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Thread: MBTI - Page 63







Post#1551 at 05-15-2012 05:21 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Introverts aren't necessarily shy -- Ronald Reagan was an Introvert. They do need to be alone to recharge their batteries. Obama's periods of solitude and what I gather from his book "Dreams of My Father" indicate to me an Introvert.

However, since I don't know Obama and I'm not an MBTI expert, I could be way off base.
Reagan had an Fi vibe to me. He was more reserved than Obama is. I have read that ENTP's need recharging more than any of the other extraverts. I have worked with many INT's and none of them light up a crowd like Obama. I remember trying to do a video for a project and with each take I would attempt to inject warmth or enthusiasm. It always seemed like I succeeded until I watched it. I only managed to look constipated. If Obama is INTP, I want what he is on ...







Post#1552 at 05-15-2012 08:51 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
You see Obama as a feeler? He is pure T -- "No Drama Bama"! (At least, that's how I see it)
I think Obama is an ENFJ. Having Fe with N, he is a "relational" person. He can deal with facts very well when he wants and needs to, but he thrives on possibilities involving relations with people.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1553 at 05-15-2012 09:09 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Jung was a tremendous psychologist and theorist, a great mind. His great ideas include synchronicity, the collective unconscious, the anima and animus, and his work with dreams that elevated it out of the dingy Freudian realms. He studied occult and esoteric philosophy and it influenced his work.

But I don't see much difference between his psychological types (another of his great ideas) and how they are used in MBTI. MBTI is all based on Jung's ideas. Myers and Briggs took the description of the types and faithfully developed the test to elucidate them. There is no question of persona vs. psyche in regards to MBTI vs. Jung that I can see. Maybe you can tell me what you see Odin a bit more.

(and he was certainly INTP by the time he came up with his Types-- as purely an N activity as you can get-- as the commentator Odin quoted pointed out)

What I see are misinterpretations, coming from both Jung and Myers-Briggs and all the commentators and psychologists who use them. It doesn't matter whether these misinterpretations are from Jung himself or from Myers-Briggs and their practitioners. If they are from Jung, that does not make them more psychological; they are still wrong (such as the idea that feelings are about values).

First, there is a tendency to treat the functions like they were chemical or mathematical formulas, and use them that way in a system. But they are not like that. They are like colors or tones; parts of a whole like members of a symphony orchestra, not separate parts of a machine. Fe and Ti and so forth are not elements of a system. The functions are just different shades of the same thing: the soul or conscious being of the individual (which itself is part of the larger collective soul). All the hierarchies of dominant and auxiliary and recessive functions are invalid, therefore. Introverted people don't act from a dominant function hidden in an introverted way, then turn to an auxiliary function to project into the world extraverted. That is a nice model, but I think it's just a fun fantasy. If someone is introverted, they are usually introverted in all their functions, and extraverted less often in all their functions. Which functions are dominant and which recessive are indicated by the scores on the test. Making human psychology into an elaborate system with separate parts like a machine is invalid, however fun and popular it may be.

But that doesn't change the essential correctness of the description of the functions (NSTF) and energy modes (EIJP) themselves, and the MBTI reflects them perfectly well in my opinion. If you want to know what the functions represent in themselves, just take a look at the MBTI test questions. There is a dominant/submissive relationship between T and F, and between N and S, I grant that, but coupling that with extraverted and introverted as separate parts is where I think the system goes off track.

I already mentioned that the systemizers do the same sort of thing with J and P as if it could determine dominant function, rather than just indicate an energy mode or lifestyle in itself. Then from Jung they take the also-mistaken idea that N and S are "irrational" perceiving functions and T and F are "rational" judging functions. I don't buy that either. All the functions are ways to receive and process information. We make decisions using our J mode, on the basis of info supplied by all 4 functions, or any one of them. There is no basis to say two of them are perceiving functions and two are judging functions, especially when the actual questions on MBTI for J and P have nothing to do with those functions, but are about whether you are ordered and scheduled or open-ended and exploratory. Any of the functions can operate in either way, so there's no basis for calling them one or the other. Again, they use this idea to develop the hierarchy of dominant and recessive functions like pieces of a machine; I say it is bogus.
Jung's position was that the conscious "ego-systonic" functions match one's I-E attitude while the unconscious, repressed "ego-dystonic" functions were of the opposite attitude.

So, according to Jung, my functions are Si - Ti | Fe - Ne
When I was a teen they were Si | Te - Fe - Ne
When I am 40 they will be Si - Ti - Fi | Ne

According to Jung we develop a coherent ego around puberty and develop our Dominant Function along with it. The other 3 functions are unconscious. As we get older, ideally, we start integrating the 2 functions that do not oppose the dominant function into our ego.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1554 at 05-15-2012 10:19 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Jungian functions and MBTI types are part of a whole. There is generation, upbringing, diet, culture, experiences, education, hormones, etc. There are 16 personality types that show up in billions of variations. I do believe that MBTI type is part of a system. I see generations and 4T information the same way. In MBTI you have 4 direct functions in a hierarchy. In theory, someone could have two extraverted perceiving functions as dominant functions, but that would probably not be a very well-functioning individual. I have a theory that some mental illness is based on the premise that cognitive functions are out of order. A TiFiNiSi person would be essentially comatose. An NeSeFeTe person would have very few friends. So, there are some necessary rules. I don't know that we have to be limited to those in MBTI, but that system seems to be withstanding the test of time so far ...
I think the test does stand the test of time, and the idea of functions do, and so I think it doesn't matter if the rest of it does or not. People have convinced themselves it is valid, but it makes no difference if it is or not. The important uses of the system and the test are in determining which functions and energy modes are preferred, and much can be gained from this in steering people toward what they prefer in life. The hierarchy is an irrelevant game, as I see it. An extravert is generally extraverted in all their functions, but introverted in them in the degree indicated by their score. I don't see how you can be an extraverted feeler and then an introverted thinker. If one is an extravert, that fact is bound to be shown in their full personality, not just in one way that they gather and process info.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1555 at 05-15-2012 10:28 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
Jung's position was that the conscious "ego-systonic" functions match one's I-E attitude while the unconscious, repressed "ego-dystonic" functions were of the opposite attitude.

So, according to Jung, my functions are Si - Ti | Fe - Ne
When I was a teen they were Si | Te - Fe - Ne
When I am 40 they will be Si - Ti - Fi | Ne

According to Jung we develop a coherent ego around puberty and develop our Dominant Function along with it. The other 3 functions are unconscious. As we get older, ideally, we start integrating the 2 functions that do not oppose the dominant function into our ego.
That would be quite different from how the theory is usually explained, with the auxiliary function always being the opposite attitude (I or E) from the dominant, and so on alternating down the line.

In my case I don't see how, as an introvert thinker, "repressed" feeling can be called "extravert" if it is repressed.

Also, for those with tight scores (like myself on T/F), it would seem neither one would be either repressed ego-dystonic or expressed ego-systonic, but perhaps both would be half and half.

I would tend to always interject some common sense into these systems. There is no way any of our functions can really be called "repressed." We all think, sense, feel, intuit. It's just that some people are stronger and others weaker in these areas, depending on the person, at least in what we tend to rely on. Most of us have repressed experiences in our subconscious, to varying degrees. They are not functions, but difficult or painful experiences we have not integrated or faced up to.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 05-15-2012 at 10:33 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1556 at 05-15-2012 10:52 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
That would be quite different from how the theory is usually explained, with the auxiliary function always being the opposite attitude (I or E) from the dominant, and so on alternating down the line.

In my case I don't see how, as an introvert thinker, "repressed" feeling can be called "extravert" if it is repressed.

Also, for those with tight scores (like myself on T/F), it would seem neither one would be either repressed ego-dystonic or expressed ego-systonic, but perhaps both would be half and half.
When you just take INTP (most familiar to me), there is TiNeSiFe. The judgement function is intraverted. In MBTI, the auxilliary perceiving function should be intraverted to have an interface with the outside world. In a TiNi heirarchy, where would information come from? At some point you have to go outside your own brain for information.

I interpret 'repressed' to mean 'subordinate'. Ne in the dominant role is very different than Ne that is subordinate to Ti. In my case, Ti pretty much stomps on Ne. I accumulate quite a bit of information that goes right in the Ti mangler.

I do agree with you that the MBTI is limiting. There are other models out there, but I have not found one that works quite as well.







Post#1557 at 05-15-2012 11:24 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
When you just take INTP (most familiar to me), there is TiNeSiFe. The judgement function is intraverted. In MBTI, the auxilliary perceiving function should be intraverted to have an interface with the outside world. In a TiNi heirarchy, where would information come from? At some point you have to go outside your own brain for information.

I interpret 'repressed' to mean 'subordinate'. Ne in the dominant role is very different than Ne that is subordinate to Ti. In my case, Ti pretty much stomps on Ne. I accumulate quite a bit of information that goes right in the Ti mangler.

I do agree with you that the MBTI is limiting. There are other models out there, but I have not found one that works quite as well.
Sure, it's a good system. It is a bit rigid, and not in accord with our experience very well in its details (the hierarchy of functions, calling the T function Ti or Te, etc.). I just prefer to call T, T, and not add the i or e. It makes no sense to me.

Answering your first question, I just don't think drawing those lines is necessary. Information always comes from all our functions. Introversion just means you prefer to be alone more often to recharge your energies. When I am thus "introverted," I still (as an INTP type) use my intuition (which is actually my strongest function according to my score, at least relative to its opposite) to consider possibilities and see generalities and archetypes. I also still use my senses; they work just fine; at least as fine as any other time. Probably more so, since when I'm alone I am more sensitive. After all, I am able to see my computer and type this, am I not? And I feel things too.

And then, I enjoy meeting people quite a bit, even though I am introverted. Hopefully all my functions are available to me then, and more so as I learn to pay attention to myself as well as be involved in all the hooks people are trying to throw around me while I am "out there" with people-- or see the hooks I might be trying to throw around others.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1558 at 05-18-2012 03:06 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
There are other models out there, but I have not found one that works quite as well.
Astrology is by far the best such personality model or system that there is, and always will remain so.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1559 at 06-25-2012 07:12 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Astrology is by far the best such personality model or system that there is, and always will remain so.
What proof is there for the above statement?
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1560 at 06-25-2012 07:26 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
What proof is there for the above statement?
Mainly just my and others' experience with it. My challenge to you and Aramea is to try it. Most other personality models are, in fact, based on astrology. That fact is one basis for my statement. It underlies most other theories; it is the first and most venerable such theory. It also is the most complex; it leaves nothing out, unlike other theories. A personality theory like MBTI, Enneagram, astrology or generation theory is hard to "prove;" it's a matter of working with it, seeing it in action, and people finding it satisfies their needs. Most research today is suspect; science today does not do serious research on astrology. Most of what research I have done is, as you know, about predictions of world events. That was for my book. I have some stats that show it works beyond the probability of chance. I have my own prediction-making history. On the other hand, that is not about personality or psychology. I predicted what would be in my own chart before I looked it up. That was enough to convince me. I was astounded. (You can't try that one now, since you already know your chart.) Since then, in the personal field at least, I have concentrated on learning and practicing it rather than trying to put together empirical proof studies. Some people do so, but with mixed results. Some research I have read or heard of says astrology works, and some does not.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 06-25-2012 at 07:29 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1561 at 06-25-2012 07:56 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Mainly just my and others' experience with it. My challenge to you and Aramea is to try it. Most other personality models are, in fact, based on astrology. That fact is one basis for my statement. It underlies most other theories; it is the first and most venerable such theory. It also is the most complex; it leaves nothing out, unlike other theories. A personality theory like MBTI, Enneagram, astrology or generation theory is hard to "prove;" it's a matter of working with it, seeing it in action, and people finding it satisfies their needs. Most research today is suspect; science today does not do serious research on astrology. Most of what research I have done is, as you know, about predictions of world events. That was for my book. I have some stats that show it works beyond the probability of chance. I have my own prediction-making history. On the other hand, that is not about personality or psychology. I predicted what would be in my own chart before I looked it up. That was enough to convince me. I was astounded. (You can't try that one now, since you already know your chart.) Since then, in the personal field at least, I have concentrated on learning and practicing it rather than trying to put together empirical proof studies. Some people do so, but with mixed results. Some research I have read or heard of says astrology works, and some does not.
You have my horoscope, but the time of birth I gave you then was wrong, I thought I was born in the morning, but, after asking my mom she told me as was born at 6:45 PM. That makes me a Libra Rising, which does not fit me at all.

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1562 at 06-26-2012 12:24 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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I think this is the 3rd chart you've given me. I'd think, maybe you don't really know your birth time.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1563 at 06-26-2012 12:51 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I think this is the 3rd chart you've given me. I'd think, maybe you don't really know your birth time.
My mom told me I was born during Wheel of Fortune. Which was then and now on between 6:30 and 7:00 PM.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1564 at 06-26-2012 12:58 AM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
I think this is the 3rd chart you've given me. I'd think, maybe you don't really know your birth time.
OK, I'm game.
and
Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Mainly just my and others' experience with it. My challenge to you and Aramea is to try it. Most other personality models are, in fact, based on astrology. That fact is one basis for my statement. It underlies most other theories; it is the first and most venerable such theory. It also is the most complex; it leaves nothing out, unlike other theories. A personality theory like MBTI, Enneagram, astrology or generation theory is hard to "prove;" it's a matter of working with it, seeing it in action, and people finding it satisfies their needs. Most research today is suspect; science today does not do serious research on astrology. Most of what research I have done is, as you know, about predictions of world events. That was for my book. I have some stats that show it works beyond the probability of chance. I have my own prediction-making history. On the other hand, that is not about personality or psychology. I predicted what would be in my own chart before I looked it up. That was enough to convince me. I was astounded. (You can't try that one now, since you already know your chart.) Since then, in the personal field at least, I have concentrated on learning and practicing it rather than trying to put together empirical proof studies. Some people do so, but with mixed results. Some research I have read or heard of says astrology works, and some does not.



Borrn in the house of the rising sun?
Last edited by Ragnarök_62; 06-26-2012 at 06:35 PM.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1565 at 06-26-2012 03:43 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Hardy har har
Eric and the boys sing to the Sun rising in the first house..
Another one on my top 400...
but you know of course who wrote that song?
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1566 at 06-26-2012 06:52 PM by Ragnarök_62 [at Oklahoma joined Nov 2006 #posts 5,511]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Hardy har har
Eric and the boys sing to the Sun rising in the first house..
Another one on my top 400...
Really? I was referring to my chart. (You should be proud that I managed to update it since it "expired". That was not nice of astro. So
1. Save file to computer.
2. Upload to my photobuck account.
3. Do all sorts of stuff wrt BBCode until it worked. Copy/paste left a mess of random ascii characters. Copy paste does not work all of the time...

but you know of course who wrote that song?
Teh Google sez "traditional, unknown". There's another song that my cousins always had on. I was young, but I'd love to know the song name. All I know is it has lyrics with "with my left hand ..... and ? on my right". I do know it was played in the 1960's.
MBTI step II type : Expressive INTP

There's an annual contest at Bond University, Australia, calling for the most appropriate definition of a contemporary term:
The winning student wrote:

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and promoted by mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end."







Post#1567 at 06-27-2012 04:44 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
Teh Google sez "traditional, unknown". ...
Bob Dylan. I don't know about the other song.

Singing to YOUR Sun rising in the first house, I meant to say.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 06-27-2012 at 04:48 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1568 at 07-02-2012 09:00 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
Mainly just my and others' experience with it. My challenge to you and Aramea is to try it. Most other personality models are, in fact, based on astrology. That fact is one basis for my statement. It underlies most other theories; it is the first and most venerable such theory. It also is the most complex; it leaves nothing out, unlike other theories. A personality theory like MBTI, Enneagram, astrology or generation theory is hard to "prove;" it's a matter of working with it, seeing it in action, and people finding it satisfies their needs. Most research today is suspect; science today does not do serious research on astrology. Most of what research I have done is, as you know, about predictions of world events. That was for my book. I have some stats that show it works beyond the probability of chance. I have my own prediction-making history. On the other hand, that is not about personality or psychology. I predicted what would be in my own chart before I looked it up. That was enough to convince me. I was astounded. (You can't try that one now, since you already know your chart.) Since then, in the personal field at least, I have concentrated on learning and practicing it rather than trying to put together empirical proof studies. Some people do so, but with mixed results. Some research I have read or heard of says astrology works, and some does not.
Eric, I would be happy to try it. What do I need to do? I guess first thing would be dig up my birth certificate.

I can think of a number of "ways" that Astrology could manifest. Anyone see the "Through the Wormhole" episode that asks "Is the Universe Alive?" If the Universe is viewed as an entity, it isn't too difficult to grasp a "clockwork" type order of things. It also isn't too much of a stretch to conclude that it has intelligence and knowledge of the happenings in its internal "organs". Geeze, my inner dork is coming out, LOL.







Post#1569 at 07-02-2012 09:11 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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I'm reading a biography of Einstein, and I've come to a rather shocking realization, Einstein was an EXTRAVERT!

And a couple pages after my realization, the author then explicit contrasts his "Jovial, care-free extraversion" with the "melancholic" nature of his first wife!

More proof that Keirsey, who typed him as INTP, is an idiot.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1570 at 07-02-2012 09:26 PM by Aramea [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 743]
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Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
I'm reading a biography of Einstein, and I've come to a rather shocking realization, Einstein was an EXTRAVERT!

And a couple pages after my realization, the author then explicit contrasts his "Jovial, care-free extraversion" with the "melancholic" nature of his first wife!

More proof that Keirsey, who typed him as INTP, is an idiot.
It is possible, of course. Do remember that INTP's can fake extraversion if they are in a comfortable setting. I have an ENFP friend that can drag me out of my shell (and get me in a LOT of trouble) in social settings. It is a tag-team arrangement that provides charisma (ENFP) and weird ideas (INTP) as a package. Years ago, when we were seen apart, people were generally disappointed that we weren't together. It was as if people saw us as one person.







Post#1571 at 07-03-2012 11:42 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Aramea View Post
Eric, I would be happy to try it. What do I need to do? I guess first thing would be dig up my birth certificate.
Yes, and then read up on the meanings of the signs and planets and aspects. Don't have your chart done yet, or do it yourself yet. I didn't have to read a lot; just enough to get a basic impression. I mostly started just be picking a book off the shelf at a department store, reading about the planets, then looking in the back where it had an ephemeris-- a listing of where the planets were. Every time I thought to myself, I must have this planet in this sign, I was right when I looked it up. Then I learned about what rising signs represent (still ignorant of what that means astronomically), and correctly guessed which sign and planet would be rising in my chart.
I can think of a number of "ways" that Astrology could manifest. Anyone see the "Through the Wormhole" episode that asks "Is the Universe Alive?" If the Universe is viewed as an entity, it isn't too difficult to grasp a "clockwork" type order of things. It also isn't too much of a stretch to conclude that it has intelligence and knowledge of the happenings in its internal "organs".
Yes, the latter; not the former.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 12-23-2012 at 10:58 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1572 at 07-21-2012 11:17 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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07-21-2012, 11:17 PM #1572
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Jung's protege Marie Von Franz on Ne and Ni:

Ne:
Intuition is therefore the capacity for intuiting that which is not yet visible, future possibilities or potentialities in the background of a situation. The Extraverted Intuitive type applies this to the outer world, and therefore will be very gifted and score very high in surmising the outer developments of the external situation in general. Such types are very often to be found among business people who have the courage to manufacture new inventions and put them on the market. You find them also among journalists and frequently among publishers. They are the people who know what will be popular next year and will do big business they will bring out something which is not yet the fashion but soon will be, and they are the first to put it on the market. You find them also among stockbrokers who, beyond the normal calculation based on the reading of newspapers and financial reports of commercial concerns, will have a certain something which tells them that a certain stock will go up, the market will be bullish, and they will make money through sensing the rise and fall of stocks. They will realize what is in the air and will be the first to speak of it...

Because intuition needs to look at things a little bit from afar or vaguely in order that it may function, you have to half shut your eyes and not look at facts too closely in order to get this hunch from the unconscious. If you look at things too precisely, you focus on facts and then hunch can't come through. That is why Intuitives tend to be unpunctual and vague, always rushing about a little bit too late, arriving too late, and not focusing on any fact too exactly. Another disadvantage of this main function is that the intuitive type generally sows but rarely reaps. For instance, if you start a new business, there are generally initial difficulties, the thing does not work yet; you have to wait for a certain time for it to begin to be profitable. The Intuitive, very often, tragically, does not wait long enough; he starts the business, but that is enough for him, so he resells it and loses on it, but the next owner makes a lot of money out of the same business. The intuitive does not reap what he has sown. he is always the one who invents, but who in the end gets nothing out of it if he overdoes his main function, for he is, as it were, rushing through things and incapable of waiting till what he has sown comes out of the soil and he can gather the fruit. If he is more balanced and can wait a little while, and if he does not dissociate completely by identifying with his main function, then he is a person who can stir up new things in all the corners of the world...

...He tends to lose himself in the object. You find such people, for instance, following in the trail of creative people, promoting the creativity of others, absolutely losing their own possibilities in the other. This is especially the case with publishers and art dealers and such people who admire the creative artist and try promote his work, without realizing that they lose themselves in the object, in the other person, and forget about themselves. Inferior sensation, like all inferior functions, is in such people, slow, heavy, and loaded with emotion and completely - because introverted - turned away from the outer world and its affairs.
Ni:
The Introverted Intuitive type has the same capacity as the extraverted intuitive for smelling out the future, having the right guess or the right hunch about the not yet seen future possibilities of the situation, but his intuition is turned within, and therefore you can say that he is primarily the type of the religious prophet, of the seer. On a primitive level he is the shaman who knows what the gods and the ghosts and ancestral spirits are planning and who conveys that to the tribe. In psychological language we should say that he knows about the slow processes which go on in the collective unconscious, the archetypal changes which take places in the unconscious and he conveys that to society. The prophets of the Old Testament, were people who, while the people of Israel were happily asleep -- as people always are -- from time to time told them what Yahweh's real intentions were, so to speak, and what He was doing just now, and what He wanted his people to do, which the people generally did not enjoy hearing.

Many introverted intuitives are to be found among artists and poets. They generally are the artists of the type which produces very archetypal and fantastic material, as in Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra or in Gustav Meyrinck's The Golem and Kubin's The Other Side. This kind of visionary art, as one could call it, is generally only understood by later generations as a realization of what was going on in the collective unconscious at the time. The inferior sensation of this type also has difficulties in noticing the needs of the body, or being very uncontrolled about it. You know that Swedenborg even had a vision in which God Himself told him he should not eat so much! He ate, naturally, without the slightest self-discipline and with complete unawareness. Swedenborg was a typical introverted intuitive, the prophet or seer type, and he was coarse and uninhibited and impossible about overeating, and so once he had a vision of God telling him that he should stop that! The Introverted Intuitive also suffers, as the Extraverted Intuitive does, from a tremendous vagueness wehre facts are concerned.

Introverted Intuitives are sometimes so completely unaware of outer facts that their reports about things have to be treated with the greatest care, for though they do not lie consciously, they can tell the most appalling stories, simply because they do not notice what is right under their noses. I very often distrust ghost reports, for instance, and reports about parapsychological phenomena, for those reasons. Introverted intuitives are very much interested in such fields, but because of their absolute weakness in observing facts and lack of concentration on outer facts, they can tell you the most appalling nonsense and swear it is true, simply because they have not noticed what was going on.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1573 at 07-21-2012 11:28 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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07-21-2012, 11:28 PM #1573
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Von Franz on Se-Doms and their relationship with their inferior Ni:

The Extraverted Sensation type is the best photographic apparatus, as it were. He can quickly and objectively relate to outer facts, which is why you find this type among the good mountaineers, engineers, business people, and so on, all of whom have a wide and accurate awareness of outer reality in all its differentiations. This type will remark on the texture of things -- whether silk or wool -- for he will have feeling for the material; thus aesthetical good taste is generally also present. Jung says that such people very often give an outer impression of being rather soulless. You may all have met such a soulless engineer type, where one has the feeling that the man is absolutely dedicated to engines and their oils and so on and sees everything from that angle. He produces no feeling and does not seem to think much either, and intuition is completely lacking, for that is for him just the realm of crazy fantasy. The Extraverted Sensation type calls everything approaching intuition mad fantasy, completely idiotic imagination, and something that has nothing to do with reality. He can even dislike thought, for if he is very one-sided, he will call that always getting into the abstract instead of keeping with the facts...

...Everything which might have been a hunch or a guess, or anything intuitive, appears in a type where sensation is differentiated in an unpleasant form. That is, if this man had intuitions at all, they would be of a suspicious or grotesque kind. For example, he [ an Extraverted Sensation teacher of hers] in quite an amazing way ventured into graphology, and one day I brought him a letter written by my mother excusing me for not having been able to come to the course because I had the flu. He looked at the writing and said, "Did your mother write that?" I said yes, and he said, "Poor child!" He only sensed the negative! He was like that. He would get suspicious fits about his colleagues and the children in his class. You could see that he had some kind of dark intuition of something murky, for his intuition, being inferior, was like a dog sniffing in the garbage pails and such places -- he was interested in dirty linen. This inferior kind of intuition was often right, but sometimes completely wrong! Sometimes he just had persecution ideas -- dark suspicions without any foundation. A type who is so accurate on the factual level can suddenly get melancholy, suspicious premonitions, ideas of dark possibilities, and one does not know how these suddenly cropped up.

Now because he was an Extraverted Sensation type, his intuitions were more on an introverted level. That remark, "poor child," was by chance turend toward an outer object, namely to me and my mother's handwriting, but normally inferior intuition circles around the subjective position of the sensation type, very often in dark feelings or hunches or premonitions about illnesses which he might get or other misfortunes which might befall him. That means the inferior intuition is, in general, egocentric, it is turned toward the subject but with an egocentric quality to it, and it often has this kind of negative, depreciative attitude. If you get such people nicely drunk or very tired, or know them intimately so that they come out with their other side, then if they produce intuitions, they only produce the most amazing, weird, eerie ghost stories.

Another aspect of inferior intuition in an Extraverted Sensation type is a sudden attraction for Anthroposophy, Theosophy, or some other cocktail of Eastern metaphysics, generally of a most otherworldly and metaphysical type. Suddenly very realistic engineers and people who you would think are the most unlikely persons would join such a movement and with a completely uncritical mind get quite lost in it. That is because their inferior function has such an archaic character. On their writing desks, to your great amazement you will find mystical writings, but of a rather second-class quality. If you ask them if they read that, they will say that it is just nonsense but that it helps them to go to sleep -- that is when the main function still denies the inferior function! If, for example, you ask the Anthroposophists at Dornach who supplied the money for their buildings, you will find that it came from just such Extraverted Sensation peopled. As a whole, you can say that the American nation, for instance, has a very great number of Extraverted Sensation types, which is why on the other hand such strange movements flourish especially well in the United States, to a much greater extent than in Switzerland, for example. In Los Angeles, you can find practically every kind of fantastic sect, and you are told a host of unrealistic stories of a rather dubious character.

I remember analyzing such a type, and during the day, in the middle of another hour, I suddenly had a telephone call from him. The man was sobbing over the telephone and said he was overwhelmed: "It happened -- I cannot tell you, I am in danger!" Now, this was not a hysterical person, and he had no latent psychosis or anything of the kind, so you would never expect him to behave in this way. I was absolutely astonished and asked him if he would be able to go to the station and buy a ticket and come to Zurich -- he was living in another Swiss town...

...by the time he arrived he had snapped back into his superior sensation and brought me a basket of cherries, which we cheerfully ate together. I said "And now what?" But he could not even tell me! Because by getting to the station and buying the cherries, he had gotten back onto the upper level again. He had been attacked for a minute from the other level, and the only thing I got out of him was when he said "For a minute I knew what God was! It is as if I realized God! And it shook me so much that I thought I would go mad, and now it is gone again. I remember it, but I cannot convey it anymore, and I am no longer in it." There, via the inferior function, intuition, he suddenly had the whole collective unconscious and the Self, and everything. For a minute -- like a flash -- it all came up and completely shook the upper part of his personality, but he could not hold it. That was the first beginning of the coming up of inferior intuition, which shows its tremendous creative and positive, as well as its dangerous, aspect. Intuition has that quality of conveying a tremendous amount of meaningful contents simultaneously. You see the whole thing in one minute, in one second, and that had come up for a minute -- and then it went again. There he was, munching cherries, back in his rather flat, ordinary, extraverted sensation world.

In genuine fantasies such as those of Edgar Allen Poe or the poet Gustav Meyrinck, intuition is established in its own right, for these fantasizes are highly symbolic and can be interpreted in a consistent way. But a sensation type always wants to concretize his intuitions in some way.
The bolded made me LOL.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1574 at 12-23-2012 10:32 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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12-23-2012, 10:32 PM #1574
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It is important to realize that people have different scores within their type, and that affects how "dominant functions" should be viewed.

People make statements about me or other people who post here. Although that is invalid, People might be wise to keep this in mind when they do.

If I am INTP or INFP, that supposedly means that I have a dominant introverted J function and an extraverted auxiliary P function. That would be Ti/Ne and Fi/Ne.

For ISTP and ISFP, that would be Ti/Se and Fi/Se

If someone is ISTJ or INTJ, they have a dominant introverted P function, and an extraverted auxiliary J function. That would be Si/Te and Ni/Te

So with ISFJ and INFJ, that would be Si/Fe and Ni/Fe

The point is, consideration needs to be given to the closeness of the score. For example, in my case, since my T/F score is almost equal, or +1 T, then it is both T and F that are dominant and introverted. My N score is strong, so my N score is extraverted. I take that to mean that I use thinking and feeling in my inner council chamber, but look outward for my interest in designing the world (N) and finding patterns in it. So I am T-F/i and Ne. The supposed weakest function then is also T-F.

It would seem that it is T that usually dominates my own inner council or "general," but I also want to have a strong presence of F there.

I think people might forget that F-feeling is not emotion. Emotions are acting out our impulses and reactions to pleasure and pain, fears and joys, insecurities, etc. If I express emotions in my posts, that has little to do with my type, but just with how I deal with or express my emotions. Feeling is a type of knowing; it is tuning into people and yourself, and having empathy and insight directly from the heart, an intelligent organ (or chakra); or using the right-side of the brain more than the left. If someone outwardly expresses emotion, that does not mean they are a Feeling type. And if you disagree with what a person thinks, that does not mean they are not a Thinking type either.

Fe is not outwardly emotional; Fe is outwardly-directed Feeling. Feeling is about being gentle and interested in people, according to MBTI. If one is strongly F, (s)he wants to be considerate of others' feelings and is interested in social harmony, rather than in being frank and honest about what you think even if it might offend. It is also said to be about "values," but it really isn't that, according to the actual MBTI questions, even if Jung and Myers/Briggs say that it is. I agree with the MBTI questions on that. Values belong to intuition, because they are general concepts and principles. As feeling, "values" are the feeling of what is valuable to us. In Feeling, the concerns and needs of people or the beauty of life are experienced and appreciated; but making them into general principles of "right and wrong" comes under iNtuition, and it might also be partly J-Judging or T-Thinking. What is often considered or called "psychic" or "intuitive" is usually also really Feeling, not iNtuition.

Marshall Rosenberg has pointed out the great need we have to separate out our actual feelings from our "judgements" of right and wrong, good and evil.

Personally, I don't agree with the ranked functions and alternating i and e scheme, and I don't even think that the 4 functions are tied to J and P at all. I see J and P as a separate scale, equally important to the others. Partly because I don't believe in it, I find it difficult to do the calculations for the ranked-functions. Others seem to be able to rattle them off easily; maybe because they don't believe in MBTI and aren't coordinating the rankings with it, I don't know. But it seems to me the scheme is overly systematic and complicated compared to actual people. If you are an introvert, I think all your functions tend to be introverted, and so with extraverted. But I also keep the Jungian/MBTI schemes in mind.

Pure platonic-like reasoning about first principles, precepts, general patterns and "pie in the sky" ideals, conceiving designs and new ideas, and turning to higher sources of inner wisdom is N; finding causes and effects and what follows from what is T. J is the preference for order, sequence, acting on known principles, and making a decision.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 12-24-2012 at 07:55 PM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1575 at 09-23-2013 06:38 PM by Speed Gavroche [at joined May 2013 #posts 39]
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09-23-2013, 06:38 PM #1575
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I'm an ESTP, born in 1990.
1990 Millenial ESTP
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