Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Originally Posted by jeffw

Oh well, I guess the interest in this topic has waned. Does anyone know of any other forums where Myers-Briggs typing is discussed?

I would PM Seadog. He's a resident expert, and still lurks here. I'm sure he'll pick-up a PM.

Ho! I've just read a few books, like everybody else who comments on this thread. Robert Reed is probably far more adept at this analysis. He should comment if he finds his way here.


Jeffw: I cannot guess at her correct type without more information. I was only addressing Roadbuilder's interpretation of the functions. Again, Robert Reed (not sure what his handle is these days) should be much more up on this stuff and, thus, much better equipped to make a judgment. Perhaps he will cruise by here soon.

Well this whole business of determining someone else's type doesn't come easily to me, perhaps because Fe is the least developed function in an INTP.

While we're waiting for Mr. Reed, I found some interesting tidbits about the 8 Jungian functions in a book by Lenore Thomson called "Personality Type: An Owner's Manual".

She says there has been research done using PET scanning that locates the functions in the brain thusly:

Left Brain.....Right Brain
Te................Ne
Fe................Se

Si.................Fi
Ni.................Ti

The left brain is described as verbal, linear, and rational while the right brain is visual, tactile, physical, and holistic. Matching this up with the function locations you will see that the judging functions are extraverted on the left side while the perceiving functions are extraverted on the right. And given the way that J and P are defined, this explains why the J and P type descriptions are so similar to the left and right brain attributes.

This gives rise to these, hopefully better, descriptions of the 8 functions:

Te - left brain - verbal analysis and abstract logic
Ti - right brain - visual, tactile, and spatial logic
Fe - left brain - recognizes signs of relationships and draws rational conclusions about behavior
Fi - right brain - subjective ideas about human values
Se - right brain - physicality and material investment
Si - left brain - acquires facts and impressions (also keeps us in touch with what matters to us)
Ne - right brain - holistic, what we usually think of as intuitive
Ni - left brain - moves beyond boundaries of language (not really sure what that means)

Originally Posted by jeffw

Well this whole business of determining someone else's type doesn't come easily to me, perhaps because Fe is the least developed function in an INTP.

I doubt that Fe has much of anything to do with it. Most of the people at this site (or at least a highly inordinate share of them) appear to be INTPs, including Robert Reed and myself. Indeed these types are based on Jung's theory of temperament and Jung identified himself as "Introverted Thinker with Intuition" which translates to "INTP" in MBTI terms. It really comes down to reading the right sources such that one can finally grasp the essence of each function and, thus, understand each type intuitively. Unfortunately, I am not as fresh on temperament modelling as I once was, mainly because I no longer believe that things are quite that simple.

While we're waiting for Mr. Reed, I found some interesting tidbits about the 8 Jungian functions in a book by Lenore Thomson called "Personality Type: An Owner's Manual".

She says there has been research done using PET scanning that locates the functions in the brain thusly:

Left Brain.....Right Brain
Te................Ne
Fe................Se

Si.................Fi
Ni.................Ti

The left brain is described as verbal, linear, and rational while the right brain is visual, tactile, physical, and holistic. Matching this up with the function locations you will see that the judging functions are extraverted on the left side while the perceiving functions are extraverted on the right. And given the way that J and P are defined, this explains why the J and P type descriptions are so similar to the left and right brain attributes.

This gives rise to these, hopefully better, descriptions of the 8 functions:

Te - left brain - verbal analysis and abstract logic
Ti - right brain - visual, tactile, and spatial logic
Fe - left brain - recognizes signs of relationships and draws rational conclusions about behavior
Fi - right brain - subjective ideas about human values
Se - right brain - physicality and material investment
Si - left brain - acquires facts and impressions (also keeps us in touch with what matters to us)
Ne - right brain - holistic, what we usually think of as intuitive
Ni - left brain - moves beyond boundaries of language (not really sure what that means)

Fascinating. And I am with you in not understanding what is meant by Ni.

Interesting view from Jeff; food for thought. Jeff's alignments seem to imply that opposites are easily combined, so that you can have "visceral logic" and so on.

Using the e and i distinctions is not something I rely on. I may be missing something there though. Whether being introverted or extraverted would really change a function to being left instead of right-brained, I don't know. But I do agree that J is left-brained and P is right-brained.

Associating J with feeling and thinking, and P with sensing and intuiting, seems problematic, given that Js can be very intuitive in their scores, Ps can be thinkers, etc.

Some things I have run across in the general typing topic, leaning toward my more esoteric interests:

One ancient idea is that of the "four humors," and they are associated with constituents in the blood. According to Titus Burckhardt,

"to air corresponds the red constituent of blood, to fire yellow bile, to water phlegm, and to earth black bile." Alchemy, p.129

These correspond to four temperaments: sanguine (air, blood, red), coleric (fire, yellow bile), phlegmatic (phlegm, water), and melancholic (earth, black bile).

This old idea is the root of the idea of "temperament," which today the MBTI is supposed to indicate. The possible relationship to four generational archetypes is obvious. If we associate them as I have usually done with the elements, then prophets are coleric (easily angered), nomads are melancholic (brooding), civics are sanguine (optimistic), and artists/adaptives are phlegmatic (sluggish). These terms are often still used poetically and descriptively, whether the idea of the four humors is thought to be true or not.

However, though black bile is associated with earth, and phlegm with water, the descriptions of the temperament of melacholic fits better with artists (which are water, not earth) and phlegmatic with nomads (which are earth, not water). Needless to say, only the sanguine temperament (hopeful. optimistic) is complementary and positive; but it certainly fits with Strauss and Howe's description of the civic heroes.

Colors seem to have several different symbolic associations. Above I correlated red with fire and yellow with air.

Tarot cards are fascinating symbols. They are often linked to the kaballah's symbol of the tree of life. The cards numbered 1 to 10 that come in four suits (like a normal card deck) are associated with the 10 basic fruits on the tree of life, and the 22 trumps with the "pathways."

I won't go into that, but what I am interested in here are the "court cards." In a normal deck of cards, there are three kinds of court personalities, one for each of the four suits (king, queen and jack). The Tarot deck was originally the ancestor of today's playing deck, with a "trump suit" added in order to play a game similar to bridge (now they play without the extra suit, using a normal deck).

But the Tarot deck has FOUR court cards in four suits, not three.

Today in a tarot card reading, the court cards are used to signify the querent. In other words, they are symbols of types of people, and there are 16 of them. That rang a bell for me: there are 16 Jungian types in MBTI. So each court card could represent an MBTI type. Your MBTI type can be symbolized by a court card in the Tarot deck.

As I best understand the types, according to Myers and Briggs, there are four kinds of people: ST, NT, NF and SF. The central letters represent the functions, while the outer letters represent kinds of behavior and energy. So the central letters are most basic. I correlate them with elements, according to the descriptions given by Meyers and Briggs. NF are enthusiastic and inspirational (fire, hence the prophets). NT are ingenious and logical (air, civic heroes). ST are factual and pragmatic (earth, nomads). SF are feeling and people-oriented (water, artists).

According to interpreters of the Tarot, the elements correspond to the card suits. Fire is wands, staffs, or clubs; Earth is discs, coins, pentacles, diamonds; Air is swords or spades; Water is cups or hearts.

The outer letters can be grouped thusly: EJ, IJ, EP, IP.

The J types are the more masculine or left-brained, dominant types, while the P represents more passive, right-brained, feminine. The introverts make the decisions; the extraverts carry things out actively in the world.

The king is the master, the decision maker, so that correlates to IJ. The queen is the feminine counterpart, playing more of a counsellor or cultural role, and thus IP. Thus EJ is the knight, which is considered the most active. Sometimes the knight is called a prince. EP is the young page, more impulsive and exploring of life.

So the court cards which symbolize the MBTI types are, in my opinion:

King of Wands: INFJ (the oracle)
King of Swords: INTJ (the master-mind)
King of Cups: ISFJ (the conservator)
King of Coins: ISTJ (the investigator)

Queen of Wands: INFP (the healer)
Queen of Swords: INTP (the architect)
Queen of Cups: ISFP (the composer)
Queen of Coins: ISTP (the craftsman)

Knight of Wands: ENFJ (the teacher)
Knight of Swords: ENTJ (the field marshall)
Knight of Cups: ESFJ (the provider)
Knight of Coins: ESTJ (the administrator)

Page of Wands: ENFP (the enthusiast)
Page of Swords: ENTP (the maverick)
Page of Cups: ESFP (the performer)
Page of Coins: ESTP (the entrepreneur)

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

So the court cards which symbolize the MBTI types are, in my opinion:

King of Wands: INFJ (the oracle)
King of Swords: INTJ (the master-mind)
King of Cups: ISFJ (the conservator)
King of Coins: ISTJ (the investigator)

Queen of Wands: INFP (the healer)
Queen of Swords: INTP (the architect)
Queen of Cups: ISFP (the composer)
Queen of Coins: ISTP (the craftsman)

Knight of Wands: ENFJ (the teacher)
Knight of Swords: ENTJ (the field marshall)
Knight of Cups: ESFJ (the provider)
Knight of Coins: ESTJ (the administrator)

Page of Wands: ENFP (the enthusiast)
Page of Swords: ENTP (the maverick)
Page of Cups: ESFP (the performer)
Page of Coins: ESTP (the entrepreneur)

This is original and interesting, Eric, but I do not believe you get anywhere by assigning J and P to brain hemispheres. The letters simply indicate whether the Judging or Perceiving function is extraverted for any given type. The only functions which favor one sex over the other are T and F with 2/3 to 3/4 of men being Ts and 2/3 to 3/4 of women being Fs. Your kings and knights should all be Ts, both xxTJs and xxTPs. Similarly your queens and pages should all be Fs, both xxFJs and xxFPs. I won't even try to assign the types though.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

This is original and interesting, Eric, but I do not believe you get anywhere by assigning J and P to brain hemispheres. The letters simply indicate whether the Judging or Perceiving function is extraverted for any given type.

Ah, but it turns out according to this book by Lenore Thomson that for P's the right-brain functions are the ones that are extraverted and for J's it's the left-brain functions that are extraverted, giving a neat explanation of why the P/J distinction matches up with the characteristics commonly given to each side of the brain. Note that there's no suggestion that this has anything to do with handedness.

Originally Posted by jeffw

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

This is original and interesting, Eric, but I do not believe you get anywhere by assigning J and P to brain hemispheres. The letters simply indicate whether the Judging or Perceiving function is extraverted for any given type.

Ah, but it turns out according to this book by Lenore Thomson that for P's the right-brain functions are the ones that are extraverted and for J's it's the left-brain functions that are extraverted, giving a neat explanation of why the P/J distinction matches up with the characteristics commonly given to each side of the brain. Note that there's no suggestion that this has anything to do with handedness.

Whether that is true or not, P is still not synonymous with the right brain nor J with the left brain. Eric has always wished to make these terms mean more than they in fact do.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Originally Posted by jeffw

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

This is original and interesting, Eric, but I do not believe you get anywhere by assigning J and P to brain hemispheres. The letters simply indicate whether the Judging or Perceiving function is extraverted for any given type.

Ah, but it turns out according to this book by Lenore Thomson that for P's the right-brain functions are the ones that are extraverted and for J's it's the left-brain functions that are extraverted, giving a neat explanation of why the P/J distinction matches up with the characteristics commonly given to each side of the brain. Note that there's no suggestion that this has anything to do with handedness.

Whether that is true or not, P is still not synonymous with the right brain nor J with the left brain. Eric has always wished to make these terms mean more than they in fact do.

Good to see you posting Stonewall.

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

This is original and interesting, Eric, but I do not believe you get anywhere by assigning J and P to brain hemispheres. The letters simply indicate whether the Judging or Perceiving function is extraverted for any given type. The only functions which favor one sex over the other are T and F with 2/3 to 3/4 of men being Ts and 2/3 to 3/4 of women being Fs. Your kings and knights should all be Ts, both xxTJs and xxTPs. Similarly your queens and pages should all be Fs, both xxFJs and xxFPs. I won't even try to assign the types though.

Thanks for your feedback, illlustrious 66er.

I think P and J indicate as much as any other category, in their own right. When you take the test, the results indicate definite preferences for a judging or perceiving behavior and lifestyle, regardless of what functions might score highest on those other separate measures. I look at I and E the same way. I know the theory says that J and P indicate which functions are extraverted or not. It seems overly intricate to me. It might well be valid, but I think the obvious fact that the test elicits four separate polarities is basic.

It is true that T and F trend toward men and women respectively, but it's also true that many men are F and women T. But that would be another way to assign the types.

" according to this book by Lenore Thomson that for P's the right-brain functions are the ones that are extraverted and for J's it's the left-brain functions that are extraverted, giving a neat explanation of why the P/J distinction matches up with the characteristics commonly given to each side of the brain."

Very interesting.

It is clear that the two descriptions, J/P and left-brain/right-brain, match very well. Apparently Thomson's book supports this. Stonewall's respectable opinion that J/P are less important than the other polarities, notwithstanding!

Eric:

There are four functions total in this particular scheme: N, S, T, and F. Neither J nor P are functions. Ditto I and E. N, S, T, and F, being functions, can be assigned to specific areas of the brain (although there is disagreement as to placement). J, P, I, and E, being merely indices (not functions), cannot be assigned to specific areas of the brain. Thus it makes no sense to say "Right Brain = P" and "Left Brain = J." The Lenore Thomson quote does not even claim this. In fact, she appears to even differ from most as to placement of the four functions (the standard claim is that S and T are in the left brain while N and F are in the right brain).

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Eric:

There are four functions total in this particular scheme: N, S, T, and F. Neither J nor P are functions. Ditto I and E. N, S, T, and F, being functions, can be assigned to specific areas of the brain (although there is disagreement as to placement). J, P, I, and E, being merely indices (not functions), cannot be assigned to specific areas of the brain. Thus it makes no sense to say "Right Brain = P" and "Left Brain = J." The Lenore Thomson quote does not even claim this. In fact, she appears to even differ from most as to placement of the four functions (the standard claim is that S and T are in the left brain while N and F are in the right brain).

Actually, from my perspective, nothing can really be "assigned" to the brain. If functions are the core of our personality, and the "indices" are modes of behavior, neither may have anything to do with the brain. I agree with the essence of what your saying-- which I believe is that the functions are the more essential core of us. Whether or where these functions are assigned to the brain or not is another issue; philosophers and scientists probably differ on that.

But the descriptions of "right brain" traits match those of P, and "left-brained" with J. That is not an actual claim that perceptive or judging behavior and lifestyles occur in the brain. But there may be some connection. My contention is only what is obvious, that the two descriptions match. So I am really not actually claiming what is in the brain; only that there are certain traits called left and right brained, based apparently on some (though not conclusive) research, and that these traits also match P and J behavior.

But they also might match T and F functions too, so a great extent, as you have pointed out. The MBTI has four polarities, whereas left/right brain theory only takes account of one. But this polarity can be seen as a basic one throughout the history of thought and human behavior and in the universe.

The best way to group the types is to take the core functions first, as Myers Briggs do. I don't know if Jung did; he seemed to mention "introvert thinking" and "extravert feeling" and so on a lot more, as you do Mr. Dawg. But the MBTI test is what the types refer to; nothing else. That is the only basis for determining them. On the test there are four separate scales of opposing polarities; that is all. Myers-Briggs (like Strauss and Howe) definitely saw "four basic kinds of people," based on each having one or the other of the two functions predominant along those two polarities. They go around on a cross: NT, ST, SF, NF. So IMO we have to start there, not with the other scales. So, the symbols of King and Queen and so on, do not represent the core functions; the elements do. On a psychological level, the elements represent psychological traits. They are elemental, as it were. "King" "Knight" etc. represent what we do, and thus correlate with I/E and J/P, whereas the elements represent what we are, and so correlate with N/S and T/F. The word "feminine" in this case refers to a type of behavior, not a claim that more women are P; and "Queen" is a symbol for what we as IPs do in the world.

So sorry Seadog, you are a Queen!
:-)

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Originally Posted by Seadog '66

Eric:

There are four functions total in this particular scheme: N, S, T, and F. Neither J nor P are functions. Ditto I and E. N, S, T, and F, being functions, can be assigned to specific areas of the brain (although there is disagreement as to placement). J, P, I, and E, being merely indices (not functions), cannot be assigned to specific areas of the brain. Thus it makes no sense to say "Right Brain = P" and "Left Brain = J." The Lenore Thomson quote does not even claim this. In fact, she appears to even differ from most as to placement of the four functions (the standard claim is that S and T are in the left brain while N and F are in the right brain).

Actually, from my perspective, nothing can really be "assigned" to the brain. If functions are the core of our personality, and the "indices" are modes of behavior, neither may have anything to do with the brain. I agree with the essence of what your saying-- which I believe is that the functions are the more essential core of us. Whether or where these functions are assigned to the brain or not is another issue; philosophers and scientists probably differ on that.

But the descriptions of "right brain" traits match those of P, and "left-brained" with J. That is not an actual claim that perceptive or judging behavior and lifestyles occur in the brain. But there may be some connection. My contention is only what is obvious, that the two descriptions match. So I am really not actually claiming what is in the brain; only that there are certain traits called left and right brained, based apparently on some (though not conclusive) research, and that these traits also match P and J behavior.

But they also might match T and F functions too, so a great extent, as you have pointed out. The MBTI has four polarities, whereas left/right brain theory only takes account of one. But this polarity can be seen as a basic one throughout the history of thought and human behavior and in the universe.

The best way to group the types is to take the core functions first, as Myers Briggs do. I don't know if Jung did; he seemed to mention "introvert thinking" and "extravert feeling" and so on a lot more, as you do Mr. Dawg. But the MBTI test is what the types refer to; nothing else. That is the only basis for determining them. On the test there are four separate scales of opposing polarities; that is all. Myers-Briggs (like Strauss and Howe) definitely saw "four basic kinds of people," based on each having one or the other of the two functions predominant along those two polarities. They go around on a cross: NT, ST, SF, NF. So IMO we have to start there, not with the other scales. So, the symbols of King and Queen and so on, do not represent the core functions; the elements do. On a psychological level, the elements represent psychological traits. They are elemental, as it were. "King" "Knight" etc. represent what we do, and thus correlate with I/E and J/P, whereas the elements represent what we are, and so correlate with N/S and T/F. The word "feminine" in this case refers to a type of behavior, not a claim that more women are P; and "Queen" is a symbol for what we as IPs do in the world.

So sorry Seadog, you are a Queen!
:-)

Cough, cough! Oh my! :shock:

Actually, I suspect that INTP would best fit under Knight per your Tarot Card correlations. It's that ingrained code of honor thing, an artifact of Ti, I think. But I know nothing about the Cups, Wands, and whatever else you named, so I would not try to get any more specific with correlatiions.

I realize that you are using something else as a determinant (elements?), but I will stick with the T/F (and male/female) distinction. Kings and Knights ought to be Ts while Queens and Pages ought to be Fs. This is common sense really. To distinguish between the Kings and Knights, I would refer to "directing" and "reporting" (at least I think these are Keirsey's terms) types, with the directive Ts being Kings and the other Ts being Knights. Similarly, directive Fs would be Queens and the other Fs would be Pages. Perhaps Robert Reed can look up these types (I am not sure where to find the relevant books at the moment).

Did you ever decide on what type you are? Whatever it is, it ought to be a directive F type (judging by your ego/"Type Three/Sun strength"). That would make you the Queen, dude! :razz:

Well I was already, since I still think I am INTP. One enneagram test's results (and my astrology type system) notwithstanding. By my reckoning, that's a queen too. I think you can only base your opinion on what MBTI type you are, on the MBTI test. That makes sense now, doesn't it!

I am T over F by a point or two. But knowing myself, I know that thinking is still dominant in me. I guess in your point of view I am still a regular guy then. :-)

Perhaps you and Robert/Shemsu can flesh out which MBTI types are the directing and reporting types, as I have never heard of those before.

I guess if you are going to take the King and Queen symbols literally, as representing men and women, then T's have to be male and F's female. Your right, I was using elements to represent the functions. The elements in turn are definitely linked to the suits by Tarot interpreters. You know the more common name for the suits; the Tarot suits are just different versions of them (cups, swords, wands, coins; for hearts, spades, clubs and diamonds respectively). Using that system forces me to use Kings and Queens etc. for E/I/J/P.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well I was already, since I still think I am INTP. One enneagram test's results (and my astrology type system) notwithstanding. By my reckoning, that's a queen too. I think you can only base your opinion on what MBTI type you are, on the MBTI test. That makes sense now, doesn't it!

Actually, I find that the test is only the starting point as it seems to be rather inaccurate, from all the reports of people's types changing each time they take it. To really nail it down you have to look at the descriptions of each letter and figure out what is the best match for you and then read over the type descriptions. It can take quite a bit of reflection.

For example, I had trouble nailing down if I was J or P, but the description for INTJ just didn't fit. I think some of the questions pointed to a need for organizing my thoughts, which could indicate J, but in my case indicated Extroverted Intuition's penchant for organizing experience into patterns.

There are probably peculiarities with some of the other types as well that throw off the test.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I am T over F by a point or two. But knowing myself, I know that thinking is still dominant in me. I guess in your point of view I am still a regular guy then. :-)

You're oversimplifying what T and F mean. Fi and Fe are perfectly rational functions, it's just that they use personal relations as the basis for making decisions instead of logical relations. A book I have describes it as a T way of organizing a list of names would be in alphabetical order, while the F way would be who they are in relationship to you, Family, Friends, Business, etc. Each way is useful in different circumstances.

So to go back to what you said, F doesn't mean that you don't (predominantly) think, you just think about different things.

Originally Posted by jeffw

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Well I was already, since I still think I am INTP. One enneagram test's results (and my astrology type system) notwithstanding. By my reckoning, that's a queen too. I think you can only base your opinion on what MBTI type you are, on the MBTI test. That makes sense now, doesn't it!

Actually, I find that the test is only the starting point as it seems to be rather inaccurate, from all the reports of people's types changing each time they take it. To really nail it down you have to look at the descriptions of each letter and figure out what is the best match for you and then read over the type descriptions. It can take quite a bit of reflection.

For example, I had trouble nailing down if I was J or P, but the description for INTJ just didn't fit. I think some of the questions pointed to a need for organizing my thoughts, which could indicate J, but in my case indicated Extroverted Intuition's penchant for organizing experience into patterns.

There are probably peculiarities with some of the other types as well that throw off the test.

That's true; no test can be perfect. I wonder if there is any other basis for claiming to be a particular type, though, since to be an MBTI type really means nothing other than your score on the MBTI test. If you have derived other means for determining type, then that is not MBTI. The questions might be re-written by someone to make them clearer. This revision might be better, and might not be. Would it really be MBTI, then?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I am T over F by a point or two. But knowing myself, I know that thinking is still dominant in me. I guess in your point of view I am still a regular guy then. :-)

You're oversimplifying what T and F mean. Fi and Fe are perfectly rational functions, it's just that they use personal relations as the basis for making decisions instead of logical relations. A book I have describes it as a T way of organizing a list of names would be in alphabetical order, while the F way would be who they are in relationship to you, Family, Friends, Business, etc. Each way is useful in different circumstances.

So to go back to what you said, F doesn't mean that you don't (predominantly) think, you just think about different things.

Well, I still think (!), thinking is predominant in me; I would probably organize a list alphabetically. By a very narrow margin, I tend to be more impersonal in how I look at things. I tend to be bored by personal stories too, and they mean a lot less to me in understanding things than overall stats and general views of things. I had a run-in recently here with Witchiepoo over this.

But feeling is quite opposite to thinking; a feeling-predominant person would probably not make any list at all to determine a decision. (S)he would know "by feeling" which relationship is most valuable, and what decision to make regarding it. If F is "rational," it is only because it is another way to make decisions. It is not turning things over in one's mind and thinking about them. F is not thinking about different things than T; it is making decisions by a different means than T.

Personally, I still use thinking a lot more, even if I value my feelings quite a bit. Perhaps I look at feeling as closer to my core; fundamentally more important to my decisions. But most of the time, I think about them, and my feelings are somewhat repressed, even if I wish that weren't so. And BTW, I just love making lists! I have always been very much a "designer" too; and later a philosopher. So I fit INTP pretty well, even if I am not the complete nerd type that goes to Star Trek conventions and such; am not a computerphile, etc.

I don't think the fact that our test results can change, makes them inaccurate. We do change and fluctuate in our temperament. Culture and lifestyle changes can influence us. We might be developing our less dominant functions in order to be more balanced and integrated as people; let us hope so. I certainly don't buy the idea that our type is hard-wired in our genes. If that were so, why are parents and children of such different types? I am almost opposite to my Mom's apparent strong ESTJ type; sharing only my tenuous "T" with her. And my Dad was almost certainly ISTJ. I think I have always been INTP, although my F function got stronger perhaps during the "Awakening."

I admit I don't have stats about parents and children related to types; if there are any. So am I not being a good "T" here? Probably not for the first time ;-) Just ask Sean.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's true; no test can be perfect. I wonder if there is any other basis for claiming to be a particular type, though, since to be an MBTI type really means nothing other than your score on the MBTI test. If you have derived other means for determining type, then that is not MBTI. The questions might be re-written by someone to make them clearer. This revision might be better, and might not be. Would it really be MBTI, then?

Where did you get this idea? The Jungian types came first, which Myers and Briggs elaborated on and then they developed a test. The test is supposed to make it easier to determine your type, but it in no way defines the types.

Originally Posted by jeffw

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's true; no test can be perfect. I wonder if there is any other basis for claiming to be a particular type, though, since to be an MBTI type really means nothing other than your score on the MBTI test. If you have derived other means for determining type, then that is not MBTI. The questions might be re-written by someone to make them clearer. This revision might be better, and might not be. Would it really be MBTI, then?

Where did you get this idea? The Jungian types came first, which Myers and Briggs elaborated on and then they developed a test. The test is supposed to make it easier to determine your type, but it in no way defines the types.

Well I guess if you call them Jungian types, and not MBTI types, that makes sense.

INTP. 1980.

Is anyone keeping an aggregate list of Names to Types? Even a count would be nice, though INTP seems to be dramatically over represented, it would help to know that we're not alone here.

Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon

Is anyone keeping an aggregate list of Names to Types? Even a count would be nice, though INTP seems to be dramatically over represented, it would help to know that we're not alone here.

Here's an aggregate from two personality threads: this one and the other, more recent one in the society forum I think. Sorted by birth year and categorized by decade. Those whose birthyears I forgot are on the bottom, so if anyone knows, please let me know so I can put them in the right spot. Also, if anyone's MBTI is not exactly what I gathered from thread combing, please let me know about that too so I can change it.

1931 Barbara INFJ
1939 Idiot Girl INTP
1939 Croakmore INTJ/INTP

1942 Dave Krein ENTJ
1947 Marx & Lennon I/ENTP
1949 Virgil K. Saari INTP
1949 Eric the Green INTP

1950 cbailey ISTJ
1954 Liz '54 ISTJ/ENTJ
1954 Bob Butler '54 INTP
1956 Tim Walker INFJ
1956 The Wonkette ISTJ
1956 wesfolk ISTJ
1956 Brian Rush INTJ
1958 Chicken Little INFJ
1958 Sabinus Invictus ISFJ
1959 Vince Lamb '59 ENTJ
1959 Mike Alexander '59 I/ENTJ
1959 enjolras INTJ
1959 Roadbldr '59 INTJ

1960 richt INTJ/INFJ
1961 Kiff 1961 ISTJ
1961 jeffw INTP
1962 allybear '62 ESFJ
1963 Sherry63 INFJ
1963 scott 63 ENTP
1964 Donna Sherman ENTP
1966 Seadog '66 INTP
1967 Neisha '67 INFJ
1968 angeli ENFP
1968 Max ENFP
1968 Peter Gibbons ENFP/ENTJ
1969 SMA I/ENTJ

1971 Ricercar71 INFP
1971 Dave'71 INTJ
1971 Kenkajin INTP
1972 Anne '72 INFJ
1973 dbookwoym INFP
1973 Mitch INFP
1974 Jessie74 ISFP
1976 Wyn76 ENFP
1977 Justin '77 ISTP/ENTP

1980 Arkham '80 INTP
1981 eekelsey ENTP
1982 Chris Lloyd '82 INTP
1982 Shemsu Heru INTP
1982 anne579 I/ENTJ
1982 esfp_01simpsonsrule ESFP
1983 Tristan Jones INTJ
1984 Craig '84 ESTP
1984 mmailliw8419 ENTJ
1985 Andy '85 ISTP
1985 Katie '85 ENFP
1986 AlexMnWi ISTJ

1991 blueman18 INFP

artist_nf I/ENFJ
728huey ESTP
Straha ENTP
Milo INFP
Boean ENTP

If there is anything that needs changing, again, let me know. Especially putting the birthyears of those I don't remember when they were born.

And someone else can do the counting.

Andy:

"Chicken Little" and "Heliotrope" are also Susan Brombacher.

"Number Two" is mailliw8419.

"Roadbuilder" and Kevin Parker are the same person.

"blueman18" is a '91 cohort (!)

Brian Rush is a '56 cohort

Sabinus Invictus is a '58 cohort

Your decades begin and end a year early (unless you are using the Progressive System with Year Zero).

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

Your decades begin and end a year early (unless you are using the Progressive System with Year Zero).

Actually, I am not aware of the Progressive System and I also don't find year 0 to make sense. I find my arrangement more logical to me, at least, including my preference for the millenium to start in 2000 and not 2001. I just assume the switch from BCE to CE skips over the 0 and the first decade of the 1st millenium has only 9 years, then the second decade, the 10s do start on year 10 and not year 11 and goes to 19, and so forth.

Of course, in the context of this forum, I could always group them by generational cohorts.

Originally Posted by Andy '85

Of course, in the context of this forum, I could always group them by generational cohorts, heck, I might just might do that.

What about the Cuspers? :wink: