yes, please another cuppa!

I think MBTI types could be genetic. My Dad is INFJ, Mom ESTJ, brother INTJ, brother ENFP, me ENTP. I've thought my mother probably had a weird time since she was surrounded by intuitives in a world of sensing domination!

I lived in the Midwest for awhile and noticed that there seemed to be a more sensing mentality. I also lived on the West Coast and maybe it was who I was hanging with but it seemed very SP to me. The Northeast seems to have a great percentage of intuitives than the Midwest at least.

But I've always thought that intuitive types try to find each other since we're usually in the minority, so for instance if all your friends are intuitive then it's probably because that's who you like to be around not necessarily geographics.

My aged mother is an ESFJ GI and I an INTP Boomer, it must be genetic (skipping generations perhaps). HTH

On 2002-04-02 22:58, Eric A Meece wrote:

I can't imagine that MBTI types run in families. Especially where there is a generation gap between prophets and civics. I am almost opposite to my parents. Generations is the major factor here, not genetics.

Are you saying nurture, not nature? Do you also think that majority righthandedness is also nurture and not nature? By extension, do you think that majority left-braininess (there has to be a better word) is nurture and not nature?

I guess Jung thought that types were hard-wired for life, and maybe they are, but that doesn't automatically mean they are genetic. If they were, then I and my parents would have identical types. I am INTP or INFP and my Mom is ESTJ; my Dad probably ISTJ.

OK, but if it is nurture like you say, then why would your xSTJ parents have made you into an INTP? More than likely you would have ended up an xSTJ yourself, wouldn't you have? I find it much more credible that two xSTJs might produce a genetic INTP than that they would nurture something so alien and opposite to themselves. People produce children with different hair colors, eye colors, etc., than their own every day. These traits are carried down from various forebears. The same is easily true of termperament.

N is my strongest score, yet my Mom is clearly S. There are only 16 types. The chances are only 1 in 16 of being of the same type as another person. If types are genetic, then certainly the odds would indicate that children would almost certainly be the same type as at least one of their parents. Yet the odds are, your type is more likely to be the same as one of your friends who may share the same interests and attitudes as you, but may even be of another race or color than you.

I think you are approaching this the wrong way. Your brain contains all the same areas with associated abilities as everyone else's. People go through the same schooling, etc., yet they find that their talents lie in different areas. In the same way that you as a child found it easier to use your right hand than your left (assuming that you are right-handed), at about the same time you found it easiest to use your brain's Ti function than any of the other seven, and you also found it easier to use Ne instead of Se with your Ti. Other kids found it easier to learn by rote (which you clearly did not) because their brain functions were weighted differently.

Again, everybody takes the same classes yet everybody discovers differing strengths. Children are not taught by their parents to be visual thinkers, for example. They either are or are not. It is genetic. In the same way that your visual nature was hardwired into your brain, so was your preference for Ti and Ne. Indeed your visuality would appear to be a function of Ti and Ne. You might have to go back to your grandparents or earlier to find someone who also used Ti, but surely that person existed.

BTW, I have to go back to a great-grandfather to find an ancestor whom I am certain was an INTP although my grandmother was possibly one (I just cannot peg her with certainty).

That's so funny, Donna, as soon as I logged off I thought, oh wait, actually there are a whole bunch of SPs out here -- zen yoga types and X-treme snow sport types and artsy live-in-the-moment types, the whole SP gamut. I sort of forget about them in my lawyer/non-profit/shoe designer/engineer/jouranlist/book store/coffee house/nerdy little universe! Then, I thought, if anyone points this out to me it will be Donna!

I think my mom had the same experience as yours. She was the only extravert in a family of introverts, with me on the introvert/extravert fence, in a whole culture of extraverts!

That's pretty funny Neisha, although I had no intention of criticizing your hypothesis! :smile: :smile:

I do think that certain types will gravitate toward living in certain areas, though. No offense to anyone here, but I really could not stand the Midwest - it felt very confining. When I got back East, it was almost like I felt immediate relief. I liked Southern California, but back in those party hardy early 80's days, I just couldn't get it together there. Western NY probably has an OK balance of types.

OK, so change of subject. In my 30's I've felt sort of like I know myself better than I did when I was younger. When I was younger, I wanted to be that touchy-feely social worker fighting the just cause, so I think I bordered on the T-F dimension for a long time. But over the last few years, I've started to realize that no way am I F no matter how much I would want to be. I've been embracing my T so to speak and finding that I'm really much better analytically than in the touchy-feely department. Anyway, maybe I wasn't encouraged along natural lines or something - or maybe society doesn't reinforce female thinking types. Whatever the reason, I'm finding myself considering a career change and feeling really done with social work. It occurred to me that this type of phenomenon might be one reason why people test out differently on MBTI tests from time to time. And also just noticing that I think there's this domain of self acceptance or how-you-want-to-be-perceived thing that isn't measured by typical MBTI testing which is measured by other psychological instruments such as the Millon or MMPI.

Just my random thoughts.

On 2002-04-03 11:49, Neisha '67 wrote:

Who was it who has the kid who needs everything wiped spotless? My sister and my little niece was/is like that! My sister turned out to be an ISFJ (or this is what I have surmised -- she is very threatened by this sort of thing). Don't know about my niece because she's only 2 1/2 and I don't see her often enough to be able to "type" her, but I suspect she's probably an ISFJ or ESFJ.

Neisha, it's my daughter. She's still a neat freak, at least about food & clothes, but she has lightened up to the point where she can have icing on her face & not mind (at least while she's eating!). And BTW, regarding your niece, Barron & Barron-Tieger say in their description of an ISFJ that they are *very* particular about staying neat & tidy (as well as being quite sensitive about how textures feel, which is one reason I considered ISFJ for my daughter--she's a 100% cotton girl).

On 2002-04-04 11:43, Donna Sherman wrote:

I do think that certain types will gravitate toward living in certain areas, though. No offense to anyone here, but I really could not stand the Midwest - it felt very confining. When I got back East, it was almost like I felt immediate relief.

Wow, Donna, your Midwest experience is *exactly* like mine! I just never seemed to click w/anyone who was a native of or grew up in MI. In fact, when we moved back East 15 months ago, I realized that all the friends I had made in 7-1/2 years in MI were "imports" from somewhere else.

OK, so change of subject. In my 30's I've felt sort of like I know myself better than I did when I was younger. When I was younger, I wanted to be that touchy-feely social worker fighting the just cause, so I think I bordered on the T-F dimension for a long time. But over the last few years, I've started to realize that no way am I F no matter how much I would want to be. I've been embracing my T so to speak and finding that I'm really much better analytically than in the touchy-feely department. Anyway, maybe I wasn't encouraged along natural lines or something - or maybe society doesn't reinforce female thinking types....

All of the MBTI books I've read have talked about how difficult it is in American society for a man to be F & a woman to be T. Societal mor?s definitely do not encourage a man to be sensitive or a woman to be analytical. Also, I forget your Type, but perhaps T is your tertiary function, which starts to develop & be used more strongly in your 30s.

What sort of careers appeal to you, right off the top of your head?

Donna, I know what you mean about societal pressures, only for me, it was T vs. J. My mom and sister are both very J and, as we know, girls and women are expected to be all neat and tidy. As a result, for years I thought I was J, even though the descriptions never fit. I have always been more comfortable with as little structure as possible. It wasn't until I started talking with people on this site that it occured to me that I am not really J after all, but really an organized and motivated P.

I have also never been able to figure out whether I am E or I. Again, women are expected to be extraverts and draw people out. So, I am either a mellow extravert or a socially-inclined introvert. Hard to say. Lots of hard-charging T women in my family, though, so no pressure to deny my T tendencies.

What are you thinking about for a career change? I would think, with your direct-service and non-profit management background, that you could move pretty easily into policy work at the state or county level, perhaps as commission staff, or something. Also, there are lots of non-profits that do legislative advocacy and things like that that you would probably be really good at. You could probably stay with the same issues, but get away from direct-service and into more impact/systems related work.

Thanks for the support, Sherry & Neisha - I think I've needed it about right now!

As far as career change I've thought of a couple things related to teaching, since I teach part-time at the University of Buffalo. One would be teach secondary education social studies - probably wouldn't take all that much to get certified. I recently applied for a position teaching graduate school full-time in another part of the state, so something like that might be an option. Or there's the PhD in SW option, which might be more in line with where I'm at but would take a lot of committment, poverty, and time.

I loved Neisha's suggestion about county or state level policy/systems impact work. This might be right up my ally, since I have some experience in coalition-building. I wonder how you begin to access those kinds of jobs?

I've also thought about criminal justice - a very freeing thought actually. I could work for immigration or probation or something!
:smile:

It's actually been a long time since I was primarily direct service; I moved out of counseling after maybe 3 years. At this point I'm just tired of dysfunction and don't feel my strength is empathy anyway.

Sherry, that is really funny about your experience with the Midwest! What is it about the Midwest anyway? It's hard to put your finger on. Mostly for me I think I just like things looser than a typical Midwesterner and it sounds like you do too!

As far as MBTI goes, I don't think I was ever really an F. I thought I wanted to be an F. My father, a NF Lutheran minister, (and very much a traditionalist about gender roles) had a big influence on my values or what I thought I was supposed to be. Mom was a teacher and a stay at home mom (SJ) who had strong traditionalist values also. And to be fair, after I got clean and sober, I wanted to give something back. So I went into social work. But now it's not fitting. Now I find the things I like best are coalition-building, program development, analytical problem-solving, teaching, research, and like Neisha suggested system impact.

Neisha your section about how you thought you were J left me smiling. Other people always think I'm more J than P. I like my stuff to be ordered and organized AND I like plans loose and tentative. But recently I figured it out: NT's are naturally organized whether they are J or P because of the scientific need (or analytical, or strategic, or whatever need) to put some structure and order to things! It's the F-P's and SP's that really look messy! What do you think?

And I'm not a super-strong E, either. The only things that come out pretty strong are N and T. But how many people are THAT extraverted or introverted? Most of us are probably in the middle somewhere.

Wow, I hardly ever post this much. Hope it's not too long and boring . . .

On 2002-04-05 14:54, Donna Sherman wrote:

Sherry, that is really funny about your experience with the Midwest! What is it about the Midwest anyway? It's hard to put your finger on. Mostly for me I think I just like things looser than a typical Midwesterner and it sounds like you do too!

Uh, well, I'm a Midwesterner. I guess it depends on which part of the Midwest you're talking about. I live in a pretty progressive state. :smile:

When I've visited the East Coast, I always find things a little too accelerated for me. People drive too fast and get impatient. Also the cost of living is quite a bit higher.

Can't speak as much for the West Coast as I've only been there once, and that was a long time ago.

On 2002-04-05 15:01, Kiff '61 wrote:

Uh, well, I'm a Midwesterner. I guess it depends on which part of the Midwest you're talking about. I live in a pretty progressive state.

The Midwest is awful. The weather is awful. There are a lot of Blue Zoners. It is to fly-over! Here be Dragons....Warning! Warning! Warni

On 2002-04-05 15:17, Virgil K. Saari wrote:

On 2002-04-05 15:01, Kiff '61 wrote:

Uh, well, I'm a Midwesterner. I guess it depends on which part of the Midwest you're talking about. I live in a pretty progressive state.

The Midwest is awful. The weather is awful. There are a lot of Blue Zoners. It is to fly-over! Here be Dragons....Warning! Warning! Warni

Aw, Virgil. Our winters build character, doncha know? :grin:

As I said in one of my posts, ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE AGAINST ANYONE HERE! Besides, anyone who posts at 4T is way cool and way ahead of the game.

'Kay?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Donna Sherman on 2002-04-05 15:26 ]</font>

On 2002-04-05 15:23, Donna Sherman wrote:
As I said in one of my posts, ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE AGAINST ANYONE HERE!

'Kay?

'Kay. :grin: :grin: :grin:

Discover Wisconsin! : Where Cold* is Character


You may send that along to the Wisconsin Tourist Board, with my Minnesotan (Land of 10,000 ice sheets) permission.


*But it's a wet cold.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-04-05 15:56 ]</font>

On 2002-04-05 15:23, Donna Sherman wrote:
As I said in one of my posts, ABSOLUTELY NO OFFENSE AGAINST ANYONE HERE! Besides, anyone who posts at 4T is way cool and way ahead of the game.

'Kay?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Donna Sherman on 2002-04-05 15:26 ]</font>

Why, thank you!

Here is something I found:

LIGHT BULB JOKES AND TYPE

HOW MANY OF YOUR TYPE DOES IT TAKE TO SCREW IN A LIGHT
BULB?

ISTJ: one has worked in the past so one will work now!
ISFJ: only one, me, as long as its okay with everyone
else
INFJ: does the lightbulb really want to be changed?
INTJ: could you please define change? and what exactly
do you mean by a lightbulb?
ISTP: I
ISFP: zero, the ISFP is happy just sitting there and
experiencing the dark
INFP: 2, one to change it and one for support
INTP: Hmm?light..,
illuminance?.I=10.76LT(1/4f)(F/V)^2Hcos40+If
ESTP: none, till I check the breaker
ESFP: who cares, the important thing is that it would
be fun!
ENFP: well let's see, there's one to notice the bulb
is out, and one to make a new
lampshade, and one to read a magazine article on
alternative lighting means,
and one to draw a picture of a candle and???
ENTP: one, but only after tightening, wiggling,
shaking, testing, etc. to make sure its
not something else
ESTJ: the cost/benefit ration would dictate only one
ESFJ: at least 2- let me get on the phone and call
someone to come over?..
ENFJ: but that was my favorite lightbulb!
ENTJ: YOU!! CHANGE THAT DAMNED BULB!!!

On 2002-04-16 10:06, madscientist wrote:
Here is something I found:

LIGHT BULB JOKES AND TYPE

HOW MANY OF YOUR TYPE DOES IT TAKE TO SCREW IN A LIGHT
BULB?

ISTJ: one has worked in the past so one will work now!
ISFJ: only one, me, as long as its okay with everyone
else
INFJ: does the lightbulb really want to be changed?
INTJ: could you please define change? and what exactly
do you mean by a lightbulb?
ISTP: I
ISFP: zero, the ISFP is happy just sitting there and
experiencing the dark
INFP: 2, one to change it and one for support
INTP: Hmm?light..,
illuminance?.I=10.76LT(1/4f)(F/V)^2Hcos40+If
ESTP: none, till I check the breaker
ESFP: who cares, the important thing is that it would
be fun!
ENFP: well let's see, there's one to notice the bulb
is out, and one to make a new
lampshade, and one to read a magazine article on
alternative lighting means,
and one to draw a picture of a candle and???
ENTP: one, but only after tightening, wiggling,
shaking, testing, etc. to make sure its
not something else
ESTJ: the cost/benefit ration would dictate only one
ESFJ: at least 2- let me get on the phone and call
someone to come over?..
ENFJ: but that was my favorite lightbulb!
ENTJ: YOU!! CHANGE THAT DAMNED BULB!!!

I'm *MUCH* more INTJ that ENTJ with regards to that joke

On 2002-04-16 10:06, madscientist wrote:

ENTJ: YOU!! CHANGE THAT DAMNED BULB!!!

Vince, the psycho bugler of the drum corps from hell!

On 2002-04-16 10:06, madscientist wrote:
Here is something I found:

LIGHT BULB JOKES AND TYPE

HOW MANY OF YOUR TYPE DOES IT TAKE TO SCREW IN A LIGHT
BULB?

ISTJ: one has worked in the past so one will work now!

Sheesh. :lol:

Those of you who aren't ISTJ's probably don't know how hard it is sometimes to overcome one's personal conservatism, particularly when one is also a political liberal in many ways.

I mean, it took me five years to realize that I had chosen the wrong career, and another eleven after that to actually make a real change.

Is that the best they could do for ENTP? How about this instead . . .

ENTP: one, no wait, I have a better idea, everyone get over here and build a human pyramid, -- crash --, no let's go with one, yeah, no wait, just thought of something else . . .

On 2002-04-16 14:14, Kiff '61 wrote:

On 2002-04-16 10:06, madscientist wrote:
Here is something I found:

LIGHT BULB JOKES AND TYPE

HOW MANY OF YOUR TYPE DOES IT TAKE TO SCREW IN A LIGHT
BULB?

ISTJ: one has worked in the past so one will work now!

Sheesh. :lol:

Those of you who aren't ISTJ's probably don't know how hard it is sometimes to overcome one's personal conservatism, particularly when one is also a political liberal in many ways.

I mean, it took me five years to realize that I had chosen the wrong career, and another eleven after that to actually make a real change.

I sort of know what you mean, Kiff. For awhile I struggled with being both a conservative AND a liberal. It is hard for someone to understand how i can be a law-and-order, Rudy Giuliani-he's-my-hero right-winger on one hand and a radical integrationist on the other; or that I'm deeply concerned about the environment while fearing just as deeply the radical fringe of the Green Movement; or my perennial lament of lingering Awakening detritus while possessing an above-average (if not particularly active) sex drive.

It took me twenty years to realize that it's OK to be both liberal and conservative at the same time. I suppose what I am (and what you may be) is a true "progressive" -- someone who can be either/or depending what seems to work for a particular issue. Being progressive doesn't make one part of Marc Lamb's "mushy middle", just pragmatic enough to not walk in lock-step to the beat of either party just because society tells you to.

As the archetypal INTJ that I am, I say/ask: "Define conservative. And, liberal about what???"


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2002-04-16 16:15 ]</font>

On 2002-04-16 10:06, madscientist wrote:

INFP: 2, one to change it and one for support

Those are great, Robert, but here's a better one for INFP:

Hello darkness my old friend.

On 2002-04-16 16:08, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

As the archetypal INTJ that I am, I say/ask: "Define conservative. And, liberal about what???"

Did you start out thinking you were an ESTJ or something? Maybe I was initially confused, but all this time, I have been trying to figure out how you and Marc Lamb could possibly be cut from the same cloth. :lol:

On 2002-04-16 16:08, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

I sort of know what you mean, Kiff. For awhile I struggled with being both a conservative AND a liberal. It is hard for someone to understand how i can be a law-and-order, Rudy Giuliani-he's-my-hero right-winger on one hand and a radical integrationist on the other; or that I'm deeply concerned about the environment while fearing just as deeply the radical fringe of the Green Movement; or my perennial lament of lingering Awakening detritus while possessing an above-average (if not particularly active) sex drive.

It took me twenty years to realize that it's OK to be both liberal and conservative at the same time. I suppose what I am (and what you may be) is a true "progressive" -- someone who can be either/or depending what seems to work for a particular issue. Being progressive doesn't make one part of Marc Lamb's "mushy middle", just pragmatic enough to not walk in lock-step to the beat of either party just because society tells you to.

As the archetypal INTJ that I am, I say/ask: "Define conservative. And, liberal about what???"


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2002-04-16 16:15 ]</font>

Yes, Kevin, I think you get it. :smile:

Here's an example. I've been married for almost fourteen years. My husband and I have had our ups and downs, but I feel so strongly about the importance of our marriage that I will fight as hard as I can to save it if it is threatened. Call that "conservative" or "traditional" as you will.

However, I also believe that other people should be able to get out of bad marriages if they need to, and I also believe that gay people should be able to get married if that's what they want. And that last position is pretty "radical."

"Pragmatic" is the right word to describe me, Kevin. I'm interested in what works. And I'm not crazy about the radical Greens, either. :smile: