I would agree with S&H although I think the division should be proportional; that's more logical to me. IOW you have NFs and NTs, so the other two types should be STs (reactives) and SF (adaptive); but I would also agree with what S&H said.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

I would agree with S&H although I think the division should be proportional; that's more logical to me. IOW you have NFs and NTs, so the other two types should be STs (reactives) and SF (adaptive); but I would also agree with what S&H said.

There is considerable debate in the MBTI community about proportionality. Meyers, Briggs, and Keirsey all believed that the temperaments are not really proportional. Their observations are that for S types, the the differences between the thinkers and feelers are not nearly as important as the differences between perceivers. So theoretically, the ISTP is much closer to the ISFP than he is to the ISTJ. For the N types, the difference between the T and the F are much greater than that of J and P. An NT will therefore relate to the conceptual world of science, technology, and rationalism while the NF will relate to the conceptual world of culture and spirituality. So it is with generations.

This means that the Ts include last wave Reactives, first wave Adaptives, and both Civic waves while the Fs include last wave Adaptives, first wave Reactives, and both Idealist waves. The Ps include last wave Idealists, first wave Civics, and both Reactive waves, while the Js include first wave Idealists, last wave Civics, and both Adaptive waves. The Ns, of course, are the Civics and Idealists while the Ss are the Adaptives and Reactives.

I disagree that Adaptives are Fs while Reactives are Ts. Remember that during the Awakening, the Adaptives are split between those who agree with the Civics and those who agree with the Idealists. So theoretically, the first wave Adaptives will contain more T types, while the last wave will contain more F types. While many of the prominent Adaptives were F types, I see no evidence that Adaptives did not have a strong T rationality component. The Civil Rights Era of 1955 - 1963 coincides with the SF component of Adaptives, while the period from 1947 - 1955 coincides with the ST component.

The other side is much easier to see. The period from about 1983 - 1994 definitely belonged with the SF core of Xers to me. The fashions were much wilder than they are now. Also, that was the era of significant cultural movements. The 2T era mindset still had considerable power through this era. As for popular culture, the Xer musicians of the period were actually part of a cultural movement, a major difference being that the movement was centered around the real world rather than some "Aquarian Conspiracy." This is clearly seen in the Hip Hop and Punk worlds. The artists of the era had much more "feeling" in their art, and the point of the movement was actually to express something. In the realm of technology, there was still plenty of fear and ignorance about it outside the geek world. The period from roughly 1994 - 2004 took a ST tone. The cultural movements seemed to die as soon as the ST wave began to come of age. The point of making culture was no longer to "express anything", but rather to make more money. Compare the Hip Hop between the SF and ST waves. ST wave Hip Hop has sunk entirely into materialism. In the community, there is considerable tension between the older and younger Hip Hop Generation waves along these lines. Fashion became much more functional than that of the SF wave period (no pun intended). In the realm of technology, the ST period outshines the SF period in every conceivable way. The Internet exploded as soon as the ST Xers came on the scene. Where the heroes of the SF era were the pop culture icons, the heroes of the ST wave are the technology developers. Instead of Madonna, there was John Carmack. Instead of Michael Jackson, there was Bill Gates. And because of that, the ST Xer wave is a subversive one.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

Reading Keirsey, one would think so. Ti and Ne being right instead of left brained definitely makes sense, given that P types tend to be divergent in their thinking while J types are convergent. Given my generations/mbti personality, this means that first wave Idealists (NFJ) are left-brained convergent thinkers, last wavers (NFP) are right-brained divergent thinkers, and that first wave Civics (NTP) are right-brained divergent thinkers, while the last wavers are left-brained convergent thinkers. Reactives are right-brained, while Adaptives are left-brained.

On the subject of left-brained vs. right-brained:



You Are 35% Left Brained, 65% Right Brained

The left side of your brain controls verbal ability, attention to detail, and reasoning.
Left brained people are good at communication and persuading others.
If you're left brained, you are likely good at math and logic.
Your left brain prefers dogs, reading, and quiet.

The right side of your brain is all about creativity and flexibility.
Daring and intuitive, right brained people see the world in their unique way.
If you're right brained, you likely have a talent for creative writing and art.
Your right brain prefers day dreaming, philosophy, and sports.

Are You Right or Left Brained?

http://www.blogthings.com/areyourightorleftbrainedquiz/

*** You Are 30% Left Brained, 70% Right Brained ***

You Are 25% Left Brained, 75% Right Brained


The left side of your brain controls verbal ability, attention to detail, and reasoning.
Left brained people are good at communication and persuading others.
If you're left brained, you are likely good at math and logic.
Your left brain prefers dogs, reading, and quiet.

The right side of your brain is all about creativity and flexibility.
Daring and intuitive, right brained people see the world in their unique way.
If you're right brained, you likely have a talent for creative writing and art.
Your right brain prefers day dreaming, philosophy, and sports.

Pat, another INTP, never took Part II. Does it cost much?

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

You Are 25% Left Brained, 75% Right Brained
Pat, another INTP, never took Part II. Does it cost much?

I've seen the online version go from a bit over $100.00 to $150.00. Since I'm not sure of the rules on posting commercial content, I can use the email function to the one I used if you'd like. It was at the lower end of the cost range and included a phone consultation (which I think is important). I consider myself lucky in that the person doing the consultations is an ENTP. As I'm sure you're aware INTP's are a bit rare , but I think ENTP's are close enough to know what makes us tick.

I'm not sure how accurate this is. The questions were very either/or... and many of my answers fell somewhere in-between. In fact I do have a strong creative streak... I'd say I'm actually more like 55% left-brained, 45% right.

You Are 65% Left Brained, 35% Right Brained



The left side of your brain controls verbal ability, attention to detail, and reasoning.
Left brained people are good at communication and persuading others.
If you're left brained, you are likely good at math and logic.
Your left brain prefers dogs, reading, and quiet.

The right side of your brain is all about creativity and flexibility.
Daring and intuitive, right brained people see the world in their unique way.
If you're right brained, you likely have a talent for creative writing and art.
Your right brain prefers day dreaming, philosophy, and sports.

Are You Right or Left Brained?

http://www.blogthings.com/areyourightorleftbrainedquiz/

60% Left brained, 40% right.

From personal self knowledge, I tend to agree with that proportion.

You Are 50% Left Brained, 50% Right Brained

The left side of your brain controls verbal ability, attention to detail, and reasoning.
Left brained people are good at communication and persuading others.
If you're left brained, you are likely good at math and logic.
Your left brain prefers dogs, reading, and quiet.

The right side of your brain is all about creativity and flexibility.
Daring and intuitive, right brained people see the world in their unique way.
If you're right brained, you likely have a talent for creative writing and art.
Your right brain prefers day dreaming, philosophy, and sports.

http://www.blogthings.com/areyourightorleftbrainedquiz/

Oh, look, another meme.

You Are 70% Left Brained, 30% Right Brained

This statment from Eric in another thread shows that, IMO, he's an INFP, not a INTP like he insists:

Not in general. It is still up to science to do the thought and research to change a theory, not the critics. However, some theories like Darwin have so many red flags and are liable to such abuse that it should be an indication to scientists that there is something to take another look at.

An INTP wouldn't attack a hypothesis based on it's moral implications because an INTP values truth. That fact that Eric is attacking a scirntific truth because he thinks it can be abused and thus damage societal harmony is good evidence that he is an F, not a T.

Originally Posted by Odin

This statment from Eric in another thread shows that, IMO, he's an INFP, not a INTP like he insists:



An INTP wouldn't attack a hypothesis based on it's moral implications because an INTP values truth. That fact that Eric is attacking a scientific truth because he thinks it can be abused and thus damage societal harmony is good evidence that he is an F, not a T.

Me saying I am INTP is not based on anything but the results of me taking the MBTI test in written form (not on an internet site). In any case, the score between T and F is so close that I should really be called INxP.

Remember too that temperament is not the same as philosophy. Even there though, I am close between the left and right-brained approach (it will be interesting for me to take that quiz). But being very much a spiritualist, which is similar to an idealist as Kiersey defines it, my estimate is that I am closer to F than to T philosophically. Hence my quoted comment. However, as perhaps you can tell by the way I write, I am very much a thinker. It has been hard for me to stop my thinking, I have been so dominated by it. MBTI seems right that thinking is my dominant function-- although if I change just one answer on the MBTI questionnaire, then my least dominant function F becomes my dominant function -- according to MBTI.

You Odin (as you say) accept what I call ideology #3-- scientism and rationalism, etc. We disagree there. I wonder if you accept that approach unthinkingly or whether you have questioned it. And my position is that morality and values are just as much a part of reality as sense data. But to each his own.

You Are 45% Left Brained, 55% Right Brained

Very close score, as I suspected. But this matches my position on my philosophy wheel.
http://www.california.com/~eameece/questionnaire.htm

It sure took me a while though to answer whether I base my decisions on logic or intuition. I chose intuition, but that may be wrong.

Originally Posted by Mr. Reed

There is considerable debate in the MBTI community about proportionality. Meyers, Briggs, and Keirsey all believed that the temperaments are not really proportional. Their observations are that for S types, the differences between the thinkers and feelers are not nearly as important as the differences between perceivers. So theoretically, the ISTP is much closer to the ISFP than he is to the ISTJ. For the N types, the difference between the T and the F are much greater than that of J and P. An NT will therefore relate to the conceptual world of science, technology, and rationalism while the NF will relate to the conceptual world of culture and spirituality. So it is with generations.

INTP for example are philosophers and architects, like me. They should not be defined solely as computer geeks, science nerds or high-tech wizards. Those INTPs who are that have a strong T score; those like me who have a weak T score are of the former inclination.

I didn't see any such thing in Myers & Briggs's book though. They mentioned four types of people right up front: NTs, NFs, SFs and STs. Those to me are the central types, based on functions. That's the core of us.

This means that the Ts include last wave Reactives, first wave Adaptives, and both Civic waves while the Fs include last wave Adaptives, first wave Reactives, and both Idealist waves. The Ps include last wave Idealists, first wave Civics, and both Reactive waves, while the Js include first wave Idealists, last wave Civics, and both Adaptive waves. The Ns, of course, are the Civics and Idealists while the Ss are the Adaptives and Reactives.

An interesting idea I'll try to keep in mind. I don't think I agree though. The sharp-eyed survivalists who are the early Xers seem ESTPs to me. They are the entrepreneur type par excellance. Their "wild" style reflected that temperament. As far as I remember the early Xers were very tech-savvy too. That's when the whole trend came into vogue and computer professionals arose.

I wouldn't think we can peg everything about adaptives and nomads on how close they are in time to civics or idealists. They have their own identity. Reactives react to their predecessors; they don't continue their ways. Same with adaptives. That's the basis of the whole theory. I don't know why T and F would shift across generational lines, while N and S would not.

I disagree that Adaptives are Fs while Reactives are Ts. Remember that during the Awakening, the Adaptives are split between those who agree with the Civics and those who agree with the Idealists. So theoretically, the first wave Adaptives will contain more T types, while the last wave will contain more F types. While many of the prominent Adaptives were F types, I see no evidence that Adaptives did not have a strong T rationality component. The Civil Rights Era of 1955 - 1963 coincides with the SF component of Adaptives, while the period from 1947 - 1955 coincides with the ST component.

All the adaptives did in those years was go along with the crowd. I'm not sure the "silent generation" (that's how they got their name) did much thinking, although they did a lot of conforming and fitting themselves for positions and titles. Adaptives are described by the authors as "people who need people" (archetypal F). No other type has more F traits than adaptives. They are empathetic and artistic; that's why they are called "artists" by the authors. Flexibility also means F, as confirmed on the left/right brain test here posted. Adaptives are flexible, tolerant, and hate generalizations (such as generation theories).

By the way I could agree with Strauss and Howe that they are largely P, but I would not agree that "reactives" (I don't like that name) are predominantly J. If anything they are also more P than J. I would say Civics are J, and Idealists lean that way too.

The other side is much easier to see. The period from about 1983 - 1994 definitely belonged with the SF core of Xers to me. The fashions were much wilder than they are now.

Fashions now reflect the influence of civics.

Also, that was the era of significant cultural movements. The 2T era mindset still had considerable power through this era. As for popular culture, the Xer musicians of the period were actually part of a cultural movement, a major difference being that the movement was centered around the real world rather than some "Aquarian Conspiracy." This is clearly seen in the Hip Hop and Punk worlds. The artists of the era had much more "feeling" in their art, and the point of the movement was actually to express something. In the realm of technology, there was still plenty of fear and ignorance about it outside the geek world. The period from roughly 1994 - 2004 took a ST tone. The cultural movements seemed to die as soon as the ST wave began to come of age. The point of making culture was no longer to "express anything", but rather to make more money. Compare the Hip Hop between the SF and ST waves. ST wave Hip Hop has sunk entirely into materialism. In the community, there is considerable tension between the older and younger Hip Hop Generation waves along these lines. Fashion became much more functional than that of the SF wave period (no pun intended). In the realm of technology, the ST period outshines the SF period in every conceivable way. The Internet exploded as soon as the ST Xers came on the scene. Where the heroes of the SF era were the pop culture icons, the heroes of the ST wave are the technology developers. Instead of Madonna, there was John Carmack. Instead of Michael Jackson, there was Bill Gates. And because of that, the ST Xer wave is a subversive one.

I think the early Xers were focused on making money almost exclusively. Many of them still are; now they are peddling real estate loans. They bought into the civic Ronald Reagan ideology, not the Idealist Aquarian Conspiracy. The later styles and cultural movements were just as significant as earlier ones (neither wave produced much in the way of significant culture anyway; if you say "punk" was "significant," then I have to disagree). The later waves were the ones who created grunge, goth, and many other styles, and who hung out in coffee houses. They were more like the hippies than the early Xers, and were very sociable. They were called slackers. I guess I see the two waves differently than you do. The main difference is that later Xers are less cynical and conservative than early ones. The early wavers were clearly risk-takers, but I know later ones who are the same way.

If punk was "saying something," isn't that a T trait?

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

You Odin (as you say) accept what I call ideology #3-- scientism and rationalism, etc. We disagree there. I wonder if you accept that approach unthinkingly or whether you have questioned it.

I have a tendency sometimes of exaggeration a sarcasm to make a point. I don't follow "scientism" in the negative sense of the term, I am not naive enough to think that all things can be solved by applying the scientific method. There are a lot of fields (such as ethics, many parts of history, political theory, etc) that have too much inheirent subjectivity in them for scientific analysis. I disagree with you that Objective = Materialistic and Subjective = Spiritualistic. I don't see any inhierent contradiction with being a materialist and accepting the reality of the subjective. The main reason I am a materialist is Ockham's razor, I consider a spiritual realm I have never experienced an unnecessary complication. Untill I have some kind of spiritual experience I cannot say a spiritual ream exists.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

The quote button did not include the quote from me. Refer to a post above.

Me saying I am INTP is not based on anything but the results of me taking the MBTI test in written form (not on an internet site). In any case, the score between T and F is so close that I should really be called INxP.

Eric, the dominant function of an INTP is T, and surely your dominant function is not T if you are so conflicted or ambivalent on that scale that T and F come out about even. Is it fair to say that N blows away S on your other scale? If so, then surely N is your dominant function. As an introvert, you would be either INTJ or INFJ. Note that INFJ shares both Ti and Fe with INTP. Might you actually be INFJ?

As I recall, any time I have taken one of these tests (and I haven't in a long time), T has always scored 90-95%, leaving F in the dust with 5-10%. By contrast, N has usually scored 70-75%, leaving S with a healthy 25-30%. Based upon this, surely it is safe to conclude that T is my dominant function. Would we not expect T to be clearly dominant when an INTP takes such a test?

If these tests are good for anything at all, surely it is in isolating the dominant function. My dominant function would clearly appear to be T whereas yours would appear to be N. I would submit that you are most likely an INFJ, a type much closer to INTP than INTJ is, if we consider that INFJ and INTP share two functions (Ti and Fe) whereas INTP and INTJ share none. Thus, I can see where an INFJ might relate to INTP in a pronounced way as you appear to do.

What am I missing? Why would the scale with the more extreme difference not be representing the dominant function opposing the inferior function? In any case, why would one's dominant function ever be fighting to keep its head above water against one's inferior function? That just does not make a whole lot of sense to me.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

INTP for example are philosophers and architects, like me. They should not be defined solely as computer geeks, science nerds or high-tech wizards. Those INTPs who are that have a strong T score; those like me who have a weak T score are of the former inclination.

Actually, are not "computer geeks, science nerds or high-tech wizards" more typically INTJ and not INTP? My T score is 90%+ and I have always taken more naturally to philosophy and architecture. Really, I suspect it is the difference between taking more naturally to geometry as opposed to algebra (per that brain hemisphere thing). I'd be willing to bet that INTJs, by contrast, take more naturally to algebra than geometry.

Flexibility also means F, as confirmed on the left/right brain test here posted.

Flexibility means P.

By the way I could agree with Strauss and Howe that they are largely P, but I would not agree that "reactives" (I don't like that name) are predominantly J. If anything they are also more P than J.

Absolutely. The defining ability to adapt and improvise (i.e., the flexibility) is textbook P.

I would say Civics are J, and Idealists lean that way too.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Mustang

Eric, the dominant function of an INTP is T, and surely your dominant function is not T if you are so conflicted or ambivalent on that scale that T and F come out about even. Is it fair to say that N blows away S on your other scale? If so, then surely N is your dominant function. As an introvert, you would be either INTJ or INFJ. Note that INFJ shares both Ti and Fe with INTP. Might you actually be INFJ?

After reading the Enneagram thread I'm really starting to think Eric is an INFJ, especially after reading the discussion about Neisha being INTP or INFJ. Or he could just be an INTP who developed his inferior Fe fuction at an earlier age then normal because of his experiences in the 2T.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

By the way I could agree with Strauss and Howe that they are largely P, but I would not agree that "reactives" (I don't like that name) are predominantly J. If anything they are also more P than J. I would say Civics are J, and Idealists lean that way too.

I think Robert's analysis is pretty much right. Late Prophets, Nomads, and early Civics are lean P while late Civics, Artists, and early Prophets lean J.

P = chaos = libertarian, J = order = communitarian

Early Civics tend to have an left-libertarian/anarchist bent while later civics, those who come of age after the regeneracy, are more trusting of authority.

It is just the opposite with the Prophets, the ones comming of age after the peak of the Awakening (Watergate in the last 2T) tend towards P while the ones who come of age before the peak tend towards J.

Just wanted to check in as another female INTP. Glad to have some company.

Originally Posted by chriscol

Just wanted to check in as another female INTP. Glad to have some company.

Welcome to the forum.

Welcome Criscol.

The results of an MBTI test I found:

Please bear in mind that the DDLI does not tell you what your type is. It merely indicates what might be your type with some degree of probability. Do not take your results on the DDLI as the final word on what your type is. With that said, here are your results:

Taylor+Selseth's scores on the main set of questions:
Extraversion (E): 13 56 : (I) Introversion
Sensing (S): 0 97 : (N) iNtuition
Thinking (T): 111 0 : (F) Feeling
Judging (J): 8 65 : (P) Perceiving

You scored as an INTP.


Assuming that you are an INTP,
Your DOMINANT function is Introverted Thinking.
Your AUXILIARY function is Extraverted Intuition.
Your TERTIARY function is Introverted Sensing.
Your INFERIOR function is Extraverted Feeling.


Please bear in mind that the supplementary questions are experimental and may be highly unreliable. If these scores conflict with your previous scores, it is probably because the questions are still not reliable enough.


Taylor+Selseth's scores on the supplementary questions:
Extraverted Thinking / Introverted Feeling : 39
Extraverted Feeling / Introverted Thinking : 32

Extraverted Intuition / Introverted Sensing : 21
Extraverted Sensing / Introverted Intuition : 30

Rationality (Dominant Judging Function) : 33
A-rationality (Dominant Perceiving Function) : 25
According to the supplementary scores, Taylor+Selseth could be an ENTJ or an ISFP. These are opposite types, because the supplementary
questions measure for preferences that opposite types share in common. See the FAQ for an explanation.


These results conflict with the evaluation of Taylor+Selseth as an INTP.
You may wish to save this file for later reference. You can also download the raw score file, which can be used with the off-line, downloadable DDLI program.


For more information, visit: the orginal DDLI page.

The test: http://4np.net/ddli/

Jungian function humor.

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3970

Extraverted Thinking:

Knows how to do everything, and is the natural master at perfecting them. They're also pretty good at *telling* people how much they know about everything, along with willingly volunteering to demonstrate their far superior skills. They know the "right" way something should be done, and have little inhabition in holding back their perfect opinions.

Extraverted Feeling:

They can please everyone they meet with little effort. In fact, they are so confident that everyone likes them that they feel no need to even question their interpersonal skills. They only act in ways they already establish to be "socially accepted". If they should be crying, they shed a tear, if they need to compliment someone, they will, because these are the only ways to make friends. Naturally, the shedded tear dries up as soon as no one is looking.

Introverted Thinking:

God forbid we actually rely on tested evidence to prove something. Anything even remotely connected to reality is, obviously, wrong. The only "truth" in the world is that belonging to the Introverted Thinker, naturally. Unfortunatly, one of them *knows* something that is completely contradictory to another Introverted Thinker. YET EVERYONE OF THEM IS RIGHT, ALWAYS... THERE IS NEVER AN EXCEPTION. Oh, and don't criticize their idea of the truth, either. They take it personally.

Introverted Feeling:

Everyone's evil. They love saying, "What's wrong with you?" Of course, everything is wrong with everyone else, not them. They think everyone's out to "get" them. They secretly think that people are consipiring to eventually kill them. Just watch yourself; this is the type to lure you in, then stab you in the back.

Extraverted Sensing:

"Oh God, forgive me! I know not what I do!" New job promotion? OooOops, I was too busy partying last night and overslept. Doctor's appointment? Sorry, it's time for seeeeeexxx. Taxes due? Hell, I'll worry about that later. As long as I can get a hold of your think, hard penis, yum yum yum. Anything to avoid work... LiKe coOl yOoo!! LOOK AT ME, LOOK LOOK LOOK, I'M SO GREAT AND STRONG AND BETTER THAN YOUS-GUYS... ARRGHHH... MONKEY KNIFE FIGHT!!!

Extraverted Intuition:

Can't stand in place for more than 10 seconds. They have the attention span of a retarded poodle, and will scream at the top of their lungs as soon as they learn something new; the world needs to know. "Here, listen to me play the guitar... oh, wait, hold on, I also heard this funny joke early, it's about a Polish guy who... hey, did you know aliens are actually real and the goverment tries to cover it up? Watch ME do a cartwhell... hehehe, yay!"

Introverted Sensing:

Could they be any more inappropriate? Don't they realize that there are "norms" to be followed? Believe it or not, there is a whole nother world to participate in here, wake up and be apart of it already! Duh. And don't think that you're so cool when you throw violent rages because you repressed everything to the breaking point in the first place. Oh, and you're not really that cool and "your" ways of doing things really aren't that effective anyway even if you pretend it's true.

Introverted Intuition:

Let's time float away into the great abyss, and don't really care about it anyway. What's a day really? The only thing that really matters is their all-too-comfortable dream world filled with goblins and fairies and lilly pads. Unfortunately, this dream world is eventually mistaken for reality, and they believe it too. What does this mean? Of course, it meas that everyone else in the world is crazy because they can't see what the Introverted Intuitive sees. Everyone else must be criticized for their stupidity.

http://www.xeromag.com/fun/personality.html