ye gads! Justin, you make them sound like the Stepford Children... surely it's not THAT bad. Well, I hope not anyway. Yikes.


Jenny, I have thought a lot about whether a cusper who graduates a year or two (or more!?) early (or late) would tip over into the adjoining generation. My feeling is this could happen very easily. My 1960-born husband, who should have graduated in 1978, actually graduated in 1979, with 1961 cohorts, because his mother had not allowed him to start first grade until a year after he should have (she thought he wasn't ready). I've always thought he's more like an Xer than a Boomer, (though he *is* opinionated), and almost all his friends have been Xers rather than Boomers. He even did the earring and goatee thing several years back. A woman I know, born in 1962, graduated 2 years early with 1960 cohorts. Today she is a very fiery born-again Christian, and quite intolerant of others who do not share her beliefs. Yeah, sure, Xers can be "saved" too, but this is different. The woman has a very Boomerish personality in general. So I think Jenny is absolutely correct.

Jenny and Susan,

I totally agree with you, about the role that school year plays with Boom/X cuspers, in determining whether one develops Nomad or Prophet traits. I was born only one year away from the GB, and feel that grade placement had a huge impact on me as a result.

I started kindergarten in 1964 at age 4 and skipped over seventh grade in 1971, graduating high school with late 1957 and early 1958 cohorts. As early as eighth grade, I recognized how much of a mess my "peers" were making of the world I had to live in-- and chose not to be party to much of it. Needless to say, this responsible outlook on life was not appreciated by my classmates. My reaction to their predictable Boomer scorn was to distance myself from them mentally and emotionally, if not physically -- pretty much as a typical Xer would.

During my high school years, my friends were mostly away from school and two to three years younger-- Xers, who were fellow losers/outcasts from the popularity rat race foisted upon them by the Boomers. They looked up to me as their not-quite-fearless leader, a role I was used to playing as an eldest sibling.

Although I strongly identify with being a Boomer, as a group I don't especially care for them. My brother and sister, 75% of friends throughout my life, and probably 98% of the women that I've dated, have been early and mid-wave Xers. And virtually all the Boomers who have become my friends have been very Xer-like loners.

The jury is still out, though, on whether I have more Nomad or Prophet traits. I suppose that time will tell.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2001-08-01 18:26 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kevin Parker '59 on 2001-08-01 18:31 ]</font>

I dont know about that. I actually have always felt more comfortable than people my age than grade. I was supposed to enter kindergarten in 1984, but mom kept me back to 1985. But I could often tell people in my class of 98 that were a year younger than me, just by their vibe. There was a girl in our class born in 1982, but I dont think she fit in at all, everyone kind of treated her like some freak occurrence or something, and they were impatient with her immaturity. I definitely felt more comfortable with the 79 cohorts than the late 80 cohorts. I was born in a transitional time between the 70s and 80s where some of us have clear memories of a 70s vibe that gave way to the 80s, and others have no clue what Im talking about.
Most Xers around my age (77 and 78 cohorts, and some 80 cohorts) will tell you that the early 80s were very much like the 1970s.
In fact it is this very "70s vibe" that I believe distinguishes generations. Those that know the 70s vibe are GenXers. Those that have no memory of it are Millennials.
You guys get so wrapped up in traits. But its also alot about history. A generation leaves the station at the same time, Gen Xers are all children of that 60s and 70s vibe. I have alot more in common with a five year old in 1974 than one of 1994. Thats why I really believe in the way Strauss and Howe delineate generations.
They hit the nail right on its head.

I agree, Justin. That "70s vibe" seemed to linger on until the summer of '84, perhaps '85. In 84 there was the Olympics in LA, the economy was boomin again, and Reagan had his landslide. It was cool again to be clean-cut and conservative-looking in school.

All of a sudden the hair got short--as in not covering up your ears if you were a guy. Then Top Gun--_THE_ movie of the 1980s, came out, and it is safe to say the 70s were behind us.

I think it was the summer of 85. Hmm. Remember I was young man. In the summer of 1984 I went to Sesame Place (cute, right?)
I remember watching "Jump" by both The Pointer Sisters and Van Halen on MTV as well as "Im Still Standing" by Elton John. That was definitely still a very "70s" (awakening???) Time. What I also noticed thinking about that time, was prior to 1985, my parents and their friends would hang out alot more, party alot more together, do things together, but after 85 they all kind of got wrapped up in their own lives, fixing up houses, moving, focusing on careers. They became insulated, like little familial units, and lost touch with one another. I wonder if this drive for privacy and distrust of others/non willingness to share life with others is a symptom of an Unravelling, and I also wonder if the desire to be involved in the community, and do things with others for pleasure is a symptom of a awakening.
Like during an Awakening people tune in, and during an unraveling they drop out.
I guess they turned on right about 1984/5.

I heard that late boomers,who have silent generation parents relate more to generation x and that late boomers,who have G.I. generation parents relate more to boomers.

Robbie, if you would like to more about the "typical" children of Silent parents, you might want to check out this Web site:

http://www.babybusters.org

And the site has been "cleaned up" - the typos are gone, and the bulletin board and e-mail are now up and running.

I think that 13er/Millie cuspish children of first wave boomers often identify more with generation x than late wave boomers.
The politics and judgemental qualities of the first wave had alot to do with giving their children a sense of the awakening than if their parents were late wave boomers. Alot of countercultural type Boomers (primarily first wavers) made a lasting impression on their children in the late 70s and early 80s, and raised them differently than a later boomer would have raised theirs a little afterwards.

There was a piece in the San Francisco Chronicle on Sunday in which it is written that Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" was identified (presumably by Brokaw himself) as having been born "between 1910 and 1940" - which can also be interpreted as from 1911 through 1939, which just happens to be the birth years I'm using for the (combined) G.I. and Silent Generations on my Web site.

So it looks like I may not be alone in taking the 1901-10 cohorts out of the G.I. equation and saying the Boom began with those born in 1940.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anthony '58 on 2001-08-06 06:37 ]</font>

It appears that the major discrepancies in Gen X have arisen from the 60s wave and 70s wave having two different generations of parents. For the most part the 60s wave are the children of Silents, and the 70s wave are the children of Boomers. Perhaps this is why the two waves seem so different, maybe as different as the first GI raised Boomer wave and the second Silent raised Boomer wave.
Still S&H specified that generations were the products of two generations of parents, not one, so this fits into their theory.

On 2001-08-06 00:49, Anthony '58 wrote:
There was a piece in the San Francisco Chronicle on Sunday in which it is written that Tom Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" was identified (presumably by Brokaw himself) as having been born "between 1910 and 1940" -

These are the same dates used by the author of "Bowling Alone" for his "Long Civic Generation. Maybe it's the same fellow. Do you have a link to the online version of the Chronicle?

which can also be interpreted as from 1911 through 1939, which just happens to be the birth years I'm using for the (combined) G.I. and Silent Generations on my Web site.

Hmm. Methinks too short for two generations. I'm suspicious of any generation shorter than 18 years--and the upwaves and downwaves in birthrates you are found of using average just that length.

So it looks like I may not be alone in taking the 1901-10 cohorts out of the G.I. equation

You aren't, but I think that the author of "Bowling Alone" relied on the info that the pollsters had available and didn't cut it up any more critically than they did.

FWIW, and IMHO, you may not be alone, but you may not be right, either!

and saying the Boom began with those born in 1940.

I'm not convinced of that, either.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Vince Lamb '59 on 2001-08-06 22:45 ]</font>

Interesting couple page article in this week's U.S.News and World Report Magazine (dated August 13 but on newstands now) about generations. The sidebar asks readers which of the generations they fit in, and the choices given are: silent generation, baby boomers, generation jones, generation x, and generation y.

Looks like generation jones is getting some recognition in the media.

The important thing to remember about Generation Jones is that, if you read between the lines, what emerges is a Prophet cohort-group that has a few Nomad-like features (even though Jonathan Pontell does not use that terminology directly). My concept of Baby Busters is based on just the opposite - a Nomad cohort-group that has a few Prophet-like features. And this difference is more important than the difference in birth years (1954-65 for Jonesers vs. 1958-68 for Busters).


Lyrics to live by:
"Oh well, whatever, never mind"
(Kurt Cobain [1967-1994], "Smells Like Teen Spirit")


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anthony '58 on 2001-08-13 01:38 ]</font>

I think Generation Jones is a dumb concept.
My Boomer Aunts and Uncles (especially my aunt whos a 54 cohort and my uncle whos a 57 cohort) would never buy into that. These guys are boomers to the core, and dont even bring up Vietnam around you or youll get a very passionate history lesson.
On the opposite spectrum---according to Pontells numbers some of the most noteworthy GenXers are really Jonesers. Who is this guy, and why does he think that his book justifies a national movement toward reclassification. Hes just annoying and probably trying to make some money.
Anthony, I agree with your numbers more than I agree with his.

You must understand, Mr. Justin, that having finally come to that exhausting point of having nothing left to rebel against, that we would then rebel against ourselves.

Hence, I am not a Baby Boomer! I am not Baby Boomer! Don't trust anyone born before 1955 (or is it 1956, my birthdate)! Down with the establishment(and the 4T website)! Down with S&H! Down with...

Gosh, I'm tired.

To Anthony, When are you going to put a discussion message board on your web site,www.babybusters.org?

Robbie - there already is one! It's just not in the most obvious place (you can blame my "webmaster" for that!). To get there, after clicking on the "baby" on the home page, click on to "Links" on the table of contents page. On the bottom of that page it will say "enter the bulletin board." Just click onto that and whoop, there it is!

Justin, you can't say Generation Jones is a "dumb concept" since you have no point of reference. Being born in 1979, how could you know what it feels like to be born in 1958, or 1960, or hell, even 1964? Maybe the term has stuck for a reason: that all those people feel it in their bones that the term "baby boomer" does not really suit them, and never has. Mind you, I'm not giving Gen Jones the status of a full-fledged generation (which would mess up S&H's four-cycle theory pretty badly). I look at it as a sub-generation that straddles late Boomers and early Xers, but this does not make it less valid. Personally, I like Anthony's years better too. But I dislike the term "baby busters."

Ms. Brombacher attempts to correct Mr. Justin by saying, "Justin, you can't say Generation Jones is a "dumb concept" since you have no point of reference. Being born in 1979, how could you know what it feels like to be born in 1958, or 1960, or hell, even 1964?"

So "feeling" determines "generational boundaries, Ms. Brombacher? I think that Mr. Justin's observation that, "These guys are boomers to the core, and dont even bring up Vietnam around you or youll get a very passionate history lesson." was very telling. He observed that boundary line called Vietnam now etched in American psyche. He was not "feeling" anything, he was oberserving *real life* history in terms of those that nurtured him.

We, of the post-Woodstock era, Ms. Brombacher, need to *think* more about what this all meant to us than *feel* our way through the seeming morass of it.

But no! Let us continue to "feel it in their bones that the term 'baby boomer' does not really suit them, and never has. Mind you, I'm not giving Gen Jones the status of a full-fledged generation (which would mess up S&H's four-cycle theory pretty badly).look at it as a sub-generation that straddles late Boomers and early Xers, but this does not make it less valid."

Look, Mr. Justin was born in 1979, the year I got married to a woman I would later divorce. His was a generation forgotten in this terrible maze of USA "mid-life" cultural upheaval and blatant MEism. Please don't try to make youself "feel" better by detacthing yourself from responsibility from all this by wanting to demand a refund.

We're Baby Boomers! Post-war, wonderful children gone haywire!

Solutions please, not excuses.

>>Look, Mr. Justin was born in 1979, the year I got married to a woman I would later divorce. His was a generation forgotten in this terrible maze of USA "mid-life" cultural upheaval and blatant MEism.>>

You are so funny. My parents (unlike all my friends parents) are actually still together. Pretty astonishing huh? I am trying to think of all my childhoos friends and only a handful actually had parents that survived marriage beyond their childs tenth birthday.
That sux.
Everytime you address us as Mr and Ms., Mr MarC, I think of a tv show about a talking horse.
And Susan, since you rarely give me crap, I wasnt going after the idea of a subgroup, I was going after Jonathan Pontell.

>>Look, Mr. Justin was born in 1979, the year I got married to a woman I would later divorce. His was a generation forgotten in this terrible maze of USA "mid-life" cultural upheaval and blatant MEism.>>

You are so funny. My parents (unlike all my friends parents) are actually still together. Pretty astonishing huh? I am trying to think of all my childhoods friends and only a handful actually had parents that survived marriage beyond their childs tenth birthday.
That sux.
Everytime you address us as Mr and Ms., Mr MarC, I think of a tv show about a talking horse.
And Susan, since you rarely give me crap, I wasnt going after the idea of a subgroup, I was going after Jonathan Pontell.

Marc, it's about a lot more than just a "feeling" (although that alone should count for something). Read back in the archives on this thread and you'll see plenty of "evidence" as to why late-50s cohorts need a label separate from "boomer." (I can't list them here, as I have to go to work in about 5 minutes)
As far as Woodstock is concerned, I was far too young (11) for this to have been an influence in my life. For that matter, Vietnam was just a name I heard a lot about in the news. Geez, I was just a kid worrying about passing a math test, for goshsakes! JFK's assassination? I was 5, and the only thing I can remember is how my parents were acting all quiet and spooky for a few days after it happened. So if these are the "markers" that make me a Boomer, then maybe I'm not one.

Then again, wasn't it you who said that since we had run out of things to rebel against, then we now had to rebel against our own generation? Hence, "I am not a Baby Boomer! I am not a Baby Boomer! I am not a Baby Boomer!" There, I feel better now.

I thought that was a great post.

Justin, thanks...you rarely give me crap either. :smile:

Bear in mind that a Prophet can be defined as an idealistic and/or spiritually inclined individualist. So Jonesers, like the earlier Woodstock wave, may be deemed Prophets.