i do agree barbara im am the last of the last
i am super cuspish
my main point of determination is event location family and friends
they are all true xers
and since i identify with them as a group and being part of it and having a similar childhood etc then i strongly identify with the older group and then consider myself an Xer
had i been born a year or two younger and had younger siblings it would be entirely different

Thongs used to mean sandals? Geez!!

Only a few of the 1982 Millies remember Challenger, and so that has been used as a Marker separating Millies from Xers. Oklahoma City was certainly big, Columbine was bigger, but I think that E2K was very huge. I think it might've been Akin to the Cuban Missle Crisis for this generation.

This coming recession will certainly have an effect, as it will likely become severe as the nation enters Crisis. Another thing Millies will remember is Seattle 1999, Washington DC 2000, Genoa 2001, and the upcoming major protests at the end of September in DC. How this will affect Millies, I am not clear on.

I don't know if I qualify as a Joneser, being born in 1956, but for me, the defining moments as a kid were the MLK assassination, and the 1968 election, including the RFK assassination. Earlier, I was aware of the Civil Rights movement and saw it as evidence of continual progress (I expected poverty and starvation to be history by Y2K). After 1968, my world view was much more complicated.

I don't remember much about the JFK assassination except having a childlike idea that the President was the wisest man in the world and being confused that LBJ was obviously older (and presumably wiser) than JFK -- why was that? I remember more about the 1964 election -- LBJ standing for Civil Rights and Goldwater standing for war.

Ms. Genser writes, "I remember more about the 1964 election -- LBJ standing for Civil Rights and Goldwater standing for war."


Funny how things actually work out. The Civil Rights Act passed without a Democratic party majority--both Al Gore Sr. and Robert Byrd voted against it (meaning it got more GOP votes that Democrat votes). And, of course, we all know how LBJ used the phoney Gulf of Tonkin incident in incite the American people, and then like to run the resulting war from his living room in the White House.

Sometimes our perception of things can be decieving.

My memory of JFK is so scant that it barely qualifies as one. All I remember was a hushed silence in the house and everywhere else and my parents glued to the TV. Adults everywhere were acting sad and spooky. It was sort of scary. I suppose I must have known that the President had been shot, but at only 5 years of age, it had little or no meaning for me and therefore was not a defining moment. I guess I would have to say my Defining Moments were the Moon landing, and even Woodstock: yeah, I was too young to be there, but was terribly jealous of those who got to go!

For this little Joneser girl, the defining events of the 60's for me centered around the mid to late part of that decade. The Moon landing was major--among the all-time cool things for a kid to experience. Jonesers have had a lot of bad luck along the way, but we got real lucky on that one. Events of 1968 were major also(No surprise considering all that happened that year. BTW, many countries in Europe refer to who we call Baby Boomers as "68'ers" reflecting the crucial importance of that year). The assasinations of RFK and MLK were probably the most influential for me. The two events from earlier in the decade that remain most vivid as memories are the assasination of JFK and the Beatles first appearance on Ed Sullivan in Feb.'64. I was very young but I remember those events vividly.

THE defining Awakening moment for me was, and is, the Newark (N.J.) Riots of July 1967. There's something about seeing hundreds of wild-eyed, angry people burning Downtown (where your father works) to the ground -- live on Channel 4 -- that stays with you for the rest of your life. Prior to that event, my life was still pretty much a High-like experience. After the dust cleared, my childhood still retained some High-ish elements for perhaps three more years. However, one could tell that something was different, and definitely not quite right. For me, 1967 is when the Awakening truly began.

Other defining moments.....the following year brought, of course, the dual assasinations of RFK and MLK which devastated my parents and all of their friends. I can still remember the news program that tracked, town by town, the progress of RFK's funeral train as the body was brought back to Massachusetts from California. Though as an eight-year old I didn't fully understand the significance of these murders and other events such as the Vietnam War, I could certainly tell that Very Bad Things were happening, that somehow my formerly idyllic childhood world was spinning out of control.

In contrast, 1969 brought hope -- that as bad as the world seemed to be becoming, there was indeed hope for a brighter future. This hope came in the form of the Apollo 11 Moon Landing in July, and the first syndicated reruns of Star Trek in September.

As far as "defining moments" go, the first thing I can honestly say I "remember" was the two "Vietnam Moratorium" demonstrations that were held on October 15 and November 15, 1969 - and I do remember that some adults would intentionally leave their car headlights on in broad daylight during the time of these two demonstrations - but I can't even remember whether those who did leave their lights on were for the war or against it! While I do recall hearing the name Martin Luther King, I don't really remember anything about the riots that followed his assassination. In October 1968 I do recall hearing the name "Ocean Hill-Brownsville" (a neighborhood in Brooklyn) and knew that there was some kind of controversy about the public schools there, but I didn't have the vaguest idea of what the issues surrounding it were (only that the word "decentralization" kept coming up). Kent State I recall somewhat more vividly, and my take on it was when you were provoked, you retaliate or else you're a "wuss" (this is one of earliest lessons you learn in life if your ethnic heritage is Italian - and especially if it's Sicilian, as half of my family is). As I saw it, the "students" started it by throwing rocks, petrol bombs and bags of shit at the National Guardsman, whose position as red-blooded American males left them no choice but to respond in kind. Who was on the "left" or "right" politically just didn't function in my mind-set at the time. Also in 1970, I remember seeing on the news how construction workers would verbally taunt "hippies" and then beat them up if the latter answered back to them.

I never watched the Watergate hearings, and I don't recall my mother tuning into them much either. However, I do distinctly recall that Sunday night (in the fall of 1973) when Nixon went on national TV and tried to ban Christmas lights. And the scene of those Marine helicopters departing from the roof of the U.S. embassy in Saigon in 1975 is something I'll never forget ("Ford To [New York] City: Drop Dead" also stands out from that same year).

That about sums up this Buster's personal connection to the Awakening!

The first big events I can remember would be watching the news in the early 80s with my parents.
I remember slightly hearing about Grenada, but I definitely remember Live Aid and We are the World...
Then I guess Challenger in early 86 and watching the Iran Contra Hearings after school...watching olly North testify...
Hmm...Bombing Libya...I remember that
Pan Am 103 in third grade...
I remember glasnost perestroika, election 88
and pretty much everything that came after.
my first memory i can date is a ski trip i went on in early 1982

Since Anthony focused in on New York, I guess Id add Ed Koch being mayor, the Mets winning the World Series in 86 *which i believe also separates generations in new york*
Bernard Goetz the guy that shot five black teens on the NYC subway after they tried to rob him
Central Park Jogger, Zodiac Killer, A big trial where a man named Joel forgot his last name was convicted of beating his daughter amy to death...
I also remember early hip hop *run dmc fat boys beastie boy* and breakdancing graffiti cultre that was really big in the early 80s.
and winston Zedmore screaming I love this town at the end of Ghostbusters!

Mr. Rogers Neighborhood is coming to an end. What does everyone think of this?
http://www.msnbc.com/news/620264.asp

I'm not sure what is meant by defining moments. Is it your first memory, or the first memory kids your age remember together?

I don't know how anyone could forget Reagan getting shot. That was 1st or 2nd grade.

My very first memory of a famous event in the news was Three Mile Island for some reason. I thought we were all going to fry or glow or something.

What about the 1980 Olympics? The 1984 Olympics, as I remember it, was a must see.


I watched a lot tv. I loved the show Sha-na-na and the Dukes and Incredible Hulk. Lived for them. Seeing Salem's Lot for the very first time really freaked me out.

I remember all of the 80's stuff. Challenger, Iran Contra, Pan Am, AIDS, Drugs, Berlin Wall, Reagan's 2nd term, etc.

jessie...you can always count on me.
yeah.
i was under the impression that this was just world events...because baby boomers get all weird when they have to listen to Xers hum the knight rider theme song.
But add lots of early sci/fi stuff to this skull
Flah Gordon Dark Crystal Clash of the Titans Beastmaster Conaan Dungeons and Dragons
STAR WARS
my first memories are really of watching television in my basement with my brother
I can remember summer 84 really well
I remember that the Pointer Sisters and van halen both had a song called 'jump'
elton john had one called 'im still standing'
they played alot of juicy fruit commercials on tv
and this 7up commercial with this jamaican man in a white suit
I also remember V.
chalk that up to another scifi film that majorly screwed with me

Wow.

You all bowled me over with your memories of those generational defining moments, Joneser and Xr. Took me back to the little nooks and crannies in time, some of which I'd forgotten.

On August 26, Boomer Los Angeles Times columnist John Balzar wrote a provocative (to say the least!) column about "Greatest Generation" GIs. To view it, go to the following page:

http://www.losangelestimes.com/news/...news%2Dcolumns

Early shared memories:

-The Apollo-Soyuz test project, 1975. Saw it on television, and thought at age 4 that astronauts were cool.

-The Bicentennial. I was amazed by the fireworks. And there was this cute fire hydrant around the block that was painted like a colonial dude.

-Jaws. All my friends on the block got to see it and were scared out of their minds from it. I never saw it because it was "too violent."

-Star Wars. We did not see it during the hype in 1977, but in 1978, during a second round of releases. Some kids on the block i knew got to see it 10 times. Later i bought a long-playing record containing narration and dialogue highlights. I learned it by heart, all 30-40 minutes of it. One of my favorite lines was Han Solo yelling, "What the HELL are you DOING!," to which Leah replies, "Into the garbage, shoe fly boy!" One day I though i would try that line on my mother, not knowing that "What the hell are you doing?" was something you weren't supposed to say. Big mistake.

-Deep Purple's "Smoke on the water." I was around 6 at the time, and this 16-year old across thye street got an electric guitar. He was a real nutcase--loving to do crazy stuff like roller skating on the roof while lighting fireworks (yes at the SAME time). Anyway, he got an electric guitar and would crank up his amp in the garage to 11, playing that Smoke on the Water riff over and over.

-Streakers. There were a bunch of older kids on the block who would get drunk or high and run around naked in the middle of the night.

-Dirt Bikes. This was before they were yuppified and called "mountain bikes." We'd go out to this vacant lot, dig trails for them, put up ramps, do wheelies etc. Many a scraped knee was had.

-Evil Knieval. I remember seeing all his stunts on TV, and talking with friends about his injuries.

-Abba. They were ALWAYS on the radio, especially cranked up at the pool where i had my first swimming lessons (ages 3-9). Rather pleasant music, i thought. To this day I associate Abba with underwaterness.

-Battlestar Galactica, Star Trek reruns, and Buck Rogers. Battlestar Galactica rocked, but usually I had to sneak out into the converted garage-playroom to watch it because i had to be in bed at 8 o clock. STar Trek rocked. Buck Rogers, i thought, was a cheap and sleazy immitation of Battlestar.

-Knight Rider. Now THAT was awesome. I did not have any idea how cheezy it was until a couple of years later. But still, to this day, i talk to my car, refering to him is "Kit."

I remember my father voting for Ford and my mother voting for Carter.

I remember in 1980 how rotten and pessistic the general national mood was. To those of who you are too young to have experienced 1980, that year in my 30 year life is definitely the time when people felt most disgusted in their country, towards each other, and towards themselves. Everything and everyone seemed ugly to me and seemingly to everyone else. Maybe 1973 was worse, but back then it did not matter back then because, being 2, i was emperor of the universe (or so it seemed). But kids, take it from me. Times may seem bad now, but they are nothing compared to the 1979-1982 period of which '80 was the ugliest year I have ever seen.

Do I remember when the Challenger went down? Sure do. I can probably recant the whole day to you, minute, by minute.

Anthony, I had to cut n paste the whole LATimes article on GIGen, it's the first anti-article I have read that makes the case for debate, IMHO, and the Lockbox-temptation and all. So, bring it on, Tom Brokaw. Deserves more than just a link --

When It Was Good ...
It was very, very good, but when the 'Greatest Generation' was bad, it put itself first
John Balzar

August 26 2001

A friend cornered me and posed a challenge: "Listen," he said, "I'd like to see somebody try to tell the truth about this 'Greatest Generation' before it's too late."

I'll take the dare.

By "the truth," my friend meant a more expansive picture of America's World War II generation than the one-dimensional nostalgia produced these days by pop culture. Americans of the World War II generation are entering the last years of their lives and dying off, and a grateful nation is paying tribute to them in books, movies and magazines. They are glorified as the last Americans to sacrifice for this country, perhaps the last to pull together for the common good.

Along the way, though, we shouldn't forget that this generation also went on to perpetuate racism and segregation. We should remind ourselves that this was America's original full-entitlement generation, and then the generation to lead a backlash against entitlements for others. This is the generation that uprooted and dispersed itself around America after the war, turning its back on old family ties and redefining U.S. goals in terms of me-first, only to grow bitter when their children followed suit.

This is the generation that thwarted the aspirations of career women, taking them out of their wartime work shirts and putting them back in aprons and girdles. In the exuberant boom of the 1950s, this was a self-absorbed generation that gave little thought to preserving its open spaces, its clean air or pristine waters. Only a single significant national park was added to our registry in the 1950s, in the Virgin Islands.

I mean no disrespect for the deeds and the great sacrifices of this generation during war. I look at my own family. My mother lost her three brothers, two of them in bombers over Germany. My father entered the war early as a pilot for the Royal Canadian Air Force and flew off carriers for the U.S. Navy during the whole of the Pacific campaign. He was recalled to the Navy to fight in Korea and was disabled in the crash of his jet. War consumed 10 years of his life and led to his premature death.

I'm still a sucker for the glory of World War II. I went to Honolulu to hear taps played over the Arizona on the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor. I spent $200 that night buying drinks for old men whose feats brought me to tears. I have studied the brave history of that conflict. I've had the high honor to meet, awe-struck, some of its heroes.

But I also have seen the other side of this generation. Experts say that friction between generations is a normal pattern. But I know only the conflict between the generation of our World War II parents and us, their baby boomer children.

Veterans of World War II sent 8.8 million of us to a misguided war in Vietnam, but they were fainthearted and they failed to define a purpose that would rally the nation, as the nation had rallied for them. Later, I was blocked at the door of the VFW along with untold scores of others because these veterans of World War II didn't like our haircuts or our music or the alienation they bequeathed us.

Why bother revisiting these events? Because this craze for the "Greatest Generation" has us looking backward for our values, as if somehow the best of America was exemplified by the past. It isn't.

The contemporary idealization of black and Asian soldiers who fought in that war is a product of today's generation. Minorities back then were not treated so kindly by their fellow Americans. They had the door slammed in their faces, or worse. Across this land of the free, the "Greatest Generation" wrote into the covenants of the housing they built with GI-Bill money: whites only.

The World War II generation has taken its full measure of Social Security and built itself the system of Medicare, but it was not foresighted enough to bequeath its children the same. As they have grown older, these men and women of mid-20th-century America have displayed less and less of the selflessness of their wartime image. During their working years, they built great roads, schools and water projects, but in their retirement they voted against social investments of all kinds. They left cities in disrepair. At the end of their productive years, they pioneered a two-tier wage system so that sacrifice would be borne by younger workers.

The "Greatest Generation" is fading now. So as we celebrate them, yes, let's offer them a heartfelt salute. We owe them our freedom. But we also owe ourselves a reminder: We can do them better.

Sorry Barbara, but I'm fairly new to the wonderful world of computer technology. If I knew how to cut and paste that article I would have done so.

For the record, though, allow me to say that I think the article is calumnious, hypocritical and inflammatory - in short, just plain disgraceful!

Oops! Well, we just disagree, Anthony. I respect your opinion, though!

I would agree with Barbara. All generations have their bright and dark sides, and the GIs were certainly no different. Human beings, as individuals, have both negative and positive aspects to both their personalities, and life experiences.

Perhaps Anthony was so inflamed by Mr. Balzar's article because it speaks of a truth he cannot handle. We absolutely do owe the greatest generation -- that of my uncles who fought for this land -- our freedom. If it weren't for them, we would certainly be speaking German or Japanese now, and almost as certainly the events of the Holocaust would have been replayed in some way here in North America during the High.

However as a seventeen year old I worked for a title insurance company in supposedly "liberal" Southern California. I read personally those "conditions, covenants and restrictions" for whites-only, that were written into nearly every title document for new homes up until about 1960. This is not Anthony's calamitous, inflammatory, hypocritical propaganda-- this is the God's honest truth. He can (foolishly) deny this if he wishes to.

And the GIs most definitely did send thousands of Silents and Boomers to die in the jungles of Vietnam, without defining adequately defining any real sort of purpose that would have given their deaths meaning. Stop the Commies? Yeah, right. They failed bigtime -- because their GI leaders didn't give them the resources or guidance they needed to win. (A handful of baby nukes, for example, would have solved the Viet Cong problem swiftly and surely.) The bottom line is that our soldiers died for the people of Vietnam, who in the end didn't (and still don't) give a rat's ass about their sacrifice. They died for nothing.

Having said all this, I of course do not mean to let the Silent and Boomers of the hook for the societal destruction they have caused. They too have their dark side, but we cannot deny that the GIs had theirs as well, just because the latter saved us from Hitler and Tojo.

[Kevin:] And the GIs most definitely did send thousands of Silents and Boomers to die in the jungles of Vietnam, without defining adequately defining any real sort of purpose that would have given their deaths meaning. Stop the Commies? Yeah, right. They failed bigtime -- because their GI leaders didn't give them the resources or guidance they needed to win. (A handful of baby nukes, for example, would have solved the Viet Cong problem swiftly and surely.) The bottom line is that our soldiers died for the people of Vietnam, who in the end didn't (and still don't) give a rat's ass about their sacrifice. They died for nothing.

[Mike:] Vietnam is the last major war the U.S. fought. It occurred within living memory of many alive today. Yet as a people we are almost completely ignorant of that war. I suspect that most people here know how the Spanish-American War started (Remember the Maine!) How WW I started (Archduke Francis Ferdinand/unrestriced U-boat warfare), How WW II started (Blitzkrieg/Pearl Harbor) and Korea (North Korea invaded the South).

How many know how the Vietnam war started? Any Millies here learn about it in school, or don't they teach it?

For the cost of the 10-year-long American adventure in Southeast Asia, we could have bought each and every one of those VCs Cadillacs (or whatever they consider to be status symbols). Instead of bombing them back to the stone age, we could have converted them all to disciplined capitalists, and the whole monstrous endeavor could have been avoided.

Machiavelli says to deal with enemies two ways: conquer absolutely or "kill em with kindness." Either would have worked in Vietnam, and probably the latter could have worked better.

After all, one of Ho Chi Min's heroes WAS George Washington!

I agree with Kevin, and thought the article was very honest, perceptive, and unbiased.
Nothing--that's right, NOTHING--is all good or all evil. No matter how good something is, there is always a shadow, or how evil something is, always a light, no matter how faint. What exactly was it, Anthony, that you found so calamitous, hypocritical, and inflammatory? Just curious.

On Page 18 of this thread, Susan asked me, "As a teacher, what did you think stood out most about Jonesers, and how were you able to distinguish them from Woodstock era Boomers or from Xers?"

Sorry for overlooking that, Susan! And, I'll dare to insert the answer in the midst of the current debate and the posts of defining generational moments before it, because oddly enough as circumstance happens, these posts illustrate my answer (which is only my one opinion, of course).

You've earlier observed, correctly, I think, that the early-wave Boomers experienced the Awakening and that your Joneser generation only got to watch. I'll go further: the Xrs only got to hear second- or x-hand. Members of Jonesers and Xrs also got to experience the AFTERmath, as far as society and parenting (which I have previously posted, goes very much hand in hand).

So how does all of this relate to the kind of student a Joneser was? I would be able to tell you what you want to hear had I been a college professor, I think. Jonesers didn't jump out at me as different than their older Boomer cohorts in junior high. But because of the Awakening society bubbling all around by that time, you kids were more skeptical, more sophisticated, and I think more conflicted at an earlier age than the older Boomers.

I think your educational experience was lop-sided, too, generally speaking. Early Boomers were educated all the way through, for the most part, in the classical sense (if you have ever heard of educational philosopher E.D. Hirsch, he's long advocated a constant common "classical" body of knowledge with only additions, not subtractions; this is generically akin to Back to Basics, the 3 R's, rote learning teaches self-discipline and ability to conform, etc.). Many of you Jonesers were educated this way in the early years, but perhaps around your high school years things "got hip", educ. practices started changing (pass/fail, mini-courses, alternative theories in history, etc.). Of course, some schools resisted; this is just as a general trend. If this happened to you, it was fun at the time, but many feel cheated in retrospect.

I strongly suspect this made you different adults than early Boomers (and you HAVE sought out a different Joneser classification already), but I'll ask you HOW you are different. Only you can know, and show and tell.

The Xr shift was the one I noticed. Generally, they would not be taught under
the classical way, and I saw that generation in both junior and senior high. This caused quite a controversy in education and society, but I think we caused our own problem in teaching them from day one nonclassically (open classrooms, no grades, no one right answer, no criticism, big emphasis on self-esteem). The earliest educ. years up to abstract thought around puberty are the most important.

Of course my prejudice here is that I feel the classical way is the best. It is easier to self-educate as to book learning past this point if necessary. (And the plucky Xrs have shown they can self-educate no matter what, but theirs wasn't a conventional education).

As relates to feelings about the Awakening, Jonesers appear just as divided as early Boomers. But the difference is, I think, that while an early Boomer has little problem in the end breaking with his contextual (family, social) background to idealistically believe as he does, a Joneser is more tied to that context, it colors the belief (and often muddies it). That's because when people experience something first-hand, they are more confident, more visceral in that which they believe about and remember it. When you watched it, you also already saw the splintering of early Boomer belief (two sides). Therefore, as you mature into midlife, there will be a hardening of belief that was hard-won by you through analysis and self-doubt.

I think Jonesers may influence Xrs as to the Crisis agenda more than early Boomers. You share early-age skepticism and MAY also be the last Boomers to be heard (age longevity may prove me false, however, and then Heaven Help Us - it IS going to be a bumpy ride).

Changing channels, as to the final verdict on GIs, Anthony may well have the final answer. I'll be the first to admit my response is Silent, visceral and logical (to me), though whether it's correct is not at all clear.

So, Anthony, this hasn't been a gang-up on you, dear. Each of you, have faith in your beliefs and the courage to question them, too. You've your own battle scars to prove they are all extremely worthy.

I just thought I would add my two pennies in the muddy puddle with regards to Mr. John Balzar's take on the Greatest Generation.

[Balzar] We should remind ourselves that this was America's original full-entitlement generation, and then the generation to lead a backlash against entitlements for others...

[Lamb] They earned their entitlement, Mr. Balzar. Did you?

[Balzar] This is the generation that thwarted the aspirations of career women, taking them out of their wartime work shirts and putting them back in aprons and girdles.

[Lamb] Sorry, Mr. Balzar, but your "self-aborbed" bigotry concerning what you think women ought to be, and what they actually want at any given time in history, shows your complete ignorance of said history.

Try this, Mr. Balzar: Actually find yourself a real life G.I. "gal," "dish," or former "Rosie" and ask em what they wanted back then.

[Balzar] In the exuberant boom of the 1950s, this was a self-absorbed generation that gave little thought to preserving its open spaces, its clean air or pristine waters.

[Lamb] Did the cliffs of Point Du Hoc define this notion of "self-absorbed" for you, Mr. Balzar? Maybe it was the killing grounds of Tarawa, Saipan, New Guinea or Iwo? Or perhaps it was Sugerloaf Hill in Okinawa?

Oh well, whatever. Comparitively speaking, Mr. Balzar, we post-war children redefined the entire notion of what "self-absorbed" really is.

Didn't we, Mr. Balzar?

Yes, Mr. Balzar, no generation is perfect. But at least try to frame your argument within some reasonable notion of reality.