Originally Posted by Seadog '66

I believe the spirituality correlations are actually stronger with the Enneagram, and then it is simply a case of correlating Enneagram types with MBTI types (a given MBTI type may fit two or three type options per Enneagram). Richard Rohr did a good job with Enneagram spirituality correlations, despite the fact that he is regarded as an uber-heretic by traditionalists in his own Roman Catholic Church. According to my notes, he correlated Enneagram types as follows:

1) "The Need to Be Perfect" = Puritans, Reformers, Pharisees; idealism, moralism, perfectionism.
2) "The Need to Be Needed" = best when they can love and serve; helping poor, etc.
3) "The Need to Succeed" = American Gospel of achievement, affluence, and success.
4) "The Need to Be Special" = "The world will be saved by beauty"; ritual = reality; ecumenically-oriented.
5) "The Need to Perceive" = Buddhism, Sufism, Hassidism, Orthodoxy; monks, hermits, ascetics.
6) "The Need for Security/Certainty" = Roman Catholicism, Southern Baptism, Protestant fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism.
7) "The Need to Avoid Pain" = Charismatic movement, New Age
8) "The Need to Be Against" = liberation theology
9) "The Need to Avoid" = liberal Protestantism; avoid clear dogmatic statements, emphasis on peace.

I disagree with some of these. For one, I would categorize the Four as Needing Romance (romance in the sense of the romance of medievalism, for instance) rather than needing to be Special. Needing to be special is far too vague, IMO. But then again, I'm a five with a four wing so my opinion on this may be biased. As for Seven, I would say that they need excitement. For eights, I would say that they need to feel powerful. And for nines, I would say that they need inner peace.

Originally Posted by Vince Lamb '59

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

ENTJ: Religion has its uses. Money, power and easy access to willing sex partners leap immediately to mind. Try starting your own cult. The exact type of cult should be determined by your background and aesthetic tastes, and by the pre-existing inclinations of the pathetic sheep-people who surround you which you can exploit.

:lol:

Don't give me any ideas.

:twisted:

As an INTP, I don't mind easy access to willing sex partners. INTPs make very good advisors. Perhaps, I can join you?? :twisted:

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Let me try to simplify it, guessing the order of correlations for each type:

ENTJ = 8, 1, or 3
INTJ = 5, or 1
ENTP = 3, 8, 9, or 1
INTP = 5, 6, or 7
ENFJ = 1, 2, 4, 3, or 7
INFJ = 4, 1, or 5
ENFP = 7, 2, 4, 3, 6, or 8
INFP = 4, 9, or 6
ESTJ = 8, 6, 3, 1 or 9
ISTJ = 1, 6, 5, 8, or 9
ESTP = 3, 7, 8, or 1
ISTP = 5, 9, 7, or 2
ESFJ = 2, 3, 6, or 9
ISFJ = 6, 1, 2, 9, or 3
ESFP = 7, 2, 8, or 4
ISFP = 9, 2, 4, or 6

Concluding from this:

ENTJ = any aggressive reform movement
INTJ = rationalistic cult, Gnosticism
ENTP = social gospel?
INTP = ancient mystical faith
ENFJ = social justice?
INFJ = ritualism with emphasis on justice
ENFP = charismatic social faith
INFP = ritualism with emphasis on peace
ESTJ = aggressive authoritarian faith
ISTJ = moralism
ESTP = social faith
ISTP = probably mystical protestantism (possibly Eckhart?)
ESFJ = social gospel
ISFJ = moralism
ESFP = charismatic social faith, New Age
ISFP = pacifism

This is quick analysis based upon the correlation patterns and can be vastly improved.

I guess, this is how I see how the types will match up.

ENTJ: I don't see ENTJs as being very religious. Maybe they would like aggressive reform movements, but I think that they would like it not for the feelings of spirituality, but for the purpose of organizing change in a system. ENTJs are going straight to hell when they die.
INTJ: A rationalist cult sounds like an oxymoron. To me, INTJs just don't correlate very well with religion or spirituality. I think that they are more prone to spirituality because their NI is dominant while the Fi is tertiary. For the ENTJ, however, the Te is dominant while the Se is tertiary. At the most for ENTJs and especially INTJs, I think that they would be more atracted to ancient mythology, as they love D&D more than any other type. With a dominant Ni, any religion that utilizes vivid imagination with outer-world organization should attract them. INTJs have no chance of getting to heaven.
ENTP: I agree with you here. Many of American History's most revered prophets have been ENTPs. Malcolm X was an extraordinarily good prophet, definitely an ENTP. I think that they would be drawn to religions that rely on both social justice and charisma. They have SOME chance of entering god's kingdom, although not much.
INTPs: INTPs would be less religious than ENTPs, with their Dominant Ti. They would be less drawn to charismatic religion than ENTPs. I agree that ancient mysticism would attract INTPs. They are also attracted to Taoism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, etc. Like the INTJs, they will be attracted to "the mysteries". INTPs will also be as attracted to atheism as the INTJs. Also, since xNxPs are heavy drug abusers compared to everyone else, they will be attracted to religious experiences using mind-altering substances. Most INTPs know that they are hell-bound anyway. God created INTPs for the sole purpose of damnation to hell. Why do you think that INTPs and INTJs are interested in life-extension? :lol:
ENFJs: Where INTPs and INTJs are the most non-religious types, the ENFJ is the most religious. Really, I think that this type is good with most religions. They will be attracted to religions that tout spiritualism along with social outreach. They would make spell binding orators. They are also extremely good evangelists. They will make it to heaven...that is, unless they were unlucky enough to be born in a non-Christian nation.
INFJ: They also tend to be deeply religious. Because of their dominant Ni, they will, like INTJs, be attracted to mysteries. Any religion they follow will need deep soul searching. While ENFJs would like social outreach, INFJs are more interested in personal outreach. With this, most religions would be good for INFJs. They, too, are usually bound for heaven.
ENFP: While not very "religious" lile the xNFJs, they are still deeply spiritual. Like ENTPs, they will be drawn to religions that rely in charisma, and on issues of social and economic justice. They are no so much Prophets as the ENTPs are, but are more like Shamans. Like ENFJs, they will be attracted to social outreach. However, ENFPs are more drawn to alternative (Pagan, occult, New Age) religions rather than the traditional, community supported religions. They are spiritual, but they are not as likely to see the kindgom of god as the xNFJs.
INFP: With a dominant Fi, they harbor a very deep spirituality. Like the other INxx types, they will be more drawn to mysteries. INFPs love the occult. They will be drawn to religions that tout deep soul searching. Being an xNxP type, they will be drawn to the usage of mind altering substances. They are attracted to personal outreach like the INFJs. However, they are more interested in alternative religions than mainstream ones. They are the Joan of Arcs of the world. They will not hesitate to sacrifice themselves (and perhaps, other people) for a cause they deeply believe in. Because they tend to be so unassuming, it is rather easy for them to become caught up in some sort of cult, which means that Vince Lamb should go after these types. :wink: BTW, INFPs are more likely to be hell-bound than the other NFs, but still a far better chance of getting to heaven than NTs.
ESTJ: I basically agree that ESTJs are drawn to an authoritarian faith. I doubt that they are very spiritual themselves. The only usage of religion for these types is to maintain civil order, to maintain the structural integrity of social institutions and traditions. They need to believe in a being more powerful than themselves. Because they follow the rules, they are mostly bound for heaven. For those who abuse little kids, there is a nice, hot bed waiting for them in hell. More than any other type, ESTJs love to say to others (in the words of Eddie Griffith, mocking a countryman in Mississippi, or Kansas for that matter): "Yer goin' ta HEEELLLLLL". They tend to think that god gave THEM the authority to send people to hell.
ISTJ: I agree that ISTJs tend to be moralistic (Kiff defies this stereotype, though. I would really hate to see such a good person experience damnation, though. Sorry Kiff, but Yer goin' ta HEEELLLL!!!!!!). They also tend to be perfectionists. They are attracted to traditional religion. More than the ESTJs, they believe in maintaining civil order, and keeping up the structural integrity of institutions and traditions. With this, they make it their job to oversee what others are going, and reporting on it. Except for Kiff, ISTJs are going to heaven. ;-) :lol:
ESTP: They just follow whatever is useful for the time. They are good at pretending that they follow a religion when they don't. They can be like ESTJs in some respects, but they have much less regard for the rules. When they do follow religion, it tends to be based upon action in the social world. They don't have the Prophetic power of ENTPs, but are just as charismatic. ESTPs make VERY good preachers. They work best in evangelical religions. Unless they abuse your authority, they are heaven bound if they are evangelical. They also tend to follow religion for the discipline needed to refrain from self-destructive impulses. If you want to save your ESTP child from damnation, make sure your church has a sports-based after school program. The only types that are more hellbound are the INTJs and the INTPs. ESTPs just don't bother thinking about their beliefs. INTPs and INTJs, however, spend lots of time considering it, and usually realize that they are some godless bastards if there ever were any. INTPs and INTJs learn to accept their fate by the time they are 3 years old, while ESTPs are often when god rejects them.
ISTP: They have a better chance to make it to heaven than ESTPs, believe it or not. They tend to be more loyal, and more drawn to tradition than ESTPs. They like religion based upon action. They like helping other people. For the most part, they are still hell-bound as they like to do things their own way. Sorry Andy. ;-)
ESFJ: They tend to be very religious, mainly drawn to traditional religions. They believe in maintaining civil order, but do it by maintaining community cohesion, and keeping up with social rituals. They participate in religious traditions. It's hard to imagine them experiencing damnation (unless, of course, they were born in a non-Christian family).
ISFJ: They are very traditional people. Their main interest is in service to others. They will be drawn to traditional religions. They, like the ISTJs, might be very interested in religions that seem extraordinarily dry, but if it gets them to heaven, so be it. If you are non-Christian, just drink and f*ck cuz Yer goin' ta HEEELLL!!
ESFP: They tend to be charismatic. Many of them are very religious. They However, they have a hard time resisting pleasurable experiences. They often form much of the artistic experiences of a religion, such as song and dance. Because they have less self-control than ESFJs, many are going to hell.
ISFP: They have better self-control than ESFPs. Many are spiritual, but do it in their own way. They are very artistic, and like ESFPs, are able to physically express religion and spirituality. They tend to be very peaceful, but peace does not always get you into heaven. Because most are unwilling to kill infidels, they will be escorted to hell when they die.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

ISTJ: I agree that ISTJs tend to be moralistic (Kiff defies this stereotype, though. I would really hate to see such a good person experience damnation, though. Sorry Kiff, but Yer goin' ta HEEELLLL!!!!!!). They also tend to be perfectionists. They are attracted to traditional religion. More than the ESTJs, they believe in maintaining civil order, and keeping up the structural integrity of institutions and traditions. With this, they make it their job to oversee what others are going, and reporting on it. Except for Kiff, ISTJs are going to heaven.

Dude, smilies!! :shock: :shock:

P.S. I don't believe in aitch-ee-double hockey sticks anyway. ;-)

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

ISTJ: I agree that ISTJs tend to be moralistic (Kiff defies this stereotype, though. I would really hate to see such a good person experience damnation, though. Sorry Kiff, but Yer goin' ta HEEELLLL!!!!!!). They also tend to be perfectionists. They are attracted to traditional religion. More than the ESTJs, they believe in maintaining civil order, and keeping up the structural integrity of institutions and traditions. With this, they make it their job to oversee what others are going, and reporting on it. Except for Kiff, ISTJs are going to heaven.

Dude, smilies!! :shock: :shock:

P.S. I don't believe in aitch-ee-double hockey sticks anyway. ;-)

Sorry. I'll edit my post to make sure that there are smilies. :-) Besides, I'll be in hell too. Most people at this site have bought themselves a one way ticket to hell. I guess we'll have the largest 4T gathering ever down there. :mrgreen:

Since I am borderline ISTJ and INTJ, means I am much stumped for choice when it comes to religion. Either I go for Objectivism or Rationalist forms of Protestantism (Presybertianism, Methodist, and Lutheran etc).

I am an ENxx, heavy, heavy, heavy on the N. I fit in too many categories.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

I believe the spirituality correlations are actually stronger with the Enneagram, and then it is simply a case of correlating Enneagram types with MBTI types (a given MBTI type may fit two or three type options per Enneagram). Richard Rohr did a good job with Enneagram spirituality correlations, despite the fact that he is regarded as an uber-heretic by traditionalists in his own Roman Catholic Church. According to my notes, he correlated Enneagram types as follows:

1) "The Need to Be Perfect" = Puritans, Reformers, Pharisees; idealism, moralism, perfectionism.
2) "The Need to Be Needed" = best when they can love and serve; helping poor, etc.
3) "The Need to Succeed" = American Gospel of achievement, affluence, and success.
4) "The Need to Be Special" = "The world will be saved by beauty"; ritual = reality; ecumenically-oriented.
5) "The Need to Perceive" = Buddhism, Sufism, Hassidism, Orthodoxy; monks, hermits, ascetics.
6) "The Need for Security/Certainty" = Roman Catholicism, Southern Baptism, Protestant fundamentalism, Islamic fundamentalism.
7) "The Need to Avoid Pain" = Charismatic movement, New Age
8) "The Need to Be Against" = liberation theology
9) "The Need to Avoid" = liberal Protestantism; avoid clear dogmatic statements, emphasis on peace.

I disagree with some of these. For one, I would categorize the Four as Needing Romance (romance in the sense of the romance of medievalism, for instance) rather than needing to be Special. Needing to be special is far too vague, IMO. But then again, I'm a five with a four wing so my opinion on this may be biased. As for Seven, I would say that they need excitement. For eights, I would say that they need to feel powerful. And for nines, I would say that they need inner peace.

No conflicts here. I believe Fours do indeed tend to be romantics. There are whole chapters dedicated to each type and I just hit the summary statements. Fours feel a compulsion to be "different" or "unique." They are the "disillusioned artist" type and artists typically go out of their way to NOT march in lockstep with society. They have a drive to be different, which is to say, "special." No conflict with Sevens either. They are uber-Add Epicureans who seek excitement in order to avoid pain or anything negative. Eights need to be against something, often just for the sake of being against it, in order to feel worthy, indeed powerful.

Check with Meece about wings, etc. I believe he has conclusively demonstrated that the E-gram types are simply knock-offs of astrological "planets" and in order as well! Three represents the Sun. Start there and go backwards all the way back around to Four which is Neptune. You hit all the "planets" in order. It is perhaps no accident that Gurdjieff "introduced" this thing around 1915 when Neptune was known but Pluto was yet to be discovered. One wonders whether there would have been _ten_ types, had he come out with it after 1930!

In any case, if this is simply a model of the astrological solar system, then "wings" are an absurd concept (which seemed obvious all along given the lack of any discernable continuity from one type to the next). The same goes for "lines of integration" and whatever other high-blown conclusions have been drawn from the thing. If you really want to know what the E-gram says about you, take your order of planetary influences from your astrological birthchart and translate the "planets" to types. Here is my converted order:

Uranus = Five
Pluto = ---
Jupiter = Seven
Saturn = Six
Mars = Eight
Sun = Three
Neptune = Four
Mercury = One
Venus = Nine
Moon = Two

The only thing not taken into account, and it probably needs to be taken into account, is the influence of the signs in which the planets are found. But as far as I know, Eric has yet to devise a good formula for factoring this in. I suspect that the most accurate ordering would shift my Sun down below Neptune and Mercury, and it could conceivably juxtapose a few other planets. In any case, that is roughly what the E-gram has to say about me. Your order is likely not identical. The "wing" concept really has no application.

Originally Posted by Tristan

Since I am borderline ISTJ and INTJ, means I am much stumped for choice when it comes to religion. Either I go for Objectivism or Rationalist forms of Protestantism (Presybertianism, Methodist, and Lutheran etc).

I don't see Methodism and Lutheranism as overly rationalistic, at least not when compared to Calvinism. Methodism and Lutheranism seem to appeal to the heart where Calvinism appeals to the mind. If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect. If you are INTJ, you are probably given to Gnosticism before anything else. In terms of Christianity, you might find your way to Orthodoxy or secondarily to Calvinism, but little else. Of course, you would probably prefer Buddhism to Christianity.

Originally Posted by Shemsu Heru

ENTJ: I don't see ENTJs as being very religious. Maybe they would like aggressive reform movements, but I think that they would like it not for the feelings of spirituality, but for the purpose of organizing change in a system.

Exactly.

INTJ: A rationalist cult sounds like an oxymoron.

Scientology popped into my head (although I have never really read up on the specific beliefs. The Raelians (or whatever you call them) also come to mind. Of course you have the full panorama of Gnostic sects through history.

To me, INTJs just don't correlate very well with religion or spirituality. I think that they are more prone to spirituality because their NI is dominant while the Fi is tertiary. For the ENTJ, however, the Te is dominant while the Se is tertiary.

I do not think it has much to do with the order of functions. True religion is something that is revealed to you on its own terms; it's not something that you arrive at on your own terms. Anybody can be "awakened" regardless of type. It is just that it is much harder to picture certain types ever being "awakened."

INTPs: INTPs would be less religious than ENTPs, with their Dominant Ti.

This just means that they are harder for an outside intelligence to reach; they are a "tougher nut to crack."

I agree that ancient mysticism would attract INTPs. They are also attracted to Taoism, Buddhism, Gnosticism, etc. Like the INTJs, they will be attracted to "the mysteries".

I think the difference lies in the extreme visual-spatial nature of the INTP. I am not sure if INTJs are classified as auditory, but I do not believe they are noted for being visual-spatial, at least not anywhere near the extent to which INTPs are. The INTP invariably tries to picture in his mind how the whole complex, in this case spiritual, system works. By contrast, the INTJ may try to understand God (or spirit in general) through abstract mathematical formulae in the absence of visualization. It just strikes me that INTPs are more geometric and trigonometric whereas INTJs are more algebraic. Somehow this distinction leads the INTP to seek (Revealed) Truth in its original context (ancient faith) while the INTJ seeks (Revealed) Truth in the absence of any context. If both are mystics, the INTP is more prone to assess Experience in light of Revelation (context!), which is Orthodoxy. By contrast, the INTJ probably feels less bound by the context (Revelation) and may well rebel against it. The INTJ is thus more prone to Gnosticism whereas the INTP is more prone to Orthodoxy, even though both could go for one or the other. It is all a question of the value attached to context in terms of assessing truth which, I believe, is related to the INTP's extreme visual-spatial nature. And I am not exactly sure why I say this, but it seems clearly placed in my head.

INTPs will also be as attracted to atheism as the INTJs.

I would guess that INTPs are more prone to agnosticism and INTJs are more prone to atheism. And it again occurs to me that the INTP's extreme visual-spatial thinking is behind the difference. So long as you are visualizing a system, it is rather difficult to lose sight of the fact that some sort of intelligence had to create it or somehow bring it into being (agnosticism). On the other hand, if the INTJ relies more on abstract equations in the absence of visualization, what he is contemplating seems less "real" and it is that much easier to lose sight of the fact that some sort of intelligence must have brought it into being (atheism).

Most INTPs know that they are hell-bound anyway. God created INTPs for the sole purpose of damnation to hell.

Dude, quit hanging around with Calvinists! :lol:

BTW, INFPs are more likely to be hell-bound than the other NFs, but still a far better chance of getting to heaven than NTs.

For INFP spirituality, I get the image of the three hags stirring the cauldron in Macbeth! :lol:

ESTJ: I basically agree that ESTJs are drawn to an authoritarian faith. I doubt that they are very spiritual themselves. The only usage of religion for these types is to maintain civil order, to maintain the structural integrity of social institutions and traditions.

And to propagandistically defend the Bush administration at all costs (the Ends Justify the Means). ESTJs seem like born Jesuits. To borrow your terminology, they are going straight to hell. :lol:

They need to believe in a being more powerful than themselves.

I think they need to believe that they are more powerful than their opposition. In so doing, they lose their meekness, their humility, and condemn themselves to hell. :lol:

Because they follow the rules, they are mostly bound for heaven.

Ah, but they only follow them when someone's looking. That is part and parcel of why they are going straight to hell. :lol:

More than any other type, ESTJs love to say to others (in the words of Eddie Griffith, mocking a countryman in Mississippi, or Kansas for that matter): "Yer goin' ta HEEELLLLLL". They tend to think that god gave THEM the authority to send people to hell.

:lol: Which is part and parcel of why they themselves are goin' ta HELLLLLLLL.

ISTJ: I agree that ISTJs tend to be moralistic (Kiff defies this stereotype, though.

I suspect that is because Kiff is a Type Five, only the tertiary type for ISTJs, and fairly rare. Most are either Ones or Sixes. Ones are puritans and perfectionists, Sixes are fundamentalists and authoritarian lapdogs, but Fives have much more open minds and, thus, much greater tolerance. What it is really saying is that Kiff's dominant planet is likely Uranus, whereas most ISTJs have either Mercury or Saturn as their dominant planet.

I would really hate to see such a good person experience damnation, though. Sorry Kiff, but Yer goin' ta HEEELLLL!!!!!!). They also tend to be perfectionists. They are attracted to traditional religion.

I would say that they might be attracted to the particular tradition which they have inherited.

More than the ESTJs, they believe in maintaining civil order, and keeping up the structural integrity of institutions and traditions. With this, they make it their job to oversee what others are going, and reporting on it.

Yes, Inspector #9 on the underwear commercial was no doubt an ISTJ. If anybody slipped a dirty pair in there, she would instantly know it, track down the miscreant, and bring him in, dead or alive.

ESTP: They just follow whatever is useful for the time. They are good at pretending that they follow a religion when they don't.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Yes!

They can be like ESTJs in some respects, but they have much less regard for the rules.

They have much less regard for the rules when people are looking. I give the ESTJ the upper hand in breaking the rules when nobody's looking. :lol:

If you want to save your ESTP child from damnation, make sure your church has a sports-based after school program.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

INTPs and INTJs learn to accept their fate by the time they are 3 years old,

Yikes! I don't know about that, man.

ESFP: They However, they have a hard time resisting pleasurable experiences.

Fun girls, they are. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect.

This ISTJ is about to join the United Church of Christ, FWIW. ;-)

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

I suspect that is because Kiff is a Type Five, only the tertiary type for ISTJs, and fairly rare. Most are either Ones or Sixes. Ones are puritans and perfectionists, Sixes are fundamentalists and authoritarian lapdogs, but Fives have much more open minds and, thus, much greater tolerance. What it is really saying is that Kiff's dominant planet is likely Uranus, whereas most ISTJs have either Mercury or Saturn as their dominant planet.

Well, as a matter of fact, I am an Aquarian, so Uranus is indeed my dominant planet.

:shock:

This almost makes sense. :lol:

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect. .

Ugh! Not me!

I'm happy with a religion with beautiful music, traditions and rituals, and not a lot of dogma. In short, Reform Judaism!

I guess I am a "bad" ISTJ! :wink:

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

I suspect that is because Kiff is a Type Five, only the tertiary type for ISTJs, and fairly rare. Most are either Ones or Sixes. Ones are puritans and perfectionists, Sixes are fundamentalists and authoritarian lapdogs, but Fives have much more open minds and, thus, much greater tolerance. What it is really saying is that Kiff's dominant planet is likely Uranus, whereas most ISTJs have either Mercury or Saturn as their dominant planet.

Well, as a matter of fact, I am an Aquarian, so Uranus is indeed my dominant planet.

:shock:

This almost makes sense. :lol:

Happy birthday. BTW, I just found the actual correlation table again and the ISTJ ordering was slightly different from that which I deduced earlier from my notes. The _second_ greatest portion of ISTJs are Fives, not the third, and the numbers are not terribly far behind the leading group at Type One. Sixes are the third group. Here is the link:

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/charts.html

Go to the I-values table toward the bottom. The ISTJ order is 1, 5, 6, 8, 9 (I drop all values below 1.0).

BTW, do not confuse the idea that those balls out there in space have some meaning in the mind of the God with the conceit that we know enough about their meanings to reliably predict future events with any specificity as astrologers will continue to do no matter how many times their predictions do not bear out. But those balls do appear to have meaning in the mind of the Creator even if we only grasp those meanings ever so vaguely. To test it yourself, dig up astrological temperament tests which rank the signs in your makeup. You will probably find that the planets corresponding to your consistently top-rated signs also correspond to the most influential planets in your chart (if Mr. Meece has helped you here).

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect.

This ISTJ is about to join the United Church of Christ, FWIW. ;-)

Which is the modern evolution of the Congregationalist churches of New England, which were simply the churches of the Independent Calvinists (they only differed with Presbyterians on church government). What specifically is preached may have changed much, but it is undoubtedly still highly rationalistic...in the Calvinist tradition.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Happy birthday.

Thanks. (It's actually Friday, but I won't be online that day)

BTW, do not confuse the idea that those balls out there in space have some meaning in the mind of the God with the conceit that we know enough about their meanings to reliably predict future events with any specificity as astrologers will continue to do no matter how many times their predictions do not bear out. But those balls do appear to have meaning in the mind of the Creator even if we only grasp those meanings ever so vaguely. To test it yourself, dig up astrological temperament tests which rank the signs in your makeup. You will probably find that the planets corresponding to your consistently top-rated signs also correspond to the most influential planets in your chart (if Mr. Meece has helped you here).

It's a fun exercise, but I don't take it too seriously. ;-)

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect.

This ISTJ is about to join the United Church of Christ, FWIW. ;-)

Which is the modern evolution of the Congregationalist churches of New England, which were simply the churches of the Independent Calvinists (they only differed with Presbyterians on church government). What specifically is preached may have changed much, but it is undoubtedly still highly rationalistic...in the Calvinist tradition.

True enough. Remember I had high S&R scores on Eric's philosophy test and fell into the Aquinas/Hegel/Kant sector, IIRC. ;-)

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

What it is really saying is that Kiff's dominant planet is likely Uranus...

Well, as a matter of fact, I am an Aquarian, so Uranus is indeed my dominant planet. :shock:

Delightful navel-gazing conversation going on here, folks. Aside of the recent, deep and penetrating, er, discussion about the "mail dominated" forum here, this Uranus chat reminds me of a "What planet are gays from?" joke I once told... um... chuckle, chuckle... 8)

p.s. Sure beats listening to der Bush tonight, with all those endless Sieg Heils, I bet. Like, hey, man, up Uranus! :wink:

Robert - works for me. I am an ENTJ who hasn't the foggiest notion of what spirituality is and not the slightest inclination to find out - my life is just fine without it. I know there must be such a thing because William James, in "The Varieties of Religious Experience" wrote about it and my father, a Presbyterian minister, talked about it a lot. If there is such a thing as a "God gene", I guess I missed out - does that make me a mutant? Or is it that ENTJ's are naturally that way?

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Originally Posted by David Krein

Robert - works for me. I am an ENTJ who hasn't the foggiest notion of what spirituality is and not the slightest inclination to find out - my life is just fine without it. I know there must be such a thing because William James, in "The Varieties of Religious Experience" wrote about it and my father, a Presbyterian minister, talked about it a lot. If there is such a thing as a "God gene", I guess I missed out - does that make me a mutant? Or is it that ENTJ's are naturally that way?

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Dave,

Here's a quick test to determined if you have the "God gene." I wondereing if the God gene has dominant and recessive alleles. If so, then a true believer would be homozygously dominant, an athetist would be homozygously recessive, and an agnostic would be heterozygously confused, defaulting to the domiance of God, of course.

--Croakmore (INTJ or INTP)

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Originally Posted by David Krein

Robert - works for me. I am an ENTJ who hasn't the foggiest notion of what spirituality is and not the slightest inclination to find out - my life is just fine without it. I know there must be such a thing because William James, in "The Varieties of Religious Experience" wrote about it and my father, a Presbyterian minister, talked about it a lot. If there is such a thing as a "God gene", I guess I missed out - does that make me a mutant? Or is it that ENTJ's are naturally that way?

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Dave,

Here's a quick test to determined if you have the "God gene." I wondereing if the God gene has dominant and recessive alleles. If so, then a true believer would be homozygously dominant, an athetist would be homozygously recessive, and an agnostic would be heterozygously confused, defaulting to the domiance of God, of course.

--Croakmore (INTJ or INTP)

Mr. E.

I scored an 11. High average on their scale.

Does that make me a carrier? :shock:

Originally Posted by Peter Gibbons

Originally Posted by Croakmore

Originally Posted by David Krein

Robert - works for me. I am an ENTJ who hasn't the foggiest notion of what spirituality is and not the slightest inclination to find out - my life is just fine without it. I know there must be such a thing because William James, in "The Varieties of Religious Experience" wrote about it and my father, a Presbyterian minister, talked about it a lot. If there is such a thing as a "God gene", I guess I missed out - does that make me a mutant? Or is it that ENTJ's are naturally that way?

Pax,

Dave Krein '42

Dave,

Here's a quick test to determined if you have the "God gene." I wondereing if the God gene has dominant and recessive alleles. If so, then a true believer would be homozygously dominant, an athetist would be homozygously recessive, and an agnostic would be heterozygously confused, defaulting to the domiance of God, of course.

--Croakmore (INTJ or INTP)

Mr. E.

I scored an 11. High average on their scale.

Does that make me a carrier? :shock:

19.5/INTP

Originally Posted by [i

Time[/i] Test]10. Even after thinking about something a long time, I have learned to trust my feelings more than my logical reasons.

is a sometime thing so I gave myself a half point.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

I do not think it has much to do with the order of functions. True religion is something that is revealed to you on its own terms; it's not something that you arrive at on your own terms. Anybody can be "awakened" regardless of type. It is just that it is much harder to picture certain types ever being "awakened."

Very true.

I think the difference lies in the extreme visual-spatial nature of the INTP. I am not sure if INTJs are classified as auditory, but I do not believe they are noted for being visual-spatial, at least not anywhere near the extent to which INTPs are. The INTP invariably tries to picture in his mind how the whole complex, in this case spiritual, system works. By contrast, the INTJ may try to understand God (or spirit in general) through abstract mathematical formulae in the absence of visualization. It just strikes me that INTPs are more geometric and trigonometric whereas INTJs are more algebraic. Somehow this distinction leads the INTP to seek (Revealed) Truth in its original context (ancient faith) while the INTJ seeks (Revealed) Truth in the absence of any context. If both are mystics, the INTP is more prone to assess Experience in light of Revelation (context!), which is Orthodoxy. By contrast, the INTJ probably feels less bound by the context (Revelation) and may well rebel against it. The INTJ is thus more prone to Gnosticism whereas the INTP is more prone to Orthodoxy, even though both could go for one or the other. It is all a question of the value attached to context in terms of assessing truth which, I believe, is related to the INTP's extreme visual-spatial nature. And I am not exactly sure why I say this, but it seems clearly placed in my head.

Very interesting. So, an INTP Buddha would try to stay as true to the oriinal Buddha as possible, while an INTJ would try to adapt it to today's world? Or am I misunderstanding?

I would guess that INTPs are more prone to agnosticism and INTJs are more prone to atheism. And it again occurs to me that the INTP's extreme visual-spatial thinking is behind the difference. So long as you are visualizing a system, it is rather difficult to lose sight of the fact that some sort of intelligence had to create it or somehow bring it into being (agnosticism). On the other hand, if the INTJ relies more on abstract equations in the absence of visualization, what he is contemplating seems less "real" and it is that much easier to lose sight of the fact that some sort of intelligence must have brought it into being (atheism).

I aree that INTPs are more prone to agnosticism. I am an agnostic myself. I always thought that it is because INTPs are much more uncertain of knowledge, while INTJs are more certain of it. Or simply, intelligent design has not been disproven.

[quote]For INFP spirituality, I get the image of the three hags stirring the cauldron in Macbeth! :lol:

ISTJ: I agree that ISTJs tend to be moralistic (Kiff defies this stereotype, though.

I suspect that is because Kiff is a Type Five, only the tertiary type for ISTJs, and fairly rare. Most are either Ones or Sixes. Ones are puritans and perfectionists, Sixes are fundamentalists and authoritarian lapdogs, but Fives have much more open minds and, thus, much greater tolerance. What it is really saying is that Kiff's dominant planet is likely Uranus, whereas most ISTJs have either Mercury or Saturn as their dominant planet.

Very likely so.

They have much less regard for the rules when people are looking. I give the ESTJ the upper hand in breaking the rules when nobody's looking. :lol:

So, are the priests who sexually abuse little boys ESTPs or ESTJs?

INTPs and INTJs learn to accept their fate by the time they are 3 years old,

Yikes! I don't know about that, man.

For real, though, I was a Christian until I began to enter my mid teens.

ESFP: They However, they have a hard time resisting pleasurable experiences.

Fun girls, they are. :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

See? Why is it that people who like pleasure get sent to hell? I think that types that send "love" to others deserve a place in heaven. :mrgreen: I could use some "good luvin" right about now.

Originally Posted by Kiff 1961

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect.

This ISTJ is about to join the United Church of Christ, FWIW. ;-)

If I was still a religious person, I would definitely consider joining.

Originally Posted by Distinguished Toastmaster

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

If you are an ISTJ, I suspect that Calvinism (preferably of the Presbyterian variety) is your best bet. Secondarily you could consider Roman Catholicism or some fundamentalist sect. .

Ugh! Not me!

I'm happy with a religion with beautiful music, traditions and rituals, and not a lot of dogma. In short, Reform Judaism!

I guess I am a "bad" ISTJ! :wink:

I hear that hell has some out of this world BBQ. Want to join me in the afterlife? :wink: