Hey, I'm an ENFP too. 8)Originally Posted by justmom
I started reading this thread way at the beginning. You're all I's.
That makes me the very odd one out, except I am a soul sister with Angeli
ENFP born 1968
maybe that's why I leave for months at a time. The "E" in me needs "real" people, if you'll pardon the expression.
Much madness is divinest sense. -- Emily Dickinson
Alex's classmates sound an awful lot like my eX-wifeSounds very much like my experience in school, except many of those same girls were always mean.
For all of us nerds and INTPs (real people need not read):
The Type correlations as I see them now:
Enneagram and MBTI types:
1 INTJ
2 ISFJ
3 ENFP
4 INFP
5 INTP
6 ISTJ
7 ESFP
8 ESTx
9 ISFP
Enneagram and Planets
1 Mercury
2 Moon
3 Sun
4 Neptune
5 Uranus
6 Saturn
7 Jupiter
8 Mars
9 Venus
Planets and Types
Sun E/EN/ENJ
Moon F/SFJ
Mercury T/ITJ/NTP
Venus SFP
Mars ET
Jupiter ENF/ESF
Saturn ST
Uranus NT
Neptune INF
Pluto INFJ
MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun/Saturn Aries/Leo/Capricorn
ENFJ 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ISTP 6 Saturn/Venus Taurus/Libra
ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus
ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
ISFJ 2 Moon Cancer
ESTP 8 Mars/Saturn Aries
ESFP 7 Jupiter/Venus Sagittarius/Pisces
ESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
T4T archetypes
Hero/Civic ENTJ 1/3 (also 8 Capricorn)
Artist/Adaptive ISFP 9/2/7 Libra
Prophet/Idealist INFJ 4/5 Cancer
Nomad/Reactive ESTP 6/8 Aries
Hero/King/Teacher/J
Artist/Lover/Healer/P
Prophet/Priest-Magician/Visionary/I
Nomad/Warrior/E
Fire/N/NF/Prophet
Earth/S/ST/Nomad
Air/T/NT/Hero
Water/F/SF/Artist
Types and philosophy wheel:
Hero/rational order/ENTJ
Artist/experiential flux/ISFP
Prophet/spiritualist/INFJ
Nomad/materialist/ESTP
Chakra system and world tree
Chakras and Planets/Signs: traditional rulers, Enneagram
Chakra One-base of spine-survival Saturn 6
Chakra Two-sexual centers-pleasure Jupiter 7
Chakra Three-solar plexus-power Mars 8
Chakra Four-heart-love Venus 9
Chakra Five-throat-expression Mercury 1
Chakra Six-third Eye-intuitive vision Moon 2, 4
Chakra Seven-crown-Sun 3, 5
Alternate Chakra rulers, and links to Sephiroth of the Kaballah
Ch1 Earth/Pluto S.10-world/S.9-foundation
Ch2 Venus and Mars S.8-glory
Ch3 Sun S.7-victory
Ch4 Moon S.6-beauty
Ch5 Jupiter S.4-mercy
Saturn S.5-justice
Ch6 Neptune - S.3-understanding
Ch7 Uranus - S.2-wisdom
chakras above head - Pluto, etc. - S.1-crown
Enneagram, Planets, Signs/Seasons, Kaballah, and Kundalini Chakras
The signs of the zodiac represent the Sun's seasonal movement between the Tropic of Cancer (Summer in northern hemisphere) and the Tropic of Capricorn (Winter in northern hemisphere)
6 Saturn Ch 1 Aquarius/Capricorn (Winter, 4th Turning)
7 Jupiter Ch 2 Pisces/Sagittarius
8 Mars Ch 3 Aries/Scorpio (Sunrise, 1st Turning)
9 Venus Ch 4 Taurus/Libra (Sunset, 3rd Turning)
1 Mercury Ch 5 Gemini/Virgo
2,4 Moon Ch 6 Cancer (Summer, 2nd Turning)
3,5 Sun Ch 7 Leo (Summer, 2nd Turning)
North/South Axis Winter/Summer Cancer/Capricorn
(this is the polar axis of the world tree and caduseus symbol)
It is the axis of communion, grounding, and energy sources (E/I);
aka the tree of life; the backbone of the Chakras;
Up and down axis on philosophy wheel.
Alan Watts: "the most basic metaphysical principle is that for every inside there's an outside, and vice versa"
Ambiguity is built in to this axis-- for example:
Spiritualist/Introversion or narcisism = Summer (Cancer)
Materialist/Extraversion = Winter (Capricorn)
East/West Axis Sunrise/Sunset Aries/Libra
(this is the two serpents of the world tree and caduseus, one yang (Sun, left brained) and one yin (Moon, right brained).
(Note correction: I had yin and yang reversed in original post)
aka the tree of good and evil;
left and right, or east/west, on philosophy wheel (left brain vs. right brain).
It is the earth spinning on its axis every day, between east and west, thus twirling like a snake around the polar axis as the seasons move up and down.
It is the axis of interaction (J judging = East/P perception = West);
or Sunrise (Aries) and Sunset (Libra).
Yang - focus and action (left brain/J), Yin - openness and renunciation (right brain/P)
Alan Watts: "philosophy can be resolved into the conflict between prickles and goo"
(also T/F)
He also speaks of the difference between spotlight (focused awareness-J) and floodlight (diffuse awareness-P)
Sunrise is linked to 1st Turning- heroes in midlife, artists in youth
Summer is linked to 2nd Turning - artists in midlife, prophets in youth
Sunset is linked to 3rd Turning - prophets in midlife, nomads in youth
Winter is linked to 4th Turning - nomads in midlife, heroes in youth
Using only the daily cycle of houses, however, we get a different lineup:
1st house(sunrise) and Aries(Spring 1T) is linked to nomads ESTP
4th house(midnight) and Cancer(Summer 2T) is linked to prophets INFJ
7th house(sunset) and Libra(Fall 3T) is linked to artists ISFP
10th house(noon) and Capricorn(Winter 4T) is linked to heroes ENTJ
On the philosophy wheel, materialism (winter) is linked to bottom and nomads ESTP
spiritualism (summer) is linked to top and prophets INFJ
rational order is linked to left/east (sunrise) and heroes ENTJ
experiential flux is linked to right/west (sunset) and artists ISFP
For philosophy wheel explanations, see
http://www.california.com/~eameece/philosophycircle.htm
http://www.california.com/~eameece/questionnaire/htm
Eric, that is without a doubt the biggest pile of bullsh*t I have ever seen in my life. But naturally I love it! I never bothered to look up chakras in all these years, so as soon as I get a handle on them I'll get back to you.
5w4: INxP (though I also tested once as a 1 and another time as a 7; 1 is INTJ and 7 is E, which adds up to my ENTJ)
Okay, so I think out of my anus? :-)
Enneagram and Planets
1 Mercury
2 Moon
3 Sun
4 Neptune
5 Uranus
6 Saturn
7 Jupiter
8 Mars
9 Venus
Okay, so I'm a mix of Sun, Mars, and... my anus againPlanets and Types
Sun E/EN/ENJ
Moon F/SFJ
Mercury T/ITJ/NTP
Venus SFP
Mars ET
Jupiter ENF/ESF
Saturn ST
Uranus NT
Neptune INF
Pluto INFJ
Nothing matches at all here; my sun sign suggests ISTP/ISFP when I'm clearly an N, and my enneagram type suggests something else...MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun/Saturn Aries/Leo/Capricorn
ENFJ 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ISTP 6 Saturn/Venus Taurus/Libra
ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus
ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
ISFJ 2 Moon Cancer
ESTP 8 Mars/Saturn Aries
ESFP 7 Jupiter/Venus Sagittarius/Pisces
ESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
My MBTI says Hero/Civic; my Enneagram says Prophet/IdealisticT4T archetypes
Hero/Civic ENTJ 1/3 (also 8 Capricorn)
Artist/Adaptive ISFP 9/2/7 Libra
Prophet/Idealist INFJ 4/5 Cancer
Nomad/Reactive ESTP 6/8 Aries
Perfect for a Nomad/Hero cusp here...Hero/King/Teacher/J
Artist/Lover/Healer/P
Prophet/Priest-Magician/Visionary/I
Nomad/Warrior/E
Again, this says HeroFire/N/NF/Prophet
Earth/S/ST/Nomad
Air/T/NT/Hero
Water/F/SF/Artist
Hero againTypes and philosophy wheel:
Hero/rational order/ENTJ
Artist/experiential flux/ISFP
Prophet/spiritualist/INFJ
Nomad/materialist/ESTP
Chakra 7: Sun?Chakra system and world tree
Chakras and Planets/Signs: traditional rulers, Enneagram
Chakra One-base of spine-survival Saturn 6
Chakra Two-sexual centers-pleasure Jupiter 7
Chakra Three-solar plexus-power Mars 8
Chakra Four-heart-love Venus 9
Chakra Five-throat-expression Mercury 1
Chakra Six-third Eye-intuitive vision Moon 2, 4
Chakra Seven-crown-Sun 3, 5
Back to my anus all over again...Alternate Chakra rulers, and links to Sephiroth of the Kaballah
Ch1 Earth/Pluto S.10-world/S.9-foundation
Ch2 Venus and Mars S.8-glory
Ch3 Sun S.7-victory
Ch4 Moon S.6-beauty
Ch5 Jupiter S.4-mercy
Saturn S.5-justice
Ch6 Neptune - S.3-understanding
Ch7 Uranus - S.2-wisdom
chakras above head - Pluto, etc. - S.1-crown
and now back on the sunEnneagram, Planets, Signs/Seasons, Kaballah, and Kundalini Chakras
The signs of the zodiac represent the Sun's seasonal movement between the Tropic of Cancer (Summer in northern hemisphere) and the Tropic of Capricorn (Winter in northern hemisphere)
6 Saturn Ch 1 Aquarius/Capricorn (Winter, 4th Turning)
7 Jupiter Ch 2 Pisces/Sagittarius
8 Mars Ch 3 Aries/Scorpio (Sunrise, 1st Turning)
9 Venus Ch 4 Taurus/Libra (Sunset, 3rd Turning)
1 Mercury Ch 5 Gemini/Virgo
2,4 Moon Ch 6 Cancer (Summer, 2nd Turning)
3,5 Sun Ch 7 Leo (Summer, 2nd Turning)
Winter here...North/South Axis Winter/Summer Cancer/Capricorn
(this is the polar axis of the world tree and caduseus symbol)
It is the axis of communion, grounding, and energy sources (E/I);
aka the tree of life; the backbone of the Chakras;
Up and down axis on philosophy wheel.
Alan Watts: "the most basic metaphysical principle is that for every inside there's an outside, and vice versa"
Ambiguity is built in to this axis-- for example:
Spiritualist/Introversion or narcisism = Summer (Cancer)
Materialist/Extraversion = Winter (Capricorn)
Sunrise?East/West Axis Sunrise/Sunset Aries/Libra
Yeah... sunrise(this is the two serpents of the world tree and caduseus, one yin (Sun, left brained) and one yang (Moon, right brained).
aka the tree of good and evil;
left and right, or east/west, on philosophy wheel (left brain vs. right brain).
It is the earth spinning on its axis every day, between east and west, thus twirling like a snake around the polar axis as the seasons move up and down.
It is the axis of interaction (J judging = East/P perception = West);
or Sunrise (Aries) and Sunset (Libra).
YangYang - focus and action (left brain/J), Yin - openness and renunciation (right brain/P)
PricklesAlan Watts: "philosophy can be resolved into the conflict between prickles and goo"
(also T/F)
spotlightHe also speaks of the difference between spotlight (focused awareness-J) and floodlight (diffuse awareness-P)
10th house?Sunrise is linked to 1st Turning- heroes in midlife, artists in youth
Summer is linked to 2nd Turning - artists in midlife, prophets in youth
Sunset is linked to 3rd Turning - prophets in midlife, nomads in youth
Winter is linked to 4th Turning - nomads in midlife, heroes in youth
Using only the daily cycle of houses, however, we get a different lineup:
1st house(sunrise) and Aries(Spring 1T) is linked to nomads ESTP
4th house(midnight) and Cancer(Summer 2T) is linked to prophets INFJ
7th house(sunset) and Libra(Fall 3T) is linked to artists ISFP
10th house(noon) and Capricorn(Winter 4T) is linked to heroes ENTJ
sunrise?On the philosophy wheel, materialism (winter) is linked to bottom and nomads ESTP
spiritualism (summer) is linked to top and prophets INFJ
rational order is linked to left/east (sunrise) and heroes ENTJ
experiential flux is linked to right/west (sunset) and artists ISFP
Conclusions: I can't get my head out of my anus!For philosophy wheel explanations, see
http://www.california.com/~eameece/philosophycircle.htm
http://www.california.com/~eameece/questionnaire/htm
You and me both :lol:Conclusions: I can't get my head out of my anus!
I am INTP though, which is Myanus.
I have tested the same as you on Enneagram. I'm a Libra, which resembles ISFP, but I am a strong N. But that's because I have Myanus rising!
I'd go with that one study posted here a while ago which suggested that the Enneagram does not account for perceiving functions. I do not remember all the correlations, but I believe a few were as follows:
1 = xxTJ
2 =
3 =
4 = IxFx
5 = IxTx
6 =
7 = ExxP
8 =
9 =
In general, you exclude the perceiving function from all of them plus one other letter which varies from type to type. You do remember this study, right? If you missed it, you might want to read it.
Pluto is supposedly somewhat subversive, right? I'd think it is INFP.Planets and Types
Sun E/EN/ENJ
Moon F/SFJ
Mercury T/ITJ/NTP
Venus SFP
Mars ET
Jupiter ENF/ESF
Saturn ST
Uranus NT
Neptune INF
Pluto INFJ
I think you have INFP and INFJ reversed (but then I do not know what the hell I am talking about here!). Subversive INFP is surely Pluto and Scorpio. Communitarian INFJ is surely Neptune and Pisces.MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
I think these two types are most often Sevens (as are all ExxP types?).ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
Prophets almost seem like Ones. Could INFJ be biggest at One and Four? Artists as a profession ought to be IxFP and Four. But I don't know about generational archetype.T4T archetypes
Hero/Civic ENTJ 1/3 (also 8 Capricorn)
Artist/Adaptive ISFP 9/2/7 Libra
Prophet/Idealist INFJ 4/5 Cancer
Nomad/Reactive ESTP 6/8 Aries
The one obvious thing which seems out of whack is your assignment of INFPs. They are subversive revolutionaries and "individualist" artists. That is Four on the Enneagram, and Scorpio and Pluto I should think in your astrology.
A further look at this, moving counterclockwise around the wheel:
upper far left (abstract intuition)
Uranus/Prophet-Hero/Enneagram type 5/NT types
Chakra 7 (crown-wisdom) a yang chakra (left) Wisdom
Mercury/Hero-Prophet/Enn 1/ITJ,NTP
Chakra 5 (throat-expression) a yang chakra (left) Justice
center left (rational order)
Sun/Hero/Enn 3/EN types
Chakra 3 (solar plexus-power) a yang chakra (left) Victory
lower far left (causal thinking)
Mars/Hero-Nomad/Enn 8/ENTJ, ESTP
Chakra 3 (solar plexus-power) a yang chakra (left) Victory
Saturn/Nomad-Hero/Enn 6/ST
Chakra 1 (base of spine-survival) a yang chakra (left) Foundation
lower far right (empirical)
Jupiter/Nomad-Artist/Enn 7/EF
Chakra 2 (sexual centers-pleasure) a yin chakra (right) Glory
(or Mercy, Chakra 5- yin side)
center right (experiential flux)
Moon/Artist/Enn 2/SFJ
Chakra 4 (heart-love) a yin chakra (right) Beauty
upper far right (existential)
Venus/Artist-Prophet/Enn 9/SFP
Chakra 4 (heart-love) a yin chakra (right) Beauty
Neptune/Prophet-Artist/Enn 4/INF
Chakra 6 (third eye-imagination/vision) a yin chakra (right) Understanding
Revision of Eric's correlations between MBTI and Enneagram
Did anyone really think I'd be quiet when the Enneagram was mentioned here?
:lol:
I'm an ENTJ, so does that make me an extraverted nerd?
I'll add my correlations based on my analysis of the data at tap3x.net/EMBTI/charts.html to see how an empirical analysis of a data set compares to Eric's intuitive understanding. For each of Eric's correlations, I'll present the correlations in terms of which percentage of each MBTI type in the original study self-reported as each Enneagram type and the estimated percentage of each MBTI type in the US population for each Enneagram type after correcting for the percentage of each type in the population (as listed in "Do What You Are"). I performed the second analysis because the original data set had the reverse porpotion of N vs. S responders as has been observed in the US population!The Type correlations as I see them now:
The highest porportion of INTJs in the study (36.7%) reported themselves to be Fives. The second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Ones. The MBTI type most highly correlated with One is ENFJ (36.3%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Ones should be ISTJ (~18% of all Ones).Enneagram and MBTI types:
1 INTJ
The highest porportion of ISFJs in the study (26.3%) reported themselves to be Ones. The second highest (21.1%) reported themselves to be Nines. Two ranked fourth among ISFJs in this study at 10.5%. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Two is ESFJ (33.3%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Twos should also be ESFJ (~39% of all Twos). Only ~8% of all Twos are expected to be ISFJs.2 ISFJ
The highest porportion of ENFPs in the study (36.7%) reported themselves to be Sevens. The second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Twos. Two ranked sixth among ENFPs in this study at 2.9%. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Three is ESFJ (26.7%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Threes should be ESFJ (~32% of all Threes). Only ~6% of all Threes are expected to be ENFPs.3 ENFP
The highest porportion of INFPs in the study (31.5%) reported themselves to be Fours. The second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Nines. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Four is INFJ (35.4%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Threes should be ISFP (~20% of all Fours) with ~15% of all Fours expected to be INFPs.4 INFP
The highest porportion of INTPs in the study (60.0%) reported themselves to be Fives while the second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Sixes. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Five is INTP. According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Fives should be INTP (~21% of all Fives). The correlation between INTP and Five is the strongest between MBTI type and Enneagram type encountered in the study. Fives also show a strong correlation with the Keirsey NT Conceptualizer Temperment.5 INTP
The highest porportion of ISTJs in the study (33.3%) reported themselves to be Ones. The second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Fives (23.3%). Six ranked third among ISTJs in this study at 13.3%. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Six is ISFJ (15.8%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Sixes should be ESTJ (~18.5% of all Sixes) with ~12% of all Sixes expected to be ISTJs. Sixes also show a very strong correlation with the Keirsey SJ Guardian Temperment.6 ISTJ
The highest porportion of ESFPs in the study (42.9%) reported themselves to be Sevens. The second highest (20.4%) reported themselves to be Eights. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Seven is ESFP. According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Threes should be ESFP (~41.5% of all Threes). This is the second strongest correlation between MBTI type and Enneagram type in the study.7 ESFP
The highest porportion of ESTJs in the study (33.3%) reported themselves to be Eights. The second highest (20.0%) reported themselves to be Ones. Equally high porportions of ESTPs in the study (20.0% each) reported themselves to be Ones, Threes, Sevens, Eights, or Nines. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Eight is ENTJ (41.4%). According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Eights should be ESTJ (~31% of all Eights). Only ~9.5% of all Eights are expected to be ESTPs. The low sample size of ESTPs in the original study(only five ESTPs responded) suggests that this MBTI type needs to be sampled again.8 ESTx
The highest porportion of ISFPs in the study (33.3%) reported themselves to be Nines. The second highest (22.2%) reported themselves to be Twos. The MBTI type most highly correlated with Nine is ISFP. According the the estimated distribution, the most common MBTI type among Nines should be ISFP (~15% of all Nines). This is the fourth strongest correlation between MBTI type and Enneagram type in the study, behind ESFJ and Two in third.9 ISFP
I might switch the Moon and Venus, but I'm not the astrologer here.Enneagram and Planets
1 Mercury
2 Moon
3 Sun
4 Neptune
5 Uranus
6 Saturn
7 Jupiter
8 Mars
9 Venus
That INFJ for Pluto might make it a secondary planet for 4. You even noted this for INFJ below.Planets and Types
Sun E/EN/ENJ
Moon F/SFJ
Mercury T/ITJ/NTP
Venus SFP
Mars ET
Jupiter ENF/ESF
Saturn ST
Uranus NT
Neptune INF
Pluto INFJ
More comments down below.
YesMBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
YesINFP 4 Neptune Pisces
This is primarily a Five MBTI with One secondary. I think your associations are OK based on that.INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
Four is good. Replace Five with One, as 22.6% of INFJs are One, while only 15% are Fives, so replace Neptune with Mercury. Interesting--the fastest and slowest planets to travel through the sky!INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
But you had the Sun for Three! Also, the second strongest correlation for ENTP is Eight. You might consider Sun/Mars for this MBTI in addition to Uranus for the NT component. FWIW, ENTP is usually expected to correlate with Seven, but didn't in this particular study. Jupiter might work for it also.ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
Three is a poor association for this MBTI. Use Two instead. You'd probably want to use Moon/Jupiter, although I keep thinking Venus/Jupiter would be more appropriate. Then again, I'm not the astrologer.ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
More ENTJs are Ones than Threes or Sixes. Mars is OK, but consider Mercury instead of the Sun and Saturn.ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun/Saturn Aries/Leo/Capricorn
More ENFJs are Ones and Twos than Threes or Sevens. Consider Mercury and Venus (my taste) or Moon instead.ENFJ 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ISTP is very strongly Five and secondarily Nine. None in the study were Sixes. Uranus and Moon would be my choices.ISTP 6 Saturn/Venus Taurus/Libra
My usual comment about Moon vs. Venus.ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus
More ISTJs are Fives than Sixes. Add Uranus to the mix.ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
More ISFJs are Nines than Twos. Add Venus--that way the Two/Nine confusion (which is actually quite common) comes out in the wash. :wink: Also add Saturn as SJ types are strongly correlated with Six.ISFJ 2 Moon Cancer
This one is up in the air.ESTP 8 Mars/Saturn Aries
There are a lot of ESFP Eights. Add Mars (although the dynamics of the Enneagram suggest that a lot of ESFP Eights are really Twos that have moved along their direction of disintegration!)ESFP 7 Jupiter/Venus Sagittarius/Pisces
OKESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
Again, my usual suggestion to replace Moon with Venus for Twos. Also, very few ESFJs are Sevens; many more are Threes. Replace Jupiter with Sun and add Saturn for the Six component.ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
Gee, I must really have wanted to respond--I spent two hours on this. I'm not even that keen on astrology. I just wanted to clarify the correlations between MBTI and the Enneagram!
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."
Possibly. From my reading, the enneagram excludes the intuitive or the spiritual and focuses on the emotional, intellectual and physical (3 types each). The fourth element would bring it up to 12 (same as astrology).
INFP is a mild-mannered and reclusive artist, monk and healer, except when they come out crusading for something. I have always thought Neptune, Type 4 and INFP are all identical; one of the easiest correlations to make.Pluto is supposedly somewhat subversive, right? I'd think it is INFP.
J seeks order and decisiveness; thus any J type leans left/yang to an extent. INFJ is thus more in the center, a balance of F (right brained) and J (left-brained), while INFP is very existential and right-brained. The emphasis in INFJ is on prophecy and counseling; mixing politics in here can lead us astray; these are more personality types, not political ideologies. That's a different circle.I think you have INFP and INFJ reversed (but then I do not know what the hell I am talking about here!). Subversive INFP is surely Pluto and Scorpio. Communitarian INFJ is surely Neptune and Pisces.MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
But certainly INFJ is communitarian like idealists are; that's why INFJ is the Prophet/Idealist. But it's a balance between compassion (F) and ability to organize (J). That puts it in the center, not the right. Types on the right and P types, like INFP, don't want to organize anything; they just want to be open to experience. They aren't very effective subversives. Better drop outs and screamers.
INFJ is about transforming yourself through inner wisdom. That is what Scorpio is all about. INFP is right-brained or yin (Neptune), INTx is left-brained or yang (Uranus), while Pluto is always thought of as neuter (thus at the center, the spiritualist pole = INFJ). Scorpio is water (feeling) but fixed (organized). Thus INFJ. Pisces is water (feeling) and mutable (diffused). Thus INFP.
Pluto is also the underground though, so it also links with the opposite or materialist pole (ESTP). ESTP is also linked to Aries, and both Scorpio and Aries are also ruled by Mars, lower octave of Pluto. But I know I'm getting too complicated here.
7 does seem like EFP for sure, ESFP and ENFP. But ENTP is the inventor and doesn't seem like a 7; and ESTP seems more like an 8.I think these two types are most often Sevens (as are all ExxP types?).ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
Jupiter is linked to some different types. It is a dual planet by nature. There are some overlaps as I look at these correlations.
ENFP is also Jupiter, and could certainly be a 7. Usually I think of 7s as more materialist though, more prone to indulgence and interested in pleasure; thus more ESFP and Chakra Two.
ENTP is just like INTP, but outward directed. The formulas correlate it with 3, but it could in many ways be 5 too. Except that 5 is more introverted (INTP).
Yes, I think Artists are IxFP, generationally too. But the social or people-minded Artists are SFJ.Prophets almost seem like Ones. Could INFJ be biggest at One and Four? Artists as a profession ought to be IxFP and Four. But I don't know about generational archetype.T4T archetypes
Hero/Civic ENTJ 1/3 (also 8 Capricorn)
Artist/Adaptive ISFP 9/2/7 Libra
Prophet/Idealist INFJ 4/5 Cancer
Nomad/Reactive ESTP 6/8 Aries
I think Prophets are a blend of 4,5 and 1. 4 overlaps with Artist, and 5 and 1 with Hero. I think of INFJ as 4/5, and INTJ as One and Five. INFP is 4.
Clearly 4 is the romantic, and that is Neptune. Both lean strongly to the right or existential on the wheel. Both are strong non-conformists. I'm not looking so much at political connotations like "subversive." INFPs are probably too gentle by nature to be revolutionaries. F is their dominant function. But they are certainly radical in their attitudes. They are more the peace marchers and tree huggers, I think. They are the typical new age hippies, along with ISFP. They aren't given to subversive planning, because they aren't J and T. J's are the planners, and hence conspirators. Look to INTJs for that.The one obvious thing which seems out of whack is your assignment of INFPs. They are subversive revolutionaries and "individualist" artists. That is Four on the Enneagram, and Scorpio and Pluto I should think in your astrology.
Here's what my study found:
1 = xxxJ with tendencies to xSxJ (xxFJ and xxTJ nearly equal--no SP!)
2 = ExFx with some xSFx
3 = ExTx (but a large element of ESFJ--possible contamination with 2)
4 = IxFx with some xNFx
5 = IxTx
6 = xSxJ (very strong!)
7 = ExxP with tendencies to ExFP
8 = ExTx with tendencies to ExTJ
9 = ISFx
With the exceptions of Six, Nine, and possibly Four, perceiving functions are not important. In the case of Six, Introverted Sensing is either dominant or auxillary. In the case of Nine, Introversion with Sensing and Feeling is the case. Four shows Introversion with Feeling and a tendency towards Intuition. Otherwise, the type of judging function and the orientation of the dominant function is most important, except for type One, where the orientation of the predominant judging function (extraverted), regardless of whether it is Feeling or Thinking and whether it is dominant or auxillary, is a factor.
FWIW, here are two correlations between Enneagram Types and Jungian Types:
Riso's correlation of Enneagram types with Jung's Personality Types:
1=extraverted thinking
2=extraverted feeling
3=no particular Jungian type!
4=introverted intuition
5=introverted thinking
6=introverted feeling
7=extraverted sensing
8=extraverted intuition
9=introverted sensing
Alternative correlation of Enneagram types with Jung's Personality Types (from the unpublished study of mine I've been citing):
1=no particular Jungian type--generalized extraverted Judging types
2=extraverted feeling
3=extraverted sensing/intuition (introverted thinking)
4=introverted feeling with intuition
5=introverted thinking
6=introverted sensing
7=extraverted intuition/sensing (introvered feeling)
8=extraverted thinking
9=introverted feeling with sensing
Yikes! I missed the following section the first time around. Considering it's what makes this section relevant to the book, it's what's most worth responding to!
It is.Prophets almost seem like Ones. Could INFJ be biggest at One and Four?T4T archetypes
Hero/Civic ENTJ 1/3 (also 8 Capricorn)
Artist/Adaptive ISFP 9/2/7 Libra
Prophet/Idealist INFJ 4/5 Cancer
Nomad/Reactive ESTP 6/8 Aries
Well, I've done an empirical study on the correlation between Enneagram and Generational Archetype before. Here it is:Artists as a profession ought to be IxFP and Four. But I don't know about generational archetype.
If there is anything to the Enneagram types, one should be able to predict which types should be most present in a generation based solely on the comparison of the relative attachment of a typical member of a generation to his or her father and/or mother (something S&H do in Generations) with the "parental orientation" of each type (which Riso and Hudson do in "Personality Types").
For Prophet generations, S&H mention an attachment to mothers and antipathy to fathers, especially based on the youthful and coming-of-age behavior of Boomers. Translating Riso and Hudson's "nurturing figure" into mother and "protective figure" into father, this predicts that dominant types among Prophets should be 3/Achiever (attached to mother) and 1/Reformer (alienated from father). That would produce narcissistic Yuppies and angry reforming Hippies, in accordance with the predictions of S&H.
What about Hero generations? S&H posit an attachment to fathers (although not necessarily an antipathy to mothers). The corresponding type on the Enneagram is 6/Loyalist. One would then get the comforming GI and Organization Man. With an antipathy to mothers, one would also get 7/Enthusiasts.
What about Artists? This one is difficult, as S&H don't talk much about
parental orientation of recessive generations, but considering the strong
family bonds between Artists and their Nomad parents, one might expect a strong attachment to both. The corresponding type is 9/Peacemaker. This fits the peacemaking role of adaptives in society.
Finally, Nomads. Again, there is little about relative strength of bonds
between young Nomads and their Artist parents, but considering the weak overall bonds, I'd expect some alienation from both. The result is 4/Individualist. Well, "individualist" is a fair description of Nomad generations, at least in youth and rising adulthood!
I found that these were surprisingly close fits between what theory would
predict from both sources and what the behavior of the dominant members of each generation showed, at least when younger.
To test these predictions, I compiled a master list of all the celebrities Riso mentions for each of the nine types and then cross-listed them by generations as best as I could remember. Here are my preliminary results of percentage of each generational archetype belonging to each enneagram type:
Type Prophet Nomad Hero Artist
1.......6.3........0........8.9......17.4
2.......6.9.......3.4.......3.6.......4.7
3......19.2......17.2.......1.8......11.6
4.......6.3.......3.4.......3.6.......6.6
5......13.7......17.2.......8.9.......2.3
6......20.0......10.3......12.5......11.6
7......13.8......10.3......21.4......17.4
8.......6.2......10.0......19.6......19.8
9.......8.7......27.6......19.6.......8.1
These numbers may change a bit as I check on birthdates of some of the celebrities (it's still amazing how many celebrities I could place in a generation just from memory--then again, I've been thinking generationally since 1992), but the general trends are clear and shouldn't change much.
The label for type 1 is reformer. It should be no surprise that Riso listed no
famous Nomad reformers. What is surprising is the high number of Artist
reformers, much more than Boomer reformers! Riso also lists the celebrities by their subtypes, which allows me to see an interesting trend within the reformers he lists. All the Heroes (including the only two non-GIs in the sample, Thomas Jefferson and Cotton Mather) are the rationalist 1w9, the Silents are split evenly between 1w9 and 1w2, and the Boomers are predominantly the passionate 1w2, except for Al Gore.
The emoting and caring 2s don't have a high representation among any
generation, except maybe among Prophets, but that's probably because it's difficult to become very famous being a helper. I'm sure that they're more common, since my ex is a (very unhealthy) 2w3 and my girfriend is a healthy 2w1.
In an earlier post, I used the parental orientations of the type to predict which type would predominate in the various generations. Based on the maternal orientation, I picked type 3 to be common among Prophets. I was right. The narcissistic and achieving motivator was the second most common type among Prophets. They make up just as big a percentage among Nomads and are 33.3 percent of the Xers in particular. FWIW, Nomad generations as a whole have a set of numbers different than Xers alone, a topic which I'll get to later. Achievers are rare among Heroes (only one, Jimmy Carter, out of 57 or so). They are moderately common among Artists.
Fours are another rare type (Susan will find this as no surprise), but are more common among Prophet and Artist Generations.
Fives (most of us) display an interesting pattern. They are highest among
Nomads, slightly lower among Prophets, uncommon in Heroes, and scarce as hen's teeth in Artists. I guess it's difficult for an Artist to be an original
thinker, but Nomads do well in this. However, out of five Nomads Riso lists as Type 5, only one is an Xer. I guess being a famous 5 takes age and time.
Sixes are fairly common in all generational types. In fact, they are
surprisingly common among Prophets, which I find surprising. However, the only two Boomers that Riso mentions which are clearly on the "Anti-Awakening" side (Rush Limbaugh and Oliver North) are Sixes.
Sevens are also fairly common in all generational types, but are most common among Heroes, followed by Artists and then Prophets. They are rare among famous Nomads.
Eights are surprisingly strong among Artists. However, Riso's list of Artist
Eights is weighted heavily in favor of leaders in arts and entertainment, with very few in politics. The Hero Eights are much more common in politics. While he lists no Xer Eights, this type makes up 10% of all Nomads he lists. I guess Xers haven't grown into the leadership role yet. Eights are rare among Prophets.
Nines are most common among Nomads and Heroes and weakest among Prophets and Artists. Already 33% of famous Xers Riso listed are this type and lots of Lost (including Norman Rockwell) also fit this type.
Here's the note about Nomads and Xers that I mentioned earlier: Riso lists only 15 Xers in his examples of celebrities. However, he lists 29 Nomads of all generations. This is a much higher ratio of dead generations to the living generation than for any other other type. For example, as far as I can tell, he only lists 8 Missionaries and Trancendentals in contrast to 73 Boomers. He lists only Silents among his Artist generational types--not a single Progressive or Compromiser! This suggests to me that Nomads make great and long-lasting contributions late in life. How's that for a generational endowment?
In conclusion, using Eric's table, here's what I predicted:
Hero/Civic...........6/7
Artist/Adaptive......9
Prophet/Idealist....1/3
Nomad/Reactive......4
No explicit predictions for 2, 5, and 8.
And here's what I got (all types with at least 10% of generation in decreasing order from most common):
Hero/Civic...........6, 8, 9, 7.
Artist/Adaptive......8, 1, 7, 3, 6.
Prophet/Idealist....6, 3, 5, 7.
Nomad/Reactive......9, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8.
I haven't got a good explanation for the discrepancies between the theory and reality, but I'm working on it!
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."
Re: Revision of Eric's correlations between MBTI and Enneagr
Thanks for the info. I'm not sure about the empirical data here, because I've never seena reliable test for Enneagram Type. But I'll look at this.
Summarizing your data:
INTJ 5,1
1 = ENFJ, ISTJ
ISFJ 1,9
2 = ESFJ
ENFP 7,2
3 = ESFJ
INFP 4,9
4 = INFJ
INTP 5,6
5 = INTP, NT
ISTJ 1,5,6
6 = ESTJ, ISTJ, SJ
ESFP 7,8,3
ESTx 8,1
8 = ENTJ, ESTJ
ISFP 9,2
9 = ISFP
Since INFJ is not a thinking type, it makes sense that it is not a Five.MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
Yes
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
Yes
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
This is primarily a Five MBTI with One secondary. I think your associations are OK based on that.
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
Four is good. Replace Five with One, as 22.6% of INFJs are One, while only 15% are Fives, so replace Neptune with Mercury. Interesting--the fastest and slowest planets to travel through the sky!
But for the same reason, Mercury is questionable. But Mercury is linked to Hermes, the magician and ruler of Alchemy. So maybe. I guess INFJs are reformers too. Stonewall was suggesting they are communitarians, whatever that means. INFJs don't seem like "perfectionists" though.
I did have Sun and Mars for ENTP too, but that gave it 3 planets; too many.ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
But you had the Sun for Three! Also, the second strongest correlation for ENTP is Eight. You might consider Sun/Mars for this MBTI in addition to Uranus for the NT component. FWIW, ENTP is usually expected to correlate with Seven, but didn't in this particular study. Jupiter might work for it also.
Three is probably wrong; I thought all EN types might be 3s. I guess not! Is Three correct for ENTP? Seven seems wrong; ENTPs are inventors, not indulgent performers. Eight might work, but ENTPs are not power-mongers either. Five correlates with Uranus and NT, but 5 seems a very introverted type. ENTPs are such mavericks that they are the hardest to typecast.
If ISFP is the composer and bucolic nature lover, that is Venus, the planet of beauty and nature. Also, peace and accomodation (9). The Moon is the caterer and nurturer; thus ESFJ fits, as well as ISTJ the conservator. The Moon in astrology is more introverted though, which is why I thought ISFJ would fit better with The Moon, and thus with #2. But I can easily accept ESFJ as #2.ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
Three is a poor association for this MBTI. Use Two instead. You'd probably want to use Moon/Jupiter, although I keep thinking Venus/Jupiter would be more appropriate. Then again, I'm not the astrologer.
For ENFP, I'll take 7! Two is too subservient to be the outspoken and enthusiastic ENFP, though I see them as related as well. #2 in your stats. Maybe Jupiter/Moon fits.
You reported ENTJ correlates with 8. That's what I say. 8 is Mars.ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun/Saturn Aries/Leo/Capricorn
More ENTJs are Ones than Threes or Sixes. Mars is OK, but consider Mercury instead of the Sun and Saturn.
I thought Sun and Saturn fit with the description of the "field-marshall." But maybe that title doesn't fit most ENTJs, such as yourself. Mercury fits OK as a thinker, but Mercury is not as assertive and commanding as ENTJs are supposed to be. The dominant and institutional approach of ENTJ fits Sun and Saturn, even if Saturn is 6 and Sun is 3. There are more MBTI types than Enneagram types and Planets, so they can't all line up exactly, and several MBTI types might correspond to one planet or Enneagram type.
OK I'll consider that. 3 is probably wrong. But Jupiter might still fit. Jupiter is a dual planet with contradictory associations. Jupiter is linked to the sign of Sagittarius, which is noted as a sign of teachers and is very intuitive, and ENFJ is the pedagogue. The Sun is also known as a teacher for young people. The Sun is the inspiring example and source of life; which type is that?ENFJ 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
More ENFJs are Ones and Twos than Threes or Sevens. Consider Mercury and Venus (my taste) or Moon instead.
Mercury would not fit well; ENFJ is a feeling type, and Mercury is only mental.
OK. I'll change to 5. But Uranus doesn't fit a sensing type. Maybe Mercury and Venus. That fits the "craftsman" title.ISTP 6 Saturn/Venus Taurus/Libra
ISTP is very strongly Five and secondarily Nine. None in the study were Sixes. Uranus and Moon would be my choices.
Venus fits well, but the Moon is not far off. Venus is definitely known as the peacemaker, and that could only be 9.ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus.
My usual comment about Moon vs. Venus.
No can do that! Uranus is too visionary for "the inspector." Uranus is NT.ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
More ISTJs are Fives than Sixes. Add Uranus to the mix.
STs seem to be 5, in your experience. Certainly 5 is the thinker. But doesn't the SJ correlate with 6? What could be more 6 than ISTJ? Very security conscious.
Something to consider.ISFJ 2 Moon Cancer
More ISFJs are Nines than Twos. Add Venus--that way the Two/Nine confusion (which is actually quite common) comes out in the wash. :wink: Also add Saturn as SJ types are strongly correlated with Six.
But The Moon also has something of 6 about it. Basically quite conservative. Also associated with the common people.
It's hard to see ESFP as 8. Two would seem closer for this more passive and pliable type. 7 seems to fit very well, and the stats you reported verified that. I could see 3 would fit too, but that does not fit my planetary formula.ESFP 7 Jupiter/Venus Sagittarius/Pisces
There are a lot of ESFP Eights. Add Mars (although the dynamics of the Enneagram suggest that a lot of ESFP Eights are really Twos that have moved along their direction of disintegration!)
Well, Jupiter again is ambiguous and dual-natured. Jupiter is "exalted" in Cancer, and thus has an association with Two as well as Seven. If ESFJ is "the provider," well Jupiter provides! It is the planet of fortune, generosity and wealth. It is very sociable. Besides, ESFJ is close to ESFP.ESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
OK
ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
Again, my usual suggestion to replace Moon with Venus for Twos. Also, very few ESFJs are Sevens; many more are Threes. Replace Jupiter with Sun and add Saturn for the Six component.
Sun? Your data said ESFJ is Two. Two HAS to be The Moon. Everything about Two says The Moon. It is the helper and nurturer. Sun would be contradictory. Saturn is not a feeling planet, although SJ fits.
Thanks. 8)Gee, I must really have wanted to respond--I spent two hours on this. I'm not even that keen on astrology. I just wanted to clarify the correlations between MBTI and the Enneagram!
Hmmmm. I'd talk to INFPs Helio and Justino if I were you. INFPs are radicals. They are the "socialists" who "break things" in the old expression. And they are moody artists prone to violent outbursts. INFPs tear down the old order and I would think it is the mild-mannered INFJs (think Tim and Neisha) who build things back up.
As I recall, Scorpio is associated with organized crime, prisons, asylums, voracious sexual appetite, and all kinds of good things. To my mind, that has INFP written all over it. That sounds like Helio and Justino all the way. Tim and Neisha? Not in a million years (too even tempered and under control).
Surely Pluto = Scorpio = INFP, and Neptune = Pisces = INFJ. Am I missing something?
Exactly. They break things! They are the rioters and screamers, the "anarchists." They are far and away the most subversive.Types on the right and P types, like INFP, don't want to organize anything; they just want to be open to experience. They aren't very effective subversives. Better drop outs and screamers.
OK, it's just that I recall Scorpio being associated with prisons, asylums, venereal disease, you name it. That sounds a whole lot more INFP than INFJ.INFJ is about transforming yourself through inner wisdom. That is what Scorpio is all about.
Geez, man. INFPs claim Tom Paine as one of their own (rightly or wrongly, I do not know). Then there is Rousseau, of course. The INFP's emotions boil up to the surface and s/he loses control. The INFP is the "disillusioned artist."Clearly 4 is the romantic, and that is Neptune. Both lean strongly to the right or existential on the wheel. Both are strong non-conformists. I'm not looking so much at political connotations like "subversive." INFPs are probably too gentle by nature to be revolutionaries.
Radical anarchists. I think INFJs are more likely to be tree huggers. INFPs break things. I see INFPs more as Wiccans and as, say, the hags in MacBeth.F is their dominant function. But they are certainly radical in their attitudes. They are more the peace marchers and tree huggers, I think.
Right. INFPs are spontaneous. They lose control of their emotions and break things. They are revolutionaries and probably the single most subversive type.They are the typical new age hippies, along with ISFP. They aren't given to subversive planning, because they aren't J and T. J's are the planners, and hence conspirators. Look to INTJs for that.
Vince and Eric:
You guys really do trip me out. I see this discussion conducted in an old episode of Monty Python. Vince is John Cleese with that brigade commander demeanor and Eric is another of the guys, maybe Michael Palin. Correction: Eric is that fruity naked guy playing the piano outside with the vikings roaming around!
WTF? You make it sound like we Scorpios are the scum of the earth! I'll take Eric's description instead, thank you very much. :wink:
Much madness is divinest sense. -- Emily Dickinson
No, no! I had a lot of fun with Justino when I originally looked this up on Eric's account. Justino is a Scorpio and he was tripping out that it talked about prisons and asylums. But even when I take such tests, I score highest on Sagittarius, Scorpio, and Aquarius, so it is not like I am putting anybody down. I guess it's the gulag for me. :wink:WTF? You make it sound like we Scorpios are the scum of the earth! I'll take Eric's description instead, thank you very much. :wink:
Yeah, I think so. INFPs are certainly moody, but Pisces is more moody and unstable than Scorpio, which is very controlled and directed, though emotional. Violent outbursts, INFP? I doubt that. Heliotrope and Justino don't sound violent to me at all; just the reverse. But moody, sure.Hmmmm. I'd talk to INFPs Helio and Justino if I were you. INFPs are radicals. They are the "socialists" who "break things" in the old expression. And they are moody artists prone to violent outbursts. INFPs tear down the old order and I would think it is the mild-mannered INFJs (think Tim and Neisha) who build things back up.
As I recall, Scorpio is associated with organized crime, prisons, asylums, voracious sexual appetite, and all kinds of good things. To my mind, that has INFP written all over it. That sounds like Helio and Justino all the way. Tim and Neisha? Not in a million years (too even tempered and under control).
Surely Pluto = Scorpio = INFP, and Neptune = Pisces = INFJ. Am I missing something?
"Organized" crime? Again, INFJ is organized, INFP is not.
But not very effective at it. They may be the rioters, but they are also the meditators and healers.Exactly. They break things! They are the rioters and screamers, the "anarchists." They are far and away the most subversive.Types on the right and P types, like INFP, don't want to organize anything; they just want to be open to experience. They aren't very effective subversives. Better drop outs and screamers.
Asylums and prisons is definitely Pisces! Scorpio is associated with sex, but more as an act of communion than a physical act, which is more Taurean. That's where the "appetite" is. Scorpio is intuitive rather than sense-based. Scorpio uses sexuality as a source of power. Tantra and sex magic.OK, it's just that I recall Scorpio being associated with prisons, asylums, venereal disease, you name it. That sounds a whole lot more INFP than INFJ.INFJ is about transforming yourself through inner wisdom. That is what Scorpio is all about.
Sure, and that's all Pisces. Scorpio rarely loses control and hides his feelings, intense though they are.Geez, man. INFPs claim Tom Paine as one of their own (rightly or wrongly, I do not know). Then there is Rousseau, of course. The INFP's emotions boil up to the surface and s/he loses control. The INFP is the "disillusioned artist."Clearly 4 is the romantic, and that is Neptune. Both lean strongly to the right or existential on the wheel. Both are strong non-conformists. I'm not looking so much at political connotations like "subversive." INFPs are probably too gentle by nature to be revolutionaries.
I agree. But INFPs are tree huggers too, and don't break things except once in a while when the mood strikes. INFJs are sitting back reading the tree bark to divine the future, and telling the tree huggers how to hug them more effectively.Radical anarchists. I think INFJs are more likely to be tree huggers. INFPs break things. I see INFPs more as Wiccans and as, say, the hags in MacBeth.F is their dominant function. But they are certainly radical in their attitudes. They are more the peace marchers and tree huggers, I think.
But not the ones the establishment is most afraid of. Just the one they most ridicule.Right. INFPs are spontaneous. They lose control of their emotions and break things. They are revolutionaries and probably the single most subversive type.They are the typical new age hippies, along with ISFP. They aren't given to subversive planning, because they aren't J and T. J's are the planners, and hence conspirators. Look to INTJs for that.
Eric:
You are the astrologer so you ought to know. All I can say is that a lot of these descriptions relate Scorpio to penitentiaries, lunatic asylums, and gulags. I remember this specifically because I was discussing it privately with Justino and scaring the hell out of him! :lol:
I'd let Helio discuss the INFP's "subversive aggression." She has it down pat.
So what would you say about a Taurus/Scorpio sexual pairing?Yeah, I think so. INFPs are certainly moody, but Pisces is more moody and unstable than Scorpio, which is very controlled and directed, though emotional. Violent outbursts, INFP? I doubt that. Heliotrope and Justino don't sound violent to me at all; just the reverse. But moody, sure.Hmmmm. I'd talk to INFPs Helio and Justino if I were you. INFPs are radicals. They are the "socialists" who "break things" in the old expression. And they are moody artists prone to violent outbursts. INFPs tear down the old order and I would think it is the mild-mannered INFJs (think Tim and Neisha) who build things back up.
As I recall, Scorpio is associated with organized crime, prisons, asylums, voracious sexual appetite, and all kinds of good things. To my mind, that has INFP written all over it. That sounds like Helio and Justino all the way. Tim and Neisha? Not in a million years (too even tempered and under control).
Surely Pluto = Scorpio = INFP, and Neptune = Pisces = INFJ. Am I missing something?
"Organized" crime? Again, INFJ is organized, INFP is not.
But not very effective at it. They may be the rioters, but they are also the meditators and healers.Exactly. They break things! They are the rioters and screamers, the "anarchists." They are far and away the most subversive.Types on the right and P types, like INFP, don't want to organize anything; they just want to be open to experience. They aren't very effective subversives. Better drop outs and screamers.
Asylums and prisons is definitely Pisces! Scorpio is associated with sex, but more as an act of communion than a physical act, which is more Taurean. That's where the "appetite" is. Scorpio is intuitive rather than sense-based. Scorpio uses sexuality as a source of power. Tantra and sex magic.OK, it's just that I recall Scorpio being associated with prisons, asylums, venereal disease, you name it. That sounds a whole lot more INFP than INFJ.INFJ is about transforming yourself through inner wisdom. That is what Scorpio is all about.
Sure, and that's all Pisces. Scorpio rarely loses control and hides his feelings, intense though they are.Geez, man. INFPs claim Tom Paine as one of their own (rightly or wrongly, I do not know). Then there is Rousseau, of course. The INFP's emotions boil up to the surface and s/he loses control. The INFP is the "disillusioned artist."Clearly 4 is the romantic, and that is Neptune. Both lean strongly to the right or existential on the wheel. Both are strong non-conformists. I'm not looking so much at political connotations like "subversive." INFPs are probably too gentle by nature to be revolutionaries.
I agree. But INFPs are tree huggers too, and don't break things except once in a while when the mood strikes. INFJs are sitting back reading the tree bark to divine the future, and telling the tree huggers how to hug them more effectively.Radical anarchists. I think INFJs are more likely to be tree huggers. INFPs break things. I see INFPs more as Wiccans and as, say, the hags in MacBeth.F is their dominant function. But they are certainly radical in their attitudes. They are more the peace marchers and tree huggers, I think.
But not the ones the establishment is most afraid of. Just the one they most ridicule.Right. INFPs are spontaneous. They lose control of their emotions and break things. They are revolutionaries and probably the single most subversive type.They are the typical new age hippies, along with ISFP. They aren't given to subversive planning, because they aren't J and T. J's are the planners, and hence conspirators. Look to INTJs for that.
Enneagram and MBTI
Enneagram and MBTI types:
1 INTJ
2 ISFJ
3 ENFP
4 INFP
5 INTP
6 ISTJ
7 ESFP
8 ESTx
9 ISFP
Vince's correlations:
Your correlations make a lot of sense.Here's what my study found:
1 = xxxJ with tendencies to xSxJ (xxFJ and xxTJ nearly equal--no SP!)
2 = ExFx with some xSFx
3 = ExTx (but a large element of ESFJ--possible contamination with 2)
4 = IxFx with some xNFx
5 = IxTx
6 = xSxJ (very strong!)
7 = ExxP with tendencies to ExFP
8 = ExTx with tendencies to ExTJ
9 = ISFx
1. I used to say J too.
2. The E part I wonder about. But apparantly ESFJ is a better fit than ISFJ according to your stats, which however I think are not that thorough. Two and Nine are similar; you say one is ESF (2) and the other is ISF (9). Makes sense. I distinguished between SFJ (2) and SFP (9). I said the Moon is J, but that's probably not true. So maybe 2 is not necessarily J.
3. I guess I was right originally in thinking ENTP might be 3, but ENTJ even more so. The EST types are achievers too, but more aggressive, in the realm of 8, and ESTJ is in the 6 realm too. Whichever type is both proud of itself, and likes to inspire others and achieve leadership, is correlated to Three (and The Sun).
In general, Sun is ET because it is the conscious mind. So it shares ET with Mars. Mars is ENTJ, ESTJ and ESTP. Sun is ENTJ, ENTP, but also ESFP is in there as "the performer," which The Sun is too.
4. INF, but I think INFP is the most typical.
5. INTP, but your data suggest that sensing/thinkers are also 5s. So IxTx fits.
6. I had ST originally, so STJ is the most typical I think. ESFJ would not be the most typical Six, since it is also linked to 2 and 3.
7. EFP sounds just right.
8. I had it as ET, especially ESTP and ENTJ. ETJ makes sense, but I also think ESTP is 8, more than 3. ESTPs are survivalists more than motivators/achievers, aren't they? ESTP is the Nomad par excellance, and Nomad correlates with all the warrior archetypes in other systems. ESTJ obviously has a strong 6 element.
9. ISFx sounds right.
The four types ENTP, ISFJ, ENFJ and ISTP are the hardest to classify in other terms I think, because they are the most moderate, combining tendences that are very different like TP and FJ. I correlate them with the center of the wheel, not the edges. But enneagram and zodiac types both are shown as being on the edges of a wheel, just like the generational types. Thus they are considered as extreme examples of type. I disagree with the order in which the Enneagram types are usually placed on the circle, but I would place all but types 2 and 3 on the edge of my own generalized "wheel."
Two and Three then may be linked to most of these four types, as I see it. But those 4 MBTI types cannot be correlated with the most typical of other types, because they are hybrids and mavericks.
So ISFJ and ENFJ are Two, and ENTP is Three; but not the most typical types of either. You said ISTP is Five. and ENTP also has a 5 aspect. ISFJ is also 9, and ENFJ is also One.
I thought of ENTP as primarily Uranus, because Uranus is the maverick and inventor, and is extraverted (unlike Type 5).
The Riso et al research about generations and enneagrams seem like they didn't use a large enough sample. They seem to be way off in the results from the theories. It was interesting that Seven is linked to Heroes. Certainly it fits their "accentuate the positive" aspect. But 7 as Hero doesn't fit my scheme at all! I don't know what to do with that. Also, Seven has that strong "indulgence" aspect, and that fits Heroes only in old age! The most important trait of Heroes is their ability to work together in teams; their collegeality. Which Type is that? I usually say ENTJ is the most typical Hero type. But during a 4T, maybe Prophets are the ENTJs!
ENFPs (7) are supposed to seek authenticity; not a Hero trait at all. Heros are outer-directed.
Prophets, people say, are split generations. So there are the genuinely prophetic prophets, who are 4s, 1s and/or 5s, and then there are the reactionary prophets, the Hoovers and Limbaughs and W. Bushes, who are Sixes.
Nomads as thinkers doesn't work, except for the sensing thinkers like ISTP and ESTP. I think of Nomads as doers, not just thinkers. But doer/thinker fits. I would think Heroes have more of a thinking element; not as creative individualists, but as technicians and organizers such as ESTJ, ISTJ and ENTJ/ENTP.
The correlations of planets and types all fit very well.
Again:
One-Mercury
Two-Moon
Three-Sun
Four-Neptune
Five-Uranus
Six-Saturn
Seven-Jupiter
Eight-Mars
Nine-Venus
The only questionable one is One and Mercury, in which One is Mercury only in its Virgo mode, rather than Gemini. So Gemini is also available to correlate with Five types. But also, Jupiter can correspond with quite different types, as can Mercury, besides their primary ones. Those two planets are flexible, multi-faceted, versatile, and dualistic, having both a physical or sensing mode (S), and an intuitive (Jupiter) or thinking (Mercury) mode. Jupiter rules Sagittarius (man combined with horse) and Pisces (two fishes). Mercury rules Gemini, the Twins, as well as Virgo. So Jupiter is definitely Seven, but can correspond with MBTI types that are not Sevens. And Mercury is One, but also Five.
There is a problem with Two and Nine. If Two is extraverted it fits Venus, since Venus is more extraverted, and if Nine is introverted it fits the Moon, which is more introverted. Yet in general there is no doubt that the Moon is the emotional helper, and Venus the peacemaker. So just as 3 and 8 are both ET, 2 and 9 are both SF. Both represent the feminine.
So in sum, we have now:
One-Mercury/J types/INTJ
Two-Moon/F,SF/ESFJ
Three-Sun/ET/ENTJ
Four-Neptune/INF/INFP
Five-Uranus/IT/INTP
Six-Saturn/STJ/ESTJ
Seven-Jupiter/EFP/ESFP
Eight-Mars/ET/ESTP
Nine-Venus/SF/ISFP
MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs (no more than two types correlated to one MBTI)
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 5/1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/1 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
ENTP 3/5 Sun/Uranus Aquarius
ENFP 7/2 Jupiter/Moon Sagittarius
ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun Aries/Leo
ENFJ 1/2 Jupiter Sagittarius
ISTP 5 Mercury/Venus Gemini/Taurus
ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus
ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
ISFJ 2/9 Moon/Venus Cancer/Libra
ESTP 8 Mars Aries
ESFP 7/3 Jupiter/Sun Sagittarius/Leo
ESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
Oooh! My nerdliness on this topic knows no bounds! I haven't even read the subsequent posts yet, and still I feel compelled to reply.
Hmm. I'm an INFJ, but my F and T are really close, so I frequently test INTJ. The description for INFJ fits better than INTJ, though. On the Enneagram I come out 5w4, which fits better than 4w5.The Type correlations as I see them now:
Enneagram and MBTI types:
1 INTJ
2 ISFJ
3 ENFP
4 INFP
5 INTP
6 ISTJ
7 ESFP
8 ESTx
9 ISFP
What's the significance of Neptune? Or am I associated with Uranus. (Heh, heh, I said Uranus.)
Enneagram and Planets
1 Mercury
2 Moon
3 Sun
4 Neptune
5 Uranus
6 Saturn
7 Jupiter
8 Mars
9 Venus
I don't know what any of that means, but I'm a Cancer, 6/27/67, 10:20 a.m. Central daylight savings time.
MBTI types, Enneagram, Planets, Signs
INTP 5 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
INFP 4 Neptune Pisces
INTJ 1 Uranus/Mercury Aquarius/Virgo
INFJ 4/5 Neptune/Pluto Scorpio
ENTP 3 Uranus Aquarius/Gemini
ENFP 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ENTJ 8/3 Mars/Sun/Saturn Aries/Leo/Capricorn
ENFJ 3 Sun/Jupiter Sagittarius
ISTP 6 Saturn/Venus Taurus/Libra
ISFP 9 Venus Libra/Taurus
ISTJ 6/1 Saturn/Mercury Capricorn/Virgo
ISFJ 2 Moon Cancer
ESTP 8 Mars/Saturn Aries
ESFP 7 Jupiter/Venus Sagittarius/Pisces
ESTJ 6/8 Saturn/Mars Capricorn
ESFJ 2 Moon/Jupiter Cancer
OK, now you have completely lost me! I think I need to read the rest of the posts.
Chakra system and world tree
Chakras and Planets/Signs: traditional rulers, Enneagram
Chakra One-base of spine-survival Saturn 6
Chakra Two-sexual centers-pleasure Jupiter 7
Chakra Three-solar plexus-power Mars 8
Chakra Four-heart-love Venus 9
Chakra Five-throat-expression Mercury 1
Chakra Six-third Eye-intuitive vision Moon 2, 4
Chakra Seven-crown-Sun 3, 5
Alternate Chakra rulers, and links to Sephiroth of the Kaballah
Ch1 Earth/Pluto S.10-world/S.9-foundation
Ch2 Venus and Mars S.8-glory
Ch3 Sun S.7-victory
Ch4 Moon S.6-beauty
Ch5 Jupiter S.4-mercy
Saturn S.5-justice
Ch6 Neptune - S.3-understanding
Ch7 Uranus - S.2-wisdom
chakras above head - Pluto, etc. - S.1-crown
Enneagram, Planets, Signs/Seasons, Kaballah, and Kundalini Chakras
The signs of the zodiac represent the Sun's seasonal movement between the Tropic of Cancer (Summer in northern hemisphere) and the Tropic of Capricorn (Winter in northern hemisphere)
6 Saturn Ch 1 Aquarius/Capricorn (Winter, 4th Turning)
7 Jupiter Ch 2 Pisces/Sagittarius
8 Mars Ch 3 Aries/Scorpio (Sunrise, 1st Turning)
9 Venus Ch 4 Taurus/Libra (Sunset, 3rd Turning)
1 Mercury Ch 5 Gemini/Virgo
2,4 Moon Ch 6 Cancer (Summer, 2nd Turning)
3,5 Sun Ch 7 Leo (Summer, 2nd Turning)
North/South Axis Winter/Summer Cancer/Capricorn
(this is the polar axis of the world tree and caduseus symbol)
It is the axis of communion, grounding, and energy sources (E/I);
aka the tree of life; the backbone of the Chakras;
Up and down axis on philosophy wheel.
Alan Watts: "the most basic metaphysical principle is that for every inside there's an outside, and vice versa"
Ambiguity is built in to this axis-- for example:
Spiritualist/Introversion or narcisism = Summer (Cancer)
Materialist/Extraversion = Winter (Capricorn)
East/West Axis Sunrise/Sunset Aries/Libra
(this is the two serpents of the world tree and caduseus, one yin (Sun, left brained) and one yang (Moon, right brained).
aka the tree of good and evil;
left and right, or east/west, on philosophy wheel (left brain vs. right brain).
It is the earth spinning on its axis every day, between east and west, thus twirling like a snake around the polar axis as the seasons move up and down.
It is the axis of interaction (J judging = East/P perception = West);
or Sunrise (Aries) and Sunset (Libra).
Yang - focus and action (left brain/J), Yin - openness and renunciation (right brain/P)
Alan Watts: "philosophy can be resolved into the conflict between prickles and goo"
(also T/F)
He also speaks of the difference between spotlight (focused awareness-J) and floodlight (diffuse awareness-P)
Sunrise is linked to 1st Turning- heroes in midlife, artists in youth
Summer is linked to 2nd Turning - artists in midlife, prophets in youth
Sunset is linked to 3rd Turning - prophets in midlife, nomads in youth
Winter is linked to 4th Turning - nomads in midlife, heroes in youth
Using only the daily cycle of houses, however, we get a different lineup:
1st house(sunrise) and Aries(Spring 1T) is linked to nomads ESTP
4th house(midnight) and Cancer(Summer 2T) is linked to prophets INFJ
7th house(sunset) and Libra(Fall 3T) is linked to artists ISFP
10th house(noon) and Capricorn(Winter 4T) is linked to heroes ENTJ
On the philosophy wheel, materialism (winter) is linked to bottom and nomads ESTP
spiritualism (summer) is linked to top and prophets INFJ
rational order is linked to left/east (sunrise) and heroes ENTJ
experiential flux is linked to right/west (sunset) and artists ISFP
For philosophy wheel explanations, see
http://www.california.com/~eameece/philosophycircle.htm
http://www.california.com/~eameece/questionnaire/htm
Eric:
This page has correlations:
http://www.drjontry.com/handouts/personal.htm
I won't copy it because it will lose its formatting. But INFJ is indeed assigned to Pisces. Unfortunately, many of the other correlations seem way off. For example INFP is Leo??? But ENFP is given to Scorpio. I don't know.
This is a list of the BEST horoscopes I've ever read:
Aquarius (Jan. 23 - Feb. 22) You have an inventive
mind and are inclined to be progressive. You lie a
great deal. You make the same mistakes repeatedly
because you are stupid. Everyone thinks you are a
fucking jerk.
Pisces (Feb. 23- Mar. 22) You are a pioneer type and
think most people are dickheads. You do nothing but
piss off everyone you come in contact with. YOU ARE A
PRICK.
Aries (Mar. 23- April 22) You have a wild imagination
and often think you are being followed by the FBI or
CIA. You have major influence on your friends and
people resent you for flaunting your power. You lack
confidence but are still a general bad ass.
Taurus (April 23- May 22) You are practical and
persistent. You have a dogged determination and work
like hell. Most people think you are stubborn and
bullheaded. You are nothing but a goddamned COMMUNIST.
Gemini (May 23- June 22) You are a quick and
intelligent thinker. People like you because you are
bisexual. You are inclined to expect too much for too
little. This is because you are a cheap bastard.
Geminis are notorious for thriving on incest.
Cancer (June 23-July 22) You are sympathetic and
understanding to other people's problems, which makes
you a sucker. You are always putting things off. That
is why you will always be on welfare and won't be
worth shit. Everyone in prison is a cancer.
Leo (July 23- Aug. 22) You consider yourself a born
leader. Others think you are an idiot. Most leos are
bullies. You are vain and cannot tolerate criticism.
Your arrogance is disgusting. Leo people are thieving
motherfuckers and enjoy masturbation more than sex.
Virgo (Aug. 23- Sept. 22) You are a logical type and
hate disorder. Your shit-picking attitude is sickening
to your friends and co-workers. You are cold and
unemotional and often fall asleep while fucking.
Virgos make good bus drivers and pimps.
Libra (Sept. 23- Oct. 22) You are the artistic type
and have a difficult time dealing with reality. If you
are a male you are probably QUEER. Chances for
employment and monetary gain are nil. Most Libra women
are whores. ALL Libras die of venereal disease.
Scorpio (Oct. 23- Nov.22) You are the worst of the
lot. You are shrewd in business and cannot be trusted.You shall achieve the pinnacle of success because of
.your total lack of ethics. You are a perfect
son-of-a-bitch. Most Scorpios are murdered.
Sagittarius(Nov. 23-Dec. 22) You are optimistic and
enthusiastic. You have a reckless tendency to rely on
your luck since you have no talent. The majority of
Sagittarians are drunks. You are a worthless piece of
shit.
Capricorn (Dec. 23- Jan. 22) You are conservative and
afraid of taking risks. You are basically chickenshit.
There has never been a Capricorn of any importance.
You should kill yourself.
...."um...(obvious confusion)...what?"
"Max"
(silence)
"It's short for Maxine"
" *brightens*....oh!"
"But nobody calls me that"
www.theonion.com
has horoscopes like this EVERY week
I found another MBTI test at www.selectsmart.com, under personality selectors, that's for free. When I took it, I tested out as an ISFJ. No surprises there, either, since I've sensed that to be true of myself for a very long time.
