On 2002-04-17 07:11, Kiff '61 wrote:

On 2002-04-16 16:08, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

I sort of know what you mean, Kiff. For awhile I struggled with being both a conservative AND a liberal. It is hard for someone to understand how i can be a law-and-order, Rudy Giuliani-he's-my-hero right-winger on one hand and a radical integrationist on the other; or that I'm deeply concerned about the environment while fearing just as deeply the radical fringe of the Green Movement; or my perennial lament of lingering Awakening detritus while possessing an above-average (if not particularly active) sex drive.

It took me twenty years to realize that it's OK to be both liberal and conservative at the same time. I suppose what I am (and what you may be) is a true "progressive" -- someone who can be either/or depending what seems to work for a particular issue. Being progressive doesn't make one part of Marc Lamb's "mushy middle", just pragmatic enough to not walk in lock-step to the beat of either party just because society tells you to.

As the archetypal INTJ that I am, I say/ask: "Define conservative. And, liberal about what???"


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2002-04-16 16:15 ]</font>

Yes, Kevin, I think you get it. :smile:

Here's an example. I've been married for almost fourteen years. My husband and I have had our ups and downs, but I feel so strongly about the importance of our marriage that I will fight as hard as I can to save it if it is threatened. Call that "conservative" or "traditional" as you will.

However, I also believe that other people should be able to get out of bad marriages if they need to, and I also believe that gay people should be able to get married if that's what they want. And that last position is pretty "radical."

"Pragmatic" is the right word to describe me, Kevin. I'm interested in what works. And I'm not crazy about the radical Greens, either. :smile:

I can identify, as an ISTJ liberal. I stayed in my marriage long after I should have walked, and it took a Christian marriage-loving doctor to tell me to go (she felt he was "toxic") before I felt sure that leaving wasn't "wrong".

I wonder how "radical" supporting gay marriage is? Don't TJs prefer gays (like everyone else) to be monogamous to the alternative? If you grow up assuming that gayness is a normal variant of human traits (like being left-handed) then supporting gay marriage is quite conservative. :smile:

On 2002-04-17 12:54, Jenny Genser wrote:

I wonder how "radical" supporting gay marriage is? Don't TJs prefer gays (like everyone else) to be monogamous to the alternative? If you grow up assuming that gayness is a normal variant of human traits (like being left-handed) then supporting gay marriage is quite conservative. :smile:

Good point! :grin:

And you've made me realize something else. My real problem with the Sexual Revolution was not "sex" in and of itself. My problem was/is promiscuity as a lifestyle.

On 2002-04-17 13:08, Kiff '61 wrote:
And you've made me realize something else. My real problem with the Sexual Revolution was not "sex" in and of itself. My problem was/is promiscuity as a lifestyle.

Mine too. In the Seventies, sex became a sport, best played with many different players. It was not considered an expression of love or monogamy. Monogamy was seen as hopelessly old-fashioned and if you wanted to have kids with someone you loved, you were positively pathetic and medieval. But if you were promiscuous, you were simply an enlightened person.

Look where that "enlightenment" brought us: AIDS, STDs, broken homes, and abortion on demand.

I always had a problem with this free-for-all philosophy, and could never understand why someone would want to have many different anonymous partners. Sex is and was most fulfilling when shared with someone you care about and who cares for you. One-night-stands never interested me, they just seemed sordid and boring. I guess for a Joneser girl, I was pretty old when I lost my virginity (age 19!).

I have nothing against homosexuality either. I think much of the right's objection to gays, especially gay men, is not so much due to homosexuality per se, but by the reputation gay men have of being promiscuous.

_________________
Scars are tattoos with better stories.
--Toyota ad

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Susan Brombacher on 2002-04-17 18:18 ]</font>

The dating game for an INTP seems to be deceptively simple.

Many of us already figure that we are never going to get any, so why waste time trying?

And if we DO find someone who likes us, we will wonder, "What could she possibly see in me?" while trying to contemplate whether or not such a relationship should be pursued.

The love life of an INTP (that is, if by some miracle, the INTP has one) is paradoxal. The INTP wants to analyze the relationship from a detached vantage-point while at the same time fully participating. I have not yet solved this one.

Now that we are entering 4T, I know that it will be utterly impossible to have a love life. :lol:

_________________
Robert Reed III (1982)
"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings." -- Heinrich Heine
"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren and to do good is my religion."-Thomas Paine


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: madscientist on 2002-04-18 11:44 ]</font>

Speaking of love life, there is a theory that opposites attract. For the other Jane Austen fans on the board, recall the INTP/ESFJ marriage of Mr. and Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice. Or the sparks between witty ENTP Elizabeth and aloof INTJ Darcy. What about the sweetly gushy romance between ISFJ Jane and ESFP Bingley? There was also the scandalous affair between ESFP hedonist Lydia and ESTP scoundrel Wickham. Which pairing works best? (That's my typing at work -- you may type them differently.)

What types go best together?

To start, I'm an NTP married to an STJ (neither of us can figure out whether we are introverts or extraverts). This seems to work fine. Past romances have always been with STJs or NTJs, but close friends of both genders all turn out to be NTPs or NFPs.

What's your experience, both with friends and lovers?



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neisha '67 on 2002-04-18 21:53 ]</font>

I'm INFJ, married to E/ISTJ. My husband is E at work & I at home. We are very definitely opposites in a lot of ways, quite a few which weren't apparent until we became parents.

I can't really say much about past relationships, other than that most of them were dysfunctional. :lol:

That's so interesting about your husband, Sherry. You know my husband and I have also been thinking that we're Es at work and Is at home.

Neisha, no, I didn't know that. Hmm! This gets us into the area of whether Type changes in different situations, or whether we put on a persona ("a face that we keep in a jar by the door," so to speak) crafted for a situation, but underneath are the same Type as always. Are either of you strongly E or I, or are your scores roughly equal? I think that my husband has said that his E & I are about equal, tending slightly to the I side.

_________________
"The rich are very different from you and me." --F. Scott Fitzgerald
"Yes, they have more money." --Ernest Hemingway

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sherry63 on 2002-04-18 22:15 ]</font>

We're both almost 50/50 E/I and go back and forth, depending on our mood, the situation, whatever. We're also both about 55/45 J/P. He's slightly more J and I'm slightly more P.

On 2002-04-18 16:58, Neisha '67 wrote:
Speaking of love life, there is a theory that opposites attract. For the other Jane Austen fans on the board, recall the INTP/ESFJ marriage of Mr. and Mrs. Bennett in Pride and Prejudice. Or the sparks between witty ENTP Elizabeth and aloof INTJ Darcy. What about the sweetly gushy romance between ISFJ Jane and ESFP Bingley? There was also the scandalous affair between ESFP hedonist Lydia and ESTP scoundrel Wickham. Which pairing works best? (That's my typing at work -- you may type them differently.)

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neisha '67 on 2002-04-18 21:53 ]</font>

Not to mention the practical ISTJ Charlotte and her toadying husband the Reverend Collins!

I'm not convinced that Elizabeth Bennett is an "E". She had a very rich inner imagination and was quite content to go walking through hill and dale without regard to what others thought about her. Sounds like an "I" to me. A social "I" to be sure, someone who enjoys conversations and good company, but also someone who is perfectly happy reading a book.

_________________
Why does it have to take a disaster to acknowledge the beauty of being alive? -- Maharaji

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-04-19 11:08 ]</font>

Yeah, I thought about that too, but I think most NTs are that way because they need space either to think, because they are Ti (NTP) or make internal connections, because they are Ni (NTJ).

I pegged Elizabeth as E because of that conversation she has with Darcy, in Lady Catherine Deburgh's parlor (and Lady Catherine is an ENTJ or ESTJ to be sure). Elizabeth is playing the piano and telling Colonel Fitzwilliam about Darcy's antisocial behavior at Netherfield. Darcy says he isn't social because he just doesn't have those graces and doesn't want to look like an idiot. She says that she doesn't play the piano as well as she likes, but that doesn't stop her from playing in front of others. I think if she were an I she wouldn't play in front of others unless she could do so perfectly. Now I know why Jane Austen is called the inventor of the "psychological novel."

I thought of ISTJ Charlotte in the middle of the night and said to myself, d'oh, I forgot to mention her but either Jenny or Kiff will bring her up! Mr. Collins *has* to be an ENFP!

Have you seen the six-hour BBC/A&E special? I own it and have watched it so many times that even my poor husband got hooked!

On 2002-04-19 11:19, Neisha '67 wrote:
I pegged Elizabeth as E because of that conversation she has with Darcy, in Lady Catherine Deburgh's parlor (and Lady Catherine is an ENTJ or ESTJ to be sure). Elizabeth is playing the piano and telling Colonel Fitzwilliam about Darcy's antisocial behavior at Netherfield. Darcy says he isn't social because he just doesn't have those graces and doesn't want to look like an idiot. She says that she doesn't play the piano as well as she likes, but that doesn't stop her from playing in front of others. I think if she were an I she wouldn't play in front of others unless she could do so perfectly.

Nah, being a perfectionist would be an "ISTJ" trait, not "INTJ". Aren't the SJ's the perfectionists? Mine isn't quite as bad, since my "ST" is borderline.

Yes, I did watch the A&E series. I also adore the 1984 BBC version. Try renting it sometime if you haven't seen it.

I may actually own the 1984 version. My mother-in-law is another huge Austen fan. So, my father-in-law buys us these videos for Christmas. I love the book so much that I have always been disappointed with movie versions except for the A&E miniseries. Other versions portrayed the story as a mushy romance, rather than a biting satire, which is what it really is. But, on your recommendation I will watch the 1984 version if I have it!

On 2002-04-18 11:34, madscientist wrote:
The dating game for an INTP seems to be deceptively simple.

Many of us already figure that we are never going to get any, so why waste time trying?

And if we DO find someone who likes us, we will wonder, "What could she possibly see in me?" while trying to contemplate whether or not such a relationship should be pursued.

The love life of an INTP (that is, if by some miracle, the INTP has one) is paradoxal. The INTP wants to analyze the relationship from a detached vantage-point while at the same time fully participating. I have not yet solved this one.

I had to laugh at this, Robert. See, I have radar when it comes to INTx men. No matter where I have been, whether it's been school, college, or any of my jobs, I find you guys. They've all been my best friends, and I married one to boot. :smile:

One piece of advice from a Sensor: Relationships don't need to be solved. Experience them! Enjoy them! :wink:

On 2002-04-19 11:19, Neisha '67 wrote:
Yeah, I thought about that too, but I think most NTs are that way because they need space either to think, because they are Ti (NTP) or make internal connections, because they are Ni (NTJ).

I pegged Elizabeth as E because of that conversation she has with Darcy, in Lady Catherine Deburgh's parlor (and Lady Catherine is an ENTJ or ESTJ to be sure). Elizabeth is playing the piano and telling Colonel Fitzwilliam about Darcy's antisocial behavior at Netherfield. Darcy says he isn't social because he just doesn't have those graces and doesn't want to look like an idiot. She says that she doesn't play the piano as well as she likes, but that doesn't stop her from playing in front of others. I think if she were an I she wouldn't play in front of others unless she could do so perfectly. Now I know why Jane Austen is called the inventor of the "psychological novel."

I thought of ISTJ Charlotte in the middle of the night and said to myself, d'oh, I forgot to mention her but either Jenny or Kiff will bring her up! Mr. Collins *has* to be an ENFP!

Have you seen the six-hour BBC/A&E special? I own it and have watched it so many times that even my poor husband got hooked!

:lol:

There is nothing more klatschy than discussing Jane Austen! :grin:

I had never thought of typing the characters in Pride and Prejudice but I think you did it nicely, Neisha.

Certainly Darcy is an I. He is one of my favorite male characters in all of fiction.

Charlotte an ISTJ? Undoubtedly. Poor girl. :smile:

I, too, love the A&E production. It was very true to the book, and Colin Firth is absolutely a stud muffin! :grin:

OK ladies, let's really klatch. Kiff, have you seen Brigid Jones' Diary where Colin Firth plays Mark Darcy who is really modelled after Mr. Darcy (although Brigid is no Elizabeth Bennett and frankly, Mark Darcy is no Fitzwilliam Darcy). As they say in Britain, absolutely brilliant! In the book, Brigid and her gal pals drink a lot of wine and pause Pride and Prejudice on that scene where Colin Firth takes off his shirt and plunges into the pond (causing my husband to ask -- was this part in the book?). OK, so A&E took a few teensy liberties with the original 18th century text.

On 2002-04-19 17:37, Neisha '67 wrote:
OK ladies, let's really klatch. Kiff, have you seen Brigid Jones' Diary where Colin Firth plays Mark Darcy who is really modelled after Mr. Darcy (although Brigid is no Elizabeth Bennett and frankly, Mark Darcy is no Fitzwilliam Darcy). As they say in Britain, absolutely brilliant! In the book, Brigid and her gal pals drink a lot of wine and pause Pride and Prejudice on that scene where Colin Firth takes off his shirt and plunges into the pond (causing my husband to ask -- was this part in the book?). OK, so A&E took a few teensy liberties with the original 18th century text.

I haven't seen Bridget Jones's Diary yet, but I may have to now! :lol:

True story -- scene from a city park, April 20, 2002. Two ten-year-old girls are pushing large rubber balls in baby swings. One of them has a ball that is sky blue, the other has a ball with eagles on it. Which girl will grow up to be an accountant and which will grow up to be a playwright?

Girl 1 (with the sky blue ball): My ball is called "animal ball" because all the animals of the world are on it, it's a sea of animals and all the animals are in the sea.

Girl 2 (with the eagle ball): All the animals? What about the animals who can't swim?

Girl 1: (sighs heavily) It's not really a sea, it's ocean, and land, and desert, and rainforest, and wetlands, and grass lands, and all the animals of the world are on it.

Girl 2: What about humans, are there humans on it too?

Girl 1: (warming up a bit) Yeah there are humans, but they are in the whale's mouth and they are waiting to be found so Pinocchio can become a real boy!

Girl 2: Nice imagination. Now you've really gone mental.

Girl 1: Oh yeah, well what's your ball called?

Girl 2: (looks at her ball and thinks a moment as if considering her ball for the first time) Eagle-eye!


My kid was in the third swing and I chuckled about this all day yesterday.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neisha '67 on 2002-04-21 14:08 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Neisha '67 on 2002-04-22 16:15 ]</font>

I would guess that "animal ball" girl is an iNtuitive, most like an NF "Idealist." The other is probably a Sensor, perhaps combined with the Thinking function.

On 2002-04-19 15:12, Kiff '61 wrote:

I had to laugh at this, Robert. See, I have radar when it comes to INTx men. No matter where I have been, whether it's been school, college, or any of my jobs, I find you guys. They've all been my best friends, and I married one to boot. :smile:

One piece of advice from a Sensor: Relationships don't need to be solved. Experience them! Enjoy them! :wink:

Interesting. How do you find a population group that makes up 2% of the population?

On 2002-04-22 10:34, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-19 15:12, Kiff '61 wrote:

I had to laugh at this, Robert. See, I have radar when it comes to INTx men. No matter where I have been, whether it's been school, college, or any of my jobs, I find you guys. They've all been my best friends, and I married one to boot. :smile:

One piece of advice from a Sensor: Relationships don't need to be solved. Experience them! Enjoy them! :wink:

Interesting. How do you find a population group that makes up 2% of the population?

For me, it was quite simple in the beginning: Dungeons & Dragons. Once I fell into it, there was no getting away from the INTx men (there were a couple of women in my group, too, but it was almost exclusively guys who were the regular players).

And then after I quit playing, I discovered that I enjoyed being around INTx guys for other reasons; namely, stimulating conversations that were more thought-provoking than anything I could find elsewhere. And in me, these guys found a willing listener, and someone who often questioned their ideas in light of "real-world" experiences I'd had.

The pattern continues here. :grin:

On 2002-04-22 11:24, Kiff '61 wrote:

For me, it was quite simple in the beginning: Dungeons & Dragons.

Once I fell into it, there was no getting away from the INTx men (there were a couple of women in my group, too, but it was almost exclusively guys who were the regular players).

Of course! (kicks self in head)

And then after I quit playing, I discovered that I enjoyed being around INTx guys for other reasons; namely, stimulating conversations that were more thought-provoking than anything I could find elsewhere. And in me, these guys found a willing listener, and someone who often questioned their ideas in light of "real-world" experiences I'd had.

The pattern continues here. :grin:

Again, fascinating.

Perhaps, I should make a list of where and how to meet NTs.

I'll start a prelim one here.

<hr>

If you see anyone playing "Magic: The Gathering", which is a card game, then you have located some NTs.

Go to CompUSA.

Buy Linux, and ask someone to help you install it, or ask them for help using it.

Hang out at 4T.com :smile:

Join the chess (I came in second place at my HS) or computer clubs.

Learn how to code.

If you find anyone with an intense dislike of Tupperware, then he/she is likely an INTP.

If you see someone just laugh for no apparent reason (laughing at their own thoughts), then you've likely seen an INTP.

Go to Star Trek discussion forums, or go to a Star Trek convention, in which 75% of the participants are likely to be INTPs, 24% are the other NTs, and the remaining 1% is the rest of the types.

Go to a LAN Party.

Play 3D shooters such as Quake 3, Counter Strike, Return to Wolfenstein, and Unreal Tournament and strategy games like Civilization 3 and Age of Empires 3, and RPGs like Baulder's Gate and Everquest online.

You can find hardcore NTs at your local Unix or Linux User Groups.

Take a trip to Silicon Valley and/or Cambridge.

:lol: :lol:

Okay, I'll confess. My husband used to work for TSR, the company that started the whole Dungeons & Dragons phenomenon. And he still does freelance work for Wizards of the Coast, who started "Magic: the Gathering."

I used to play-test games way back in the early 80's, and I got to know quite a few people in the RPG industry, which is loaded with INTJ's and INTP's, at least on the creative side.

On 2002-04-22 12:04, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-22 11:24, Kiff '61 wrote:

For me, it was quite simple in the beginning: Dungeons & Dragons.

Once I fell into it, there was no getting away from the INTx men (there were a couple of women in my group, too, but it was almost exclusively guys who were the regular players).

Of course! (kicks self in head)

And then after I quit playing, I discovered that I enjoyed being around INTx guys for other reasons; namely, stimulating conversations that were more thought-provoking than anything I could find elsewhere. And in me, these guys found a willing listener, and someone who often questioned their ideas in light of "real-world" experiences I'd had.

The pattern continues here. :grin:

Again, fascinating.

Perhaps, I should make a list of where and how to meet NTs.

I'll start a prelim one here.

<hr>

If you see anyone playing "Magic: The Gathering", which is a card game, then you have located some NTs.

Go to CompUSA.

Buy Linux, and ask someone to help you install it, or ask them for help using it.

Hang out at 4T.com :smile:

Join the chess (I came in second place at my HS) or computer clubs.

Learn how to code.

If you find anyone with an intense dislike of Tupperware, then he/she is likely an INTP.

If you see someone just laugh for no apparent reason (laughing at their own thoughts), then you've likely seen an INTP.

Go to Star Trek discussion forums, or go to a Star Trek convention, in which 75% of the participants are likely to be INTPs, 24% are the other NTs, and the remaining 1% is the rest of the types.

Go to a LAN Party.

Play 3D shooters such as Quake 3, Counter Strike, Return to Wolfenstein, and Unreal Tournament and strategy games like Civilization 3 and Age of Empires 3, and RPGs like Baulder's Gate and Everquest online.

You can find hardcore NTs at your local Unix or Linux User Groups.

Take a trip to Silicon Valley and/or Cambridge.

Here's a question for all you MBTIers to ponder. Is there something about being introverted and this "quote" business? I mean, looking at my post here, it really seems silly (to me at least) that all this chatter is repeated so ad infinitum: On blah blah, madscientist wrote:

On blah blah, Kiff '61 wrote:.... On blah blah, madscientist wrote:....

Is the need to be thoroughly understood, or perhaps just the way this board is set up? I've seen these quotes go on and on and on, then end with a one line comment. Sometimes it gets to be so ridiculous I bust out laughing, but mostly its just annoying.

Anyway. does being introverted have anything to do with it?

On 2002-04-22 12:49, Marc Lamb wrote:

On 2002-04-22 12:04, madscientist wrote:

On 2002-04-22 11:24, Kiff '61 wrote:

For me, it was quite simple in the beginning: Dungeons & Dragons.

Once I fell into it, there was no getting away from the INTx men (there were a couple of women in my group, too, but it was almost exclusively guys who were the regular players).

Of course! (kicks self in head)

And then after I quit playing, I discovered that I enjoyed being around INTx guys for other reasons; namely, stimulating conversations that were more thought-provoking than anything I could find elsewhere. And in me, these guys found a willing listener, and someone who often questioned their ideas in light of "real-world" experiences I'd had.

The pattern continues here. :grin:

Again, fascinating.

Perhaps, I should make a list of where and how to meet NTs.

I'll start a prelim one here.

<hr>

If you see anyone playing "Magic: The Gathering", which is a card game, then you have located some NTs.

Go to CompUSA.

Buy Linux, and ask someone to help you install it, or ask them for help using it.

Hang out at 4T.com :smile:

Join the chess (I came in second place at my HS) or computer clubs.

Learn how to code.

If you find anyone with an intense dislike of Tupperware, then he/she is likely an INTP.

If you see someone just laugh for no apparent reason (laughing at their own thoughts), then you've likely seen an INTP.

Go to Star Trek discussion forums, or go to a Star Trek convention, in which 75% of the participants are likely to be INTPs, 24% are the other NTs, and the remaining 1% is the rest of the types.

Go to a LAN Party.

Play 3D shooters such as Quake 3, Counter Strike, Return to Wolfenstein, and Unreal Tournament and strategy games like Civilization 3 and Age of Empires 3, and RPGs like Baulder's Gate and Everquest online.

You can find hardcore NTs at your local Unix or Linux User Groups.

Take a trip to Silicon Valley and/or Cambridge.

Here's a question for all you MBTIers to ponder. Is there something about being introverted and this "quote" business? I mean, looking at my post here, it really seems silly (to me at least) that all this chatter is repeated so ad infinitum: On blah blah, madscientist wrote:

On blah blah, Kiff '61 wrote:.... On blah blah, madscientist wrote:....

Is the need to be thoroughly understood, or perhaps just the way this board is set up? I've seen these quotes go on and on and on, then end with a one line comment. Sometimes it gets to be so ridiculous I bust out laughing, but mostly its just annoying.

Anyway. does being introverted have anything to do with it?

No. :wink: :lol: