Quoting from "Generations," page 298:

"The Boom Awakening ... The awakening ebbed sharply in the late 1970s with the growing social and economic pessimism that Boomer Patrick Caddell labeled 'malaise,' and it ended altogether in 1980 ... Reagan's election (and his endorsement by the Boom) marked the acceptance of rising-adult social roles by a no-longer-youthful cadre of 1960s kids."

On this basis the Unraveling can literally be dated:

November 4, 1980 - September 11, 2001

its a little ridiculous of us to really be discussing this like this
I recall that Ronnie wasn't the most popular president in those first few years. And it wasnt until he got rid of Al Haig in 82 that he starte to really come into his own.
But by this accord it could be fair to trace the awakening back to 1960, the time of the first big demonstration at berkeley.
But its all pretty much nonsense.
No matter what the dates just dont work out properly, and they shouldnt. Just as generations are fairly arbitrary, it would be very human and likewise arrogant to think that this daily routine of sun down sun up can be calculated into predicting the tides of peoples. It would also be pretty arrogant to think that you could trim a birthyear down to a day Whether that day be Dec 31 or Jan 1.
The truth is i see this whole concept of generation more like a big colour wheel, and slowly the blues turn into the greens which turn into the yellows which turn into the reds which turn into....
Was it at armadillo green that the new stage started or.....
but we know that its arranged into separate colours at certain points.
So maybe the culprits in our squabbling have really been strauss and howe, by leading us into believing that these things could be accurately pinpointed like that.

I always thought the Unravelling started in 82 or 83 but that could have been only a reflection of what I saw going on in the NYC area back then; sort of like a regional difference or something.

The boundary I'm most interested in right now is that between Millennials and New Adaptive. My daughter was born in 1997 - is she Millennial or new adaptive? I talked with her last night about the attacks and she said she felt sad and wanted to know why someone would drive a plane into buildings - she thought it was an accident. I said, no, it was on purpose, and then why Mom? I struggled to provide her with an explanation that would be on her level. But I did think it was important to talk with her about the attacks since she also may be feeling a change in mood and possibly a change in the behavior of people that care about her.

Donna, that is just so sad. That's enough to make a grown adult Millie like me cry.

:cry:

Donna, I think your daughter is a Millennial. The first new-gen birthyear is usually two years before the Turning boundary, sometimes three as with Xers. No way did the 4T begin in 1999.

Thanks, madscientist. It was a little sad.

I've been theorizing that kids who are in college or in school or daycare (and of cognizant age) are Millennials. Here's why:

I've been enlisted to provide trauma/crisis counseling to some students at the University of Buffalo (which has a high number of students from NY metro area). These students have been directly affected either by having lost family members in the WTC attack or through not knowing the status of their family members. School communities, especially colleges, are having to mobilize responses to these attacks. Student groups are also organizing vigils, blood drives, etc. School age kids are directly hearing about the attacks and discussing them and even kids my daughter's age (almost 4) are being told what is going on because they are going to hear stuff and see stuff anyway.

So depending on how things turn out, anyone who is currently at least age 3 or who is still in college (or late adolescence 18-22) could be a Millennial. Current 22 year olds were born in 1979, ergo Millennials 1979 - 1998-9; Unravelling 1981-2000??

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, that seemed about right to me to, for the reasons you described, Donna (see my post above predicting new boundaries). The only difference is that I think people born in 1979 are a bit more Xer-like and people born in 1980 are a bit more Millie-like. Most of those born in 1979 have graduated from college and are all doing their own thing, be it work, grad school, study in Copenhagen, whatever. They aren't holed-up on campus with a bunch of other team-oriented Millies losing their innocence together. Most of those born in 1980 are in college with other Millies. They will experience this tragedy together. (I hope that doesn't sound terribly elitist -- I realize that not everyone goes to college, but these days most do for at least a little while.)

Also, I think your daughter is a Millie. My eleven month old was not affected at all, being too young to understand. He might have thought it was odd that both mommy and daddy dropped him off at day care yesterday and that we both picked him so soon after dropping him off. He also might have thought it was strange that we watched that funny black box for hours yesterday, while taking turns watching him. But, he had nothing like the loss of innocence that your daughter experienced yesterday. He is blissfully ignorant and will know nothing of childhood before the 4T. He will be like the Silent child who asked, daddy what do they put in the paper when there is no war? :sad:

Neisha wrote:

"X Gen -- 1960-1980
Millenial Gen -- 1980-1998
New Adaptive Gen -- 1999-? "

I was born in 1961 and my son in 1999. It looks like we'll both be among the first of our recessive generation. I don't believe he really understood anything that was on TV about the terrorism yesterday, but we didn't watch it much while he was home anyway. He may have noticed the somber mood, though...he didn't sleep well last night.

Hello, everyone. I don't feel like saying much right now. But I will let you know that I am around 14-15 year olds. My millie is 15. She told me that yesterday at school, the 9th and 10th graders weren't allowed to watch on TV, because it was too traumatic and that was because we were so affected by the OKC bombing in this area. I don't know how the school is handling this today.

So, she and her friends had lot's of questions and comments last evening, as I was carpooling from dance. These kids are scared and angry at the same time and say, "alright, mom!" when I submit a little humor with "we need to call Roy D. Mercer to open up that giant-sized can of whup-a$$"

On the other hand, my boomer husband '53, can barely function and eat. He seems to be more dazed and absent-minded, but angry.

If you haven't heard of Roy D., he is a character played by a Tulsa DJ. They play the cd's on a lot of radio stations (at least out here in fly-over land). Roy is very redneck and makes prank calls on the air, with the pretense of a complaint. When he really gets going, he threatens, "am I gonna have to come down there and open a giant-sized can.......on somebody?"

About all we can do at this point is observe what roles people of various ages "snap into" as events unfold.

What we do know now is that all but one of the major Congressional leaders of both parties were born in 1940, '41 or '42! (Trent Lott in 1940, Dick Armey and Dick Gephardt in '41, Dennis Hastert in '42; Tom Daschle being the sole exception). Are we to now expect that these leaders will step aside just because they are "too old" by one or two years? Not likely. Thus the Silent/Boom boundary definitely needs to be reassessed.

The Boom/13th line has to be considered "up for grabs" as well. It is significant to note here that the youngest member of George W. Bush's cabinet was born in 1957! And since the oldest Lost cohort turned 46 years old when the stock market crashed, why couldn't the oldest Nomad cohort of this saeculum be 43?

Another issue concerns the start of 3T. If it was January 15, 1984, then it lasted just over 17 years, placing us in great danger of a repeat of the Civil War scenario. But if it actually began earlier - and the two most plausible dates would be November 4, 1980 (Reagan's victory in the election) or January 20, 1981 (the date of both Reagan's inauguration and the return of the hostages from Iran) - then we are in much better shape as far as the chances of this Crisis having a happy ending go.

And are all of us here in complete agreement that this is, indeed, the Crisis catalyst?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anthony '58 on 2001-09-12 12:38 ]</font>

Anthony, this morning I posted this over on the currently very active "Are We in the 4th Turning" forum. I will cut & paste it here.


What's scary about this is it's so early for the 4T. This is what happened with the Civil War. Only a minority of Millies are even legally adults. If indeed we are in the 4T--and I do believe we are--what we believed were late Xers will have to become Heroes to take up the slack. Of course, these Heroes will really be Nomad/Hero hybrids, and all except the very oldest Millennials (those old enough to fight) will become Hero/Artist hybrids. Children too young to remember this event
(about age 3) are the New Artists. It's also possible that last wave Boomers may take on more of a Nomad role than a Prophet one. Here, the possible boundaries resulting from this event.

New Silent: 1998--?

Millennial: 1979--1998

Xer: 1958--1978

I am sure the dates I've proposed for Xers will be very much open to debate, as it would shorten the already short Boom generation to a mere 14 years, unless we moved the lower limit of that back 3 years as well (some would, in fact, argue that
1939-42 cohorts are more like Boomers than Silents). Another thing to keep in mind is last wave Boomers are old enough
that they may no longer be so malleable, even if they do take on a Nomadic role in years to come. So possibly, only the
birthyears for the upper limit of Xers, and for Millies and New Silents would be affected.

I wouldn't say that an early Crisis would affect the Boom/X boundary. I think any such people are already pretty much one thing or the other (to the extent that anybody is). The X/Millennial boundary is another story, and the Millennial/New Artist boundary is entirely unknown at the moment.

most 79 cohorts are out of college
what separates them from 78 cohorts or 77 cohorts

I know Im as self serving as Anthony or Susan
are.
But since most 79 cohorts are out of college, they should be put in the Lost column. I dont understand the logic that separates them from 78 or 77 cohorts.
i propose these new boundaries.
Boom 1940-1959
Xer 1960-1979
Millie 1980-1998
I think this college barrier is important.
Remember that the 79 cohorts were the last to watch the challenger in school.
and we were teens in the early 90s like Neisha said.
remember Im trying to serve myself just like Anthony or Susan.
So I understand if you want to discredit me for your own interests, you two.

Matthew, if we say that 911 is the catalyst, then we can speculate about the Millennial/New Artist boundary. Based on the starting years of other gens with respect to the turning and identifying mechanisms by which Millennials vs Artists are socialized.

Justin, you're right, most 22 year olds are probably done with college. But only if they graduated on time or didn't take off any time between HS and college. Also, as Neisha points out, some don't go to college, so they wouldn't be experiencing the group organization around 911 as much.

Well in my program right now, Im in a room with a 66 cohort, a 71 cohort, a 76 cohort, a 77 cohort, a 78 cohort, myself and perhaps some 80 cohorts.
Many of these people are in school so.....

Sooo . . . are you wondering whether you're Millennial?

I don't think so. Justin, quite possibly you could be the most un-Millennial 79er I know!

Donna wrote: "Matthew, if we say that 911 is the catalyst, then we can speculate about the Millennial/New Artist boundary. Based on the starting years of other gens with respect to the turning and identifying mechanisms by which Millennials vs Artists are socialized."

True. But that's a big 'if'.

The consensus seems to be that 911 is the catalyst, although I suppose there is a chance that it's not. Judging from how the players are lining up and the liklihood of war, seems like it's the catalyst.

BTW, Welcome back Matthew. I've missed your posts.

Thanks. I'll try not to abandon you guys again. I leave you alone for a couple of months and look what happens - the Red Sox go in the toilet and Tom and Nicole break up.

I suspect a great many people actually coping with this crisis are x'ers.

I can tell you what I see. My oldest son is nearing 21. He is working as in computers (database programming, I think) at an investment firm in mid-town Manhattan. He is married. Please get your jaws up off the floor; it was his choice, and his wife's, to marry at the age they wished. If he attends college in the future, well, that is also his choice. He was able to self-teach himself the skills he needed. (Sorry for the tone, but you should see the raised eyebrows I get sometimes, just because they got married!)

My other son, 18, is also a computer programmer and attending college as well. What I hear from them: one of my daughter-in-law's friends from high school, obviously older, now in med school, was over at Bellevue Hospital all night. My 18 year old's fiancee has a brother who is an EMT and was out at Liberty State Park doing triage. I think the fiancee is the oldest, and she is, oh, 19, so the EMT brother must be youngish. The brother may be in college for all I know, the fiancee certainly is.

I suspect that whatever leads Millenials to congregate will act whether they are in college or in the work force.

I too wonder about pushing back the boundaries. My oldest, born early 81, is a bit more of a "do it my own way" type than the 18 year old (born late 82). I am prone to suspect the Millenials start about 1980. But let us remember that boundaries depend upon life experiences, and those can depend more upon what stage of life you are engaged in rather than your age. My father was born in 1924, but through various "manipulations" got himself into the Navy in 1941 prior to Pearl Harbor, and thus became quite a card-carrying GI, both literally and physically.

I don't have a problem with your boundaries, Justin. I never said the ones I proposed were written in stone. Yours are just fine.

well ill say this
themillis i know are real scared
i findmyself having to be the strong one
i know alot of dead people
but i am oing to have to hold thistogether

:sad:

Justin, hang in there, buddy.

Sorry for your loss.

Justin, my heart goes out to you and I am sorry you have lost loved ones. I know this sounds trite, but "this too shall pass."

You have a lot of company.