Allybear:

Do you think that you would've been interested in S&H theory about 13 years ago?

Robert, what are the functions for someone who is an ENFP "Pedagogue"? A woman on RAMD who took the Enneagram test got a tie between 2 and 7 and I'm trying to see if she is predominantly Fe or Se to break the tie.

On 2002-03-22 02:18, Vince Lamb '59 wrote:
Robert, what are the functions for someone who is an ENFP "Pedagogue"? A woman on RAMD who took the Enneagram test got a tie between 2 and 7 and I'm trying to see if she is predominantly Fe or Se to break the tie.

The Jungian Functions for the ENFP are: Ne Fi Te Si.

On 2002-03-19 18:45, Eric A Meece wrote:
So Mr. Mad, is that correct: Ne is always linked to P and Ni to J?

Well, that depends on your SvN preference. If you prefer S over N, then Ni is linked to P and Ne is linked to J. But if you prefer N, then Ne is linked to P and Ni is linked to J. I'll post the preferences for every type below so that you can see the pattern.

ESTJ: Te Si Ne Fi
ESFJ: Fe Si Ne Ti
ISTJ: Si Te Fi Ne
ISFJ: Si Fe Ti Ne
ESTP: Se Ti Fe Ni
ESFP: Se Fi Te Ni
ISTP: Ti Se Ni Fe
ISFP: Fi Se Ni Te
ENTJ: Te Ni Se Fi
ENFJ: Fe Ni Se Ti
INTJ: Ni Te Fi Se
INFJ: Ni Fe Ti Se
ENTP: Ne Ti Fe Si
ENFP: Ne Fi Te Si
INTP: Ti Ne Si Fe
INFP: Fi Ne Si Te

As you can probably see here, the types follow a pattern for their Jungian functions. In fact, you can see some very nice symmetry among the types.

For instance, when you look at the ENTP vs INTP, you will see that the primary and secondary axes use the saeme functions, but in the reverse order within each axis. That is the difference between an Extraverted and Introverted type. For the difference between F and T, you will see that the dominant and inferior functions are different in their TvF preference, but the same in their EvI preference. For the difference between N and S, you will see that it is the auxiliary and tertiary functions that are different. They are the same in their EvI preference, but different in their SvN preference. Another symmetry arises when you compare the types with different EvI and JvP preference, such as the INTP and ENTJ. The differences in their functions like in the EvI preference of each function. Another peculiar symmetry arises when the SvN and TvF preferences are different. When we compare the INTP with the ISFP, we can see that the EvI preference of each function is the same, but the TvF and SvN of each function is the opposite. Where only the EvI preference is the same, such as in the INTP vs. ISFJ, we have another symmetry. They will share all of the same functions, except the primary axis and the secondary axis is different. For diametric opposites, such as the INTP vs. ESFJ, another symmetry arises in which the usage of Jungian functions is the reverse of each other. This should provide some food for thought. :smile:

The Si also has some interesting functions described by one writer, Paul James, which I particularly relate to:

Introverted Sensing often plays an important role in the private world of the INTP.
When he visits a place, whether new or already known, his Si function gives an
overriding concern for the atmosphere or mood of the place. In his subconscious,
he connects the present experiences of his surroundings with memories of his past,
sometimes deep past. A sense of history, of universality, is almost always invoked.
When on holiday, the INTP wants to experience above all the ambience of each
location. Specific details in the present are relatively unimportant and will not be well
remembered. However, the atmosphere or mood will be remembered long after, as
though it were a solid object. Since people encountered on a holiday usually count
as details, unless more personal contact develops, the INTP tends to be drawn more
to lonely, isolated places where atmosphere is less disturbed. Nevertheless, the
presence of people does add its own ambience which can also be appreciated considerably. The net result of this concern for past experiences and of mood/atmosphere is that INTPs belong centrally to those types referred to as melancolic. The INTP melancolic is typically drawn to wild polar expanses, to mountain ranges and all places on the edges of civilisation. Whatever his particular yearning might actually be, it has a common root. The homeland of the INTP's
psyche is a small and cosy community, isolated in the middle of a vast expanse of
wilderness.

Because the present is inextricably linked to a sense of the past, INTPs tend to
hoard items which help solidify the connection to the past. They find it very difficult
to let go of anything they have collected (or indeed created) and which may have a
nostalgic meaning. They assume that any object which is of interest now is bound to
remain of interest for the rest of their lives. This emphasizes a strong sense of
universality in the progression of time, just as it emphasizes the seriousness with
which INTPs approach their interests. Frivolity is not in their vocabulary. INTPs often
love keeping lists and databases in areas of interest, especially when the lists are
associated with things of the past. Collecting periodical magazines or other media of
interest is also a very common INTP trait. Such a collection is usually taken very
seriously. Yet the collective whole, considered as a temporal rather than spatial
object, always assumes more importance in the mind of the INTP than the objects
forming the collection themselves. Hence, INTPs are collectors, but they are
collecters for whom the objects themselves are only important in so far as they
evoke a connection to past events, in so far as they yield a nostalgic mood. The
curious problem with any collection of an INTP is that he typically fails to enjoy it in the here and now. Items are stored away so that they can evoke this time at some
point in the future, but such a point often never occurs. It may never occur because
INTPs are always so mentally active that they continually delve into new interests,
and continue to hoard items relating to these, so that they rarely allow themselves
enough time to reflect on the ever expanding library of their past. The interests of an
INTP would be enough to occupy him for several lifetimes if that were possible.

_________________
Keep the Spirit Alive,
Eric Meece

I relate to this definition of Si in INTPs also.

Robert, some bad news for INTPs this morning. The Defense Department dropped the JASON scientists as advisors. While there are, of course, questions as to the use of JASON work (i.e. for killing people), this seems like a body blow to the notion of scientists working without bureacratic interference. I believe the reason for dropping the contract was that the scientists (whose members apparently include several Nobel Laureates) wouldn't accept into their group a couple of high tech executives.

On 2002-03-21 23:38, madscientist wrote:
Allybear:

Do you think that you would've been interested in S&H theory about 13 years ago?

Not at all...even if I had read something about it in the paper and thought it was interesting, and even if I was online and this forum existed, I wouldn't be posting at lunchtime like I am today - I went to lunch with a group of girls every day back then, where we planned birthday parties for our co-workers or went clothes shopping!

I miss those days, but at least now I'm able to be alone without my skin crawling! :lol:

One other thing I wanted to bring up in this discussion - we talked awhile back about how people think - in visual terms, etc. Most of the time, I think in either conversations or posts to this or other boards. For instance, when I get an idea, I think of it as "oh, Ally, I gotta remember to do this", then I think, "oh, I gotta tell JP to tell me to remember this", and I think of his answer and so on, or if I am thinking about something that fits in here, I think in terms of a whole post and what I will say. I know there's only a few other extraverts on the board, but I wonder if any of them think in conversations.

Ally, after learning more about ordering of functions, I'm pretty sure I'm an ENTP and not an INTP. I think both in conversation and visually. If I'm thinking about something relating to others (for example demonstrating my flame skills to Stonewall on the "spam" thread), I think in terms of conversation. If I am trying to analyse a concept, I do it visually.

BTW, I'm about two weeks into a much more extraverted job, with lots of phone and people contact, and I haven't felt so energized since I lived in a dorm in college. I hadn't realized how draining the monkish existence of legal research and writing was for me, even though I am only slightly extraverted. I'm good at the reading, thinking, writing stuff, but it's an effort from which I am easily distracted.

On 2002-03-22 11:52, Neisha '67 wrote:

BTW, I'm about two weeks into a much more extraverted job, with lots of phone and people contact, and I haven't felt so energized since I lived in a dorm in college. I hadn't realized how draining the monkish existence of legal research and writing was for me, even though I am only slightly extraverted. I'm good at the reading, thinking, writing stuff, but it's an effort from which I am easily distracted.

Neisha, congrats on the new job! :smile:

Thanks!

On 2002-03-22 11:21, allybear '62 wrote:

One other thing I wanted to bring up in this discussion - we talked awhile back about how people think - in visual terms, etc. Most of the time, I think in either conversations or posts to this or other boards. For instance, when I get an idea, I think of it as "oh, Ally, I gotta remember to do this", then I think, "oh, I gotta tell JP to tell me to remember this", and I think of his answer and so on, or if I am thinking about something that fits in here, I think in terms of a whole post and what I will say. I know there's only a few other extraverts on the board, but I wonder if any of them think in conversations.

I'm not an Extravert, Ally (EvI is 2v8), but I do think in conversations if I'm thinking about writing something that requires thought...like posting here. I often find myself writing mental posts while driving or showering. Too bad all my great phrases vanish before I get to a keyboard! :lol:

On 2002-03-22 10:43, Neisha '67 wrote:
Robert, some bad news for INTPs this morning. The Defense Department dropped the JASON scientists as advisors. While there are, of course, questions as to the use of JASON work (i.e. for killing people), this seems like a body blow to the notion of scientists working without bureacratic interference. I believe the reason for dropping the contract was that the scientists (whose members apparently include several Nobel Laureates) wouldn't accept into their group a couple of high tech executives.

I wouldn't blame the JASON scientists not accepting executives into their group. I would seethe at such a proposition also.

So, is the DoD planning on replacing the JASON scientists with a group that is run by executives?

On 2002-03-22 11:21, allybear '62 wrote:

Not at all...even if I had read something about it in the paper and thought it was interesting, and even if I was online and this forum existed, I wouldn't be posting at lunchtime like I am today - I went to lunch with a group of girls every day back then, where we planned birthday parties for our co-workers or went clothes shopping!

I miss those days, but at least now I'm able to be alone without my skin crawling! :lol:

Sounds interesting. I would have to say that only two possibilities exist. Either the possible start of 4T has generated interest in the affairs of our nation and in our history and possible future, or the development of the tertiary function has aroused interest.

But clothes shopping...everyday!? :razz: {reels in sheer horror} I would shrivel up and die in pure boredom.

One other thing I wanted to bring up in this discussion - we talked awhile back about how people think - in visual terms, etc. Most of the time, I think in either conversations or posts to this or other boards. For instance, when I get an idea, I think of it as "oh, Ally, I gotta remember to do this", then I think, "oh, I gotta tell JP to tell me to remember this", and I think of his answer and so on, or if I am thinking about something that fits in here, I think in terms of a whole post and what I will say. I know there's only a few other extraverts on the board, but I wonder if any of them think in conversations.
[/quote]

Hmm...interesting. I do not think in terms of whole conversations. Basically, I only think about the main point that I want to make. Once I have decided on which point to make, I look for possible ways to support it. Then I speak, having the exact point in mind, with everything else I say to support or substantiate my point is done in real-time. So while I am speaking, I always think a few words ahead, and analyzing these words to see if they are coherent and make sense.

On 2002-03-22 11:52, Neisha '67 wrote:
Ally, after learning more about ordering of functions, I'm pretty sure I'm an ENTP and not an INTP. I think both in conversation and visually. If I'm thinking about something relating to others (for example demonstrating my flame skills to Stonewall on the "spam" thread), I think in terms of conversation. If I am trying to analyse a concept, I do it visually.

BTW, I'm about two weeks into a much more extraverted job, with lots of phone and people contact, and I haven't felt so energized since I lived in a dorm in college. I hadn't realized how draining the monkish existence of legal research and writing was for me, even though I am only slightly extraverted. I'm good at the reading, thinking, writing stuff, but it's an effort from which I am easily distracted.

Congratulations! However, I would hate a job in which I would have to constantly use the phone. I absolutely abhor telephones. I am not good at conversations on the telephone. The ringing of telephones interrupts my stream of thought. Trying to analyze a telephone conversation just seems very awkward.

Perhaps, my dream job is one in which I get to concentrate and think in solitude. Perhaps, a computer programmer would be a great one for me.

On 2002-03-23 10:08, madscientist wrote:
I absolutely abhor telephones. I am not good at conversations on the telephone. The ringing of telephones interrupts my stream of thought. Trying to analyze a telephone conversation just seems very awkward.

Mr. Reed, I too hate Mr. Bell's Satanic instrument of disruption. I pause too long on the phone as I do in "real life", but they can see that I am considering their last statement. I have tried Internet conferencing such as NetMeeting with video and that went much better. HTH

Neisha - congratulations on the job! :smile:

Robert/Virgil - I can't imagine not being on the phone...that's most of my job! I don't talk much on it once I go home, because I am sick of hearing it ring all day, but a large part of my day is spent on the phone.

Robert - I think it's a combination of issues that have led me here - the tertiary function is coming into play (or actually coming back into play, when I was much younger, I was much more intellectually involved than I was for many years, and now it's circling back. Then, there is the 9/11 factor - that was when I first heard of The Fourth Turning, a friend of mine mentioned it in connection with 9/11, and I started reading. But, if this had happenned 10 years ago, would I have started reading? I doubt it - my reaction to the Gulf War was to make and sell patriotic door wreaths!

On 2002-03-23 20:16, allybear '62 wrote:
Neisha - congratulations on the job! :smile:

Robert/Virgil - I can't imagine not being on the phone...that's most of my job! I don't talk much on it once I go home, because I am sick of hearing it ring all day, but a large part of my day is spent on the phone.

Bin Laden Plotted on a Telephone. Why am I not surprised? I think Mr. Adolf Hitler used a phone as well.

On 2002-03-23 10:08, madscientist wrote:
...I would hate a job in which I would have to constantly use the phone. I absolutely abhor telephones. I am not good at conversations on the telephone. The ringing of telephones interrupts my stream of thought. Trying to analyze a telephone conversation just seems very awkward.

Perhaps, my dream job is one in which I get to concentrate and think in solitude. Perhaps, a computer programmer would be a great one for me.

Well, if you like working w/words, being an editor is a great job for working in quiet & solitude. And speaking as an editor, I can sincerely say that you write beautifully & would be an asset to the editorial profession. However, the pay is not comparable to that of a computer programmer...by a long shot. :smile:

On 2002-03-22 20:20, Sherry63 wrote:

On 2002-03-22 11:21, allybear '62 wrote:

One other thing I wanted to bring up in this discussion - we talked awhile back about how people think - in visual terms, etc. Most of the time, I think in either conversations or posts to this or other boards. For instance, when I get an idea, I think of it as "oh, Ally, I gotta remember to do this", then I think, "oh, I gotta tell JP to tell me to remember this", and I think of his answer and so on, or if I am thinking about something that fits in here, I think in terms of a whole post and what I will say. I know there's only a few other extraverts on the board, but I wonder if any of them think in conversations.

I'm not an Extravert, Ally (EvI is 2v8), but I do think in conversations if I'm thinking about writing something that requires thought...like posting here. I often find myself writing mental posts while driving or showering. Too bad all my great phrases vanish before I get to a keyboard! :lol:

FWIW, as such a strong Introvert I suppose it's rather surprising that I worked for 4-1/2 years as a maitre d' & bartender. However, I compensated by spending the bulk of my free time *alone*.

Sherry "I vant to be alone" Garbo :wink:
_________________
"My library/Was dukedom large enough." --William Shakespeare, 'The Tempest'

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sherry63 on 2002-03-25 22:39 ]</font>

I hate the phone too. I have always regarded it as an interruption of my quiet time, of which I require huge quantities.

Strangely enough, my job involves a great deal of phone contact. Needless to say, I hate it, though I do reasonably well at it.

When I lived in New York, I worked as an editor, both staff and freelance--and I loved that!

If I didn't have kids (and a very extravered husband who loves the phone), I would probably not have one at all. Too bad for you, Mom! I much prefer email, where I have a chance to formulate my thoughts and express them as I wish, rather than be interrupted at a moment's notice. What a Godsend!

Here's a question that may have been addressed previously, but rereading 45 pages is too daunting at this time of the night...has anyone attempted to type their children? There's an interesting book called "Nature By Nurture," by Paul Tieger & Barbara Barron-Tieger, that has descriptions of each Type in three stages of childhood (through age 16). The book also discusses parenting <bold>to</bold> Type; i.e., adjusting one's parenting style to better fit the child's style. Just curious....

I think I have my daughter's type figured out, Sherry. She's 4 years old now but her personality has been pretty set from day one. She is ESFP. E: this girl's been looking people straight in the eye since she was 3 months old and smiling. She's a nonstop talker. S: Seems to take in information via the senses; likes working on "projects" with her hands. F: already she communicates on a feeling level - uses feeling words, sad, mad, happy. Expresses feelings easily. P: I think P mostly because she's pretty loose and flexible. Although she enjoys cleaning and picking things up, overall I think SP fits better for her than SJ.

I'm almost positive that my son (7) is an ENTP. He fits the "Inventor" description perfectly.

My daughter (10) is harder to pinpoint. My guess is that she is ISTP or ISFP.

On 2002-03-25 22:35, Sherry63 wrote:

Well, if you like working w/words, being an editor is a great job for working in quiet & solitude. And speaking as an editor, I can sincerely say that you write beautifully & would be an asset to the editorial profession. However, the pay is not comparable to that of a computer programmer...by a long shot. :smile:

Well thanks. Maybe I can become a freelance editor. :smile:

On 2002-03-26 14:36, Susan Brombacher wrote:
I hate the phone too. I have always regarded it as an interruption of my quiet time, of which I require huge quantities.

Strangely enough, my job involves a great deal of phone contact. Needless to say, I hate it, though I do reasonably well at it.

When I lived in New York, I worked as an editor, both staff and freelance--and I loved that!

If I didn't have kids (and a very extravered husband who loves the phone), I would probably not have one at all. Too bad for you, Mom! I much prefer email, where I have a chance to formulate my thoughts and express them as I wish, rather than be interrupted at a moment's notice. What a Godsend!

Yes, email is a godsend. I just can't wait until telephones are phased out.

On 2002-03-26 20:04, Sherry63 wrote:
Here's a question that may have been addressed previously, but rereading 45 pages is too daunting at this time of the night...has anyone attempted to type their children? There's an interesting book called "Nature By Nurture," by Paul Tieger & Barbara Barron-Tieger, that has descriptions of each Type in three stages of childhood (through age 16). The book also discusses parenting <bold>to</bold> Type; i.e., adjusting one's parenting style to better fit the child's style. Just curious....

I don't yet have children (and don't plan on having any in the near future), but I have typed my family. My father is most likely an ESTP (and definitely is an 8w7). My mother is an INFJ. My sister is likely an ISFP. My cousins seem to be mostly intuitives. It seems like my extended family might contain a relatively large number of Intuitives.