Originally Posted by Jesse Manoogian

Alex MnWi was born in 1987, not 1986.

Chris Loyd's name has one L.

Susan Brombacher/Chicken Little is an INFP. She said, "I hate being an INFP in an ESTJ world":
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...6363#post16363

Has anyone here heard from Susan? I miss her.

Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59

Has anyone here heard from Susan? I miss her.

I definitely haven't. Anyone still have her email address?

Originally Posted by Finch

Yes, the possibility of subjective pigeonholing is real -- in fact, it's a virtual certainty in a 1T ("Organization Man" redux.) When we Xers are in charge of "Human Resources" (or whatever they decide to call it in 20 years), we'll find nothing at all strange in reducing human behavior to a series of numbers. (To say nothing of the Singularity, wherein human behavior really is a series of numbers.)

The answer to this is easy. "Human Resources" should be remapped to "Employee Affairs". As for all the lame assed "mission statements", these should all be remapped to "The missions of company XYZ is to make money and pay dividends to our shareholders". Finally as a productivity booster, replace all touchy feely elevator music with bad jams by Saxon, Helix, Jimi Hendix, Nirvana, and AC/DC, etc.. The bad jams should have a knock on effect of deterring folks from getting hangovers.

Originally Posted by Croakmore

If I worked for a corporation that evaluated my abilities from a four-letter MBTI test result I would quit ASAP if not sooner.

So would I.

I score as an ISTJ, but I work hard to train the other spheres, because there are times when it's helpful to come out of a social shell, to let those creative juices flow, to tune into emotions, and to look at the forest instead of the trees. Life is about utilizing your strengths and improving your weaknesses. That's why I read so much philosophy and religion these days. That's why I volunteer for stuff more often. That's why I joined a women's fellowship and book study at my church. Personality tests help you to do what my philosophical ancestor commanded: know thyself.

Of course there's the potential for a lot of navel-gazing when you do too much of it, but a lack of self-insight is just as dangerous.

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

So would I.

I score as an ISTJ, but I work hard to train the other spheres, because there are times when it's helpful to come out of a social shell, to let those creative juices flow, to tune into emotions, and to look at the forest instead of the trees. Life is about utilizing your strengths and improving your weaknesses. That's why I read so much philosophy and religion these days. That's why I volunteer for stuff more often. That's why I joined a women's fellowship and book study at my church. Personality tests help you to do what my philosophical ancestor commanded: know thyself.

Of course there's the potential for a lot of navel-gazing when you do too much of it, but a lack of self-insight is just as dangerous.

I, too, believe one should walk many paths to see the forest for all its splendor. Maybe you are actively ascending Maslow's need hierarchy to gain self-actualization, which perhaps involves a kind of spiritual evolution, and that would seem to me to be graceful in the eyes of the Lord, if there is one. So I admire your quest, and your community spirit. I may need you to bring me a sack of groceries some day.

Thanks, Croak.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

The answer to this is easy. "Human Resources" should be remapped to "Employee Affairs". As for all the lame assed "mission statements", these should all be remapped to "The missions of company XYZ is to make money and pay dividends to our shareholders". Finally as a productivity booster, replace all touchy feely elevator music with bad jams by Saxon, Helix, Jimi Hendix, Nirvana, and AC/DC, etc.. The bad jams should have a knock on effect of deterring folks from getting hangovers.

That's the mission of all companies and is a very good statement for conglomerates. However, more companies should have a specific, concrete statement like "Our job" (NOT 'mission' - they are neither evangelists nor generals) is to sell good quality organic food to as many people as we can." (Whole Foods or Wild Oats.) "Our job is to provide our customers with the lowest priced merchandise we can." (Walmart.) "Our job is to sell soda pop."

The 'mission' is the same everywhere. To make as much money as you can without getting thrown in jail in the process.

Originally Posted by herbal tee

The 'mission' is the same everywhere. To make as much money as you can without getting thrown in jail in the process.

Well, it does help to be a bit more specific, otherwise you have the Underpants Gnomes problem*.

----

*The reference is to a 1998 South Park episode featuring underground gnomes with the following business plan [obviously a parody of the dot-coms of the day]:

1. Collect underpants
2. ???
3. Profit!

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

That's the mission of all companies and is a very good statement for conglomerates. However, more companies should have a specific, concrete statement like "Our job" (NOT 'mission' - they are neither evangelists nor generals) is to sell good quality organic food to as many people as we can." (Whole Foods or Wild Oats.) "Our job is to provide our customers with the lowest priced merchandise we can." (Walmart.) "Our job is to sell soda pop."

I think you bring up a very good point there. We need to remove ambiguity.

1. There are "business plans", which of course should be quite detailed and describe exactly how the business will operate. From this one would get
a. We'll obtain financing by having a line of credit or just use cashflow to expand/replace things.
b. How a company interacts with other economic actors. This is where you mention "Our job is to <insert action here>". It would also incluse things like how to be set up for tax purposes, etc.
c. Which technologies will be used. Ie. which computers, processes, etc.
d. Contigency planning. If X happens then we need to ensure we do Y.

I'll use your examples to show some lame "mission statements.

First, let's examine Walmart.
Here's an utterly worthless web page we'll use as an example.
http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMSto...gate.do?catg=5

The only thing of interest is that Walmart and I share the same birthyear, which of course sucks.

Yet another worthlesss web page.
http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMSto...te.do?catg=216

I think we all know that folks who actually do work for Walmart aren't going to be out there planting stuff like the picture. They don't make enough money to have that sort of free time.

http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMSto...te.do?catg=218
"Associates" accoriding to this jewel make $10.00 / hour. Well OK, but what about things like health insurance and sick leave ? Note the spin here, it makes me very dizzy. Just call them "employees" and be done with it.

I'll save the "best" for last on Walmart. This wins my 2006 lame webpage of the year award.

http://walmartstores.com/GlobalWMSto...te.do?catg=259

The Walmart Cheer? WTH?????? Now this is stupid. I guess if I had to work for Walmart, I could get a prescription for Valium or something. That way I wouldn't care if I had to actually do this on the job.

I think Walmart's business model in summary form is to use cheap inputs
Labor + merchandise imported from cheap places like China, and sell them here. I think they also have some sort of employee brainwashing plan.
Call them "associates" and have them do "teambuilding". From this I get the proper mission statement or slogan for Walmart.

"Everyday low prices and wages".

---------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, let's go visit Whole Food Market.
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/company/index.html

This is a business plan. It states how they conduct business and interact with other economic actors. The only complaint I have here is that has a bit too much hyperbole, but other than that, it expresses how the company operates.

http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com//issues/index.html

OK, well, I consider this set of web pages to be a waste of time and money. It's also quite redundant, since most of the stuff here is already stated in the busness plan. I see no need to waste bandwidth with any of this. With that said, I'd prefer working here than with Walmart.

Mission statement for Whole Food Market is

"We believe in a virtuous circle entwining the food chain, human beings and Mother Earth: each is reliant upon the others through a beautiful and delicate symbiosis."

A bit verbose, so let's clean it up.

Whole Food Market, where you can shop for food that's in sync with nature's food cycle."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finally a trip to Wild Oats

http://www.wildoats.com/app/cda/cda.php?pt=Corporate

Not too bad. They did manage to mess up a tad with this.

http://www.wildoats.com/u/about100107/

"At Wild Oats, we sell food that remembers its roots.™"

Otherwise, they get first place for lack of being snooty and for actually providing useful information on their website on how to cook stuff, etc.

I never used to be really sure what my MBTI type was, but now that I've been in college and on my own for a bit, I'm starting to understand myself a bit more, and I can say that yes, I am definitely an ISTJ (although I don't meet all the characteristics), and yes, I was born in 1987.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

What is your MBTI personality type? And birth year?

ENFP (1974) wow pretty accurate!

Originally Posted by Croakmore

I would agree that most MBTI testing questionnaires, such as this one, are fun to take. But so are most carnival rides. All I’m asking is where does it take you? You may as well plot an astrological chart or go see the gypsy lady with her Tarot cards. These are parlor games, psychologically meaningless, and possibly even harmful to those who are easily beguiled by symbolic profiling. Take a close look at any MBTI test for its preponderance of ambiguity. You could start by asking why “Intuition” stands opposite to “Sensation” and not opposite to “Thinking,” which itself stands opposite to “Feeling.” What? Does this mean that Intuition and Feeling are measurably different from each other? If so, how does the MBTI measure that difference? If I have a "hunch" do I have an intuition or a feeling? There are just too many such ambiguities in the MBTI, and its scientific value approaches zero, IMO.

Let me offer an example of how silly these “personality” tests can be. Take Croakmore’s Neck-Color Indicator test:

1. Do you smoke tobacco? S (smoker) or N (non-smoker)

2. Do you have a tattoo? T (tattoo) or P (plain)

3. Do you support NASCAR? Z (zoom) or Q (quiet)

4. Do you believe in God? B (Believer) or A (Atheist)

Neck-color range for responses: STZB = Red Neck…(insert color range here)… NPQA = Blue Neck.

I happen to be a cool NPQA. What are you? And what does it mean? Not much more than the MBTI, IMHO.

..a funky STZB!!! This means if we were stuck at a dinner table, it'd be one Helluv a Meal! ROLMAO

I retook Eric's test and I got 15R and 74M. Looks like I'm still the most philosophically materialist person here.

Originally Posted by jeffw

Well this whole business of determining someone else's type doesn't come easily to me, perhaps because Fe is the least developed function in an INTP.

While we're waiting for Mr. Reed, I found some interesting tidbits about the 8 Jungian functions in a book by Lenore Thomson called "Personality Type: An Owner's Manual".

She says there has been research done using PET scanning that locates the functions in the brain thusly:

Left Brain.....Right Brain
Te................Ne
Fe................Se

Si.................Fi
Ni.................Ti

The left brain is described as verbal, linear, and rational while the right brain is visual, tactile, physical, and holistic. Matching this up with the function locations you will see that the judging functions are extraverted on the left side while the perceiving functions are extraverted on the right. And given the way that J and P are defined, this explains why the J and P type descriptions are so similar to the left and right brain attributes.

This gives rise to these, hopefully better, descriptions of the 8 functions:

Te - left brain - verbal analysis and abstract logic
Ti - right brain - visual, tactile, and spatial logic
Fe - left brain - recognizes signs of relationships and draws rational conclusions about behavior
Fi - right brain - subjective ideas about human values
Se - right brain - physicality and material investment
Si - left brain - acquires facts and impressions (also keeps us in touch with what matters to us)
Ne - right brain - holistic, what we usually think of as intuitive
Ni - left brain - moves beyond boundaries of language (not really sure what that means)

This is interesting, one would think that us INTPs would be left-brain dominant, but according to what you posted the INTP main axis (Ti and Ne) are right-brain things.

Originally Posted by Odin

This is interesting, one would think that us INTPs would be left-brain dominant, but according to what you posted the INTP main axis (Ti and Ne) are right-brain things.

Reading Keirsey, one would think so. Ti and Ne being right instead of left brained definitely makes sense, given that P types tend to be divergent in their thinking while J types are convergent. Given my generations/mbti personality, this means that first wave Idealists (NFJ) are left-brained convergent thinkers, last wavers (NFP) are right-brained divergent thinkers, and that first wave Civics (NTP) are right-brained divergent thinkers, while the last wavers are left-brained convergent thinkers. Reactives are right-brained, while Adaptives are left-brained.

Not sure if this has already been posted, but this site I found describes the 8 Jungian functions.

http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/jft.htm

The Eight Functions - the following descriptions are from Dynamics of Personality Type by Linda V. Berens - www.tri-network.com



Sensing is a process of becoming aware of sensory information and often involves responding to that sensory information without any judgment or evaluation of it. Sensory information is concrete and tangible in nature. In the Sensing process, the focus is on the actual experience, the facts and the data. As an active perceptual process, it is more than stimulation of the five senses. It is the registration of that stimulation and actively being drawn outward to the concrete realities of a situation or inward\ to recollections of familiar experiences.

Extraverted Sensing - Experiencing and noticing the physical world, scanning for visible reactions and relevant data.You are one with the experience. There is no "naming" or describing - just pure, vivid experience. The whole scene comes into your awareness almost at once. You may be drawn to experience more and more, seeking any variation that will intensely excite the senses. Writing that is richly descriptive can also evoke extraverted Sensing as can other mental stimulation. The process is momentary and tied to the events of the iminediate situation. It is used in the here and now and helps us know what is really there in the physical world and to adapt to it. Extraverted Sensing occurs when we scan for information that is relevant to our interests, then we mentally register data and facts such as baseball statistics, the locations of all the restaurants in town, or the names of all the actors in the popular television shows. There can be an active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Associated behaviors include eating a whole box of chocolates for the variety of tastes; playing an instrument for hours with pure enjoyment, not for practice; voracious reading or continual asking of questions to get specifics.

Introverted Sensing - Recalling past experiences, remembering detailed data and what it is linked to. Introverted Sensing often involves storing data and information, then comparing and contrasting the current stimulation with similar ones. The immediate experience or words are instantly linked with the prior experiences and one registers that there is a similarity or a difference - for example, noticing that some food doesn't taste the same and is saltier than it usually is. Introverted Sensing is also operating when you see someone who reminds you of someone else. Sometimes the feeling-tone associated with the recalled image comes into your awareness along with the information itself. Then the image can be so strong, your body responds as if reliving the experience. This could be seen as a source of feelings of nostalgia or longing for the way things were. In one instance, a young couple living in Europe spent their weekends trying out restaurants looking for food that tasted like American food.


Intuiting is a process of becoming aware of abstract information, like symbols, conceptual patterns, and meanings. It is an intangible "knowing" of what something means, how it relates to something else, or what might happen. Some call this the "sixth" sense. Sometimes this process is by an external event, or sometimes this abstract information just seems to present itself to our awareness.

Extraverted iNtuition - Inferring relationships, noticing threads of meaning, and scanning for what could be. Extraverted iNtuiting involves seeing things "as if" with various possible ways of representing reality. Using this process, we can hold many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our minds at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like weaving themes and "threads" together. We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction with a previous one. Thus there is often an emergent quality to using this process. A strategy or concept emerges based on the here-and-now interactions, not appearing as a whole beforehand. Extraverted iNtuiting involves realizing that there is always another view. An example is when you listen to one friend tell about an argument and understand perfectly and then listen to another friend tell a contradictory story and understand that view also. Then you wonder what the real story is because there are always so many different possible meanings.

Introverted iNtuition - Foreseeing implications, conceptualizing, and having images of the future or profound meaning. Introverted iNtuiting often involves a sense of what will be. The details might be a little fuzzy, but when you tune in to this process, there is some sense of how things will be. Using this process, we often are able to get pictures about the future or at least a sense of what will happen before we have any data. Sometimes it is an awareness of what is happening in another location and we have no sensory data to go on. Other times introverted iNtuiting operates when we conceptualize and get a sense of a whole plan, pattern, theory, or explanation. These are the kinds of images that come to us in the shower, in meditative states, or in dreams and help us deeply understand something. Sometimes they are profoundly symbolic and even universally so. In using this process, we tune into a likely future or something universal. This infonnation can then be used to decide what to do next, what to plan for. Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes a problem or situation to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when a completely new, un-imagined realization comes to us. There is a disengagement from interactions in the room, followed by a sudden "aha!" or "that's it!" kind of experience. These kinds of experiences are often seen as if they are "psychic" in nature. The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness to them and an imperative quality that seems to demand action.

....................

Thinking is a process of evaluating and making judgements based on objective criteria. Using this process, we detach ourselves from our values and seek to make decisions based on principles. Activities like discriminating according to a set of criteria or objectively defined standards, analysis according to a set of principles, logic, and cause-effect reasoning are all examples of using the cognitive process of Thinking.

Extraverted Thinking - Organizing, segmenting, sorting, and applying logic and criteria. Contingency plaiming, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. One woman labeled the shoeboxes for her 100 pairs of shoes for color, height, style, and comfort. Sometimes the organizing of extraverted Thinking is more abstract, like a logical argument that is made to "rearrange" someone else's thinking process! An example is when we point out logical consequences and say, "If your do this, then that will happen." In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else's logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

Introverted Thinking - Analyzing, categorizing, and figuring out how something works. Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, there is a search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.


Feeling is a process of making evaluations based on what is important, where personal, interpersonal, or universal values serve as guideposts. Using the cognitive process of Feeling, situations and information are assessed subjectively. The impact on people, circumstances, appropriateness, harmony, likes, and dislikes are all considered in making Feeling judgments. Weighing different values, considering ethical and moral issues, attending to personal and relationship goals, and having a belief in something all involve this process.

Extraverted Feeling - Considering others and responding to them. The extraverted Feeling process is used in relation to particular people and situations and so has a more here-and-now quality than a universal, future, or past quality. When particular people are out of our presence or awareness, we can then adjust to new people or situations. This process helps us "grease the wheels" of social interaction. Often, the process of extraverted Feeling seems to involve a desire to connect with (or disconnect from) others and is often evidenced by expressions of warmth (or displeasure) and self-disclosure. The "social graces" such as being polite, being nice, being friendly, being considerate, and being appropriate often revolve around the process of extraverted Feeling. Associated behaviors might include remembering birthdays, finding just the right card for a person and selecting a gift based on what a person likes. Keeping in touch, laughing at jokes when others laugh, and trying to get people to act kindly to each other also involve extraverted Feeling. Using this process, we respond according to expressed or even unexpressed wants and needs of others. We may ask people what they want or need or self-disclose to prompt them to talk more about themselves. This often sparks conversation and lets us know more about them so we can better adjust our behavior to them.

Introverted Feeling - Evaluating importance and maintaining congruence. It is often hard to put words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images and feeling-tones more than words. As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued and wanted. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, "sometimes, some things just have to be said." On the other hand, most of the time this process works "in private" and is seldom expressed directly. Actions often speak louder than words. This process helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. It is like having an internal sense of the "essence" of a person or a project, and reading another person or action or project with fine distinctions among feeling-tones. When the other person's values and beliefs are congruent with our own, we are inclined to feel kinship with them and want to connect with them.





Which function seems to fit you best? After you have identified it, it is time to learn your 2nd (or auxillary) function. This function often supports the first one. However, you cannot pick any function necessarily...if your 1st function was Extraverted, then the 2nd needs to be Introverted. As well, if your 1st function was a perceiving function (Sensing or iNtuition), then your 2nd function must be a judgement function (Thinking or Feeling). This leaves you with two choices. Here is a list that explains what your 2nd function must be.


If your 1st function is...

Extraverted Sensing, then your 2nd function must be Introverted Thinking or Introverted Feeling.
Introverted Sensing, then your 2nd function must be Extraverted Thinking or Extraverted Feeling.
Extraverted iNtuition, then your 2nd function must be Introverted Thinking or Introverted Feeling.
Introverted iNtuition, then your 2nd function must be Extraverted Thinking or Extraverted Feeling.
Extraverted Thinking, then your 2nd function must be Introverted Sensing or Introverted iNtuition.
Introverted Thinking, then your 2nd function must be Extraverted Sensing or Extraverted iNtuition.
Extraverted Feeling, then your 2nd function must be Introverted Sensing or Introverted iNtuition.
Introverted Feeling, then your 2nd function must be Extraverted Sensing or Extraverted iNtuition.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

Reading Keirsey, one would think so. Ti and Ne being right instead of left brained definitely makes sense, given that P types tend to be divergent in their thinking while J types are convergent.

It would explain my like of holistic hypotheses, and thus being drawn to Biology, History, Anthropology, etc. instead of more "reductionist-oriented" fields like Physics, Astronomy, Economics, etc.

LOL, this is funny!!!

http://soli.inav.net/~catalyst/Humor/mbtihaha.htm

MBTI Type Descriptions (Funny)

ENFJ: "Busybody"
Life's backseat drivers. They seem to know just what's wrong with everybody else's life and have a plan to fix it.

INFJ: "Messiah"
Characterized by the burning desire to change the world, which desperately needs everyone to be NF.

ENFP: "Muckraker"
Creator of hype, distortion, and the perversion of media of information to be wallows of mindless emotionalism.

INFP: "Fanatic"
Always searching for an Answer with a capital A. Unlike the INFJ, they are usually openminded enough to realize the current one isn't good enough after a few years.

ENTJ: "Tyrant"
Knows better than everyone how things should be done and works tirelessly to obtain the power to make it happen that way.

INTJ: "Crackpot"
All facts which don't fit their theories are just wrong. The more all-encompassing and less applicable to reality the theories, the better.

ENTP: "Frankenstein"
The salvation of the world is to be found in this new nanotronic frannistan, of which he just happens to have an almost-working model...

INTP: "Nerd"
What? you mean people actually talk to each other using mouths and ears instead of keyboards????

ESTJ: "Stuffed Shirt"
No imagination, no flexibility, no common sense, no capacity for tolerance of others with different priorities.

ISTJ: "Bean Counter"
Like the ESTJ but with less vision.

ESFJ: "Gossip"
Like the Busybody, but characterized by the urge to backstab instead of trying to help.

ISFJ: "Sidekick"
Doesn't need much meaning in life, just a person (or baby or pet or car) to spend all their time ministering to.

ESTP: "Beer Drinker"
Loud, crude, plays team sports, kisses and tells. These are the people beer commercials are made for.

ESFP: "Clown"
Always the class troublemaker, they have no respect for anybody or anything. Good at snide wisecracks.

ISTP: "Assasin"
Hates people, and is good at killing them. Young ISTP's are good at killing pictures of people in video games.

ISFP: "Snob"
Revels in the elaborate sensations of wine and paintings and music that are completely indistinguishable to ordinary people. Likes flowers.

http://www.geocities.com/player2000g..._functions.htm

This site is really good!

This is how I interpret history and mbti. Note that the dominant personality of the cohorts remain through life.

First Wave Adaptives tend to be STJs. For this cycle, this means that the period from 1946 - 1955 was an STJ period. They tend to be administrators of society. With new institutions forged in the Crisis, the Adaptive accepts the outcome of the Crisis instead of working to change society (like their older NT siblings) The top priority is to maintain stability. Being kids during the turbulent Crisis, these Adaptives will tend to maintain stability at all costs. With the T archetypes in total control - with 5 T types and 1 F type (the SFP Reactives entering the second tier of elderhood) - the culture is at its peak sterility and spiritualism at a minimum.

Second Wave Adaptives tend to be SFJs, and they came of age last from about 1955 - 1963. Because this is an F type in a world of T types, this tends to be the subversive subtype. Their concern is not politics, economics, or science. Rather, they are concerned with religion, culture, and morals. It is no coincidence that the years of their coming of age coincided roughly with the rise of the modern (read: post-Crisis) Civil Rights Movement. They are also concerned with stability, but they do it through the culture and spirituality. Their aim is to make sure that everyone gets along, and that people feel like they belong to society. The movements they started looked like carbon copies of the 1930s-era Crisis movements. The Civil Rights Movement was basically an extension of the New Deal across race, and even the Port Huron Statement seemed more like a modernized 1930s text.

First Wave Idealists are NFJ, as a whole, and came of age from about 1963 - 1973. Unlike the Adaptives, they are not as concerned with social stability. Like NFJs, these Idealists work to fit the individual with the new morality and culture. This includes the anti-war movement, the Black Power Movement, and other 1960s movements. These types also tend to be more authoritarian than their second wave siblings, imposing their brand of morality on people of all ages.

The Second Wave Idealists are NFP, and came of age from 1973 to about 1982. Instead of fitting the individual with the new values regime, the NFP works to adapt the values regime to the individual. These types are not as likely to impose their morality on others. This manifests in very creative artistic works and new spiritualism. The NFP era was the disco era, and also the period when perhaps the most inwardly spiritual music was made. This was also the era of the Human Potential Movement, of New Age spirituality, and of resurgent evangelism focused on a "personal god".

First Wave Reactives are SFP, and came of age from 1982 - 1994. Unlike the Idealists, the Reactives are not interested in exploring new spiritual and cultural frontiers, but rather in expanding what was created by their older siblings. Unlike the Idealists, who tend to be other-worldly, the Reactives are grounded in the real world. And their art reflects it. The 1980s were very rich artistically, with many classic hits that rival their older siblings. This was also a very culturally focused period. Like all Reactives, these types have a keen business sense, as was witnessed in the rise of corporatism through the 1980s.

Last Wave Reactives are STP, coming of age from 1994 - 2004. At this time, there are 5 F types and 1 T type. So these are the new subversives. They are less interested in the culture, and more interested in economics, politics, rationalism, and technology. Few people will say that the era had really good artistic works compared to prior eras. But the economic, technological, and scientific production was much better than those eras. This was the period of the rise of technology (which parallels the rise of technology in the 1920s and the rise of industrialism in the 1850s), and also of an economic boom. They are grounded in the real world. They have to constantly fight against the irrationalism of their elders, and work to create a society that is workable.

First Wave Civics are NTPs, coming of age now, and last time from about 1929 - 1938. Where the Reactives were grounded in "reality", the Civics fight reality, leading to the rise of an increasingly escapist and imaginary culture (think Disney and science fiction). These types are interested in structural potential. They are the types to imagine a new social structure to solve real or perceived problems. These Civics tend to be utopians, and think nothing of dismantling the old regime, and replacing it. Because of their P nature, this is an era of live experimentation, whether the experiment started in the 1770s or FDR's experimentation. They are wholistic rationalist thinkers, and build their new society around whatever paradigm fits their style of rationality.

Second Wave Civics are the NTJs, and came of age last from 1938 - 1946. The culture is less escapist than before. If the first wavers were concerned with structure and organization, these last wavers are concerned with order. They are the masters of planning (WWII). They are also the most determined of all the types, and are very good at science and technology. Their rationalism is not as confined to an imaginary world, as they project it much more on the outer world. They work towards a distant goal, and they pursue the goal single-mindedly. They are not as concerned with structural potential as they are with dreaming up new forms of order to provide maximum social efficiency. These types run organizations better than any other type. They will use ideas indiscriminately if it helps them towards their goals.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

This is how I interpret history and mbti. Note that the dominant personality of the cohorts remain through life.

First Wave Adaptives tend to be STJs. For this cycle, this means that the period from 1946 - 1955 was an STJ period. They tend to be administrators of society. With new institutions forged in the Crisis, the Adaptive accepts the outcome of the Crisis instead of working to change society (like their older NT siblings) The top priority is to maintain stability. Being kids during the turbulent Crisis, these Adaptives will tend to maintain stability at all costs. With the T archetypes in total control - with 5 T types and 1 F type (the SFP Reactives entering the second tier of elderhood) - the culture is at its peak sterility and spiritualism at a minimum.

Second Wave Adaptives tend to be SFJs, and they came of age last from about 1955 - 1963. Because this is an F type in a world of T types, this tends to be the subversive subtype. Their concern is not politics, economics, or science. Rather, they are concerned with religion, culture, and morals. It is no coincidence that the years of their coming of age coincided roughly with the rise of the modern (read: post-Crisis) Civil Rights Movement. They are also concerned with stability, but they do it through the culture and spirituality. Their aim is to make sure that everyone gets along, and that people feel like they belong to society. The movements they started looked like carbon copies of the 1930s-era Crisis movements. The Civil Rights Movement was basically an extension of the New Deal across race, and even the Port Huron Statement seemed more like a modernized 1930s text.

First Wave Idealists are NFJ, as a whole, and came of age from about 1963 - 1973. Unlike the Adaptives, they are not as concerned with social stability. Like NFJs, these Idealists work to fit the individual with the new morality and culture. This includes the anti-war movement, the Black Power Movement, and other 1960s movements. These types also tend to be more authoritarian than their second wave siblings, imposing their brand of morality on people of all ages.

The Second Wave Idealists are NFP, and came of age from 1973 to about 1982. Instead of fitting the individual with the new values regime, the NFP works to adapt the values regime to the individual. These types are not as likely to impose their morality on others. This manifests in very creative artistic works and new spiritualism. The NFP era was the disco era, and also the period when perhaps the most inwardly spiritual music was made. This was also the era of the Human Potential Movement, of New Age spirituality, and of resurgent evangelism focused on a "personal god".

First Wave Reactives are SFP, and came of age from 1982 - 1994. Unlike the Idealists, the Reactives are not interested in exploring new spiritual and cultural frontiers, but rather in expanding what was created by their older siblings. Unlike the Idealists, who tend to be other-worldly, the Reactives are grounded in the real world. And their art reflects it. The 1980s were very rich artistically, with many classic hits that rival their older siblings. This was also a very culturally focused period. Like all Reactives, these types have a keen business sense, as was witnessed in the rise of corporatism through the 1980s.

Last Wave Reactives are STP, coming of age from 1994 - 2004. At this time, there are 5 F types and 1 T type. So these are the new subversives. They are less interested in the culture, and more interested in economics, politics, rationalism, and technology. Few people will say that the era had really good artistic works compared to prior eras. But the economic, technological, and scientific production was much better than those eras. This was the period of the rise of technology (which parallels the rise of technology in the 1920s and the rise of industrialism in the 1850s), and also of an economic boom. They are grounded in the real world. They have to constantly fight against the irrationalism of their elders, and work to create a society that is workable.

First Wave Civics are NTPs, coming of age now, and last time from about 1929 - 1938. Where the Reactives were grounded in "reality", the Civics fight reality, leading to the rise of an increasingly escapist and imaginary culture (think Disney and science fiction). These types are interested in structural potential. They are the types to imagine a new social structure to solve real or perceived problems. These Civics tend to be utopians, and think nothing of dismantling the old regime, and replacing it. Because of their P nature, this is an era of live experimentation, whether the experiment started in the 1770s or FDR's experimentation. They are wholistic rationalist thinkers, and build their new society around whatever paradigm fits their style of rationality.

Second Wave Civics are the NTJs, and came of age last from 1938 - 1946. The culture is less escapist than before. If the first wavers were concerned with structure and organization, these last wavers are concerned with order. They are the masters of planning (WWII). They are also the most determined of all the types, and are very good at science and technology. Their rationalism is not as confined to an imaginary world, as they project it much more on the outer world. They work towards a distant goal, and they pursue the goal single-mindedly. They are not as concerned with structural potential as they are with dreaming up new forms of order to provide maximum social efficiency. These types run organizations better than any other type. They will use ideas indiscriminately if it helps them towards their goals.

Excellent analysis

These types are interested in structural potential. They are the types to imagine a new social structure to solve real or perceived problems. These Civics tend to be utopians, and think nothing of dismantling the old regime, and replacing it. Because of their P nature, this is an era of live experimentation, whether the experiment started in the 1770s or FDR's experimentation. They are wholistic rationalist thinkers, and build their new society around whatever paradigm fits their style of rationality.

This fits my mindset (and yours) perfectly.

Originally Posted by Odin

I ran into my sister and 7yo niece today and my niece definitely strikes me as ENFJ. My sister seems to be ESFP.

Change that, my neice seems to actually be an INFJ.

My mom (late Boomer, bartender) seems to be an INFP

My dad (late Boomer, sugarbeet processing machine operator) seems to be an ESTJ

My stepdad (late Boomer, Mr. loves to be in the garage all day and road construction worker) is obviously an ISTP

My maternal grandmother (early Silent, retired nurse) seems to be ISFJ.

I still think my sister (late Xer, massage therapist) is an ESFP.

Originally Posted by Odin

This fits my mindset (and yours) perfectly.

S&H themselves stated in T4T that archetypes were akin to MBTI. Where we disagreed was that S&H penned Reactives as being SJs, and Adaptives as SPs. There is debate, as some think that Reactives becoming cautious conservatives in midlife confirming that they are SJs, and Adaptives becoming drawn to socially risky behavior in midlife confirms that they are SPs. But there is virtually no debate that Idealists are NFs and that Civics are NTs.

To expand on this, of course individuals are of all different types. I doubt that the proportion of MBTI types among individuals changes between generations. But social forces will cause a certain cohort group to assume one of the types. This of course affects individuals differently. In 1968 inner-city Oakland, for example, an ENFJ might easily become a leader of the Black Power Movement, preaching about the new communal values based upon their 10-point program. An INFJ in the same setting would connect people personally to the new community values regime. That period was made for the ENFJ, and the INFJ.

In 1977 New York, an ENFP artist would feel right at home, as would an INFP poet. In 1977 Kansas, an ENFP evangelist would feel right at home, preaching about his own personal conversion experience, while an INFP would adapt the "personal Jesus" to whoever is interested. Kevin Parker, an NFP-wave Boom NTJ, however, didn't have such a good time, and was really put off by the excessive irrationalism of the era.

In 1951 Birmingham, an STJ would feel at home in an excessively stable society, whether black or white. Even the black person may be at a great unease at upsetting the racial order of the period. The STJ would very much support the McCarthy witch hunt. At NTP would feel very out of place. If he is a leftist, he would yearn for the good ole days of mainstream radical politics (which would mean the 1930s), and would very well fear the McCarthy Era.

An NTP intellectual would likely find the 1930s to be a very good decade, minus the depression. The rising science fiction genre would seem so wondrous. Technocracy would have been a very attractive social movement. Socialism would've been an exciting idea to debate not only in Ivy League universities, but even on the street corners of Harlem. The NTP would've likely been less thrilled by FDRs New Deal, than by some even more radical political/economic system, as did GI campus activists. An NTJ would have a similar sentiment, but would likely view the period as more directionless, and more undisciplined. An NFJ might turn heavily towards religion in dark and scary times. They would not relate well to the new structuralism and rationalism, and would likely perceive chaos in society (where the NTPs would perceive rising organization). They would use the dominant communal cultural values of the era to unite the community. An NFP would also feel less home with the structuralism and rationalism of the period. But they would still follow some ideology that would fit their dream society the best, and would create cultural work to communicate their visions of a society "somewhere over the rainbow." An STP would likely be more turned off by radical politics. He would love the stark utilitarianism of social life during this period, and would be at an unease at the way the familiar world is being torn down, but would persevere very well in hard times compared to others. An SFP would also be uneasy about social change. However, in dark times, they have an ability to lighten people up with their cultural productions, and might also produce historic artistic works about the mighty events occurring in the decade and how it is affecting people at the time. An STJ would greatly fear a restless population, and would probably freak out watching a cataclysmic total system failure of the social order and the birth of the new regime. The STJ might support a movement that aims to re-establish the old order (perhaps, even minus the democracy) by any means necessary. An STJ would careful guard the critical links in civilization in order to prevent critical material problems from destroying society (any further, at least). An SFJ would feel much the same as the STJ, but they might be more hesitant to support strongman leadership. They would likely turn more towards religion, and would become the social hosts of the community.