Originally Posted by Kevin Parker '59

I am and (probably) always will be a strong I, borderline N/S, moderate T. However, lately I find myself feeling more and more P-like whereas I used to be an extremely strong J. The recent events in my life -- changing jobs four times in as many years, moving across country and back again, my parents dying, getting married, divorced after 18 months, then being involved in a long-distance relationship-- all have forced me to be far more adaptive and flexible than I ever thought possible before. I'm not certain that I like being this way either. I find myself more and more reluctant to put down roots (like buying a house here in Vancouver) out of fear that they'll be ripped out of the ground and I'll be forced to re-adapt once again, perhaps even more painfully next time. OTOH, perhaps this means I really still am a J at heart, since I am extremely uncomfortable with the idea of becoming a borderline P.

All that what I call "rug-out-from-under-you" stuff sounds very disconcerting. I feel your pain (to the point where I can understand it --e.g., I've never been divorced).

When I take that test, I type out over and over as ENTJ (The Fieldmarshal). I usually have a medium E, STRONG N (almost no S to speak of), weak T, moderate J. But when I read the descriptions of the types I don't really identify with ENTJ but rather with ENFP (The Champion)!

I am a TJ that feels like an FP. Split personality? Ah, there is my friend "Skippy" that Mr. Meece seems to bring out in me . . .

The positive things that Kant has to say about each character imply that each involves a virtue. As it happens, the "Five Virtues" of Confucian ethics (kindness, righteousness, propriety, knowledge, and good faith -- shown matched with the five elements) make pretty good candidates. We have seen already the similarity of the "goodhearted" sanguine character to the Confucian virtue of r?n, "kindness." Strong also is the correspondence of Kant's melancholic character, who acts on principle, to the Confucian virtue of y?, "righteousness." Confucius, at his most Kantian, says that the "superior man" thinks of righteousness, the mean man thinks of profit. Especially noteworthy is the correspondence of the Kantian choleric character to the Confucian virtue of li3, "propriety, good manners, ritual." The superficially of propriety, which Kant says tends to hypocrisy, explains the rejection of mere good manners by Taoism. Confucius, however, valued li3 very highly indeed. We see something similar in Edmund Burke, who said:


Manners are of more importance than laws. Upon them in great measure, the laws depend. The law touches us but here and there and now and then. Manners are what vex and soothe, corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us by a constant, steady uniform insensible operation. Like that of the air we breathe in.

Being polite, indeed, means to avoid offending and irritating people. That this has no essential connection to righteousness we can see in persons who are polite but wicked (like Hannibal Lecter of The Silence of the Lambs), or in persons who are rude
but noble (like Mr. Darcy in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice) [note]. The conflict between Confucianism and Taoism in this respect is resolved by the polynomic theory of value, where good manners are a hortative, not an imperative, good.

Psychological Types
(after C.G. Jung & the Briggs-Myers Typology)

Here's a new test for us all--a computerized handwriting analysis.

http://www.hwa.org/SelfEval.shtml

And here's what it said about me:

Personalized HWA Report for Vince Lamb

Thanks for taking a look at things here to see our Mini-HW read. You report that your signature tends to be moderate compared to the rest of your writing, slant tends to be quite significantly to the right, and the slope tends to be slightly upward. Examining the signature and printed name as separate entities, you said your printed name is very different from your signature . Then in the main handwriting section, you indicate that the roundness / sharpness of your hand is usually quite sharp, your use of writing/printing is totally "by the book", like above the blackboard at school , general slant is quite significantly to the right, and slope is wandering .
Using the above information, then: You're at a place where you wouldn't really mind eeking out there a little more and making yourself more known and seen, but still you're not sure that the Vince Lamb you know is ready for the Grand Stage or the Big League of public attention. Your general outlook on life is positive and you tend to be optimistic. Its likely that you enjoy throwing a good party, and just don't like being cooped up all evening. And once Friday afternoon comes, you're probably often right ready to bolt out to find the weekend's next social event! Hmmm... So you like to be one person out in the world and another person in the privacy of your own space, eh? Interesting. Does that also mean that you have multiple personalities? (Probably not but then... who knows!? You could be a hard one to figure out! ;-)
Wow! You really are attached to keeping within the bounds and limitations of other people's view of the rules, eh? Have you never much felt like jumping outside of the mold, and putting in your own personal flair? Did people in school always say, "Well, Vince Lamb can really produce! Great Worker!" and you were heavily motivated by this encouragement? Are you still trying to be noticed mostly by how well you can 'color between the lines'? Perhaps it's hard to be Vince Lamb in terms of that need to strive so hard to be the Good Little Being who Conforms? Not to put too fine a point on it, but sometimes being yourself might be a better idea than just fitting in, conforming, striving always just to please others. The world -already- appreciates Vince Lamb, you know? You may sometimes have a tendency to get caught up in intense discussions a bit too often. And when that happens, you might tend to prefer to up the ante then, and play for even higher stakes. Kind of have a reputation for a sharp tongue?And to make things even more intense, I note you also have that significant rightward lean, which means you can do some serious leaning into people's faces with your intensities. Ooooh. Quite a temper, eh?
But, on the positive side of things, you'd also tend to be quite a powerhouse, mover & shaker when you wanted to get going on things. So the DIRECTION, then is important! You probably tend to be kind of moody, don't you? A part of the situation could be your diet, though sometimes other factors like stress could also be involved. At any rate: your emotions probably are variable about now. Life indeed IS interesting, isn't it? No one ever has to tell you to bring your intensity to the party; you tend to like very much to live powerfully, and on your own terms, so it should be little surprise to people when they find you making waves in someone else's life at the same time!
As for Astrological Implications possibly related to you:
Because your signature is in the more conservative "mid-range" you might find that a cautious Virgo / Cap nature may be affecting you now... either as a continual (birth) Sun Sign, or as a periodic phase you're going through at this point. Bottom line: conservative Virgo / Cap middle-of-the-road indicators here. And you know, you might have a bit of a strong calling as a Gemini, since you like to mix yourself selectively with different versions for different moods! Definitely likely that you've got some serious fire in there in your chart. With a slant like that, it could be Aries Sun or Ascendant, or with the combination of your sharpness AND the lean, could well be Aries/Scorpio. That would be one heavy load when it comes to personal interaction! Intense!

Thanks for taking a look at things here to see our Mini-HW read.
You report that your signature tends to be about the same size compared to the
rest of your writing, slant tends to be slightly to the right, and the slope
tends to be pretty flat / straight. Examining the signature and printed name as
separate entities, you said your printed name is mildly different from your signature. Then in
the main handwriting section, you indicate that the roundness /
sharpness of your hand is usually slightly more sharp than round,
your use of writing/printing is totally "by the book", like above the blackboard at school ,
general slant is slightly to the right, and slope is pretty straight, or flat.
?????
?????Using the above information, then: ? You like to keep life in perspective and have a fairly
straightforward way of viewing yourself and others.
To you, Life is neither a stage nor a tragedy play! You
are fairly comfortable with who you are and your family. You can take it or leave it when party invitation time
comes around. That is, some you will take, and others you
will kindly decline. You tend to be a little skeptical
about having to always be the same person, and you like
to have a little wiggle room to become someone new from
time to time. No big deal. Understandable: You like
flexibility!

?????Wow! You really are attached to keeping within the bounds
and limitations of other people's view of the rules, eh?
Have you never much felt like jumping outside of the mold, and putting in your own personal flair? Did people
in school always say, "Well, Klaus can really produce!
Great Worker!" and you were heavily motivated by this encouragement? Are you still trying to be noticed
mostly by how well you can 'color between the lines'?
Perhaps it's hard to be Klaus in terms of that need to
strive so hard to be the Good Little Being who Conforms?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but sometimes being
yourself might be a better idea than just fitting in,
conforming, striving always just to please others.
The world -already- appreciates Klaus, you know? Oh,
and people can annoy you with their poking along sometimes,
eh--- Klaus definitely not liking to be one of those mossy
staid pebbles, but rather, more of a rolling stone?
You like to keep ACTIVE, and always doing something,
even if it's just inner chatter, but your feel it's definitely your calling to just get out there and Get On
With Things! So: Put in traffic behind a slow pokey car
in front of you, and look for some fireworks of patience?
Calm down, now: the world will still be there in the
twelve seconds you'd save by rushing to get around them...
Take it easy, ok? Normalcy doesn't bother you. In fact,
it may feel downright comfortable most of the time.
No point in pushing the envelope, huh?

As for
Astrological Implications possibly related to you:
-- Sorry, no glaring Astro Cues apparent for this particular hand ---

Did people
in school always say, "Well, Klaus can really produce!
Great Worker!" and you were heavily motivated by this encouragement?
I am not motived by another's praise.

So: Put in traffic behind a slow pokey car
in front of you, and look for some fireworks of patience?
Calm down, now: the world will still be there in the
twelve seconds you'd save by rushing to get around them...
Take it easy, ok? That slow pokey car might very well be my Ford P/U.

My report below. And yes, I am a worrier but the "softie" in me is starting to get sick of other people's crap.

Thanks for taking a look at things here to see our Mini-HW read. You report that your signature tends to be moderate to large compared to the rest of your writing, slant tends to be quite significantly to the right, and the slope tends to be slightly upward. Examining the signature and printed name as separate entities, you said your printed name is quite different from your signature. Then in the main handwriting section, you indicate that the roundness / sharpness of your hand is usually fairly rounded... quite softish / loopy, your use of writing/printing is most always in Printing, general slant is slight leftward inclination, and slope is pretty straight, or flat.

Using the above information, then: You don't particularly like to stand out in the world, and prefer to just get on with being who you are. You can be quite reasonably confident and satisfied with self, and though not willing to make grand entrances or exits, will still find time to "glow" a little out there in the limelight. Your general outlook on life is positive and you tend to be optimistic. Its likely that you enjoy throwing a good party, and just don't like being cooped up all evening. And once Friday afternoon comes, you're probably often right ready to bolt out to find the weekend's next social event! So you kind of like to hide behind the curtain of convenience, huh? Prefer not to have people know the "real you" unless you want them to.

Your heart likely beats a little faster than the "average" for your age. Are you aware of that? How do we know? Because you have a bit of difficulty relaxing and trusting that things will come out for the best. Daily flow isn't your kind of thing to leave to "chance" so you prefer to "worry things into place" more often than not. I guess that you must be something of a sentimentalist, eh? Do people ever say, "Oh, yeah: Sean Love can really be an old softie sometimes! A real kind soul." But then, this can get you into trouble sometimes, too, though, because you can have a difficult time saying "No!" and can feel guilty for not being All things to All People!!Left-handers often have a slant like you do. But in right-handed people, if it's a back slant like that, then that typically would point to some hesitance to get involved in life and social situations.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

And here's what it said about me:

Personalized HWA Report for Vince Lamb . . .

. . . You're at a place where you wouldn't really mind eeking out there a little more and making yourself more known and seen, but still you're not sure that the Vince Lamb you know is ready for the Grand Stage or the Big League of public attention . . .

But, on the positive side of things, you'd also tend to be quite a powerhouse, mover & shaker when you wanted to get going on things . . . you tend to like very much to live powerfully, and on your own terms, so it should be little surprise to people when they find you making waves in someone else's life at the same time!

Sounds like you are ready for big things!

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

?"Well, Klaus can really produce!"

Klaus? :? :shock:

Originally Posted by William J. Lemmiwinks

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

?"Well, Klaus can really produce!"

Klaus? :? :shock:

Name changes

My family has Claes and Klaase and Claus in the old church records. It was "modernized" here in the U.S. and in the Nordic nations to a more Germanic Klaus.



My surname was made more efficient by U.S. immigration from the umlauted Per?saari. I seem to be part of the Scanian spawn of Petter H?llstr?m as well but that is a doubly umlauted Danish and would have been seized at the borders as well.



The family arms. FWIW

This is a very long post. The reason I wrote it is because I think that MBTI temperaments is an excellent way to grasp the mood of the turnings, especially at the beginning of the era.

S&H state that while individuals have personalities, generations also have personalities. For this essay, I will apply MBTI temperaments to generations. In the MBTI system, there are 16 different personality types, designated with a code with four characters. The left-most character is either I for introversion or E for extroversion. Moving to the right, the S is for sensing, while N is for intuiting. Moving right again, the T is for thinking, while the F is for feeling. The right-most character is either a J for judging, or a P for perceiving. I won't get into the details of what these all mean, there are many good sources at the bookstore or the Internet. These 16 types are divided into four groups of four, which are called temperaments. Basically, the types in a temperament share a lot of common characteristics. This is why Keirsey is more interested in temperaments than in individual types. For our purposes, only the temperaments themselves matter; we will ignore the individual typings. These individual typings, and their two character designations (in parenthesis) include the Guardians (SJ), the Artisans (SP), the Idealists (NF), and the Rationals (NT).

In their works, S&H have also used MBTI in their charts to make their point about the four different archetypes. The Idealist/Prophet archetype has an NF temperament; the Civic/Hero archetype has an NT temperament; the Reactive/Nomad archetype has an SJ temperament; the Adaptive/Artist archetype has an SP archetype. While I agree with the Prophet and Hero designations, I think that the Nomad and Artist designations need to be reversed. The Nomad should be a SP, while the Artist should be a SJ.

One major component of Generational Theory is that life is divided into four main phases, ranging from childhood, young adulthood, midlife, and elderhood. How does this work? My theory is slightly different from the S&H version. Basically, the three adult generations are active, while the childhood generation is not. During any era, the young adult generation gradually moves towards the persona that will characterize the generation currently in childhood. The midlife generation will also gradually, and subconsciously move towards this direction, but not as much as the generation in young adulthood. The generation in elderhood senses this, and tries to fight the coming of this persona. Once the generations realign for a new era, this changes. As the alignment happens, the persona that was rising subconsciously in the previous era is not admitted to full consciousness. The previous childhood generation now embodies this persona, and the persona of the new era. The generation now entering midlife help push society into this new era, fully adopting the new persona into their own. The generation now entering elderhood work to complement the new emerging persona. As the era progresses, the persona of the previous elderhood generation is projected onto the children of the current era, with which the cycle repeats. To best illustrate this, it is useful to look at each different era.


Outer Driven Era (ODE)
Previous alignments have occurred during the late 1690s, around 1790, and in 1946, just as the Crisis Era (CE) ends and the ODE begins. As this alignment occurs, the SJ persona is fully admitted to societal consciousness. What are some of the characteristics of SJs? Myers described the SJ as being dependable, detailed, factual, hard-working, painstaking, patient, persevering, routinized, sensible, stable, thorough, undistractable, and unimpulsive. In short, a good description of American society, and the new youth generation during the late 1940s. SJs tend to be very cautious. They are very good at seeing how things can go wrong if the rules are not followed. SJs firmly believe in rules. They tend to agree with, and follow societal rules. SJs believe in cooperation with authority, and conformity with regards to societal norms. SJs ?work hard to make and enforce the laws that govern action, insisting that only by establishing and obeying rules and regulations can we hope to maintain civil order, and thus safeguard our homes, communities, and businesses. More than any other type, SJs know their place in society, and do not wish to upset it. They firmly believe in civil order, and work to maintain it at all costs. Because they believe in maintaining civil order, they will gravitate towards careers of this type. They will go into government, economics, etc. They are interested in commerce as it is the backbone of society, a way of properly distributing goods and services that society needs. SJs strive to maintain traditional morals. SJs are huge seekers of security. They yearn for belonging. All of these characteristics apply to Adaptive generations at the beginning of the ODE. This applies to society at large also. People old enough to remember the late 1940s to the early 1950s recall this mood, with the demobilization from the war, the end of social conflict, the United Nations, etc. The midlife Civics attach their own NT persona to the SJ mood by putting the finishing touches on the social order. The elder Reactives attach their SP persona to the SJ mood by leading with a security-minded stewardship.

After the initial alignment, the future continues to brighten. The Reactives, like old SPs, are ?crusty conservatives, not born yesterday.? They've seen the evil in man, and have no illusions of human goodness that younger generations seem to have. After having experienced the CE, they become very protective of a peace that they have fought life-long, and very hard to maintain. As such, they will resist the Civics who they see as the largest threat to the social order that they ironically built.

As for the Civics, the CE cements into their persona a huge confidence in their ability to build. Like NTs, they believe that they can build their way to social bliss. After the initial ODE alignment, Civics want to continue to build and improve the civic order. They accelerate into the era with ever newer civic projects designed to build a better civic order. They don't trust government the same way the Adaptives do. However, they built the system, and more than anyone else, know how to work it. The Civics not only know how to operate the system, they ARE the system itself. They put their trust in themselves, in science, in rationality, in technology, and in progress. They are, however, opposed by the Reactives, and by the younger Adaptives. The adaptives and reactives are more interested in maintaining the current order.

After the ODE alignment, and deeper into the ODE era, the Adaptives, who are the plumbers of the system, become aware of its short-comings. They become aware of the ironies of the system. As such, they strive to improve the system. Also, seeing that continual building will not necessarily lead to social bliss, the NF temperament will gradually enter the subconscious of society. They will begin to rediscover feeling in society. They, and the Civics will together project this persona onto the new generation now in childhood. As society continues to brighten, the Adaptives will continue to infuse society with more feeling. The fringe will use the era's shame ethos to get society to search greater within themselves. At the same time, the Civics will be building large, new historic projects. This mood was present in society during the late 1950s to around 1960, with Rock and Roll, the beginnings of the space program, the Beats, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Awakening Era (AE)

Previous alignments occurred in the mid 1720s, the late 1810s, around 1890, and 1963. These all mark the beginning of the AE. As this alignment occurs, the NF mood is fully admitted to consciousness. Myers describes the NFs as creative, enthusiastic, humane, imaginative, insightful, religious, subjective, and sympathetic. In short, this describes the societal mood, and the youth persona of the early to mid 1960s. The job of the NF is ?no less than to divine moral principles and the full meaning of life. NFs are described as being ?not only tempestous, but also passionate.? Basically, the emotions of NFs are very easy to arouse. NFs ?are inclined to embrace some humane doctrine and cling to it tenaciously, certain as they are of its immense value to mankind...and an intention to invite others to join in that way of living.? ?Idealist communication is often laced with metaphors.? ?It isn't that the first person acts like a devil [or angel], he is one.? Also, NF have a habit of overstatement. With this, NF thought and discussion becomes hyperbolized. NFs are ever on the lookout for personal identity. They are constantly searching for self. Their many excursions into their and other's souls is a quest for self-actualization. NF ?self-confidence rests on their authenticity, their genuineness as a person...a self-image they present to the world allows for no facade, no mask, no pretense.? NFs have a ?desire for Absolute Truth.? All of these characteristics apply to Idealist generations at the beginning of the AE, and to society at large at the same time. People old enough remember this as the mood of the early to mid 1960s, with campus unrest, urban riots, the 1963 March on Washington, Great Society, etc. The midlife Adaptives attach their own SJ persona to this NF mood by embracing the new set of morals while attacking the Civic's projects, which they will see as destructive the the order implanted during the CE. The elder Civics attach their NT persona to the NF mood by planning and building vast civic projects designed to build a more blissful society.

After the initial alignment, Awakening mood deepens. The Civics, like old NTs, continue to plan and build. With the success of the CE and ODE behind them, they fully expect to propel civilization to unprecedented wealth, knowledge, and rationalism in a world with now more than enough of these. As such, younger generations will oppose them in pursuit of more spiritual and moral interests, which they perceive there is not enough of. After younger generations put a stop to their projects, they are financially rewarded by younger generations who believe that the economy will continue to function as it did before.

As for the Adaptives, the joyless conformity of the ODE arouses a pressing need for personal enjoyment. After the initial AE alignment, Adaptives want to discover their deeper selves. They want to experience the fun that they missed during their younger years, while warning younger Idealists to not make the same mistake they did. With the future so bright under Civic leadership, they begin to detach from these institutions, and partake in the search for personal identity and enjoyment that the Idealists are pioneering. As the Civics seem intent on fomenting a new era of historic institution change, the Adaptives will have none of that. Now in important leadership positions, they will put the brake on Civic projects. They will save the old civic order from destruction, and prevent another potentially catastrophic bend point in history. At the same time, they will fully adopt the cultural agenda of younger Idealists.

After the AE alignment, and deeper into the era, the Idealists, who are the guides for the new culture, begin to split. As the enthusiasm deepens, individual Idealists will continue their search for self-actualization, which gives them the impression that they are right, and everyone else is wrong. This makes decisive collective action very difficult. By now, the SP persona is entering the collective subconscious of society. This fosters a rising interest in individualism, in economic enterprise, and fun/frolic. Eventually, the enthusiasm turns hysterical. When this happens, the emerging splits become permanent, and new cultural niches are born. With Civic projects abandoned, and with Adaptives now in control, the enthusiasm begins to cool down. The movements early in the era are now split into niches, fully self-contained. The collective mood of society darkens. New secular problems reveal themselves for the first time. The new culture prevails. This mood was present during the mid to late 1970s with the abandonment of the Apollo space program, the rise of Disco, New Age fads, and the malaise that Jimmy Carter spoke about.

Inner Driven Era (IDE)

Previous alignments occurred in the late 1740s, the early 1840, late 1900s decade, and 1983. These all mark the beginning of the IDE. As this alignment occurs, the SP mood is fully admitted to consciousness. Myers describes SPs as adaptable, artistic, athletic, aware of reality and never fighting it, open-minded, know what's going on, on the lookout for workable compromises, able to see the needs of the moment, stores up useful facts, easy going, persuasive, acts with effortless economy, want first-hand experiences, and want to enjoy life. In short, a nice description of the mood of society and the new youth generation during the early to mid 1980s. SPs are ?effective at hunting [and scavenging],? and ?very clever.? Quite the opposite of the circa 1950 SJs, the circa 1985 SPs are ?given to changing things and on the lookout for something new and different.? They easily become ?recklessly impetuous...as if compelled by irresistible urges which overcome their will.? Unlike NFs, they are more literal in thought and speech, and more likely to use similes than metaphors. SPs have little use for theory, preferring real world experience. SPs believe that ?if some action doesn't fit your intention and advance you toward your goal, then why do it?? With their cleverness, they are able to take on certain actions that others would consider impossible. No other type can get something out of nothing better than the SPs. SPs are always interested with learning new techniques. SPs are bold, daring, and adventuresome. With shorter time horizons, SPs believe that, ?life is too short,? ?make hay while the sun shines,? and ?he who hesitates is lost.? This fosters an ethos of going for the quick strike. Because they are bold and daring, they are the most quick to turn their lives around to win big. SPs like living on edge like this. It gives them a certain thrill they can find nowhere else. SPs can ?tolerate a lot of excitement for long periods of time.? With SPs, ?the atmosphere takes on a certain glow, seems brighter, seems more colorful.? SPs trust their impulses, and tend to act on them. People old enough remember this as the mood of the early to mid 1980s, with the rise of Yuppiedom, Reaganism, the rise of organized crime, the rise of punk, metal, and rap, and a frenetic, if optimistic culture. The midlife Idealists attach their own NF persona to this SP mood by individually exploring the depths of spiritualism and morality. The elder Adaptives attach their SJ persona to the SP mood by embracing the liberating forces of individualism, and preventing the coming of a new social consensus.

After the initial alignment, the future continues to darken. The Adaptives, like old SJs, abandon their earlier rigidness, and want to enjoy life. Having seen so much social constraint in their lives, they will want to liberate everyone from these constraints. They will pave the way for people to live full individual lives. They do not want there to be an overall social direction. Where they embraced the Idealist values regime a decade earlier, now they will increasingly oppose the Idealists who themselves are becoming more rigid.

As for the Idealists, the AE cements into their persona a powerful sense of self-esteem and moral conviction. After finding personal truth, it is time to use the lessons they learned to lead full individual lives. After the initial IDE alignment, Idealists want to increase the depth and scope of their values regime. They enter into remission, fully absorbed into their own personal lives, while not caring what their neighbor does. More than anyone else, they understand the morals of society. As such, they will undergo a mission of self-perfection. They want to perfect everything as they individually see it. Niche walls will continue to rise. By now, all other niches are evil, and they are engaged in screaming matches against other niches. They be opposed by elder Adaptives, and by young Reactives who are worried at where this drive towards perfection may lead.

After the IDE alignment and deeper into the era, the Reactives become aware of the short-comings of the Idealist values regime. They become aware of the hypocrisies of the values regime. As such, they look for their own values based upon direct, real world experience. They will gradually realize the long term personal and social consequences of their actions, and with this, the NT persona will gradually enter into the collective subconscious of society. The will rediscover how to makes things work in society. They will start with their jobs and with their families. As society continues to darken, the social life will seem out of control. By now, Idealists are trying drastic measures to put order back into society. As the society continues to fall apart, fears about the future will subliminally deepen. At the same time, personal enterprise will reach a peak. Irrational exuberance will enter society, with widespread dreams of striking it big. The Idealists will now want to apply their ethos of perfection to all of society. They will begin to craft new worldviews. While they are still engaged in screaming matches, they will gradually mellow, and find common ground around simple, but fundamental principles. This mood was present in society during the late 1990s to around 2000, with the Clinton Impeachment, with the Internet bubble, the Promise Keepers, and the rise of a reactionary conservatism.

Crisis Era (CE)

Alignments occurred in 1675, 1773, 1929, and 2001. These all mark the beginning of the CE. As this alignment occurs, the NT mood is fully admitted to consciousness. Myers described the NTs as analytical, competent, efficient, exacting, impersonal, intellectual, logical, scientific, and systematic. In short, a description of the new youth generation and American society during the early to mid 2000s decade. The purpose of NTs is to ?study nature and figure out ways to tame it...to make the natural order confluent with the social order.? Summing up this turning shift, a British officer stationed in Boston in 1774 noted that, ?the [people] began to think and to reason.? NTs ?try to avoid the irrelevant, [and] the trivial...? NTs like to arrange concepts in ?logical order to control coherence.? NTs tend to ?assume that what is obvious to them is obvious to others.? This far too often becomes a major source of social conflict and unrest during this era. NTs are ?unusually exacting about definitions.? Because of this, they tend to aggressively make important distinctions between different concepts. They believe that ?their distinctions enable them to control [enterprises]...whoever controls categories, controls useful operations.? As such, NTs are very careful in avoiding errors of categories and sequences, as they would lead to error, which could mean disaster during an operation. Unlike NFs, they will not be as attached to certain people or ideologies. In fact, NTs will ?listen to anybody who has something useful to offer regarding their choice of ways and means, and will disregard those who dont...They will heed the demons if their ideas are fruitful, and ignore the saints if their ideas are not.? NTs are endless in their ?struggle to bring efficiency and goal-directedness to the enterprise,? which has caused them to, ?engineer the [technology and worldview] upon which civilization is based.? In this, NTs are interested in two things: ?arranging?, which is the ?determining of rank (hierarchy, layers, echelons) or the consecutive steps (sequence, series, succession) that are required to achieve long range objectives.? These allow the ?mobilization of field forces in campaigns? and the ?entailing of contingencies in a plan of action.? The other thing NTs are interested in is ?constructing?, which is the act of ?determining what the parts of a system are supposed to do (its mechanism) or what parts of a system are required for it to work (its configuration). These are ?undertaken to determine what structures are necessary and sufficient for the system to do its work most efficiently.? NTs are pragmatic in that they focus on ?the relationship between means and ends with an eye one...the practical consequences of achieving one's ends.? As such, NTs are constantly one the search for the most efficient way to perform an operation. NTs ?regard social custom neither respectfully nor sentimentally, but pragmatically, as something useful for deciphering the lessons of history, and thus for avoiding errors.? As a result, NTs brush aside convention or prejudice, unless a use can be found for them. NTs ?believe they can overcome any obstacle, dominate any field, conquer any enemy ? even themselves ? with the power of their resolve.? NTs develop a powerful determination to achieve their goals. Just the opposite of NFs, NTs ?prefer to be calm...particularly in stressful situations, when things around them are in turmoil.? NTs do not like to show any irrational emotion as it indicates a lack of self-control; they prefer to be ?cool, calm, and collected.? NTs also trust reason above all else. NTs believe that ?'if men would be reason together,' even the most difficult of problems might be solved.? NTs yearn for achievement. NTs ?live through their work. For them, work is work and play is work.? NTs ?work with a single-minded desire to achieve their objectives...once involved in a project, they tend to be reluctant, if not unable, to limit their commitment of time and energy.? Because of this NTs ?frequently achieve notable success in their chosen field.? People old enough remember this as the mood of the early 1930s, with the New Deal, and other efforts are political mobilization. People today can see society turning this direction with a War on Terrorism, and the largest effort in voter mobilization in history, as well as a very rapid rise in community activism, political activism and mobilization, and political interest organizations. The midlife Reactives attach their SP persona to the NT mood by applying their survival skills and realism to guard society from dangers. The elder Idealists apply their NF persona to the NT mood by focusing and resolving to solve long deferred problems.

After the initial alignment, the Crisis mood deepens. The Idealists embark on their crusades with more fervor than ever before. With the time spent in earlier eras defining and refining moral convictions, they will have in place a moral platform for decisive action. Younger generations will adopt their cultural agenda, while at the same time, opposing their excessive other-worldliness. At some point, the Idealists will emotionally arouse society to a boiling point, at which they and their values will either triumph or fail.

As for the Reactives, the prior era of chaotic laissez-faire individualism arouses a pressing need for a slower, calmer, and more simple life. After the initial CE alignment, Reactives want to build social structures that produce more order. They want to build the sense of community and personal security they missed during their younger years, while warning younger Civics to not make the same mistake they did. With the mood of urgency, they will finally want to reconnect with social institutions. As the Idealists seem intent on fomenting a new era of historic institution change, they will now be supported by younger generations. Now in important leadership positions, they will moderate the mass actions that will usher in the new era.

After the CE alignment, and deeper into the era, the Civics will unite. As the mood deepens, Civics will continue to band together in larger groups, making decisive collection very easy. By now, the SJ persona is entering the collective subconscious of society. This fosters a rising interest in security, order, and stability. Eventually, the urgent mood turns into a full fledged emergency. When this happens, old niches die as society begins to achieve unity. With Reactives now in control, the emergency will begin to wind down. The movements early in the era are now fully embedded within the civic order. The collective mood of society brightens. New spiritual problems emerge for the first time. The new civic order prevails. This mood was present during the first half of the 1940s with World War II. This same mood will also be present in the late 2010s to around 2020.

Very good post Heru. I have also discussed the relation of MBTI to turnings. I was not aware that S&H made this connection in their works; must be works after T4T. Perhaps they got the ideas from our posts here.

(I differ with you on the timing of the current 3T/4T border; I think the 4T will not start until 2008/9 and last to about 2027. When it comes it will be environment-driven).

In their works, S&H have also used MBTI in their charts to make their point about the four different archetypes. The Idealist/Prophet archetype has an NF temperament; the Civic/Hero archetype has an NT temperament; the Reactive/Nomad archetype has an SJ temperament; the Adaptive/Artist archetype has an SP archetype. While I agree with the Prophet and Hero designations, I think that the Nomad and Artist designations need to be reversed. The Nomad should be a SP, while the Artist should be a SJ.

I agree more or less. The Nomad fit SP pretty well, but only some artist types (the less typical ones) fit SJ. I think your correlations of your 4 types with the 4 eras make a lot of sense.

I disagree with Kiersey though. I don't think it's valid to use un-proportional categories. It's just the partial NT in me I guess (I am INxP).

In an early chapter of Myers' book, it was quite clearly stated that there are four categories of people: NTs, NFs, STs and SFs. The four categories should be based on four types of the same kind; in other words, mixing functions with functions consistently, not functions with lifestyles half the time. (Functions are F-feeling, N-intuition, S-sensing and T-thinking.) Kiersey picks out two types (NT and NF) based on functions only, and two others where he mixes the S function with the P or J lifestyle choice. That is sloppy theorizing IMO. And I think that's why you end up feeling something needs to be reversed from what S&H decided.

I would use these four types then:

NT = civic (logical and ingenious, as Myers puts it),
NF = idealist (enthusiastic and imaginative),
SF = artist (very sympathetic and people-oriented),
ST = nomad (practical and matter-of-fact).

What I did, was pick out 4 particular types which I thought were the most typical of the 4 Strauss and Howe archetypes, and arranged the others between them. I think this way:

INFJ is the most typical prophet/idealist. It is often called the Oracle which is essentially the same title. It is dominant in Awakenings, as the type of the youth generation of 2Ts.

ENTJ "the fieldmarshall" is the most typical hero or civic. It is the youth generation of 4Ts or crisis eras.

ESTP "the entrepreneur" is the most typical nomad/reactive. It is thus ST, but also SP. It would be the type most nearly-similar to the youth generation of 3Ts (inner-driven eras). This emphasizes the "pragmatic" aspect of Generation X and other nomads as well as their "fun-loving" and spontaneous aspect. I personally don't think our current 3T has been very much fun; most people have been tied to their jobs and families and work too much. The "fun" of our times is mostly media exaggeration and distraction for profit.

ISFP "the composer" or bucolic wanderer is the most typical artist/adaptive (again, the same title, virtually). It is also SP, and none of the 4 most-typical types are SJ. The closest is ESTJ, which is civic hero with some nomad aspects. SFs would be the typical youth of 1Ts or outer-driven eras. SJs might be a better fit for 1Ts, but only with Artists in their suppressed and conformist mood, before their mid-life crisis during awakenings when their real nature "comes out." In this case I think it is the older generations who set the "SJ" mood, probably because it is not a time of free experimenting, like most youth engage in, but a time when youth are "silent" and comforming to their elders. They set the mood by NOT setting it and adapting instead.

This again is how I arranged the 16 types (using the T4T archetype titles):

Typical artist ISFP More mixed ISFJ
Typical artist/prophet INFP More mixed ENFP
Typical prophet INFJ More mixed ENFJ
Typical prophet/hero INTJ More mixed INTP
Typical hero ENTJ More mixed ENTP
Typical hero/nomad ESTJ More mixed ISTJ
Typical nomad ESTP More mixed ISTP
Typical nomad/artist ESFP More mixed ESFJ

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Very good post Heru. I have also discussed the relation of MBTI to turnings. I was not aware that S&H made this connection in their works; must be works after T4T. Perhaps they got the ideas from our posts here.

Actually, this was in T4T, on page 74.

I agree more or less. The Nomad fit SP pretty well, but only some artist types (the less typical ones) fit SJ. I think your correlations of your 4 types with the 4 eras make a lot of sense.

I think that a few Adaptives fit the SJ type mainly because back then, the people and the media focused on those who didn't fit that type. I think that in the atmosphere of the era, most of the Silent would've appeared as a boring mass of identical sheep. Only those few that broke from the sheep mindset are noticed, those few such as the Beats, the Civil Rights activists, the rockers, etc.

I disagree with Kiersey though. I don't think it's valid to use un-proportional categories. It's just the partial NT in me I guess (I am INxP).

In an early chapter of Myers' book, it was quite clearly stated that there are four categories of people: NTs, NFs, STs and SFs. The four categories should be based on four types of the same kind; in other words, mixing functions with functions consistently, not functions with lifestyles half the time. (Functions are F-feeling, N-intuition, S-sensing and T-thinking.) Kiersey picks out two types (NT and NF) based on functions only, and two others where he mixes the S function with the P or J lifestyle choice. That is sloppy theorizing IMO. And I think that's why you end up feeling something needs to be reversed from what S&H decided.

I would use these four types then:

NT = civic (logical and ingenious, as Myers puts it),
NF = idealist (enthusiastic and imaginative),
SF = artist (very sympathetic and people-oriented),
ST = nomad (practical and matter-of-fact).

Very good. Sounds about right. With this, One would more easily place the other 2 digits in the saeculum. For instance, One could say that ODEs and CEs are periods when society uses its J side, while AEs and IDEs are periods when society uses its P side. As for EvI, I would place AEs and CEs under Extraversion while placing ODEs and IDES under Introversion.

What I did, was pick out 4 particular types which I thought were the most typical of the 4 Strauss and Howe archetypes, and arranged the others between them. I think this way:

INFJ is the most typical prophet/idealist. It is often called the Oracle which is essentially the same title. It is dominant in Awakenings, as the type of the youth generation of 2Ts.

ENTJ "the fieldmarshall" is the most typical hero or civic. It is the youth generation of 4Ts or crisis eras.

ESTP "the entrepreneur" is the most typical nomad/reactive. It is thus ST, but also SP. It would be the type most nearly-similar to the youth generation of 3Ts (inner-driven eras). This emphasizes the "pragmatic" aspect of Generation X and other nomads as well as their "fun-loving" and spontaneous aspect. I personally don't think our current 3T has been very much fun; most people have been tied to their jobs and families and work too much. The "fun" of our times is mostly media exaggeration and distraction for profit.

ISFP "the composer" or bucolic wanderer is the most typical artist/adaptive (again, the same title, virtually). It is also SP, and none of the 4 most-typical types are SJ. The closest is ESTJ, which is civic hero with some nomad aspects. SFs would be the typical youth of 1Ts or outer-driven eras. SJs might be a better fit for 1Ts, but only with Artists in their suppressed and conformist mood, before their mid-life crisis during awakenings when their real nature "comes out." In this case I think it is the older generations who set the "SJ" mood, probably because it is not a time of free experimenting, like most youth engage in, but a time when youth are "silent" and comforming to their elders. They set the mood by NOT setting it and adapting instead.

This again is how I arranged the 16 types (using the T4T archetype titles):

Typical artist ISFP More mixed ISFJ
Typical artist/prophet INFP More mixed ENFP
Typical prophet INFJ More mixed ENFJ
Typical prophet/hero INTJ More mixed INTP
Typical hero ENTJ More mixed ENTP
Typical hero/nomad ESTJ More mixed ISTJ
Typical nomad ESTP More mixed ISTP
Typical nomad/artist ESFP More mixed ESFJ

I don't think that any one particular type can be used as a model for a particular type because I think it changes with the seasons. Here is another possibility:

ODE:
ISFJ - Adaptives - Basically, they tend to be very quiet during this era. Also, they focus on helping others, and on fully supporting community norms.
INTJ - Civics - With the need for mass mobilization behind them, and with the new order in place, they can focus more on long range planning and action.
ISTJ - Reactives - They know from experience what dangers lie in the world. Having living a very traumatized life, they become extremely risk averse. They lead with extreme caution, but also with extreme realism.
INFJ - Idealists - They have high moral expectations of others, and are easily lost in their own mystical worlds in a boring, bland world.

AE:
ESFP - Adaptives - They emerge from their quietness, and become much louder and more flamboyant. Now they are more interested in searching for their own enjoyment, and allowing others to enjoy and entertain themselves.
ENTP - Civics - By the time, the Civics begin to lose their patience and rush ahead to remake society again. They will have many great successes, but also many failures.
ESTP - Reactives - They have not been alienated yet. They are still more optimistic during this era, even as they begin to learn "reality."
ENFP - Idealists - At this point, they enthusiastically allow others to join in their search for the soul of themselves, and of society. Characteristic of this era, this is done with little planning, and is thus, more disorganized.

IDE:
ISFP - Adaptives - They display a huge amount of kindness compared to other generations. They do not like to make hard decisions, and put them off for other generations so everyone can enjoy themselves.
INTP - Civics - In escaping the alienation and despair of daily life, they carefully scrutinize what is wrong with the world, and think of solutions they can apply.
ISTP - Reactives - Now, they become the ultimate realists. They do not like planning, but would much rather act on instinct. They have a supreme clarity of how the world is more than anyone else.
INFP - They now have high moral expectations of themselves. They spend this time improving on their own worldviews, and exploring its depths.

CE:
ESFJ - Adaptives - They are society's little helpers during major social events. They help guard the values that society is struggling to keep.
ENTJ - Civics - They bring mass mobilization, organization, and direction to a society, fueling the major events of this era.
ESTJ - Reactives - They manage the society, making sure that everyone gets what is needed, and that everyone is doing their job properly, and in enforcing new rules.
ENFJ - Idealists - With new direction, they are easily able to charm others into taking actions that would instill a new sense of spirit into society.

Interesting way of looking at it. In effect, you are saying here that there are 4 MBTI types, but they morph into 4 kinds depending on which turning we are in.

In effect, you picked out 4 who are the most typical of the 4 archetypes, just as I did, because one of them corresponds to which one you said was the dominant consciousness during a turning. So:

Most typical adaptive: ISFJ (I said ISFP)
Most typical civic: ENTJ (agrees with my choice)
Most typical reactive: ISTP (I said ESTP)
Most typical idealist: ENFP (I said INFJ)

I wonder if your designations are valid; food for thought at least:

1T = I/J
2T = E/P
3T = I/P
4T = E/J

It does make some sense. People are more orderly and more careful to plan their lives during 4Ts and 1Ts, and more casual and exploring (and less disciplined) in 2Ts and 3Ts. This indicates that transitions into 2Ts and 4Ts (AE and CE) are greater, since both letters switch.

It makes sense that people are outgoing in 2Ts and 4Ts, because that's when they come forward and demand action, speak out, etc. like the dominant S&H types (civics and prophets) who dominate those eras. I don't know if people are really introverted in the full sense during 1Ts and 3Ts. They certainly are not doing inner exploration, and not necessarily preferring to do things alone; but they are submissive more than dominant, like Reactive and Adaptive types. To the extent that Extraversion means dominant and Introversion less so, then that fits.

For me, the most typical idealist is more introverted because of the inner exploration and wisdom of the prophet, while the nomad or reactive is more extraverted because of the emphasis on action without forethought. That is looking at the types less in the context of the cycle. Certainly, in the way the 2T/Awakening is acted out publically, it is the ENFP temperament that we see. And prophets are a dominant type. But there's a lot more going on in 2Ts than what we see in the media and among the most outspoken folk. And the way Adaptives behave during 1Ts, ISFJ seems a perfect fit, while ISFP is more like their behavior in the following 2T/awakening-- although I think that is their "real and genuine" temperament coming out, whereas in 1Ts they are suppressed and controlled (J).

How do different types react? Say, I'm INTJ and my best friend is ENTP (I think). How does that and other interactions work between types?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Interesting way of looking at it. In effect, you are saying here that there are 4 MBTI types, but they morph into 4 kinds depending on which turning we are in.

In effect, you picked out 4 who are the most typical of the 4 archetypes, just as I did, because one of them corresponds to which one you said was the dominant consciousness during a turning. So:

Most typical adaptive: ISFJ (I said ISFP)
Most typical civic: ENTJ (agrees with my choice)
Most typical reactive: ISTP (I said ESTP)
Most typical idealist: ENFP (I said INFJ)

I wonder if your designations are valid; food for thought at least:

1T = I/J
2T = E/P
3T = I/P
4T = E/J

It does make some sense. People are more orderly and more careful to plan their lives during 4Ts and 1Ts, and more casual and exploring (and less disciplined) in 2Ts and 3Ts. This indicates that transitions into 2Ts and 4Ts (AE and CE) are greater, since both letters switch.

It makes sense that people are outgoing in 2Ts and 4Ts, because that's when they come forward and demand action, speak out, etc. like the dominant S&H types (civics and prophets) who dominate those eras. I don't know if people are really introverted in the full sense during 1Ts and 3Ts. They certainly are not doing inner exploration, and not necessarily preferring to do things alone; but they are submissive more than dominant, like Reactive and Adaptive types. To the extent that Extraversion means dominant and Introversion less so, then that fits.

For me, the most typical idealist is more introverted because of the inner exploration and wisdom of the prophet, while the nomad or reactive is more extraverted because of the emphasis on action without forethought. That is looking at the types less in the context of the cycle. Certainly, in the way the 2T/Awakening is acted out publically, it is the ENFP temperament that we see. And prophets are a dominant type. But there's a lot more going on in 2Ts than what we see in the media and among the most outspoken folk. And the way Adaptives behave during 1Ts, ISFJ seems a perfect fit, while ISFP is more like their behavior in the following 2T/awakening-- although I think that is their "real and genuine" temperament coming out, whereas in 1Ts they are suppressed and controlled (J).

Interesting. I'm an INTJ...moderate I, weak N, strong T, moderate (weak?) J. So if I read Eric correctly on the dominant MBTI types during turnings, I should feel most home in the Turnings by the following order:

1T/High
3T/Unravelling
4T/Crisis
2T/Awakening

This makes sense. The last High is but a distant memory, but I recall it as a time when I felt extremely safe and secure (likely because my parents did). That feeling ended as the 1967 2T Social Moment kicked in and didn't return until I could fully provide for all my own needs (around 1987-8, soon after the Unravelling SM). And although I had lots of fun times during the Awakening, the ones I remember most fondly (i.e. Sunday drives down the Shore, camp songs on the YMCA bus, hiking in the woods with my friends) seem like holdovers from the High in retrospect...most of the key elements of the Awakening I openly loathed both then and now.

It remains to be seen how I'll feel during the Crisis...this 4T just started and the Social Moment/Regeneracy is still anywhere from 6 months (Kerry's Inauguration?) to 4 years (core Boomers' retirement/Great Devaluation?) away. I'll be candid in saying that I don't like what I've seen thus far.

************************************************** **************

Originally Posted by Tim Walker

Except for the way the country came together in the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11th, I can't say that I've liked what I've seen so far either. I am particularly disappointed in the Boomers as a group-I thought that this was supposed to be an idealistic generation. I am unimpressed.

That's a good reason not to assume the 4T has begun.

The Bush crowd is obviously not in the least what we can expect from Boomers once the Crisis begins. Bush represents the least-typical Boomer culture; entirely retrograde and dependent on the past, rather than our own culture. His approach is entirely 3T: go on about your lives; let's show the "terrorists" how normal we are; meanwhile, don't complain too much as we take away your rights. Let's distract the people from the real Crisis with phoney "wars" we don't have to fight.

Our own Boomer culture, of course, comes out of all the experiences that Mr. Parker (with all due respect) "loathes" (and what Bush and Gingrich, hypocrites that they are, oppose); in other words, the real Awakening; not the reactionary counter-awakening of the late 70s and 80s; what I would call "the sleepening."

Here's something The Personality Zone sent me in an email re: the candidates yesterday. Interesting bit of history and speculation here.

Standard disclaimers apply.

ELECTION 2004?WILL HISTORY HOLD TRUE?

Four years ago, we at AdvisorTeam predicted that George W. Bush, an Artisan, would likely be the next president, even though at the time he was 8 points behind Al Gore in the polls. Our prediction was based on a study of the previous 100 years of elections in which we used Keirsey Temperament Theory to examine the temperament and character?the personality?of the previous winners. We found that every time an Artisan ran for President, regardless of party affiliation, the Artisan won.

The following chart lists the two major presidential candidates since 1960, with an assessment of their temperaments. The winning candidates are shown in bold:

1960 Kennedy (Artisan) Nixon (Guardian)
1964 Johnson (Artisan) Goldwater (Rational)
1968 Humphrey (Guardian) Nixon (Guardian)
1972 McGovern (Guardian) Nixon (Guardian)
1976 Carter (Guardian) Ford (Guardian)
1980 Carter (Guardian) Reagan (Artisan)
1984 Mondale (Guardian) Reagan (Artisan)
1988 Dukakis (Guardian) Bush (Guardian)
1992 Clinton (Artisan) Bush (Guardian)
1996 Clinton (Artisan) Dole (Guardian)
2000 Al Gore (Rational) George W. Bush (Artisan)
2004 John Kerry (Idealist) George W. Bush (Artisan)

Since Election 2000, the world has changed significantly. The country has never seemed more divided or more vocal over a presidential election than over Election 2004. As we enter the week before the election, political rhetoric is at an extremely high pitch with each side repeatedly impugning the ?character? of the other side?s candidate.

Although online betting sites favor President Bush over Senator Kerry, the polls all seem to be within the margin of error. If the historical patterns of Temperament theory hold true, President Bush should win. But, if history had held true last week, we?d be watching the New York Yankees in the World Series and not the Boston Red Sox, so at this late moment, we think this election is too close to call.

Certainly the circumstances of history, economics, and the political mood of the American people play a significant part in who gets elected, but it appears that temperament and character also have a lot to do with our choice.

What is Temperament?
Temperament is the innate form of personality?what we?re born with. Character is the emergent form?in other words, how our personality develops through the interaction of our temperament with the surrounding environment. Another way to look at it is that Temperament is the mindset or outlook people are born with, and character is the habits and repeated patterns people exhibit.

Our temperament predisposes us to develop certain attitudes and actions and not others. For example, some people are predisposed (born) with the natural inclination to analyze systems and theories, while others are inclined to fight for causes and empathize with others.

Each person develops a self-image and habits appropriate to his or her temperament. Thus, Artisans like George W. Bush base their self-image on grace, audacity, and adaptability to circumstance. Or, Idealists, like John Kerry, base their self-image on empathy, benevolence, and authenticity.

John Forbes Kerry
Counselor Idealist
Born: December 17, 1943, Denver, Colorado
Comparable Leaders: Mohandas Gandhi, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Mary Baker Eddy.


Comparable Leaders: Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson

George Walker Bush
Promoter Artisan
Born: July 6, 1946, New Haven, Connecticut

Comparable Leaders: Franklin Roosevelt, John Kennedy, and Lyndon Johnson

I found this very funny.


Introduction

In the decades since its inception, Myers Briggs personality typing has revolutionised many areas of our lives due to its ability to comprehensively explain human behaviour and interaction. Today, the Myers Briggs-savvy amongst us are using the MBTI to pick the perfect career for them, and the perfect mate. The applications of Myers Briggs typing are truly far-reaching and transformative.

This has naturally been a smashing success. You might think that with all this progress we have tapped out the MBTI for new applications. You would be wrong. Not only can the MBTI pick the perfect job and the perfect mate for you, scientifically performing vital tasks that used to be a matter of brute trial and error, it can offer critical guidance in other areas of your life as well. One such area which has not been sufficiently explored until now is the matter of choosing the right religion for you. In the past, people used to select their faith based on unscientific criteria such as their parents' religion, or if you're an NF which cult all your hippie friends thought was "groovy" that week. This has obvious drawbacks.

Not all religions are suitable for all people. In fact, just as with careers, particular types are best suited to particular religions. And particular religions are best suited to certain types. The result of the present state of affairs is that millions languish in religions that don't suit them, like square pegs in round holes. Similarly, churches are filled with dozens of people who don't fit in and just make trouble.

As a Myers Briggs type expert I am here to fill in this important void and publish a guide that will revolutionise society and contribute to human happiness by helping people avoid wasting years of their lives in religions that aren't right for them. The final draft is not ready yet, but as a sevice to society I am publishing a quick summary. And you saw it first on INFJ!
Religions by Type

Artisans (SP)

Artisans all have ADHD, and so should select religions which are dramatic, colourful and fun. Something a bit kooky and extreme would be a bonus. Es should select something that they can throw their energy and flair into without having to engage in any discipline and study. Charismatic Protestantism is an excellent example. I's can select something more involved.

ISTP: Select something hardcore, preferably where you get to smite the enemies of God. Extremist Fundamentalist Islam is currently a popular choice.

ISFP: Select a religion based on whether its art or music appeals to you. High Episcopalianism or Catholocism are good for theatre and classical music. Avoid anything tacky.

ESFP: Pentacostalism.

ESTP: You are hellbound anyway, so don't bother. Just sleep in.

Guardians (SJ)

Guardians want to live dry, regimented lives. Guardians should select regimented, controlling religions with lots of rules that they seek to impose on others. The ideal choice would be a religion that is illogical and inconsistent yet impossible to argue down due to the sheer energy and stubbornness of their proponents. In selecting a religion, Guardians should temper the ideal choice for their type by the fact that for Guardians, Mom and Dad's religion is ideal, provided it is a good Guardian religion.

ISTJ: Methodism, or some other form of Protestant Christianity, as long as it is dry.

ISFJ: Judaism, Conservative or Orthodox

ESFJ: Catholocism

ESTJ: Islam, mainstream

Rationals (NT)

These types are basically Godless and evil. Their choice of "faith" should reflect that.

INTP: INTPs are always right, therefore they should skip right to atheism, with an option on immortality as a simulation in a computer of unimaginable complexity at the end of time as proven by the laws of physics.

INTJ: Objectivism. Ayn Rand is your gal.

ENTP: You are also always right, yet like all EPs lack an attention span. Try agnosticism, and try not thinking about it too much.

ENTJ: Religion has its uses. Money, power and easy access to willing sex partners leap immediately to mind. Try starting your own cult. The exact type of cult should be determined by your background and aesthetic tastes, and by the pre-existing inclinations of the pathetic sheep-people who surround you which you can exploit.

Idealists (NF)

The correct religions for NFs are flakey "spiritual" ones, such as Wicca or Zen. If you are an NF, you should select the proper religion for you from the list below. If for some reason the correct choice for your type is not practical for you, try and compromise by wearing funky clothes, eschewing deodorant, and keeping lots of magic shit around your appartment, like Tarot cards. Smoking lots of weed is a nice touch as well.

INFP: Wicca, especially Celtic paganism. Also possibly Druidism, but not Asatru.

INFJ: Zen Buddhism.

ENFP: "Ecclectic paganism." No one expects you to have an attention span, so just go with the "smoking weed and buying magic crystals" option.

ENFJ: Hare Krishna

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

I found this very funny.


Introduction


INTP: INTPs are always right, therefore they should skip right to atheism, with an option on immortality as a simulation in a computer of unimaginable complexity at the end of time as proven by the laws of physics.

It's got me pegged.

Hmm . . . I never thought myself as a Extreme Islamist type . . . maybe I need to take a more thourough test.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

As a Myers Briggs type expert I am here to fill in this important void and publish a guide that will revolutionise society and contribute to human happiness by helping people avoid wasting years of their lives in religions that aren't right for them. The final draft is not ready yet, but as a sevice to society I am publishing a quick summary. And you saw it first on INFJ!
Religions by Type

Artisans (SP)

Artisans all have ADHD, and so should select religions which are dramatic, colourful and fun. Something a bit kooky and extreme would be a bonus. Es should select something that they can throw their energy and flair into without having to engage in any discipline and study. Charismatic Protestantism is an excellent example. I's can select something more involved.

ISTP: Select something hardcore, preferably where you get to smite the enemies of God. Extremist Fundamentalist Islam is currently a popular choice.

ISFP: Select a religion based on whether its art or music appeals to you. High Episcopalianism or Catholocism are good for theatre and classical music. Avoid anything tacky.

ESFP: Pentacostalism.

ESTP: You are hellbound anyway, so don't bother. Just sleep in.

Guardians (SJ)

Guardians want to live dry, regimented lives. Guardians should select regimented, controlling religions with lots of rules that they seek to impose on others. The ideal choice would be a religion that is illogical and inconsistent yet impossible to argue down due to the sheer energy and stubbornness of their proponents. In selecting a religion, Guardians should temper the ideal choice for their type by the fact that for Guardians, Mom and Dad's religion is ideal, provided it is a good Guardian religion.

ISTJ: Methodism, or some other form of Protestant Christianity, as long as it is dry.

ISFJ: Judaism, Conservative or Orthodox

ESFJ: Catholocism

ESTJ: Islam, mainstream

Rationals (NT)

These types are basically Godless and evil. Their choice of "faith" should reflect that.

INTP: INTPs are always right, therefore they should skip right to atheism, with an option on immortality as a simulation in a computer of unimaginable complexity at the end of time as proven by the laws of physics.

INTJ: Objectivism. Ayn Rand is your gal.

ENTP: You are also always right, yet like all EPs lack an attention span. Try agnosticism, and try not thinking about it too much.

ENTJ: Religion has its uses. Money, power and easy access to willing sex partners leap immediately to mind. Try starting your own cult. The exact type of cult should be determined by your background and aesthetic tastes, and by the pre-existing inclinations of the pathetic sheep-people who surround you which you can exploit.

Idealists (NF)

The correct religions for NFs are flakey "spiritual" ones, such as Wicca or Zen. If you are an NF, you should select the proper religion for you from the list below. If for some reason the correct choice for your type is not practical for you, try and compromise by wearing funky clothes, eschewing deodorant, and keeping lots of magic shit around your appartment, like Tarot cards. Smoking lots of weed is a nice touch as well.

INFP: Wicca, especially Celtic paganism. Also possibly Druidism, but not Asatru.

INFJ: Zen Buddhism.

ENFP: "Ecclectic paganism." No one expects you to have an attention span, so just go with the "smoking weed and buying magic crystals" option.

ENFJ: Hare Krishna[/color]

I believe the spirituality correlations are actually stronger with the Enneagram, and then it is simply a case of correlating Enneagram types with MBTI types (a given MBTI type may fit two or three type options per Enneagram). Richard Rohr did a good job with Enneagram spirituality correlations, despite the fact that he is regarded as an uber-heretic by traditionalists in his own Roman Catholic Church. According to my notes, he correlated Enneagram types as follows:

1) "The Need to Be Perfect" = Puritans, Reformers, Pharisees; idealism, moralism, perfectionism.
2) "The Need to Be Needed" = best when they can love and serve; helping poor, etc.
3) "The Need to Succeed" = American Gospel of achievement, affluence, and success.
4) "The Need to Be Special" = "The world will be saved by beauty"; ritual = reality; ecumenically-oriented.
5) "The Need to Perceive" = Buddhism, Sufism, Hassidism, Orthodoxy; monks, hermits, ascetics.
6) "The Need for Security/Certainty" = Roman Catholicism, Southern Baptism, Protestant fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism.
7) "The Need to Avoid Pain" = Charismatic movement, New Age
8) "The Need to Be Against" = liberation theology
9) "The Need to Avoid" = liberal Protestantism; avoid clear dogmatic statements, emphasis on peace.


This is what I have for Enneagram/MBTI correlations:

1) ISTJ, ENFJ, ENTJ, ISFJ, INFJ, INTJ, ESTJ, ESTP, ENTP (no ISFP, ESFP)
2) ESFJ / ISFP / ENFJ, ENFP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFJ (no INTJ, INTP, ENTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ, ISTP)
3) ESFJ, ENTP / ESTP / ESTJ / ENFJ, ISFJ, ENFP / ENTJ (no ISFP, INTP, ISTP, ESFP)
4) INFJ / INFP / ENFJ, ISFP / ENFP, ESFP (no ENTP, ESFJ, ISTP, ENTJ, ESTJ, ESTP)
5) INTP / ISTP, INTJ / ISTJ / INFJ (no ENFP, ENFJ, ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTP, ESFP)
6) INFP, ISFJ, ESFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ, INTP, ENFP, ISFP (no ISTP, ESTP, ESFP)
7) ESFP / ENFP / ESTP / ISTP / ENFJ, INTP (no ISFP, ESFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
8) ENTJ / ESTJ / ESFP / ESTP, ENTP / ENFP / ISTJ (no INFJ, ISFP, INTP, ISTP)
9) ISFP / INFP, ISTP / ISFJ, ESTP / ENTP, ESFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ (no ESFP)

The forward slashes separate different "tiers" of types per strength of correlation.

You can simplify it and derive further conclusions.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

ENTJ: Religion has its uses. Money, power and easy access to willing sex partners leap immediately to mind. Try starting your own cult. The exact type of cult should be determined by your background and aesthetic tastes, and by the pre-existing inclinations of the pathetic sheep-people who surround you which you can exploit.

:lol:

Don't give me any ideas.

:twisted:

Let me try to simplify it, guessing the order of correlations for each type:

ENTJ = 8, 1, or 3
INTJ = 5, or 1
ENTP = 3, 8, 9, or 1
INTP = 5, 6, or 7
ENFJ = 1, 2, 4, 3, or 7
INFJ = 4, 1, or 5
ENFP = 7, 2, 4, 3, 6, or 8
INFP = 4, 9, or 6
ESTJ = 8, 6, 3, 1 or 9
ISTJ = 1, 6, 5, 8, or 9
ESTP = 3, 7, 8, or 1
ISTP = 5, 9, 7, or 2
ESFJ = 2, 3, 6, or 9
ISFJ = 6, 1, 2, 9, or 3
ESFP = 7, 2, 8, or 4
ISFP = 9, 2, 4, or 6

Concluding from this:

ENTJ = any aggressive reform movement
INTJ = rationalistic cult, Gnosticism
ENTP = social gospel?
INTP = ancient mystical faith
ENFJ = social justice?
INFJ = ritualism with emphasis on justice
ENFP = charismatic social faith
INFP = ritualism with emphasis on peace
ESTJ = aggressive authoritarian faith
ISTJ = moralism
ESTP = social faith
ISTP = probably mystical protestantism (possibly Eckhart?)
ESFJ = social gospel
ISFJ = moralism
ESFP = charismatic social faith, New Age
ISFP = pacifism

This is quick analysis based upon the correlation patterns and can be vastly improved.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

... Rationals (NT)

These types are basically Godless and evil. Their choice of "faith" should reflect that.

INTP: INTPs are always right, therefore they should skip right to atheism, with an option on immortality as a simulation in a computer of unimaginable complexity at the end of time as proven by the laws of physics...

ENTP: You are also always right, yet like all EPs lack an attention span. Try agnosticism, and try not thinking about it too much...

Yeah, as an xNTP, I'm a blend.

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Hmm . . . I never thought myself as a Extreme Islamist type . . . maybe I need to take a more thourough test.

I don't think this was meant to be taken seriously.