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Thread: MBTI - Page 36







Post#876 at 06-29-2003 03:04 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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06-29-2003, 03:04 AM #876
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Here's something about the differences between the male and female brains that bears on the T-F dimension of the MBTI. It also goes off on a tangent about autism, which is still interesting, although not pertinent to the MBTI, although it is pertinent to the increased diagnosis rate for autism among Millennials.

My comments are in italics.

Standard disclaimers apply.

They just can't help it
What kind of brain do you have? There really are big differences between the male and female brain, says Simon Baron-Cohen. And they could help explain conditions such as autism

Simon Baron-Cohen
Wednesday April 16 2003
The Guardian


Are there essential differences between the male and female brain? My theory is that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and that the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems. I call it the empathising-systemising (E-S) theory.

And the MBTI calls it T-F. The majority of women are F; the majority of men are T. This is not a new insight, although the neurology may now explain what was inside the "black box" postulated by other theories of thought and personality.

Empathising is the drive to identify another person's emotions and thoughts, and to respond to these with an appropriate emotion. The empathiser intuitively figures out how people are feeling, and how to treat people with care and sensitivity. Systemising is the drive to analyse and explore a system, to extract underlying rules that govern the behaviour of a system; and the drive to construct systems. The systemiser intuitively figures out how things work, or what the underlying rules are controlling a system. Systems can be as varied as a pond, a vehicle, a computer, a maths equation, or even an army unit. They all operate on inputs and deliver outputs, using rules.

According to this theory, a person (whether male or female) has a particular "brain type". There are three common brain types: for some individuals, empathising is stronger than systemising. This is called the female brain, or a brain of type E. For other individuals, systemising is stronger than empathising. This is called the male brain, or a brain of type S. Yet other individuals are equally strong in their systemising and empathising. This is called the "balanced brain", or a brain of type B. There are now tests you can take to see which type (E, S, or B) you are. Not which type you'd like to be, but which you actually are.

A key feature of this theory is that your sex cannot tell you which type of brain you have. Not all men have the male brain, and not all women have the female brain. The central claim of this new theory is only that on average, more males than females have a brain of type S, and more females than males have a brain of type E.

So are females better at empathising? This theory rings true at an anecdotal level. For example, we've always known that people choose different things to read in the newsagent on the railway platform or in the airport departure lounge. Women are more likely to go to the magazine rack featuring fashion, romance, beauty, intimacy, emotional problems and agony-aunts,

"Agony-aunts"? How quaintly British! Would Dear Abby and Ann Landers have qualified?

counselling, relationship advice, and parenting. Men are more likely to go to a magazine rack featuring computers, cars, boats, photography, DIY, sport, hi-fi, action, guns, tools, and the outdoors.

And we all have anecdotal impressions about typical hobbies for men and women. Men are more likely to spend hours happily engaged in car or motorbike maintenance, light aircraft piloting, sailing, bird- or trainspotting, mathematics, tweaking their sound systems, computer games and programming. Women are more likely to spend hours happily engaged in coffee mornings or pot-luck suppers, advising friends on relationship problems, or caring for friends, neighbours, or pets.

But the E-S theory goes beyond such anecdotal evidence to pull together the scientific evidence, and investigate the origins of these differences.

The evidence for a female advantage in empathising comes from many different directions. For example, studies show that when children play together with a little movie player that has only one eye-piece, boys tend to get more of their fair share of looking down the eye piece. They just shoulder the girls out of the way. Less empathy, more self-centred. Or if you leave out a bunch of those big plastic cars that kids can ride on, what you see is that more little boys play the "ramming" game. They deliberately drive the vehicle into another child. The little girls ride around more carefully, avoiding the other children more often. This suggests the girls are being more sensitive to others.

Baby girls, as young as 12 months old, respond more empathically to the distress of other people, showing greater concern through more sad looks, sympathetic vocalisations and comforting. This echoes what you find in adulthood: more women report frequently sharing the emotional distress of their friends. Women also spend more time comforting people.

When asked to judge when someone might have said something potentially hurtful, girls score higher from at least seven years old. Women are also more sensitive to facial expressions. They are better at decoding non-verbal communication, picking up subtle nuances from tone of voice or facial _expression, or judging a person's character.

There is also a sex difference in aggression. Males tend to show far more "direct" aggression such as pushing, hitting and punching. Females tend to show more "indirect" (or "relational", covert) aggression. This includes gossip, exclusion, and bitchy remarks. It could be said that to punch someone in the face or to wound them physically requires an even lower level of empathy than a verbal snipe.

I generally display more "female" aggression. I guess that's why I like the Internet!

Two other ways to reveal a person's empathising skill are to see how they (as a newcomer) join a group of strangers, and to see how they (as a host) react to a new person joining their group. This has been cleverly investigated in children by introducing a new boy or girl to a group who are already playing together. If the newcomer is female, she is more likely to stand and watch for a while, to check out what's going on, and then try to fit in with the ongoing activity. This usually leads to the newcomer being readily accepted into the group. If the newcomer is a boy, he is more likely to hijack the game by trying to change it, directing everyone's attention on to him. And even by the age of six, girls are better at being a host. They are more attentive to the newcomer. Boys often just ignore the newcomer's attempt to join in. They are more likely to carry on with what they were already doing.

How early are such sex differences in empathy evident? Certainly, by 12 months , girls make more eye contact than boys. But a new study carried out in my lab at Cambridge University shows that at birth, girls look longer at a face, and boys look longer at a suspended mechanical mobile. Furthermore, the Cambridge team found that how much eye contact children make is in part determined by a biological factor: prenatal testosterone. This has been demonstrated by measuring this hormone in amniotic fluid.

All this adds up to a large amount of evidence for a female advantage in empathising, with at least some biological determinants. What about the claimed male advantage in systemising?

Boys, from toddlerhood onwards, are more interested in cars, trucks, planes, guns and swords, building blocks, constructional toys, and mechanical toys - systems. They seem to love putting things together, to build toy towers or towns or vehicles. Boys also enjoy playing with toys that have clear functions, buttons to press, things that will light up, or devices that will cause another object to move.

You see the same sort of pattern in the adult workplace. Some occupations are almost entirely male. Think of metal-working, weapon-making, crafting musical instruments, or the construction industries, such as boat-building. The focus of these occupations is on constructing systems. Professions such as maths, physics, and engineering, which require high sys temising, are also largely male-chosen disciplines.

Some psychological tests also show the male advantage in systemising. For example, in the mental rotation test, you're shown two shapes, and asked if one is a rotation or a mirror image of the other. Males are quicker and more accurate on this test. Reading maps has been used as another test of systemising. Men can learn a route in fewer trials, just from looking at a map, correctly recalling more details about direction and distance. If you ask boys to make a map of an area that they have only visited once, their maps have a more accurate layout of the features in the environment, eg, showing which landmark is south-east of another.

And why men won't ask for directions.

If you ask people to put together a 3D mechanical apparatus in an assembly task, on average, men score higher. Boys are also better at constructing block buildings from 2D blueprints. These are constructional systems. And in Nick Hornby's novel, High Fidelity, the male protagonist is obsessed with his record collection, and works in a second-hand record shop catering for (almost all male) customers searching for that one missing item in their collections of music. Collections (of albums, or anything else) are often highly systematic in nature.

The male preference for focusing on systems again is evident very early. Our Cambridge study found that at one year old, little boys showed a stronger preference to watch a film of cars (mechanical systems), than a film of a person's face (with a lot of emotional _expression). Little girls showed the opposite preference. And at one day old, little boys look for longer at a mechanical mobile.

We, of course, know that with time, culture and socialisation do play a role in determining a male brain (stronger interest in systems) or female brain (stronger interest in empathy). But these studies strongly suggest that biology also partly determines this.

Behavior, including learned behavior, is also biology. "Biological" is not synonymous with "genetic" or even "innate". Sorry, as someone trained to be a behavioral biologist, I have to get that pet peeve off my chest!

Some of the most convincing evidence for biological causes comes from studies of the effects of hormones. There was a time when women were prescribed a synthetic female hormone (diethylstilbestrol), in an attempt to prevent repeated spontaneous miscarriages. Boys born to such women are likely to show more female-typical, empathising behaviours, such as caring for dolls. And if a female rat is injected at birth with testosterone, she shows faster, more accurate maze learning, compared with a female rat who has not been given such an injection.

Some important lessons have been learnt from studies of clinical conditions. Male babies born with IHH (idiopathic hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism) have very small testes (and therefore low levels of testosterone) and they are worse at spatial aspects of systemising, relative to normal males. Other male babies born with androgen insensitivity (AI) syndrome (testosterone is an androgen) are also worse at systemising. Compare these with female babies born with CAH (congenital adrenal hyperplasia), who have high levels of androgens and who have enhanced spatial systemising.

But even if you leave aside these clinical conditions, there is evidence for the effects of hormones on the mind in the typical child: our own study found that toddlers who had lower foetal testosterone had higher levels of eye contact. Presumably eye contact may have something to do with sociability and empathising. And a group of Canadian researchers found that the higher your prenatal testosterone the better you do on the mental rotation (systemising) test.

Should a theory like this be a cause of concern? Some people may worry that this is suggesting one sex is better than the other, but a moment's reflection should allay this fear. The theory is saying that, on average, males and females differ in what they are drawn to and what they find easy, but that both sexes have their strengths and their weaknesses. Neither sex is superior overall.

Others may worry that a theory like this stereotypes the sexes. But we need to distinguish stereotyping from the study of sex differences. The study simply looks at males and females as two groups, and asks why on average, differences are seen. There is no harm in that, and even some important scientific advances that can come out of it. Stereotyping, on the other hand, is when a characteristic of a group is assumed to apply to an individual, and this is potentially discriminating and harmful. The E-S theory does not stereotype. Rather, it seeks to explain why individuals are typical or atypical for their sex.

What are the potential new insights from a theory like this? It may help us understand the childhood neurological conditions of autism and Asperger syndrome, which appear to be an extreme of the male brain.

And may explain why both conditions are far more prevalent in males than females, although females with these conditions exist, too.

FWIW, anti-social personality disorder (ASPD) is also both much more common in males than females and characterized by a lack of empathy, although the lack of social understanding apparent in people with autism and Aspergers is not present in those with anti-social personality disorder. Neither is the rigidity associated with autism. Those with ASPD show at least some social understanding (and can even be superficially charming) and tend to impulsivity.

Hmm. I'd say ASPD is much more of an extreme male brain--or at least, a very different kind of extreme male brain--than autism. It's also more of a danger to society!


Such individuals may have impairments in empathising alongside normal or even talented systemising. The theory also predicts the existence of the mirror-image of autism or Asperger syndrome, namely, the extreme female brain. Science has not even begun to investigate what such people are like, but we know they must have impairments in systemising, alongside normal or even talented empathising.

Interestingly, the fact that this condition exists in theory, but has not been described in a recognizable fashion (perhaps hystrionic personality disorder might qualify) suggests that lack of empathy is far more of a problem than a lack of rationality and impersonal practicality.

Finally, the theory delineates two key dimensions of individual differences - empathising and systemising - that exist among any group of children, so that parents and educators can become more tolerant of difference.


Is there an explanation for autism?


I argue that people with autism may have an extreme of the male brain - good at systemising, very bad at empathising - and that studying autism with E-S theory in mind, can help increase our understanding of the condition.

Two largest sub-groups of autism are classic autism, and Asperger syndrome. Both share certain features: a difficulty in developing social relationships; a difficulty in communication; the presence of unusually strong, narrow interests; and a strong adherence to routines.

They differ in that in classic autism, the person might have an IQ at any point on the scale (even in the learning disabled range) and the person invariably had a language delay as a toddler. In Asperger syndrome, the person is always at least average in IQ (and may be well above average), and talked on time as a toddler. Autism spectrum conditions affect about one child in every 200, with males being far more likely than to be diagnosed.

What's interesting is that the obsessional interests that people with autism spectrum conditions show often focus on a system. It may be an intense preoccupation with light switches in the house, or running water from the taps in different sinks in the house. For their long-suffering parents, these "obsessions" can be very hard to cope.

But according to the E-S theory the child may simply be focusing on the tiny details in the system - how fast the water flows when the tap is turned to different angles, or which lights go on when different switches are in the up or down position - using their intelligence to work out the underlying rules that govern the system. The characteristic approach they take is to home in on a topic or area of knowledge, and comb it for every detail, until they feel they've covered most if not all of the information available. The "obsession" might last weeks, months, or even years. And then typically, they move on to a new area to master.

In a British book on Aspergers I read four years ago, "Trainspotting" (identifying trains) was suggested as a hobby of people with Aspergers.

Some parents and teachers will indulge the child so that the child can follow their obsessional interests all the way. And just sometimes, this can lead to great achievement or the development of expertise. Other parents or teachers - with good reason - feel a need to interrupt the child's obsessional focus. But the E-S theory sees individuals with autism spectrum conditions as having a learning style that prefers depth over breadth, and accuracy or exactness over gist.

So much for their strong systemising. What about their impaired empathising? This is the area that is likely to lead them into trouble, or to leave them disabled. Difficulty empathising translates into a whole set of hurdles. You might be last person to get the point of a joke, which can leave you feeling like an outsider. You might end up saying something that another person finds hurtful or offensive, when that was the last thing you intended. You might misinterpret other people's actions and motives. And you might just not pick up how others see you, and hence not know how you come across as odd or different. People's insincerity or subtle emotions may just go straight over your head.

Such difficulties can lead to a child with autism or Asperger syndrome being neglected, or even ostracised by their peer group. Or worse, teased and bullied. Tragically, such bullying often goes undetected by teachers and even parents, so that the child suffers in silence at school for years and years. During the teens, this difficulty in fitting into a peer group can lead the person with Asperger syndrome to become depressed.

No wonder educators are now urgently waking up to the existence of Asperger syndrome, since if it can be better recognised, many of these secondary difficulties might be avoided. And the hope is that a better understanding of such conditions - the extreme male brain - may lead teachers to be more tolerant of the very different learning style such children possess. If nurtured, systemising is not only a valuable contribution, but can even result in a refreshingly original way of thinking and seeing the world.

Simon Baron-Cohen is the director of the Autism Research Centre, Cambridge University. His new book, the Essential Difference: Men, Women and the Extreme Male Brain, will be published by Penguin on May 1 For more information, visit the National Autistic Society UK website www.nas.org.uk

Well, that explains both the connection he makes between "male brain" and autism and the plea for understanding of those with autism and Aspergers.

Further reading

Sex and Cognition, Doreen Kimura, MIT Press,1999

Mindblindness: an essay on autism and theory of mind, Simon Baron-Cohen, MIT Press/Bradford Books, 1995

Male, Female: The Evolution of Human Sex Differences, David C Geary, American Psychological Society, 1998

The Two Sexes: growing up apart, coming together, Eleanor MacCoby Harvard University Press, 1998
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#877 at 07-04-2003 08:55 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Bovine Master's Big 5

My results were:

Openness to new experience: 88%

Conscientiousness: 64%

Extraversion: 44%

Agreeableness: 50%

Neurotic: 9%

My type is INTP...HTH







Post#878 at 07-04-2003 12:01 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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Mine were:
Openness to experience: 16% (S)
Conscientiousness: 35% (P)
Extraversion: 9% (I)
Agreeableness: 44% (T)
Neuroticism: 43%

ISTP
I usually get ISTJ but I think I was more honest with myself on how often I actually complete tasks and so forth.
1987 INTP







Post#879 at 09-17-2003 08:31 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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You are how you sleep



Yo. Ob. Sv. is a "yearner". HTH







Post#880 at 09-17-2003 08:36 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Is there an MBTI-type connection?








Post#881 at 09-17-2003 09:08 AM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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FWIW, I generally go to sleep in the foetal position, but I wake up in the soldier position more often than not.







Post#882 at 09-17-2003 09:26 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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I'm none of the above. My sleeping position is a cross between fetal and yearner, with the lower leg straight and the upper leg (depending on which side I'm lying on) curled.

I shouldn't think my position is that unusual, but it's not mentioned. Oh well. I guess I can't be put in a box. :wink:
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#883 at 09-17-2003 01:00 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Re: Is there an MBTI-type connection?

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
'cause i'm a free...
free faller :-P







Post#884 at 09-18-2003 07:17 PM by Zarathustra [at Where the Northwest meets the Southwest joined Mar 2003 #posts 9,198]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
I'm none of the above. My sleeping position is a cross between fetal and yearner, with the lower leg straight and the upper leg (depending on which side I'm lying on) curled.

I shouldn't think my position is that unusual, but it's not mentioned. Oh well. I guess I can't be put in a box. :wink:
Me too! You described it perfectly.

I notice that I also secondarily dabble in Starfish and Soldier, as my preferred mode (aka "The Wonk Position") sometimes hurts my back.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.







Post#885 at 09-19-2003 11:22 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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I generally use either the foetus or the yearner, depending on what is most comfortable to begin with. I thrash around violently when attempting to fall asleep, frequently switching between the two because if I do not fall asleep fast enough after assuming a position, the position becomes too uncomfortable and/or sweaty and I have to switch.

I usually wake up somewhere between the freefaller and yearner. I never remember exactly which one, but I know I don't sleep on my back because my pillow always has a wet spot from drool and/or eye watering.
1987 INTP







Post#886 at 09-20-2003 11:22 AM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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I sleep like Kiff--I always go to sleep as a fetus, but wake up as a soldier!
It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks, you make a pet out of it.
- Charles Bukowski







Post#887 at 09-20-2003 12:47 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonk
I'm none of the above. My sleeping position is a cross between fetal and yearner, with the lower leg straight and the upper leg (depending on which side I'm lying on) curled.

I shouldn't think my position is that unusual, but it's not mentioned. Oh well. I guess I can't be put in a box. :wink:
That's the position I go to sleep in too.







Post#888 at 09-20-2003 05:20 PM by Zola [at Massachusetts, USA joined Jun 2003 #posts 198]
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Re: You are how you sleep

Quote Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari
Yo. Ob. Sv. is a "yearner". HTH
I must be a freak, then, because my customary sleeping position isn't among these.

I lie on my side with one leg straight out and one leg curled up against my chest. (it varies which leg, either is comfortable)

Of course, I have Ehler's Danlos and my joints get very sore. That particular position gives my hips a gentle stretch and doesn't put too much pressure on any particular area...
1962 Cohort

Life With Zola







Post#889 at 09-23-2003 08:12 AM by Kenkajin [at joined Sep 2003 #posts 1]
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INTP 1971
Starfish sleeper
Shadowy figure behind the scenes.







Post#890 at 09-23-2003 11:32 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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I'm a fetal position sleeper probably 80 percent of the time. But I often start off as a soldier (lying on my back) before I actually go to sleep, then go fetal as soon as I begin to doze off.

Then, in the morning between the first and second rings of the snooze alarm, I often go back to sleep on my back again.

This pattern seems to have developed over the past 10-15 years, as when I was a child and young adult I nearly always slept on my side like a log.

Interestingly, while taking an afternoon nap I'm usually a freefaller!

What sort of personality does all this make me???







Post#891 at 09-24-2003 12:03 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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I just re-took the Myers-Briggs test for the first time in several years and came out as an ISTJ....with a very weak S, moderate I and J, strong T. This I find just a tad unnerving, since I've always religiously identified myself as an INTJ. Perhaps it is an indication that my personality is evolving, towards details and away from the big picture.







Post#892 at 09-24-2003 08:18 AM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Quote Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59
I just re-took the Myers-Briggs test for the first time in several years and came out as an ISTJ....with a very weak S, moderate I and J, strong T. This I find just a tad unnerving, since I've always religiously identified myself as an INTJ. Perhaps it is an indication that my personality is evolving, towards details and away from the big picture.
Yeah, but didn't you describe yourself as a borderline "N/S"? Borderline scores can flip around -- mine did! :wink:
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#893 at 09-24-2003 12:39 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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I've been paying more attention to my sleeping positions lately, and I have to correct my earlier post. I'm actually much more of a "yearner" than a "foetus." FWIW.







Post#894 at 02-15-2004 02:40 AM by Vince Lamb '59 [at Irish Hills, Michigan joined Jun 2001 #posts 1,997]
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This topic has lain fallow for five months? Wow!

Here's something from the mailing list. Standard disclaimers apply.

ESTJ seeks INFP: Looking for love through personality
tests


By Shirleen Holt
Seattle Times business reporter

If Steve Marino sees an introvert in a personals ad,
he'll probably keep clicking.

He's an ENTJ, an extroverted doer. His ex-wife is an
INTP, an introverted thinker. They had lots of things
in common ? except the traits that mattered in the
long-run.

"She loves to go relax with a book. To me that's
deathly boring. I get recharged by playing soccer and
interacting with a lot of people."

If any of this makes sense you've probably taken the
Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, a personality measurement
developed by Isabel Briggs Myers and her mother,
Katharine Cook Briggs. Today, the questionnaire is
used by 2 million people a year and in nearly 90 of
the Fortune 100 companies.

The four-letter acronyms have helped employees and
their bosses learn whether they're analytical or
intuitive, bold or cautious, sociable or loners.
They've learned what type of people they work well
with and how to work around those who baffle them.

Indeed, the thumbnail descriptors are so eerily
accurate it's no surprise that they've found new life
in the online-personals ads.

The evidence is plentiful, from mentions in Match.com
profiles ("thoughtful ISTJ seeks similar") to entire
dating sites, such as TypeTango.com and JungDate.com,
designed in large part around the Myers-Briggs or its
close companion, the Keirsey Temperament Sorter.

What's your type?


Extroverted/Introverted (E/I) ? Where we focus our
energy. Extroverts are often stimulated by being with
people; introverts are inspired by quiet reflection
and prefer to recharge alone.
Sensing/Intuitive (S/N) ? How we take in information.
Those who are sensing may prefer tangible data and
rely on their five senses; intuitives are drawn to
concepts or abstract ideas and trust their sixth
sense.

Thinking/Feeling (T/F) ? How we make decisions.
Thinkers tend to be logical, analytical and see things
in terms of principles; feelers are more visceral,
emotional and see things in terms of personal values.

Judging/Perceiving (J/P) ? How we approach life.
Judgers may prefer structure, defined goals and
decisions; perceivers like to keep their options open
and explore possibilities.




Most singles learned their type after taking the test
at work or plucking a version from a self-help book.
They're now using it to help them find a partner who
not only likes to walk on the beach, but also can
carry a lively conversation while walking on the
beach.

"I found it fascinating because it fits me to a T,"
says Marino, who took the Myers-Briggs as part of a
team-building exercise at an old job. "I know who I am
and I know the people I match well with."

So this time around, the 34-year-old college recruiter
from Bothell is going for someone closer to his type,
an E all the way.

No introverts, please

One 38-year-old single, an executive chef from
Seattle, included his type as an icebreaker.

"Instead of what's your sign, it's what's your
Myers-Briggs," says the chef, who asked to remain
anonymous. Like many involved with online dating, he's
concerned about privacy. That, and he doesn't want
certain flaws attributed to him lest they turn off a
potential match. He's an ENFP, which stands for
extroverted, intuitive, feeling, perceiving. Like
other ENFPs ? think Martin Short and Robin Williams ?
he's outgoing and funny. And he's looking for a
likeminded woman, preferably another E like his
ex-wife.

He did date one opposite type after moving here from
Texas in October, a woman he says was "really neat,"
but whose introversion became problematic.

"It was like dating my father."

Now he's careful to avoid the more reserved types.


JOHN LOK / THE SEATTLE TIMES
Jami Barnett, 29, of Renton uses her Meyers-Briggs
profile in a dating search. She says her profile
describes her as being introverted and creative.


"Some screen people out because of lack of education,
money or good looks. But if I'm reading somebody's
profile and I see an I for introvert ... next!"

That the types have jumped from the workplace to the
personals makes sense to Pepper Schwartz, a sociology
professor at the University of Washington. She used
the principles behind Myers-Briggs to develop her own
temperament-matching test for the Seattle start-up,
PerfectMatch.

"Part of the genius of Myers-Briggs is that it's not
just characteristics, it's how characteristics fit
together," Schwartz says. "It taps essential elements
that are important for teamwork. Well, that's a really
good idea for relationships as well."

Niche dating sites use MBTI

This new application for the workplace tool seems to
be lost on CPP Inc. in Palo Alto, Calif., the
publisher of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

The company, which publishes other kinds of psychology
assessments as well, doesn't track the varied uses for
MBTI, says spokeswoman Siobhan Collopy. If it did it
may be surprised.

Where to get the tests


Myers-Briggs Type Indicator: The real thing is
available through the official publisher, CPP Inc.
based in California, www.cpp.com. The individual
assessment (called the MBTI profile-preview kit),
costs $20.50. You can't take the actual assessment
online, however.
Keirsey Temperament Sorter: Based on the MBTI, but it
categorizes the 16 temperament types into four general
types: rationals, idealists, artisans and guardians.
The tool is available online through keirsey.com. It
costs $14.95-$27.95, depending on the package.

Free temperament tools: Do an Internet search under
"Myers-Briggs" and you'll find hundreds of free
knockoffs that you can take and get immediate results.
Problem is, each is written differently, so results
vary widely.



JungDate.com, TypeTango.com and Match-Marks.com are
relatively new and still rudimentary online-dating
sites that match singles according to their
temperament.

The 3-year-old Match-Marks doesn't accept personal
ads, but it does offer a Myers-Briggs tool called
LoveTypes that helps users determine their four-letter
temperament. It also matches them with the types
they'd be compatible with, and offers advice on how to
write a catchy profile based on their type.

On TypeTango, users plug in their type when they
register. Their matches are shown according to age,
location and, of course, type.

TypeTango was created as a college project by Vladimir
Kornea, 24, who lives with his parents in Ridgewood,
N.Y., and is also looking for love online.

"As I was reading people's profiles on other dating
sites, I noticed that I was trying to figure out their
MBTI types," he says. "It immediately seemed obvious
that there is a market for a dating site based on the
MBTI."

He's now trying to turn it into a profitable business.
TypeTango has gotten about 3,700 subscribers since it
launched in September 2002. That's a speck compared to
Match.com's 12 million users, but one that could fill
a niche as the $313 million Internet-dating market
splinters into specialty sites.






Still, Kornea isn't putting his own love life into one
basket. He advertises himself, and the fact that he's
an INTP, on Match.com.

"I like to keep a profile on a number of sites."

Not good for finding love

Although the Myers-Briggs remains the most widely used
personality test in the workplace, its use as a
love-finder is bringing mixed results.

Jami Barnett, a 29-year-old office worker in Renton,
thought she'd get along great with another INFP.
Easily spooked by the loud extroverted type, she liked
the idea of an introverted, intuitive, feeling and
perceiving partner who also happens to be a Christian.


Yet after a few dates with a man who fit the type
perfectly, Barnett lost interest. "It was unreal how
much we had in common, but it was rather boring. It
was like talking to myself."

Now Barnett is looking for an opposite. Not an E ? she
still finds them scary ? but definitely an ISTJ.

"I think having interests and experiences in common is
good. I don't think being the same personality type is
necessarily good."

This may be because singles are misinterpreting or
misapplying what they know.

Factoids


People tend to marry similar rather than dissimilar
types. This happens more often than would be expected
by chance. ? MBTI Manual, 3rd edition, 1998
In general, INFJ, INFP and INTP types tend to be the
most dissatisfied with marriage or intimate
relationships, while ENFJ, ESFP and ESFJs are most
satisfied. ? MBTI Manual, 3rd edition, 1998

INTP men tend to have the lowest percentage of
relationships in which both partners were satisfied. ?
MBTI Manual, 3rd edition, 1998

Extroverted and introverted types can have vastly
different expectations for a Friday night. At the end
of a tiring work week, extroverts are often eager to
go out and socialize. Introverts need to stay at home
to recharge their batteries. ? "Life Types," Warner
Books, 1989



Jungian therapist Doniella Boaz has used the
Myers-Briggs in her relationships counseling for 27
years. She says it's good for helping couples
understand each other, but that it's unwise to use it
to eliminate potential partners.

"There is no ideal type to go with any other type,"
says Boaz, who practices in Seattle. "You can't say
I'm an ENTJ, I would never go with an INFP. Any kind
of box that we put people in is limiting and therefore
unfair."

Batyah Chliek, a 53-year-old life coach from Bellevue,
agrees.

She included her type, an INFP, in her Match.com
profile thinking that she'd attract likeminded men and
repel those who she wouldn't click with.

It did neither. One date turned out to be her polar
opposite.

"Of course, I'm an INFP, and that's what we are."

Another was an INFP just like herself. But instead of
sizzling chemistry, the encounter felt flat.

"Sometimes I think there's something that's
indefinable," Chliek has concluded about love matches.
"Just some kind of spark."
"Dans cette epoque cybernetique
Pleine de gents informatique."







Post#895 at 02-15-2004 04:48 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
---
02-15-2004, 04:48 AM #895
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INTP

INTP 1954







Post#896 at 02-15-2004 10:42 PM by AlexMnWi [at Minneapolis joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,622]
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02-15-2004, 10:42 PM #896
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I think I'm an INTJ right now. Sometimes I get ISTJ but lately I've been trending towards N... and have gotten closer to F but I still classify myself as T.
1987 INTP







Post#897 at 02-15-2004 11:52 PM by Katie '85 [at joined Sep 2002 #posts 306]
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02-15-2004, 11:52 PM #897
Join Date
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Posts
306

Quote Originally Posted by AlexMnWi
I think I'm an INTJ right now. Sometimes I get ISTJ but lately I've been trending towards N... and have gotten closer to F but I still classify myself as T.
I think I've changed a bit lately, too. My N and P tendencies will always be off the chart, but I've become more of an Introvert and more of a Thinker than I used to be. In fact, I think I might have been an Introvert all along and just didn't realize it. I've always cherished my private time, that's certain, and though I love being around people, I find that it takes a certain kind of person to really catch my interest and make me want to be friends with them. It's hard to find people with whom I have any meaningful, non-superficial interests in common. People who seem to be on my wavelength are so scarce that when I do meet one it's extremely exciting. Pathetic, I know, but true.
Much madness is divinest sense. -- Emily Dickinson







Post#898 at 02-26-2004 07:50 PM by Straha [at joined Jan 2004 #posts 63]
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02-26-2004, 07:50 PM #898
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63

i'm an ENTP







Post#899 at 02-27-2004 02:45 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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02-27-2004, 02:45 PM #899
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Location
western NC
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I'm INFP/INTP (varies).
It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks, you make a pet out of it.
- Charles Bukowski







Post#900 at 02-29-2004 10:30 PM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
---
02-29-2004, 10:30 PM #900
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Jul 2001
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Posts
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I am and (probably) always will be a strong I, borderline N/S, moderate T. However, lately I find myself feeling more and more P-like whereas I used to be an extremely strong J. The recent events in my life -- changing jobs four times in as many years, moving across country and back again, my parents dying, getting married, divorced after 18 months, then being involved in a long-distance relationship-- all have forced me to be far more adaptive and flexible than I ever thought possible before. I'm not certain that I like being this way either. I find myself more and more reluctant to put down roots (like buying a house here in Vancouver) out of fear that they'll be ripped out of the ground and I'll be forced to re-adapt once again, perhaps even more painfully next time. OTOH, perhaps this means I really still am a J at heart, since I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of becoming a borderline P.
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