Vince:


http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace124.html

(Standard disclaimers)



Presidents and Their Daddies

by Bob Wallace


In my last article I looked at George Bush's handwriting. In this one I will look at a problem that both Bush and Clinton share: problems with their fathers.

See that capital I in the first and second lines of Bush's handwriting? It tends toward the left, while all the rest of his letters go to the right. Anything that goes to the left means "to the past," "to the mother" (or "away from the father"), and "to the self." Handwriting that goes to the right means "to the future," "to the father," and "to others."



Bush has had problems with his father in the past, which he hasn't yet resolved. Since it has to do with the capital I (about which books have been written) the problem has to do with his "sense of self."

There is also an odd formation in the first capital I in the first line. On the left side there is what appears to be a clockwise loop. Tiny clockwise loops at the beginnings of letters show envy or jealousy (wanting to be important to one person). When the loop becomes large, it means "desire for responsibility" (or, wanting to be important to many people).

Bush's loop is halfway between jealousy and desire for responsibility. In the second I, in the second line, it's closer to jealousy/envy. He apparently wants to be important to lots of people to impress his father. I find this puzzling, since Bush Sr.'s handwriting shows him to be an intellectual mediocrity with little talent beyond being a bureaucrat.

The second sample of handwriting is from Bill Clinton. We've got some problems here. Clinton has many problems with an important male in his past that he has never gotten over. As a result, he is self-centered and lacks sympathy and empathy towards others. He may come across as a friendly, good ol' boy, but it's a sham. Overwhelmingly, he is interested only in what he considers right for him.



He often doesn't know the difference between right or wrong, shows social and sexual aggression (even danger), and is manipulative with and angry at women. He is a superficial thinker and lacks awareness into his problems. Oddly, he shows some generosity, although he probably uses that generosity to serve his own purposes. Overall, though, there are traits here than could land a man in prison. I wouldn't trust him one little bit.

Bush is by far the better man. Unfortunately, neither shows sufficient qualities to be truly good Presidents. Bush has too much impulsiveness and impatience, and everything Clinton does, he only does it for himself.


May 24, 2003

Openness to Experience/Intellect

(82 percentile)
You enjoy having novel experiences and seeing things in new ways.

Conscientiousness

(4 percentile)
You probably have a messy desk! (Well, the desk I'm sitting at is marginally tidy, but that's only because it isn't mine. :wink: )

Extraversion

(66 percentile)
You are relatively social and enjoy the company of others.

Agreeableness

(81 percentile)
You are good-natured, courteous, and supportive.

Neuroticism

(39 percentile)
You are generally relaxed.

If Vince's correlations to the MBTI are accurate, then this test pegged me as an ENFP, which is what I always get on MBTI tests. Interesting.

There are links to other tests on the homepage:

http://www.outofservice.com/

For example, there is one which attempts to gauge your personality from how you represent your musical tastes:

http://www.outofservice.com/music-personality-test/

It is an interesting concept but I think they screwed it up. This comment from the FAQ page explains why:

http://www.outofservice.com/music-personality-test/faq/

6. How did we decide on the music genres?

The music genres were derived from our research on music preferences. In the past we have tried using more specific categories (e.g., Delta Blues, Harmonica Blues, etc., instead of "Blues") but we found that many respondents had trouble making distinctions, especially in categories of music they didn't particularly like. Thus, we have found that these somewhat broad labels work best. Of course, we realize this doesn't capture all genres and may blur some distinctions. Also bear in mind that this is an ongoing research program and we are continually changing and updating the categories as new findings emerge.

If they were too detailed in their choices originally, they are too general now. For example, I don't think that people who like Dixieland Jazz typically like Progressive Jazz (or vice versa), yet they link both under Jazz. Similarly, people who like traditional, classic, and honky-tonk Country typically cannot stand pop, crossover, adult contemporary Country (and vice versa), yet these are all linked together under Country. Not good. They need to find a happy medium between narrow and broad categories or change their methodology.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

BTW, the correlations with MBTI traits are that Openess to Experience corresponds to Intuition/Sensation, Conscientiousness corresponds to Judging/Perceiving, Extraversion is the same as in MBTI, and Agreeableness corresponds to Thinking/Feeling. There is no exact correspondence to Neuroticism.

Am I correct in understanding that the MBTI traits -- Intuition/Sensation, Judging/Perceiving, etc. -- correspond to Low Score/High Score in the respective B5 traits?

Assuming so, my B5 results correlate with INTP, with a somewhat weak I and N. I come out as INTJ on Myers-Briggs. Are you certain that a High Score in Conscientiousness indicates a Perceiving personality (preferring open-ended options) rather than a Judging one (requiring firm decisions/ closure)? One would think it would be the other way around, in which case I'm a perfect INTJ.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

BTW, the correlations with MBTI traits are that Openess to Experience corresponds to Intuition/Sensation, Conscientiousness corresponds to Judging/Perceiving, Extraversion is the same as in MBTI, and Agreeableness corresponds to Thinking/Feeling. There is no exact correspondence to Neuroticism.

Am I correct in understanding that the MBTI traits -- Intuition/Sensation, Judging/Perceiving, etc. -- correspond to Low Score/High Score in the respective B5 traits?

Assuming so, my B5 results correlate with INTP, with a somewhat weak I and N. I come out as INTJ on Myers-Briggs. Are you certain that a High Score in Conscientiousness indicates a Perceiving personality (preferring open-ended options) rather than a Judging one (requiring firm decisions/ closure)? One would think it would be the other way around, in which case I'm a perfect INTJ.

Your scores:

Openness to Experience: 33 (somewhat conventional)
Conscientiousness: 75 (well-organized, reliable)
Extraversion: 34 (tend to be shy)
Agreeableness: 11 (easily critical of others)
Neuroticism: 47 (not particularly nervous, nor calm)

Vince was calling that Openness to Experience axis an S to N axis, if I am not mistaken. He didn't state which pole was which but the folks at the site place Yoda at 90% on this axis and he is surely an N. 33% would be moderate S. But how strongly do these things correlate anyway? And isn't there a J/P thing going on here as well? I wouldn't place too much faith in a reliable direct correlation on this axis.

75% Conscientious means 75% J. I score about 17-20% on this axis which accords with a "messy desk" by their statements. This axis is clearly a continuum spanning P to J and it is probably pretty accurate to say that you are about 75% J.

34% Extraversion clearly means Introversion.

11% Agreeableness pretty reliably means T (F seeks harmony and agreeableness).

This paints you pretty strongly as I, T, and J. If you are an N, I would not trust the Openness axis to refute you because it may say more about J/P than S/N. In terms of J/P, it indeed paints you as a J. I would just ignore this axis for correlation purposes.

Here are my scores on the musical preference test, where the preferences reflect the personality traits they are correlated with:

65% reflective and complex music

33% edgy and aggressive music

19% fun and simple music

4% energetic and upbeat music

I was frankly surprised how low I scored in "fun and simple" but did not expect to score so highly in "edgy and aggressive." But it's possible that, to some extent, people's musical tastes represent their shadow sides (what is hidden or not acknowledged). An example would be a quiet, peaceloving person who doesn't want to acknowledge his or her angry impulses; these may only come through in their fondness for aggressive music such as metal, rap, or punk.

Still, my highest score in "reflective and complex" definitely fits me.

ENFJ: "Busybody"
Life's backseat drivers. They seem to know just what's wrong with everybody else's life and have a plan to fix it.

INFJ: "Messiah"
Characterized by the burning desire to change the world, which desperately needs everyone to be NF.

ENFP: "Muckraker"
Creator of hype, distortion, and the perversion of media of information to be wallows of mindless emotionalism.

INFP: "Fanatic"
Always searching for an Answer with a capital A. Unlike the INFJ, they are usually openminded enough to realize the current one isn't good enough after a few years.

ENTJ: "Tyrant"
Knows better than everyone how things should be done and works tirelessly to obtain the power to make it happen that way.

INTJ: "Crackpot"
All facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better.

ENTP: "Frankenstein"
The salvation of the world is to be found in this new nanotronic frannistan, of which he just happens to have an almost-working model...

INTP: "Nerd"
What? you mean people actually talk to each other using mouths and ears instead of keyboards????

ESTJ: "Stuffed Shirt"
No imagination, no flexibility, no common sense, no capacity for tolerance of others with different priorities.

ISTJ: "Bean Counter"
Like the ESTJ but with less vision.

ESFJ: "Gossip"
Like the Busybody, but characterized by the urge to backstab instead of trying to help.

ISFJ: "Sidekick"
Doesn't need much meaning in life, just a person (or baby or pet or car) to spend all their time ministering to.

ESTP: "Beer Drinker"
Loud, crude, plays team sports, kisses and tells. These are the people beer commercials are made for.

ESFP: "Clown"
Always the class troublemaker, they have no respect for anybody or anything. Good at snide wisecracks.

ISTP: "Assasin"
Hates people, and is good at killing them. Young ISTP's are good at killing pictures of people in video games.

ISFP: "Snob"
Revels in the elaborate sensations of wine and paintings and music that are completely indistinguishable to ordinary people. Likes flowers.

Originally Posted by Xoomer

Here are my scores on the musical preference test, where the preferences reflect the personality traits they are correlated with:

65% reflective and complex music

33% edgy and aggressive music

19% fun and simple music

4% energetic and upbeat music

I was frankly surprised how low I scored in "fun and simple" but did not expect to score so highly in "edgy and aggressive." But it's possible that, to some extent, people's musical tastes represent their shadow sides (what is hidden or not acknowledged).

I don't think it has anything to do with the "shadow," rather the test needs a lot of work. I like the concept but their genres are too general and I question their basic categories since my personal tastes often defy their linkages. Read your interpretation and look at the genres they have linked under each category. Do you agree with them that Jazz belongs with Classical, for example? I love Classical but I have never liked Progressive Jazz. Whatever appeals to me about Classical is absent in Progressive Jazz. This causes me to question whether they have even arrived at meaningful categories for evaluation purposes.

He also wants to be impulsive, but it's held in check by his intelligence, his analytical ability and his emotional stability.

This quote from the handwriting analyst means that it is not so clear that Bush is "impulsive." Idealism and the desire to make things better correlates with Type One which correlates with J. I would say in general idealism is NFJ. Bush is not really an "idealist," but such idealism as he has would probably be accounted for by an FJ temperament. So I still think he's ESFJ.

It could be ESFP though, as the enthusiastic and unreflective frat boy. It could be he has developed more J later in life. He clearly is decisive as a leader and doesn't like to waste time making decisions. Is that decisiveness, or impulsiveness? P or J? I'm not so sure.

If he's ESFJ that would correlate with Type Two. That is the helper (also ISFJ, clearly). ESFP would correlate with Type Seven. He is clearly somewhat aggressive, so 7w8 sounds good. Maybe 2w1 or 2w3. Pride would have to come from Type Three, not Type Two.

Originally Posted by eameece

He also wants to be impulsive, but it's held in check by his intelligence, his analytical ability and his emotional stability.

This quote from the handwriting analyst means that it is not so clear that Bush is "impulsive."

True, but the author restates multuple times elsewhere that Junior IS impulsive thereby clarifying what he means. He means to say that Junior IS impulsive but can restrain his impulses to a degree (probably due to age, I would think).

It could be ESFP though, as the enthusiastic and unreflective frat boy.

That is plainly all that he is.

He clearly is decisive as a leader and doesn't like to waste time making decisions.

That's because he doesn't make any decisions. He (attempts to) read what is placed in front of him, reflecting the decisions made by others.

Pride would have to come from Type Three, not Type Two.

Pride is correlated with Two. Vainglory or Deceit is correlated with Three. If you go all the way back to Evagrius, Vainglory was distinct from Pride, and there were eight vices instead of seven. Vainglory was folded into Pride centuries later (and some other changes to the "Sins" were made as well).

"The Big Five" personality characteristics that are not dependent on mood are:
Conscientiousness
Agreeableness
Neuroticism
Openness
Extroversion

Here is an online Big Five test:


www.outofservice.com/bigfive

A fine test! Note that the percentiles are "graded on a curve" and compare you to others who have taken the test so far; they are not raw scores based on your answers.

My results were:
Openness to new experience: 67% (N)
Conscientiousness: 12% (P)
Extraversion: 37% (I)
Agreeableness: 12% (T?)
Neurotic: 69%

My type is INTP, so that fits. The correlation of F/T to agreeableness could only be approximate; this polarity involves more than just agreeable or critical. But it's a partial fit I'm sure. I put down that I'm tender minded, yet I only come out 12%, so I wonder how close the connection between Agreeable and F is.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

There are links to other tests on the homepage:

http://www.outofservice.com/

For example, there is one which attempts to gauge your personality from how you represent your musical tastes:

http://www.outofservice.com/music-personality-test/

My results:
Reflective and complex: 49%
Edgy and agressive: 7%
Fun and simple: 4%
Energetic and upbeat: 7%

I think it reflects more my opinion about most current music, more than my personality. I agree with Seadog about Jazz and Blues as "reflective and complex" (not very). I put down that my description being low on "fun and simple" fit pretty well; the rest only somewhat.

Originally Posted by eameece

A fine test! Note that the percentiles are "graded on a curve" and compare you to others who have taken the test so far; they are not raw scores based on your answers.

My results were:
Openness to new experience: 67% (N)
Conscientiousness: 12% (P)
Extraversion: 37% (I)
Agreeableness: 12% (T?)
Neurotic: 69%

How about that! This is about what I generally get. Ranges:

Openness to Experience/Intellect: 54-61%
Conscientiousness: 14-20%
Extraversion: 40-43%
Agreeableness: 11-17%
Neuroticism: 64-74%

My type is INTP, so that fits.

I agree.

The correlation of F/T to agreeableness could only be approximate; this polarity involves more than just agreeable or critical. But it's a partial fit I'm sure. I put down that I'm tender minded, yet I only come out 12%, so I wonder how close the connection between Agreeable and F is.

What else would be included in this axis?

The correlation I really question is Openness to New Experience as S/N. Look at the descriptions they use. Are all S's uncreative? Are all Ns creative? This axis is as much J/P as it is S/N. In fact, I suspect it is either J/P or SJ/NP.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

What else would be included in this axis?

Well, for starters, whether you rely on thinking or feeling! A lot of questions on MBTI address this directly, not agreeableness per se. Do you rely on your head or your heart? That's the question on T/F. Do you think things out, or trust how it feels? F is not just a preference for harmony in relating to others, but a reliance upon whether what you decide will bring you harmony of feeling or not.

The correlation I really question is Openness to New Experience as S/N. Look at the descriptions they use. Are all S's uncreative? Are all Ns creative? This axis is as much J/P as it is S/N. In fact, I suspect it is either J/P or SJ/NP.

You have a point. I'm not sure whether the actual questions on this outofservice.com test relate to a perceiving or judging approach to decision-making, as do J/P on MBTI. The questions do seem to relate more to liking for possibilities, rather than what's on the surface. So not exact, but a correlation.

You are stuck on the idea that Bush is still only a frat boy and others make all the decisions for him. I do think he's the figurehead of a cabal; but nothing is that black and white. It's obvious that he likes to make decisions and stick with them, and that he can orgaqnize his affairs and analyze. But he might be rather impulsive in his decision-making process. It clearly is not the result of careful thinking-- which is part of J too.

But we've been over this before; I know your opinion on Bush's type!

I took the Star Wars test too, since I was pegged as a character by you guys. But O-Wan Kenobe of whatever his name is is not listed. The correlations on this came out:

Yoda (openness/N) 90 percentile (N)
C-3PO (neurotic) 66
Wampas (Extraversion/E) 15% (I)
Hans Solo (conscientious/J) 10% (P)
Palpatine (agreeable/F) 8% (T)

I wonder if they hold ENFJ as the ideal type?

Originally Posted by eameece

You are stuck on the idea that Bush is still only a frat boy and others make all the decisions for him. I do think he's the figurehead of a cabal; but nothing is that black and white. It's obvious that he likes to make decisions and stick with them, and that he can orgaqnize his affairs and analyze.

I don't think this is obvious. I think it is obvious that he does what he is told. He wouldn't know how to make such decisions on his own and he knows it full well.

But he might be rather impulsive in his decision-making process. It clearly is not the result of careful thinking-- which is part of J too.

It's more than just that. An example off the top of my head: consider the "cute" nicknames he assigns to people as a memory aid. I think creativity of this sort is definitely a P trait as opposed to a J one. There are many other examples.

I took the Star Wars test too, since I was pegged as a character by you guys. But O-Wan Kenobe of whatever his name is is not listed. The correlations on this came out:

Yoda (openness/N) 90 percentile (N)
C-3PO (neurotic) 66
Wampas (Extraversion/E) 15% (I)
Hans Solo (conscientious/J) 10% (P)
Palpatine (agreeable/F) 8% (T)

Interesting! Our results are very close. The main difference is that I am slightly more E such that at times I come out with Wampas and at other times with Ben Kenobi.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Vince was calling that Openness to Experience axis an S to N axis, if I am not mistaken. He didn't state which pole was which but the folks at the site place Yoda at 90% on this axis and he is surely an N. 33% would be moderate S. But how strongly do these things correlate anyway? And isn't there a J/P thing going on here as well? I wouldn't place too much faith in a reliable direct correlation on this axis.

75% Conscientious means 75% J. I score about 17-20% on this axis which accords with a "messy desk" by their statements. This axis is clearly a continuum spanning P to J and it is probably pretty accurate to say that you are about 75% J.

34% Extraversion clearly means Introversion.

11% Agreeableness pretty reliably means T (F seeks harmony and agreeableness).

This paints you pretty strongly as I, T, and J. If you are an N, I would not trust the Openness axis to refute you because it may say more about J/P than S/N. In terms of J/P, it indeed paints you as a J. I would just ignore this axis for correlation purposes.

Thanks, Seadog. But the more posts I read from you guys, the more I believe that Openness to Experience does =N. The flaw may be in the way the questions on the B5 test relating to Openness are worded. My score in this area was only 33, however I would not consider myself a close-minded person at all. In the 1990s and 2000s I moved to a new city not once-- but twice, learned how to sail and ski, eagerly bought a home computer and use it avidly, bought and sold my a home of my own, visited Europe on my own, got married (and divorced), embarked on a long-distance relationship and periodically attend my girlfriend's synagogue. I also love trying different kinds of ethnic and regional cuisines. However, I recall one of the B5 questions asked about extreme sports such as bungee-jumping, which (along with skydiving) I would NOT be inclined to do.

I don't believe that one is averse to new experiences simply because he/she is nonpartial to extreme risk taking, so I'd say the test is flawed there. If I had to guess, I'd say my Openness to Experience score ought to be around 65 or so.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Thanks, Seadog. But the more posts I read from you guys, the more I believe that Openness to Experience does =N. The flaw may be in the way the questions on the B5 test relating to Openness are worded. My score in this area was only 33, however I would not consider myself a close-minded person at all. In the 1990s and 2000s I moved to a new city not once-- but twice, learned how to sail and ski, eagerly bought a home computer and use it avidly, bought and sold my a home of my own, visited Europe on my own, got married (and divorced), embarked on a long-distance relationship and periodically attend my girlfriend's synagogue. I also love trying different kinds of ethnic and regional cuisines. However, I recall one of the B5 questions asked about extreme sports such as bungee-jumping, which (along with skydiving) I would NOT be inclined to do.

I don't believe that one is averse to new experiences simply because he/she is nonpartial to extreme risk taking, so I'd say the test is flawed there. If I had to guess, I'd say my Openness to Experience score ought to be around 65 or so.

You might take that Star Wars test on the same site. It scores you on the same five axes but there is a notable difference on the Openness axis, for some reason. Eric and I scored in the 60% range on Openness on the B5 test, but at 90% on the Star Wars test, while most of the other axes remained constant. You might well get a substantially different Openness score also.

What we really need to make sense of that Openness axis is for an xSxP to take it. If it represents S/N, then the SP should score low. If it represents J/P, then the SP ought to score high. But I cannot think of any SPs available here to take the thing. Actually, I suspect that Nature Spirit tests as an ISFP but she would never admit it because she "doesn't believe in categorizing people." Hehe. Nevertheless, it would be interesting to see how she comes out on that axis. :wink:

Originally Posted by Kiff '61

Originally Posted by Mike Alexander '59

Everytime I see this thread I think of Manpower Business Training Institute It's in Milwaukee and they used to run tons of commericals when I was a kid in which the MBTI acronym was stressed.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I remember those!

yeah, it was eddie doucette who did the ads, if i remember correctly.


TK

Nature Spirit???

Xoomer???

I miss good ol' XoE and Heliotrope! :cry:

Originally Posted by A Nature Spirit

What about Stonewall? Don't you miss him too?

I shed my civilian name when I started studying to become a Jedi Knight.

What??? Stonewall isn't himself anymore either???? :x :o

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by A Nature Spirit

What about Stonewall? Don't you miss him too?

I shed my civilian name when I started studying to become a Jedi Knight.

What??? Stonewall isn't himself anymore either???? :x :o

Nope, he's Seadog '66.

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by A Nature Spirit

What about Stonewall? Don't you miss him too?

I shed my civilian name when I started studying to become a Jedi Knight.

What??? Stonewall isn't himself anymore either???? :x :o

Hell... even I gained four extra digits!

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

For example, there is one which attempts to gauge your personality from how you represent your musical tastes:

http://www.outofservice.com/music-personality-test/

My scores:

98% Enjoys reflective and complex music

73% Enjoys edgy and aggressive music

58% Enjoys fun and simple music

26% Enjoys energetic and upbeat music

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by A Nature Spirit

What about Stonewall? Don't you miss him too?

I shed my civilian name when I started studying to become a Jedi Knight.

What??? Stonewall isn't himself anymore either???? :x :o

Nope, he's Seadog '66.

Kevin! You really didn't know?
Well, now you know.

Originally Posted by Xoomer

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

Originally Posted by A Nature Spirit

What about Stonewall? Don't you miss him too?

I shed my civilian name when I started studying to become a Jedi Knight.

What??? Stonewall isn't himself anymore either???? :x :o

Nope, he's Seadog '66.

Kevin! You really didn't know?
Well, now you know.

No, I didn't! Go figure.

Why did u change your handle, Susan?