybe even an invention. Then this is stuck in the INTP's system of knowledge, where further use of the Ti and the Ne will find a place for it in his inner kingdom of thought, by which it can easily be used later on, improved on, or attached to another concept. While the INTJ seeks to only understand a concept enough to be able to apply it someway, the INTP does not normally seek to apply it, but prefers to leave the implementation to others. The INTP, however, does take an idea far beyond what an INTJ would, as his goal is total understanding.

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
---------------------------------------------
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"Not to know is bad, but to refuse to know is worse." -- A Gambian Proverb

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-03-19 11:07 ]</font>

What is the role of the Si in the INTP, and of tertiary functions in general?

On 2002-03-19 11:59, Chris Loyd '82 wrote:
What is the role of the Si in the INTP, and of tertiary functions in general?

I would guess that the tertiary function is a helper to the dominant one. Basically, mature use of this function doesn't begin until the early to mid 30s. The thrid function also balances the excesses of the auxiliary function. The dominant function might often call on the tertiary in service, but until maturity, the third function is rarely used on its own.

The end function of the INTP is of course the Ti, while Ne and Si are means.

Let's say that the INTP is imagining things. Eventually, the INTP will hit an idea, and the Ti will take over from there. The Ne process strives to get the entire picture. But for the INTP to build knowledge and design systems, the INTP needs to have some attention to detail, and this is where Si comes in. The Ti will call on the Si function, and will compare with past experiences. The INTP will then use the Si to store the seemingly important details in a vast pool of knowledge. Without the Si function to aid the Ti, removing the excesses of the Ne, INTPs would largely be unable to structure their knowledge and designs.

So Mr. Mad, is that correct: Ne is always linked to P and Ni to J?

The Si also has some interesting functions described by one writer, Paul James, which I particularly relate to:

Introverted Sensing often plays an important role in the private world of the INTP.
When he visits a place, whether new or already known, his Si function gives an
overriding concern for the atmosphere or mood of the place. In his subconscious,
he connects the present experiences of his surroundings with memories of his past,
sometimes deep past. A sense of history, of universality, is almost always invoked.
When on holiday, the INTP wants to experience above all the ambience of each
location. Specific details in the present are relatively unimportant and will not be well
remembered. However, the atmosphere or mood will be remembered long after, as
though it were a solid object. Since people encountered on a holiday usually count
as details, unless more personal contact develops, the INTP tends to be drawn more
to lonely, isolated places where atmosphere is less disturbed. Nevertheless, the
presence of people does add its own ambience which can also be appreciated considerably. The net result of this concern for past experiences and of mood/atmosphere is that INTPs belong centrally to those types referred to as melancolic. The INTP melancolic is typically drawn to wild polar expanses, to mountain ranges and all places on the edges of civilisation. Whatever his particular yearning might actually be, it has a common root. The homeland of the INTP's
psyche is a small and cosy community, isolated in the middle of a vast expanse of
wilderness.

Because the present is inextricably linked to a sense of the past, INTPs tend to
hoard items which help solidify the connection to the past. They find it very difficult
to let go of anything they have collected (or indeed created) and which may have a
nostalgic meaning. They assume that any object which is of interest now is bound to
remain of interest for the rest of their lives. This emphasizes a strong sense of
universality in the progression of time, just as it emphasizes the seriousness with
which INTPs approach their interests. Frivolity is not in their vocabulary. INTPs often
love keeping lists and databases in areas of interest, especially when the lists are
associated with things of the past. Collecting periodical magazines or other media of
interest is also a very common INTP trait. Such a collection is usually taken very
seriously. Yet the collective whole, considered as a temporal rather than spatial
object, always assumes more importance in the mind of the INTP than the objects
forming the collection themselves. Hence, INTPs are collectors, but they are
collecters for whom the objects themselves are only important in so far as they
evoke a connection to past events, in so far as they yield a nostalgic mood. The
curious problem with any collection of an INTP is that he typically fails to enjoy it in the here and now. Items are stored away so that they can evoke this time at some
point in the future, but such a point often never occurs. It may never occur because
INTPs are always so mentally active that they continually delve into new interests,
and continue to hoard items relating to these, so that they rarely allow themselves
enough time to reflect on the ever expanding library of their past. The interests of an
INTP would be enough to occupy him for several lifetimes if that were possible.

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Eric A Meece on 2002-03-19 18:46 ]</font>

On 2002-03-19 12:57, madscientist wrote:
I would guess that the tertiary function is a helper to the dominant one. Basically, mature use of this function doesn't begin until the early to mid 30s. The third function also balances the excesses of the auxiliary function. The dominant function might often call on the tertiary in service, but until maturity, the third function is rarely used on its own.

Can you expand on what you mean when you say the mature use of the function begins in the 30's? How does it vary when younger?

Your example is one of the clearest explanation I've seen in how the various functions work together for an INTP.

On 2002-03-19 20:54, Tess wrote:

Can you expand on what you mean when you say the mature use of the function begins in the 30's? How does it vary when younger?

Your example is one of the clearest explanation I've seen in how the various functions work together for an INTP.

Thanks, and sure.

Basically, two functions that are diametrically opposite cannot be used at the same time. If we did try to use both at the same time, blockage would ensue, preventing the proper usage of both functions.

In each type, there are 4 Jungian functions. The tertiary function is always opposite of the auxiliary function, while the inferior function is opposite of the dominant function. So for an INTP, the jungian description is Ti Ne Si Fe, and as you can see, Ne is the opposite of the Si, and Fe is the opposite of the Ti.

Because of this, sometime very early in our lives, we choose (for hitherto unknown reasons) which functions we want to exercise. It is even possible that we might choose our functions before birth. Because the ESFJ type is the diametric opposite of the INTP type (Fe Si Ne Ti), I will also use this as an example. So that means that Allybear decided very early in life to primarily use Fe, and decided to use Si to back up her Fe. Stonewall, however, decided to use Ti, and use his Ne to back up his Ti.

It is practically impossible for an INTP to have developed his Fe early in life. Doing so would prevent the development of his Ti, and would actually do much more harm. When you are an infant, your job is to learn about the world as quickly as possible. As a result, when you have chosen which function to exercise, you will use that function throughout your younger years. The brain gets stronger with use in a similar way that you muscles gain strength. The areas of the brain that you exercise will gain much more connections, and usage would be much easier. In order to learn about the world, you will pick one function, and exercise it until perfection. You will eventually also pick an auxiliary function to back up your dominant function.

By the time you reach childhood, you will have learned an extraordinary amount. Your dominant function will already be powerful, and your auxiliary function will be also be powerful, but of course, not as powerful. You will become so used to using your dominant function that using its diametric opposite, the inferior function is impossible. Thus, that function stays largely in the unconscious, crushed overwhelmingly by the dominant function. The same thing happens between the auxiliary and tertiary functions, except on a much smaller scale.

So, for your young years, you will largely exercise your dominant function, while using the auxiliary it up. The dominant function might call on the tertiary function, but this would require you to shut off your auxiliary function. The secondary function can call the inferior function, but this would require shutting off the dominant function, which is impossible at this level of mental development.

This brings us to the aspect of differentiation. The dominant function is the most differentiated one. That means that you exercise by far the most conscious control of this function. The inferior function is undifferentiated, meaning that you do not have conscious control of it. Of course, as stated above, having TOTAL conscious of one function will mean that you have ZERO control of its diametric opposite. The auxiliary function is mostly conscious, and the tertiary function is mostly unconscious.

The dominant function is the one in which we spend most of our time in. The auxiliary function is opposite of the dominant function in direction. So if the dominant function is introverted, then the auxiliary function is extraverted. With these two first functions, which is called the primary axis, you are able to function in the world. Therefore, the tertiary and inferior functions are not needed most of the time, hence, their low level of differentiation. The tertiary and inferior functions are together referred to as the secondary axis. For some reason that I do not know, when you enter your lower 30s, your tertiary function begins to become more differentiated. When you are in your mid 40s or later, your inferior function becomes more differentiated. As a result, you have more control over these functions.

Although I do not know why these functions develop at their own pace, I can provide speculation on why it happens.

Basically, we learn how to use the dominant and auxiliary functions early in life. Because the dominant function is used very consciously, it's development is ahead of the other functions. However, your dominant function operates in a vacuum if you have nothing to support it. Therefore, you develop an auxiliary function that is opposite in the EvI (Extraversion versus Introversion) preference, and opposite in the JvP preference. The dominant function is still used more than the auxiliary, but the auxiliary function is used often too. The development of the auxiliary function proceeds at a slower pace than the dominant function, and will of course never catch up to that of the dominant function.

Now, here is where the speculation begins. Normally, by the time you reach 30, your auxiliary function is developed to a point in which you have almost complete control of it and/or the dominant function has become powerful enough to shut off the auxiliary function. Thus, you are able to use your tertiary function better. This would probably mean that development of the auxiliary would slow down in order to compensate for the development of the tertiary. When you reach the mid 40s or later, then it is possible that your Ne is developed to a point in which it can be almost totally differentiated, which means that the auxiliary function can be used while the dominant function takes a rest. Now, when the dominant function takes a rest, that leaves room for the inferior function to finally come out of the shadow. Then, the function can finally be used.

Of course, the above is speculation, and should not be taken seriously at all. I hope this helped.