On 2002-02-11 01:00, Anthony '58 wrote:

Looks like I really stepped into a land mine here! All I was trying to do with yesterday's post is to get the idea out there that a certain series of birth cohorts has both prominent "Boomer" and "13er" features - the 1958-68 cohorts generally, and the 1958-60 cohorts in particular.

Actually your original post did get lost in the shuffle, didn't it? But let me say that I thought your Missouri analogy was fascinating as was your Kentucky one. This reminds me that I ought to go back and reread your post after all this discussion which it spawned.

On 2002-02-11 01:44, Anthony '58 wrote:

Actually, the mean temperature of the coldest month (usually January) is a bigger issue than the length of the growing season (the number of consecutive frost-free days which can be anticipated). The "magic number" here is 6 degrees Celsius (42.8 Fahrenheit), the minimum temperature at which year-round plant growth can occur. At the Atlantic coast, the 6 degrees C. coldest-month isotherm is virtually right at the Virginia-North Carolina border; then it moves diagonally southwestward, barely grazing the northernmost corner of South Carolina, then skims through the northern margins of Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi, then across the river into southern Arkansas (Little Rock is north of the line). In Texas, the line runs between Dallas and the Red River, which forms the Texas-Oklahoma border; then runs along the stem of the Texas panhandle and meets the Rio Grande at El Paso, where the average January temperature is exactly 6.0 C. This line follows, very closely, the northern limit of cotton cultivation, and also (in coastal areas) where the hardiest palm trees can survive.

Fascinating! It's close but probably not exact at every point along the line. For example, I recall that cotton can be grown in West Tennessee. I believe that the average January high in Memphis is about 52 and the average low is about 32. Memphis should be on or just north of that isotherm. However cotton can be grown I guess up to around the 36th parallel at this point on the line. The January mean is probably about 40 degrees at the limit here. But the limit probably does follow that isotherm over the rest of the run. I wonder why this "anomaly" exists in the vicinity of the Mississippi River?

While tobacco was also a crop where slaves were untilized, it can actually be cultivated anywhere snow doesn't stay on the ground for a fixed period of time each winter - and for that a coldest-month mean temperature of -3 degrees Celsius (26.6 Fahrenheit) or colder is necessary. Tobacco farms exist as far north as Connecticut (although the number of varieties that can be grown at the northern edge of the zone is rather limited). Bet you didn't know that.

Virgil's example of Wisconsin would seem to buck even that -3 deg. C line. I wonder what it is they are growing up there? Figuring very roughly, Boston would be very close to this line if not a tad south of it. Cleveland would probably be just south of it and Detroit just north. Chicago would be just north and Kansas City just south. No, I never would have thought about anybody growing tobacco that far north.

Still we know that slavery ceased to be profitable south of this line because it died out. It persisted in southern New Jersey into the 1830s until abolished on moral grounds. If we speculate as to a mean January isotherm for this limit, it would probably be either 0 or 1 deg. C. I did a quick check and the Cincinnati mean I have shows 1 deg. and St. Louis shows 0 deg. This would be pretty darn close. I'll bet the 0 deg. C isotherm serves as an effective northern limit for profitable slavery.

Since you inquired, SP, Memphis's January mean is 4.2 C; because the Mississippi Valley would have a somewhat lower elevation than the surrounding area, some locations near Memphis may indeed have slightly warmer winter temperatures. If you want to look up different places, try these two links:

http://www.worldclimate.com
http://www.weatherbase.com

But as far as the -3 C line goes: It strikes the Atlantic coast at Cape Ann, near Gloucester, Massachusetts (indeed, just north of Boston). Then it skims through the northern parts of Rhode Island and Connecticut and crosses into New York State near Greenwich, CT and the Hudson River near Peekskill. Then it alternates between nothwest New Jersey, south-central New York and north-central Pennsylvania (depending on altitude), then heads for Lake Erie; indeed, Cleveland is only a few miles north of the line! Just west of Cleveland it heads south, drops into central Indiana, then courses through central-to-southern Illinois, then into Missouri, about halfway between St. Louis and the Iowa border. After that it pursues a slightly southward course through Missouri and Kansas. Due to altitude considerations, no generalization is possible as to where the line is in the Rocky Mountain states; but it swings sharply northward west of the Rockies and goes all the way to Juneau, Alaska, where it makes contact with the Pacific (virtually all of the Aleutian Islands have coldest-month means above -3 C).

The second edition of John Griffiths' Applied Climatology includes a rather crude map showing roughly where the 6 C isotherm runs. It's been out of print for years; your local library is your best bet.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Anthony '58 on 2002-02-11 06:12 ]</font>

A New York perspective.

Delaware, whatever.

Maryland, Sucks, by far the lamest state.

District of Columbia, Cold antiseptic, total bullshit. Filled with bureaucratic brown nosing scum.


Virginia, Truck driving shotgun toting people.

West Virginia, Hey, they left VA to JOIN the Union. so good for them.

North Carolina, Hicks


South Carolina, Lynch Mob

Georgia, Newt Gingrich

and Florida. Miami Vice


East South Central:
Kentucky, Yee haw!
Tennessee, Country music
Alabama, Hee HAW
and Mississippi.This is the most southern state. I wont get into it.

West South Central: Arkansas, Bill Clinton
Louisiana, Barefoot Cajuns living in swamps eating raw alligator flesh
Oklahoma, tumble weed
and Texas. EW please leave our country.

At the risk of starting another civil war, here's a floridian/north carolinian/virginian/bostonian perpective.

New York. Lots of austere looking black cars. A motley mix of warm-hearted immigrants, arrogant and pushy businessmen, and art students into freaky fetishes involving fur. But all are more than willing to tell you that you suck.

Massachustetts. A strange mix of fun, salty, go-getter, and slightly agressive blue collar types, immigrants, nice people. BUT...also a significant number of pompous can-do-no-wrong, holier-than-thou arrogant people who believe that they are next in line for some kind of royalty or knighthood. If you fail to patronize these queer delusions of godhood in every possible way, beware. BEWARE! The first sign of displeasing this species is when the mean, perpetually frown-creased face pinches up into a bitter scowl as if they'd sampled rancid trash for the first time. You might set off this reaction simply by being in this person's way. If so, there's only one reaction: RUN.

Connecticut. By far, this state has more a**h***s per capita than anywhere else on the planet. I'm not talking about the kind you can just brush away with a chuckle. I'm talking about the ruin-your-day-with-a-sadistic-gleam-in-the-eye kind. You are nothing but a bug to squash to them on their path to greater feats of obnoxious evil.

Ohio. Not a bad state, but do not get pulled over by a cop in Ohio. These are the meanest state troopers around. Southern Ohio has far more hicks than I ever saw in North Carolina--even EASTERN NC where there are a few.

Virginia. Pure heaven. The pinnacle of civilization. I don't see many hicks here. Just beautiful green hills, horses, friendly people, and an occasional mean person from DC.

North Carolina. Asheville is tres beautiful, with tons o cool people. Chapel Hill is also pure heaven, although some of the scenesters can be a little snobby. Camp Lejune is nothing but trouble and rough housing by people with massive biceps and the will to use them.

Colorado. This is where all the phony liberals from California went after California got too crowded. They drove the rent and land price up so high that you can't even afford a shack after working 2-3 jobs. Then they put up all these cute and trendy little ex-hippie, new agey style shops filled with useless stuff that nobody needs--in addition to coffee shoppes which sell you way overpriced java sludge and bran muffins that plunge through your intestines like a rock. They build all this crazy stuff where a view of the mountains used to be, and then they complain about all the smog.

Florida. Nice wide boulavards with traffic lights specifically timed for old people having "senior moments." In spite of all the comforts of the state, the senior citizens are still by and large as mean and crabby and unfriendly as can be, and would just as soon whack you over the head with their cane if you look in their general direction with a deferential smile.

On 2002-02-11 09:24, jcarson71 wrote:
At the risk of starting another civil war, here's a floridian/north carolinian/virginian/bostonian perpective.

New York. Lots of austere looking black cars. A motley mix of warm-hearted immigrants, arrogant and pushy businessmen, and art students into freaky fetishes involving fur. But all are more than willing to tell you that you suck.

What about the Italians? You got a problem with them or something? :evil:

Massachustetts. A strange mix of fun, salty, go-getter, and slightly agressive blue collar types, immigrants, nice people. BUT...also a significant number of pompous can-do-no-wrong, holier-than-thou arrogant people who believe that they are next in line for some kind of royalty or knighthood. If you fail to patronize these queer delusions of godhood in every possible way, beware. BEWARE! The first sign of displeasing this species is when the mean, perpetually frown-creased face pinches up into a bitter scowl as if they'd sampled rancid trash for the first time. You might set off this reaction simply by being in this person's way. If so, there's only one reaction: RUN.

Ah, you mean the Puritan descendents! :grin:

Virginia. Pure heaven. The pinnacle of civilization. I don't see many hicks here. Just beautiful green hills, horses, friendly people, and an occasional mean person from DC.

Thank you. :smile:

Colorado. This is where all the phony liberals from California went after California got too crowded. They drove the rent and land price up so high that you can't even afford a shack after working 2-3 jobs. Then they put up all these cute and trendy little ex-hippie, new agey style shops filled with useless stuff that nobody needs--in addition to coffee shoppes which sell you way overpriced java sludge and bran muffins that plunge through your intestines like a rock. They build all this crazy stuff where a view of the mountains used to be, and then they complain about all the smog.

What about all of those Born Agains in Colorado Springs? Isn't that the headquarters of Focus on the Family and that Dobson guy? :???:

Florida. Nice wide boulavards with traffic lights specifically timed for old people having "senior moments." In spite of all the comforts of the state, the senior citizens are still by and large as mean and crabby and unfriendly as can be, and would just as soon whack you over the head with their cane if you look in their general direction with a deferential smile.

But if no habla espanol, you've got a problem in the Sunshine State. :???:


_________________
Why does it have to take a disaster to acknowledge the beauty of being alive? -- Maharaji

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-02-11 10:20 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jenny Genser on 2002-02-11 10:21 ]</font>

On 2002-02-11 05:27, Stonewall Patton wrote:

Fascinating! It's close but probably not exact at every point along the line. For example, I recall that cotton can be grown in West Tennessee. I believe that the average January high in Memphis is about 52 and the average low is about 32. Memphis should be on or just north of that isotherm. However cotton can be grown I guess up to around the 36th parallel at this point on the line. The January mean is probably about 40 degrees at the limit here. But the limit probably does follow that isotherm over the rest of the run. I wonder why this "anomaly" exists in the vicinity of the Mississippi River?

Not only is cotton grown in West Tennessee, but also across the river in E. Arkansas up and down along I-55 over to Jonesboro. My family is from that region, and as a child I can remember cotton growing in southeast Missouri along the river. My grandfather was a cotton broker and a grower.

What is it about the fertile Mississippi River Valley (especially the Ark-Tn region)? For one thing, the low elevation of the land. In the upper W. Ark. pocket between Jonesboro and Tennessee, there are towns called Lake City and Water Valley. Their history is unique because much of that area used to be a body of water, a series of lakes, which were pumped dry in order to grow more cotton. So, the soil is also quite fertile. It's also very humid there. The western edge of Tennessee has similar geographical histories and is part of this valley. The winter months are plenty snowy and icey, and the summers are stifling with heat and humidity - lots of umph in every season there.

One other thing about that region that comes to mind, though I never was motivated to learn the details: there is a big fault near New Madrid, Mo. that runs down into this valley. I can remember people talking about long-ago earthqakes having "made the land good". However, I never gave much thought to figuring out why, not into geology. :smile:

I think I mentioned this on another thread, but a very good (although now dated) look at how the North American continent is divided is Joel Garreau's "The Nine Nations of North America." My excerpt is packed w/my undergrad notes, so unfortunately I can't access it for details, but it's a hugely interesting & different perspective on North America. For linguistic differences & dialects, try Bill Bryson's "Made in America" & "The Mother Tongue: English & How It Got That Way," Allan Metcalf's "How We Talk: American Regional English Today," & Jim Crotty(aka The Mad Monk)'s "How to Talk American." (My undergrad degree is in cultural/political geography & I had a no. of classes on these topics.)

What do you all call a carbonated beverage & a sandwich of assorted meats on a long roll? :smile:

On 2002-02-10 21:49, Virgil K. Saari wrote:
They grew tobacco in Connecticut and Wisconsin for cigar wrapper under gauze...it did not make them part of Dixie.


Southern Illinois (Egypt) is part of the South as far as culture goes. Northern Missouri is just a warmer Iowa as far as I could tell from what they would show me. HTH

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Virgil K. Saari on 2002-02-10 22:19 ]</font>

Tobacco was also grown in the Southern Tier of New York until the early part of the 20th century (if I remember correctly, in Tioga & Chemung Counties). Binghamton was known for its many cigar manufacturing companies, one of which gave the city its nickname: The "Parlor City."

AWWWWW.. shucks. I love everybody. That last posting of mine should be taken with a seriously large "grain of salt." Y'all know I was only 15% serious, right?!!?

I was just responding to Justin 79 who had a few things to say about us hicks in the South.

On 2002-02-11 14:11, Sherry63 wrote:

What do you all call a carbonated beverage & a sandwich of assorted meats on a long roll? :smile:

I call it a soda and a sub.

Kiff '61

On 2002-02-11 14:15, jcarson71 wrote:
AWWWWW.. shucks. I love everybody. That last posting of mine should be taken with a seriously large "grain of salt." Y'all know I was only 15% serious, right?!!?

I was just responding to Justin 79 who had a few things to say about us hicks in the South.

Yeah! I was just having some fun. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

On 2002-02-11 14:16, Kiff '61 wrote:

On 2002-02-11 14:11, Sherry63 wrote:

What do you all call a carbonated beverage & a sandwich of assorted meats on a long roll? :smile:

I call it a soda and a sub.

Kiff '61

Me too. When I lived in Iowa City, Iowa for 2 1/2 years, I had to get used to "pop".

A term used in Maryland and Virginia for license plates is "tags". When I was living in Iowa City and I mentioned that I had to get new "tags", no one knew what I was talking about. :oops:

When I was a kid, I used the word "pop" more often than "soda." I think it came from my parents, who both grew up in rural Wisconsin. If one goes to northern Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan, "pop" appears quite a bit.

Kiff '61, who enjoys regional slang.

Anyone here know what a "bubbler" is? :smile:

On 2002-02-08 21:12, TrollKing wrote:

On 2002-02-07 17:49, Susan Brombacher wrote:

(I first started feeling twinges of being "old" at age 21, when my teens were over!)

this brings up an observation of mine-- i've found that many women that i've known rue the passing of their teens; that turning 20 somehow makes them "old". yet most men i have known are more than happy to be out of their teens and into their 20s-- only to feel the same loss the women felt at 20 as they turn 30.

anyone agree/disagree?


TK

I am now 33, and no, I don't feel particularly old, or bothered by being that age. Yes, I remain close to my parents, no, I don't regard myself as an adolescent.

My two bits.

I didn't even notice the passing of my teens -- too busy enjoying being a college student and looking forward to turning 21. I was happy when my 20s were over because I foolishly thought that people would finally take me seriously as an adult. Little did I know that "adolescence" actually lasts until 34! Thank you Washington Post.

For the first time in my life I am a bit nervous about a birthday. Thirty-five is coming up and 36 really does sound middle aged. And I feel like my life is nowhere near as together as it should be at this age. I'd like to have things together professionally by 40, but who knows? It's a bit scary to be this age and still feel kind of like a kid. At least I know I'm not alone in this!

On 2002-02-11 14:11, Sherry63 wrote:

What do you all call a carbonated beverage & a sandwich of assorted meats on a long roll? :smile:

In my youth it was pop and a hero in NE Minnesota. In Minneapolis at college cira 1970, it was pop and a sub[marine].

On 2002-02-10 19:59, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

Speaking of Maryland, I am curious how Marylanders see themselves and their culture. From what I've read, both Maryland and Delaware were considered Southern states prior to the Civil War. However it seems that most Americans consider Maryland, and definitely Delaware, to be part of the Northeast today. This is probably because they didn't secede from the Union during the war, which would have cut off Washington D.C. from the Union. (This is the opposite of Kentucky, which is generally considered Southern today, whereas initially considered part of the Midwest).

The thing is that Maryland (unfairly, but commonly) is perceived in much of the U.S. as a sort of subset or suburb of D.C., which itself is today considered to be part of the 'Northeast Corridor', defined roughly as the States where the local GOP preferred McCain to Bush.

On 2002-02-10 21:49, Virgil K. Saari wrote:
They grew tobacco in Connecticut and Wisconsin for cigar wrapper under gauze...it did not make them part of Dixie.

Southern Illinois (Egypt) is part of the South as far as culture goes.

Virgil, you're one of the very few people I've encountered in modern America who know that Southern Illinois is also called Little Egypt locally!

Little Egypt does strongly resemble the South culturally in many ways (but the slavery question was always debated there, it wasn't solidly pro-slave or pro-abolitionist). However, the locals tend to regard themselves as Midwesterners.

In fact, an oddity is that locals in Southern Illinois, Northwestern Kentucky, and Southest Missouri (and maybe the surrounding areas too) tend to regard themselves and their region as 'the' Midwest, and to maintain that Michigan, northern Illinois, etc, are not.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: HopefulCynic68 on 2002-02-11 15:04 ]</font>

On 2002-02-11 10:17, Jenny Genser wrote:

Massachustetts. A strange mix of fun, salty, go-getter, and slightly agressive blue collar types, immigrants, nice people. BUT...also a significant number of pompous can-do-no-wrong, holier-than-thou arrogant people who believe that they are next in line for some kind of royalty or knighthood. If you fail to patronize these queer delusions of godhood in every possible way, beware. BEWARE! The first sign of displeasing this species is when the mean, perpetually frown-creased face pinches up into a bitter scowl as if they'd sampled rancid trash for the first time. You might set off this reaction simply by being in this person's way. If so, there's only one reaction: RUN.

Ah, you mean the Puritan descendents! :grin:

Descendents? What about the modern, full-bore, We're Here To Save The World and You From Yourself Even If We Have To Stomp On You For Your Own Good! Puritans America somehow birthed around, oh, 1943-19(61-63)? :lol:

This bunch seems to like it in Massachusetts, too!

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and New York are often seen as "Great Lakes States" since the St. Lawrence Seaway was finished. Ohio and Indiana are usually left off the list as is Pennsylvania.

On 2002-02-11 08:31, Justin'79 wrote:
A New York perspective.

Delaware, whatever.

Yeah, why does it even exist? It seems like it should be part of either Maryland or Pennsylvania or both.

Maryland, Sucks, by far the lamest state.

OK, but why does Maryland suck? Can you be more specific?

District of Columbia, Cold antiseptic, total bullshit. Filled with bureaucratic brown nosing scum.

Right on.

Virginia, Truck driving shotgun toting people.

Well, you blew this one. As of today, the entirety of northern Virginia is nothing more than a Washington suburb (see your DC description, I guess?). Also you will find many genteel Southerners in Virginia and the Carolinas who will deny that rednecks even exist in their states. As far as they are concerned, you don't find rednecks until you hit Georgia and then rednecks dominate to the west. Regardless, Virginia really is not known for "truck driving, shotgun-toting" people. If they ever existed there, they are now an endangered species if not already extinct.

West Virginia, Hey, they left VA to JOIN the Union. so good for them.

OK, but you actually DO find "truck driving, shotgun-toting" people here. And the sheep are not safe. :smile: (Sorry, I actually love West Virginia.)

North Carolina, Hicks

Not anymore. There are a whole lot of people from places like New Jersey.

South Carolina, Lynch Mob

Jeez.

Georgia, Newt Gingrich

Newt Gingrich is from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.

and Florida. Miami Vice

More like the "Golden Girls."

On 2002-02-11 13:24, Barbara wrote:

One other thing about that region that comes to mind, though I never was motivated to learn the details: there is a big fault near New Madrid, Mo. that runs down into this valley. I can remember people talking about long-ago earthqakes having "made the land good". However, I never gave much thought to figuring out why, not into geology. :smile:

I don't know about making the land good, but the NM fault is one of the most potentially powerful in North America. About 200 years ago (not quite that, actually), this baby produced an earthquake which shook the entire eastern half of the continent.

Among other things, this monster quake:

1. Altered the flow of rivers.

2. Produced 'sand boils' all over the region.

3. Created lakes.

4. Seriously damaged structures as far away as Detroit and Washington, D.C.

This was in the days when much of the region was very sparsely settled. If the same quake repeated itself today (and it could), the resulting potential damage would be all but incalculable. The primary zone of such a quake would be a region containing:

1. Memphis, Tennessee.

2. St. Louis, Missouri

3. Cinncinatti, Ohio.

4. Nashville, Tennessee

Plus numerous other cities only slightly less affected, including Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, etc. There would probably be some damage and death in western Virginia, Washington, D.C., etc.


Death tolls could in theory go into the millions, property damage would be beyond anything ever experienced in American history. Hmmm...that might do as as 4T trigger. :wink:

On 2002-02-11 15:09, Virgil K. Saari wrote:

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan, and New York are often seen as "Great Lakes States" since the St. Lawrence Seaway was finished. Ohio and Indiana are usually left off the list as is Pennsylvania.

Why is that? I am picturing the steel mills at Gary and the elevators (I think?) at the port of Toledo.