Originally Posted by Heliotrope

However, I did notice that while I have Spinoza in #1 place, Mitch has Spinoza in LAST place.

It does not strike me as a glaring inconsistency. Spinoza certainly held that we cannot know reality through the senses; it exists only in the mind. So you might say that Spinoza was somewhere along the road between objective reality and the subjective nothingness of existentialism.

Can one be an existentialist and still believe in God?

Kierkegaard.

And how would this differ from the Cynics?

It seems to me that the Cynics challenged all social norms, standards, etc. (sounds like an INFP!). But their ideal was to live like a dog (and "Cynic" derives from the word for dog). I guess they probably differ from existentialists in that they at least agreed upon a common role model.

INTP

1. Mill (100%)
2. Aquinas (90%)
3. Rand (85%)
4. Kant (78%)
5. Epicureans (76%)
6. Bentham (73%)
7. Aristotle (70%)
8. Plato (63%)
9. Augustine (61%)
10. Spinoza (57%)
11. Stoics (56%)
12. Prescriptivism (55%)
13. Sartre (52%)
14. Ockham (39%)
15. Cynics (35%)
16. Nietzsche (27%)
17. Hobbes (25%)
18. Noddings (24%)
19. Hume (18%)

I can say that I am surprised that Nietzche gained a very low score. I heavily agree with his philosophy. I agree with Rand's rationalism, even though I am not as militant as she is. However, I do not agree with objectivism, as I believe that altruism is good. I agree with most of Hume's philosophy. Where I disagree is that I think that reason is very good for moral judgements. Besides, the Age of Enlightenment was born out of reason. I would place Ockham at the very bottom. I would not put Mill at the top. I agree with much of Plato. I do disagree with there only being one model for being a just person, and I am against the theory of societal order that he describes in "The Republic". Although I hold intellectualism in VERY high regards, I am heavily against an aristocracy of intellects ruling society. Here, I agree with Mill that man should strive for liberty.

1. Aristotelian
2. Baconian
3. Epicurean
4. Kantian
5. Ockamian
6. Newtonian
7. Randian
8. Stoic/Aurelian
9. Thomist
10. Lockean
11. Humean
12. Platonic/Socratic
13. Augustinian

Originally Posted by madscientist

INTP

1. Mill (100%)
2. Aquinas (90%)
3. Rand (85%)
4. Kant (78%)
5. Epicureans (76%)
6. Bentham (73%)
7. Aristotle (70%)
8. Plato (63%)
9. Augustine (61%)
10. Spinoza (57%)
11. Stoics (56%)
12. Prescriptivism (55%)
13. Sartre (52%)
14. Ockham (39%)
15. Cynics (35%)
16. Nietzsche (27%)
17. Hobbes (25%)
18. Noddings (24%)
19. Hume (18%)

I can say that I am surprised that Nietzche gained a very low score. I heavily agree with his philosophy.

Even your Sartre is fairly weak. It is not a strong existentialist showing here. If you agree that heavily with Nietzsche, I wonder what this test is not capturing about your belief? And do you not see Nietzsche as scorning the Christian and democratic ideas of the equal worth of men? If you believe that all men are created equal, then this could be the source of your weak showing. Although I cannot remember if any questions dealt with this directly or indirectly.

Say, was Nietzsche a Hero? Born in 1844. I wonder if generational influence is mixing with a not necessarily accomodating temperament?

I agree with Rand's rationalism, even though I am not as militant as she is. However, I do not agree with objectivism, as I believe that altruism is good.

I agree with you. But I still would have thought that I would have scored her higher than you. Could be an artifact of the test.

I would place Ockham at the very bottom.

What is probably happening is that the test is assigning equal weight to twelve(?) points which were assessed in the questioning. Ockham caught my eye too because he was rated so highly for me on the second test (the Philotype one). But it is probably a matter of agreeing on a number of points yet disagreeing as to emphasis or priorities. It may be that you really get into a certain point or points of Nietzsche, for example, but overall you disagree or at least do not agree completely with him on most points. The test is blind so it does not capture your "enthusiasm" for the handful of points on which you do agree with him. So we get an order different than the one you would assign independently.

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Even your Sartre is fairly weak. It is not a strong existentialist showing here. If you agree that heavily with Nietzsche, I wonder what this test is not capturing about your belief? And do you not see Nietzsche as scorning the Christian and democratic ideas of the equal worth of men? If you believe that all men are created equal, then this could be the source of your weak showing. Although I cannot remember if any questions dealt with this directly or indirectly.

I definitely believe in the equality of man. Perhaps, I should go more in depth in his philosophy rather than just reading the 5 lines the site provides.

Say, was Nietzsche a Hero? Born in 1844. I wonder if generational influence is mixing with a not necessarily accomodating temperament?

I would need to do research on him.

What is probably happening is that the test is assigning equal weight to twelve(?) points which were assessed in the questioning. Ockham caught my eye too because he was rated so highly for me on the second test (the Philotype one). But it is probably a matter of agreeing on a number of points yet disagreeing as to emphasis or priorities. It may be that you really get into a certain point or points of Nietzsche, for example, but overall you disagree or at least do not agree completely with him on most points. The test is blind so it does not capture your "enthusiasm" for the handful of points on which you do agree with him. So we get an order different than the one you would assign independently.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Here is perhaps a better philosophy test which Tristan once linked on another thread, if I am not mistaken. Even if there are no generational correlations, there may be type correlations. If you wish to take it, post your MBTI type along with your scores. Maybe Robert will be able discern a pattern.

http://www.selectsmart.com/PHILOSOPHY

My MBTI type is INTJ and here are my results from the test.


Your Results:

1. Sartre (100%) Click here for info
2. Mill (90%) Click here for info
3. Bentham (84%) Click here for info
4. Rand (76%) Click here for info
5. Hobbes (72%) Click here for info
6. Aquinas (68%) Click here for info
7. Cynics (68%) Click here for info
8. Kant (61%) Click here for info
9. Epicureans (55%) Click here for info
10. Prescriptivism (52%) Click here for info
11. Hume (51%) Click here for info
12. Aristotle (50%) Click here for info
13. Nietzsche (43%) Click here for info
14. Noddings (38%) Click here for info
15. Plato (37%) Click here for info
16. Stoics (37%) Click here for info
17. Ockham (31%) Click here for info
18. Spinoza (31%) Click here for info
19. Augustine (22%) Click here for info

Originally Posted by Stonewall Patton

Say, was Nietzsche a Hero? Born in 1844. I wonder if generational influence is mixing with a not necessarily accomodating temperament?

Given the lineup of 19th century European (especially German generations) Nietzsche would be a Hero.

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

ISTJ

1. Epicurean
2. Stoic/Aurelian
3. Thomist
4. Baconian
5. Lockean
6. Aristotelian
7. Newtonian
8. Humean
9. Ockamian
10. Platonic/Socratic
11. Augustinian
12. Randian
13. Kantian

I can't see any correlation at all to the results I got on the earlier test. :-?

This test, judging by the nature of the questions, attempts to compare you personally to the philosophers rather than compare your beliefs. I would think that this test correlates more strongly with temperament. The first deals with actual beliefs so it demonstrates people of different temperaments coming to similar beliefs, presumably by different means.

Tristan wrote:

Stonewall Patton wrote:

Say, was Nietzsche a Hero? Born in 1844. I wonder if generational influence is mixing with a not necessarily accomodating temperament?

Given the lineup of 19th century European (especially German generations) Nietzsche would be a Hero.

I'd agree that Nietzsche almost had to be born during a Hero cohort, but I feel there is considerable evidence he was a prophet at heart. (for better or worse)

As is well known, Nietzsche was raised in a household of women. His father died when he was very young. His mother and sisters doted on him. It's not hard to understand why. He was a smart little devil when he was little. I have read a few things written when he was a child. He had a command of the German language as a child that rivaled the vast majority of adults living today. His family dynamics reminds me of that of the typical Boomer childhood: treated well, almost spoilt, given a fair amount
of freedom, and living in an intellectually shallow environment (compared with his raw natural intelligence).

The tenor in his writings is prophet like. The title of his (I think overhyped) magnum opus is of course Thus Spake Zarathustra...and who was Zarathustra? A prophet of course. Some of Nietzsche's most famous quotes are almost biblical in tone:

Selections from 'The Gay Science'

"I greet all the signs indicating that a more manly and warlike age is commencing, which will, above all, bring heroism again into honor! For it has to prepare the way for a yet higher age, and gather the force which the latter will one day require-the age which will carry heroism into knowledge, and wage war for the sake of ideas and their consequences."

"We owe it to Napoleon (and not by any means to the French Revolution, which aimed at the 'brotherhood' of nations and a blooming universal exchange of hearts) that we now confront a succession of a few warlike centuries that have no parallel in history; in short, that we have entered the classical age of war"

But that said, I think reading Nietzsche is like reading the Bible...unless you are careful, and look at the entire work and within yourself and your prejudices, you get from it want you want to hear. Nietzsche's philosophy was hacked to death by his sister and by the Nazi's. He is related with Marilyn Manson or atheistic existentialists (more accurate) and Christian process theology (maybe more accurate still). I had a philosophy professor in college teach that Nietzsche was the philosophy of Darwinism. (I almost jumped out of my seat in disgust that week. I ended up getting a C in his course).

All in all I don't think Nietzsche had a coherent philosophy that one can look to and say, "I believe that too". Nietzsche's philosophy is like when you are that 15 or 16 year old young man, raging with hormones, and for the first time you are with that really cute girl with all the curves you have wanted to kiss what seems like ages (even though it was only two weeks ago you caught her name).

Just about any philosopher on the list you could break down and say, yeah I agree with that, no I don't buy that. (Unless you include my reaction to Immanuel Kant which is, what the hell is he talking about? From that perspective Kant and Stonewall Patton having nothing in common, Patton's posts are comprehensible). When one reads Nietzsche you just say to yourself, huh wow, that's something. Much of what Nietzsche says is pro-individual and anti-state, he uses polemics against Christianity and then seems to value Jesus, saints and saintly thinkers. There are a few passages that give his thought an environmentalist caste, he has some consonance with Thoreau and Emerson.

I think much of what he has to say about the past is garbage from a factual point of view. More importantly is what it says about us, in our day and time. Nietzsche knows damn well nothing about ancient China, India or the way say the Mayas percieved the world. Reading the Birth of Tragedy, little he writes about the ancient greeks appears realistic. He is speaking to us, about us...everything else you just take with a grain of salt. This even includes our founding fathers of our nation, what does 18th rationalism have to do with wars of genocide, Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles, the rise of corporate global fascism? From my perspective unfortunately very little. But Nietzsche doesn't seem far removed from it. Nietzsche was writing to the 20th and 21st centuries. Probably not to the 22nd though. By then, I think, all the questions will have been answered and if not answered, by then our descendants will simply forget to ask them. So from a certain perspective its a good thing we all have different ways of looking at the world on this board because someday we will all agree again in an age of faith.

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

INTP

1.Aquinas 1.Epicurean?
2.Aristotle 2.Baconian
3.Augustine 3.Aristotelean??
4.Bentham 4.Lockean
5.Cynics ?? 5.Stoic/Aurelian
6.Epicureans ?? 6.Thomist
7.Hobbes ?? 7.Newtonian
8.Hume ? 8.Ockamian?
9.Kant ? 9.Humean
10.Mill 10.Platonic/Socratic
11.Nietzsche ? 11.Randian
12.Noddings 12.Augustinian
13.Ockham 13. Kantian
14.Plato
15.Prescriptivism ?
16.Rand
17.Sartre
18.Spinoza ??
19.Stoics ??

Here is that one which may interest Susan since it is heavy on existentialism. However I am not sure that it tells us anything.


http://www.selectsmart.com/FREE/sele...t=Philosophers




INTP


#1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas
#2 Immanuel Kant
#3 John Stuart Mill
#4 Soren Kierkegaard
#5 Arthur Schopenhauer
#6 Jean-Paul Sartre
#7 Lao Tze
#8 Simone de Beauvoir
#9 You're not a philosopher!
#10 W.F. Nietzsche

INFP

#1 W.F. Nietzsche
#2 Jean-Paul Sartre
#3 Simone de Beauvoir
#4 Arthur Schopenhauer
#5 John Stuart Mill
#6 Soren Kierkegaard
#7 Lao Tze
#8 You're not a philosopher!
#9 Immanuel Kant
#10 St. Augustine/ Aquinas

Well it's obvious that I have a one track mind. Even more strange than Heliotrope's and I's reversal of Spinoza in rank previously, is that Stonewall and I apparently have diametrically opposed worldviews. However in reality I completely agree with Stonewall Patton's opinions of our commander-in-chief. Mr. Bush must be a very bad man indeed.

Mitch

INTP

• 1.Aquinas 1.Epicurean? #1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas
  
  2.Aristotle 2.Baconian #2 Immanuel Kant
  
  3.Augustine 3.Aristotelean?? #3 Jean-Paul Sartre
  
  4.Bentham 4.Lockean #4 Soren Kierkegaard
  
  5.Cynics ?? 5.Stoic/Aurelian #5 Arthur Schopenhauer
  
  6.Epicureans ?? 6.Thomist #6 John Stuart Mill
  
  7.Hobbes ?? 7.Newtonian #7 Simone de Beauvoir
  
  8.Hume ? 8.Ockamian? #8 Lao Tze
  
  9.Kant ? 9.Humean #9 W.F. Nietzsche
  
  10.Mill 10.Platonic/Socratic #10 You're not a philosopher!
  
  11.Nietzsche ? 11.Randian
  
  12.Noddings 12.Augustinian
  
  13.Ockham 13. Kantian
  
  14.Plato
  
  15.Prescriptivism ?
  
  16.Rand
  
  17.Sartre
  
  18.Spinoza ??
  
  19.Stoics ?

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

INTP

1.Aquinas 1.Epicurean? #1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas
2.Aristotle 2.Baconian #2 Immanuel Kant
3.Augustine 3.Aristotelean?? #3 Jean-Paul Sartre
4.Bentham 4.Lockean #4 Soren Kierkegaard
5.Cynics ?? 5.Stoic/Aurelian #5 Arthur Schopenhauer
6.Epicureans ?? 6.Thomist #6 John Stuart Mill
7.Hobbes ?? 7.Newtonian #7 Simone de Beauvoir
8.Hume ? 8.Ockamian? #8 Lao Tze
9.Kant ? 9.Humean #9 W.F. Nietzsche
10.Mill 10.Platonic/Socratic #10 You're not a philosopher!
11.Nietzsche ? 11.Randian
12.Noddings 12.Augustinian
13.Ockham 13. Kantian
14.Plato
15.Prescriptivism ?
16.Rand
17.Sartre
18.Spinoza ??
19.Stoics ??

Mr. Saari, is that mess formatted in your world? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Actually, it came out remotely formatted as quoted in the reply window here. You probably have the right idea in comparing these side by side. For example, consider that Sartre is 17th out of 19 on the first test and 3rd out of 10 on the third test. Quite a disagreement. Nietzsche is in the middle on the first test (which I would think is odd for you) but dead last on the third test (which is probably more realistic?). Then Kant goes from the middle to the bottom then to near the top as we go across the board. And the Thomist ranking seems inaccurately depressed on the second test with yours and mine and perhaps others. I am not sure that we are getting anything out of this, but I guess it is fun.

I think it is safe to say that Mr. Saari is big on Aquinas and Aristotle. And there does seems to be a strong rationalist presence. What is he consistently low on? Perhaps Rand as well as existentialists. Possibly Plato as well.

I might as well try the Saari cross-comparison. And I went ahead and retook all three in order to eliminate the possible effects of different moods, and there were indeed some small changes. I think I'll skip trying to get these things side by side unless Mr. Saari knows of any easy way to do it.


1. Kant (100%)
2. Prescriptivism (91%)
3. Mill (91%)
4. Augustine (68%)
5. Aquinas (67%)
6. Ockham (61%)
7. Rand (60%)
8. Spinoza (58%)
9. Bentham (55%)
10. Sartre (48%)
11. Epicureans (43%)
12. Plato (41%)
13. Noddings (35%)
14. Aristotle (29%)
15. Stoics (28%)
16. Nietzsche (8%)
17. Hume (4%)
18. Cynics (0%)
19. Hobbes (0%)


#1 Ockamian
#2 Kantian
#3 Aristotelian
#4 Baconian
#5 Randian
#6 Augustinian
#7 Humean
#8 Platonic/Socratic
#9 Epicurean
#10 Stoic/Aurelian
#11 Thomist
#12 Lockean
#13 Newtonian


#1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas
#2 Immanuel Kant
#3 John Stuart Mill
#4 Soren Kierkegaard
#5 Arthur Schopenhauer
#6 Jean-Paul Sartre
#7 Lao Tze
#8 Simone de Beauvoir
#9 You're not a philosopher!
#10 W.F. Nietzsche


I'll hold off and wait and see if it is worth analyzing after it is posted.

#1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas

#2 Immanuel Kant

#3 Soren Kierkegaard

#4 You're not a philosopher!

#5 John Stuart Mill

#6 Jean-Paul Sartre

#7 Lao Tze

#8 Simone de Beauvoir

#9 Arthur Schopenhauer

#10 W.F. Nietzsche


ISTJ

ENFP

#1 St. Augustine/ Aquinas

#2 Immanuel Kant

#3 Soren Kierkegaard

#4 You're not a philosopher!

#5 Jean-Paul Sartre

#6 John Stuart Mill

#7 Simone de Beauvoir

#8 Lao Tze

#9 Arthur Schopenhauer

#10 W.F. Nietzsche

#1 Immanuel Kant
#2 St. Augustine/ Aquinas
#3 John Stuart Mill
#4 Soren Kierkegaard
#5 Jean-Paul Sartre
#6 Simone de Beauvoir
#7 Lao Tze
#8 Arthur Schopenhauer
#9 You're not a philosopher!
#10 W.F. Nietzsche

http://www.planetmonk.com/wilde/happ...ghtingale.html

Was Oscar Wilde the ultimate ENFP?

I suspect that philosophy can indeed be correlated with philosophy and I have been working on this offsite. However I did find some people's type assignments for various philosophers and this may interest people. First is a reference to Jung's stated difference between Te and Ti as judging functions:


http://lilt.ilstu.edu/rcringer/MQM22...nformation.htm

"Jung described Darwin's classification of external factors as the prototype of extroverted thinking and Kant's inner critique of knowledge as the prototype of introverted thinking."


According to Jung, Darwin exemplifies the style of thinking preferred by most xxTJ types while Kant exemplifies the style of thinking preferred by most xxTP types. This distinction would be most obvious where T is dominant as between ExTJ types and IxTP types. Jung described himself as an "Introverted Thinker with Intuition" (or an INTP in MBTI parlance) so was biased accordingly.




Below somebody attempted to assign dominant philosophies to Enneagram types and then proceeded to assign Enneagram and MBTI types to famous philosophers:


http://www.9types.com/wwwboard/messages/20514.html

Different philosophical systems seem to reflect the ways each enneagram type views the world...

One: Platonic Idealism
Two: Communism
Three: Post-Modernism
Four: Existentialism
Five: Logical Positivism
Six: Skepticism
Seven: Epicureanism
Eight: Objectivism
Nine: Stoicism

Types of philosophers
Plato - 1w9 INTJ
Socrates - 6w5 ENTP
Aristotle - 5w6 INTP
St. Thomas Aquinas - 5w6 INTP
Rene Descartes - 5w6 INTP
David Hume - 6w5 INTP
Immanuel Kant - 5w6 INTP
Rousseau - 9w1 INFP
G.W.F. Hegel - 5w6 INTJ
Soren Kierkegaard - 4w5 INFJ
Friedrich Nietzsche - 5w4 INTP
Jean-Paul Sartre - 5w4 INTP
Albert Camus - 4w3 INFJ
Ludwig Wittgenstein - 5w6 INTP


Vince is the Enneagram expert so perhaps he would like to critique these Enneagram assignments. I will critique some of these MBTI assignments:


Plato - 1w9 INTJ - All I can say is that I never felt that I was on precisely the same wavelength as Plato and I am an INTP. I do not see him as an INFP so, assuming that he was an IN, I think it must be either INFJ or INTJ. INTJ is probably the most likely choice and I noted that our Philosophy "Master" Eric Meece has also labelled him as such.

Socrates - 6w5 ENTP - INTP or ENTP. I think it could go either way.

Aristotle - 5w6 INTP - Here is another one with whom I never felt exactly on the same wavelength. His Golden Mean is too moderate and too pragmatic for an INTP, in my opinion. I can much more easily see ENTP here, reinforced by his vast range of interests as opposed to the INTP's limited list of preferred areas of concentration.

St. Thomas Aquinas - 5w6 INTP - I am torn on Aquinas but I can easily see INTP. Would Mr. Saari agree?

Rene Descartes - 5w6 INTP - I more easily see Descartes as an INTJ.

David Hume - 6w5 INTP - I don't know but I do not think that Hume was an INTP. I see him more as an S. I will not try to pin him down any further than that.

Immanuel Kant - 5w6 INTP - Kant, according to Eric Meece, is the archetypal INTP (as Plato is the archetypal INTJ in his opinion) and I have to agree.

Rousseau - 9w1 INFP - Either INTP or INFP. I actually favor INTP but it may be INFP.

G.W.F. Hegel - 5w6 INTJ - INTJ or ENTJ?

Friedrich Nietzsche - 5w4 INTP - I definitely do not see INTP. Either INFP or INTJ (both use Te and Fi in opposite order). His writing seems more INFP but his attitude seems more INTJ. Perhaps if he were an E, it would help bridge the gap? ENFP or ENTJ? I will just stick with xNFP or xNTJ.

Jean-Paul Sartre - 5w4 INTP - I don't see that. Either SFP or NFP.



Any other opinions? Maybe Vince will help us out with those Enneagram assignments.

Eric Meece has not been able to log onto the site since the upgrade but he sent me the following in which he divides a philosophy "wheel" into eight octants and assigns an I temperament to each:


top/INFJ/spiritualist

upper left/INTP/essentialist (though a moderate one, closer to the center)

left/INTJ/mathematical rationalist

lower left/ISTJ/mechanical rationalist

bottom/ISTP/materialist

lower right/ISFJ/empiricist,pragmatist (moderate, close to the center)

right/ISFP/randomist,etc.

upper right/INFP/existentialist

I scored 100% agreement (whatever that means) with Aquinas above in the thread, and I am a 5w6 on the Enneagram, but I'm an ISTJ rather than an INTP (and my MBTI score is consistent no matter which test I use).

Maybe we're evaluating different parts of the human experience here, Stonewall. The SelectSmart philosophy test goes off into theoreticals and what-ifs. Which is fine; that's what philosophy is all about. The MBTI is more down-to-earth and asks the taker to evaluate his/her own behavior as well as preferences and beliefs.

The Enneagram appears to fall somewhere in between.

I guess I'm trying to reconcile the fact that I am the Inspector as well as someone who is also big into existential kinds of stuff. How can a person switch gears like that?

Patton wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eric Meece has not been able to log onto the site since the upgrade

That's a shame, I wondered what happened to him. Is this a technical/computer prob?

I miss Eric, too. :-(

I think he must have a slow dial-up connection or something.

The upgrade was a problem for me too in that I have to use IE now every time I visit the T4T forum. If I use Netscape, I get kicked off constantly and have to log back in several times during the day.

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

I guess I'm trying to reconcile the fact that I am the Inspector as well as someone who is big into existential kinds of stuff as well. How can a person switch gears like that?

I don't think you are switching gears at all. It occurred to me before that xxTJs might take to Existentialism, even if only a minority. The trick is to find a way to represent this.

There would appear to be a strong correlation between Fi and Existentialism (of all the types, INFP and ISFP seem to clearly favor Existentialism). You as an ISTJ use Fi as your tertiary function. So it is still there, just not dominant. It almost seems like a Yin/Yang thing. I am not sure what correlates with Te as directly as Existentialism does with Fi, but it would probably be Rationalism or something close. I do not know if an ISTJ would tend to favor both Rationalism(?) and Existentialism or one or the other. Still working on it. But it really does seem like there is an underlying connection between temperament and philosophy of some sort.