Originally Posted by ASB65

I'm feeling totally out numbered on this board.

I'm an ESFJ born 1965.

I went back and read a description of my personality type. So does that mean that "IN's" are the opposite? Just curious about what the main characterists of of IN's are.

I take an evolutionary approach. To whit evolutionary value is precisely the opposite of economic value. In economics scarcity creates value. In evolution prevalence denotes value. Traits crucial to organismic survival become universal amongst animal populations. The degree of it's commonality is the degree of it's value within a species. Or it is, at least, a snapshot of it's value, as environments do change. My long winded point is that SP's and SJ's make up, IIRC, about 75% of the population. This means their traits are, at least evolutionarily, of the most social value. On major caveat is that this does not apply to sexually selected characteristics.

On a different note, I find thinking of the personality traits in expressed form is useful. This is presented quite early in "Please understand me II". Kiersey presents them as having originated with Myers-briggs.

Briefly...


E: expressive I: reserved
S: observing N: introspective
T: tough-minded F: friendly
J: scheduling P: probing


I find myself translating everyone's results into this form because it's an interpretation based upon observed behavior.

Under this typology and ENTP like me would be an Expressive, Introspective, Tough-minded, Prober.

I am only 50% at using it predictively.

Hope this contributes...

Originally Posted by Skabungus

Yea, since I started taking the MBTI I've tested as ENFP. The past two years I've tested as ENTP...


...No terrible things have fallen on me, but rather my life has changed by nature and my own choosing. I dont think it has to be lightening bolts from the sky or the death of a loved one that makes one change. I think it happens normally. Such would be (I think) expected if we look at the theory seriously.

I tend to agree with this. I do respect that we're each hard-wired, so to speak, with certain characteristics intrinsic to our individual make up which impact how we respond to life. But I also believe in environmental shapers that either exacerbate or mute what is intrinsic.

Personality theory is an interesting study if, as you wrote, it is taken with a grain of salt and not misused. I enjoy it academically but probably because I find human motivation and the complicated and contradictory layers of our psychological make-up quite fascinating. We're a captivating mess.

As a parent, I do think these kinds of assessments are beneficial if used as one means of understanding and empathizing with our children.

Though I did get a self-deprecating laugh when I discovered that, as an ISFJ, my Keirsey temperment is Guardian-protector. Pair that with S & H's theory of Nomad over-protection in mid-life and the kids in my life don't stand a chance.

INTP again, though my introversion is way less pronounced.

People can fundamentally change!

(You listening Brian?)

Here is a good website for other INFJs on the board:

http://www.infj.com

Originally Posted by Matt1989

People can fundamentally change!

Change is very hard and unusual. I think to understand change, the Holmes-Rahe stress scale gives a clue as to what could actually cause real change. This scale assigns a score to life stressors and has been used to correlate life events with likelihood of illness. Here are the top 10 out of 43:

Death of a spouse 100
Divorce 73
Marital separation 65
Imprisonment 63
Death of a close family member 63
Personal injury or illness 53
Marriage 50
Dismissal from work 47
Marital reconciliation 45
Retirement 45

My own sense is that the top three that may cause fundamental change are death of a spouse, imprisonment, and personal illness that could lead to death. Without one of these, I think we basically stay the same.

Mood also seems to be very sticky. Whether it is winning the lottery or becoming a paraplegic, events that happened more than 3 months ago have almost no impact on mood. Very interesting TED lecture (22 minutes) here:

http://bit.ly/RfDu3

James50

I've read that under long-term stress a type can resemble other types, which type depends on the exact stress level

So for an INFJ it would be, from low stress to high stress:

ENFJ (Fe takes control)
ISTP (Ti takes control)
ESTP (Se takes control), this is the "classic" INFJ stress presentation

Most people don't reach the higher stress levels, which would be the result of extensive long-term emotional trauma like abuse. When this stage is reached the shadow functions come out.

ENFP (Ne takes control)
INFP (Fi takes control)
ESTJ (Te takes control)
ISTJ (Si takes control)

This would explain why I typed as an INTP for so long, stress from high school bullying sent me to the ISTP stress stage for long periods.

Originally Posted by Odin

ISTJ (Si takes control)

I'm missing something here. Isn't Si the dominant function already for us ISTJ's?

Originally Posted by Child of Socrates

I'm missing something here. Isn't Si the dominant function already for us ISTJ's?

Yes, my post was specifically about INFJs

Originally Posted by Odin

Yes, my post was specifically about INFJs

OK, got it.

Glad to see this thread active again.

Gen Y: INTJ (rational-mastermind)

I have taken a version of this test 3 different times and have gotten the same results.

Found this forum:
http://intjforum.com/

Thread bumped

I got stuck on question 1: Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

I don't really know. I can't stand being by myself unless I'm very tired or have something important to concentrate on. I sort of need people around me or I get really bored really quickly. But if they're people I don't like, or mean people, I feel really drained after talking to them.

Originally Posted by Adina

I got stuck on question 1: Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

I don't really know. I can't stand being by myself unless I'm very tired or have something important to concentrate on. I sort of need people around me or I get really bored really quickly. But if they're people I don't like, or mean people, I feel really drained after talking to them.

I believe this refers to your preferred source of stimulus. For you this sounds like exterior stimuli and so extrovertion. Of course,with the MBTI you decide of course.

The best way to answer the question about extraversion vs introversion is this:

"You're at a party where there is lots of socializing. The people are nice and whatever is going on is a lot of fun. You're enjoying it. BUT --

1) Do you come home with your batteries all recharged and full of energy?
2) Do you find it enjoyable, but need some time alone to recharge your batteries before you go out again?"

You learn that very, very quickly if you go to science fiction conventions, whether Worldcon size or small and local. I'm a total introvert, for example - I love the goings-on, but crash and burn without my downtime - which has to be alone.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

The best way to answer the question about extraversion vs introversion is this:

"You're at a party where there is lots of socializing. The people are nice and whatever is going on is a lot of fun. You're enjoying it. BUT --

1) Do you come home with your batteries all recharged and full of energy?
2) Do you find it enjoyable, but need some time alone to recharge your batteries before you go out again?"

You learn that very, very quickly if you go to science fiction conventions, whether Worldcon size or small and local. I'm a total introvert, for example - I love the goings-on, but crash and burn without my downtime - which has to be alone.

Sort of both. When I get home, I am very happy and full of energy, but then a few hours later, I just need to be alone for awhile.

Hello everyone,
This is just a reminder that we do have a Myers Briggs thread.
Thank you and carry on.

Originally Posted by Rose1992

Hello everyone,
This is just a reminder that we do have a Myers Briggs thread.
Thank you and carry on.

LOL, I completely forgot about it!

From elsewhere...

Originally Posted by millennialX

Wow...didn't know there were so many of "Them."

Funny thing is that people think I'm an "T" because I read a lot. So what...Fs are thinkers, just because its not our primary function? LOL

The cool thing about INFJs is the fact that we are all about experiencing situations that promote personal growth and think that we have a little bit of all of the other personalities. (at least that's what I read in one of my many articles on the subject.)

So I appreciate "Ts" and some how become close friends with them. My dad is a INTJ so I also have learned how to "deal" with "them."

Actually, us Fs think just as much as Ts, better labels to use are Facts vs Values.

FJs like you and me have Extroverted Feeling, which is all about values in relation to others, backed up by Introverted Thinking, which is about one's own personal views on the workings of the world. So we FJs use our inner world of facts and ideas to inform our socially-oriented values.

TJs, on the other hand, have extroverted thinking, is all about empirical data that can be demonstrated to others based on socially-accepted criteria, backed up by introvered feeling, which is one's own personal system of values. So TJs use their personal value system to inform their logical systems.

Originally Posted by Odin

From elsewhere...

Actually, us Fs think just as much as Ts, better labels to use are Facts vs Values.

Thanks, this makes sense.

One thing I've noticed on some lists I'm on, when the subject turns to things tangentially political. I'll be giving a long historical overview of, say, why Silent men and women were often at odds, and will be answered by a concrete list of the specific unfairnesses of the period. Or I'll note - even on this forum - the hardships caused by what appears to me to be clear-cut systems failure, and say so, and be answered with a storm of "These people are abusing Us (or the workers or whatever)" from both sides. [If not with a dismissal as a member of a political faction, pure and simple.]

Is it because we're in an Atonement saeculum? Because we're in an early 4T? Or is it a thing of temperament?

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

So I've been trying to catch-up onthe MTBI to better understand JDW and his ideas of his APT. I found I was an INTJ.

What's very interesting to me(among MANY) is that apparently both Julius Caesar(whoops, it may be Augustus Caesar, checking right now) and Hannibal Barca were INTJs. Would that they had squared-off against one another; What an amazing "chess match" that would have been!(Yeah, I know; I characterized "War and Death" as a "chess match"!

(Update:
Crap! I don't know enough about Julius Caesar to know, but apparently it was Augustus that was an INTJ.......Nevermind.)

I've always been interested in how Hannibal Barca was able to get over the Alps into Italy. Pretty "out-of-the-box" thinking, huh?

Also, Neitzsche and Ayn Rand were apparently INTJs. Makes sense that their Ideas/Thoughts were mis-interpreted by Others that probably mis-interpret the Actions of some who claim to follow their beliefs incorrectly.

PoC67

PS: I bet Neil Peart from the rock band Rush is an INTJ.

Augustus was emperor of Rome around the birth of Jesus, I believe.

.....Speaking of Jesus....apparently I share mine with him, Gandi, Mother Terressa, Jimmy Stewart and Jimmy Carter. Nice list but something tells me these guys didnt take the test to confirm this.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

One thing I've noticed on some lists I'm on, when the subject turns to things tangentially political. I'll be giving a long historical overview of, say, why Silent men and women were often at odds, and will be answered by a concrete list of the specific unfairnesses of the period. Or I'll note - even on this forum - the hardships caused by what appears to me to be clear-cut systems failure, and say so, and be answered with a storm of "These people are abusing Us (or the workers or whatever)" from both sides. [If not with a dismissal as a member of a political faction, pure and simple.]

Is it because we're in an Atonement saeculum? Because we're in an early 4T? Or is it a thing of temperament?

I say a little bit of all of the above. I hope some more qualified can see and answer this.

I had a flash of inspiration today regarding political beliefs and whether one uses Fe (extroverted feeling), the FJs and TPs, or Fi (introverted feeling), the FPs and TJs. I was reading a book on the neuroscience of wisdom and the author quotes an economic psychologist who is also a Chicago School Libertarian mentioning the internal conflict between his research on why people make stupidly short-sighted decisions and the voice of Milton Friedman in his head saying "How dare you say one person's desires is better than another!"

For Fe users values are an externalized, social phenomenon; a property of a society as a whole rather than of individuals. For Fi users, on the other hand, values are an internalized and deeply personal phenomenon.

Why is this important? A lot of social and political theory on the Left, especially the Marxism-influenced Left, emphasizes the external societal source of people's values, and how those values work to stabilize the power structures of a society. For an Fe user this makes perfect sense. For an Fi user, on the other hand, it is a deeply insulting attack on his/her individuality and the intensely personal nature of their value system. The usual Fi response, say, as a Libertarian in a discussion with a Marxist about the position of workers in a Capitalist economy, would be something like "How dare you tell me where and when I am supposed to feel oppressed or not!" That is essentially the sentiment expressed by the voice of Friedman in the mind of the psychologist noted above.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

From an INTJ:
(In case you couldn't tell!)

One thing to consider is that a group of Individuals becomes a Society just by being together. The Individuals then create the Social Values from the bottom-up. That way the Social Values can change with the changing dynamic of the Individuals through time.

The opposite is Problematic. I know top-down Societal Values can have an effect on Individuals directly, or through molding a particular Environment, but it is still Problematic for Individual Freedom none-the-less.

Here's the BS line that drives me nuts.
"So what Individual Freedoms do you feel are being diminished"?

The Rat in a Cage is free to move-around the cage, right?
Is that Freedom?
Technically speaking: Yes!
But, "The Cage" matters.

Smashing Pumpkins:"Bullet w/Butterfly Wings!"
http://www.youtube.com/embed/918te_rMS88



I don't know about the "voice in the mind of Friedman". I'd say that the argument may revolve around Sustainability and Structure of the System, not necessarily around Individual Freedom. Could be both.

PoC67

PS: A Problematic System that allows for some relative Individual Rights is still Problematic and thus Problematic!
We're looking for the Means to allow the Ends to be what they will be whether Left/Right/Center.

Divine Providence, Dude! NOT Manifest Destiny!

Does that make "Sense"? or should I say: Can you "Feel" Me? A-ha!

I love the videos your supply to illustrate your points.

Originally Posted by princeofcats67

I know, I know. You're not a Milly; You're MillyX!!!!!!

PoC67

PS: "A Rat in a Cage" Baby!

Yes, proud cusper. It depends on my mood or day if I lean nomad or civic.

Lately I have been nomad...mostly because I have been working on a mix tape (on CD, not itunes) of 90's songs.