William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core. You do show a little healthy skepticism, but that's not uncommon in Heroes, esepcially first wave ones. You may have a touch of Nomadness, but definitely strike me as Millennial.

On 2002-05-07 19:20, Susan Brombacher wrote:
William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core. You do show a little healthy skepticism, but that's not uncommon in Heroes, esepcially first wave ones. You may have a touch of Nomadness, but definitely strike me as Millennial.

So we have two Jones Boomers placing me in that category... but then again let me ask you the same thing I asked Jenny: where would you place Jefferson (who seems to have a closer saecular position to me than any other famous historical figure I know) on the Hero/Nomad continuum?

On 2002-05-07 18:20, Ty Webb wrote:
Oh yeah, as soon as I entered adolescence I tried fitting in...that failed horribly making me choose "me" several years later.

Same here... (although it was always as little as possible for obvious reasons - I want to keep my identity!) except it actually succeeded while I was in 8th grade (that year I didn't have to do all that much to fit in for some reason) but each year after that gave me more and more reasons to, as you put it, "choose 'me'"... and my first year at Jarvard did little more than confirm what I already knew

On 2002-05-07 19:55, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:20, Susan Brombacher wrote:
William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core. You do show a little healthy skepticism, but that's not uncommon in Heroes, esepcially first wave ones. You may have a touch of Nomadness, but definitely strike me as Millennial.

So we have two Jones Boomers placing me in that category... but then again let me ask you the same thing I asked Jenny: where would you place Jefferson (who seems to have a closer saecular position to me than any other famous historical figure I know) on the Hero/Nomad continuum?

I would say Jefferson is very slighly more Nomad than Hero, but not much. Almost a 50-50 split in my book. Though honestly I am no expert on Jefferson.

On 2002-05-07 20:05, Susan Brombacher wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:55, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:20, Susan Brombacher wrote:
William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core. You do show a little healthy skepticism, but that's not uncommon in Heroes, esepcially first wave ones. You may have a touch of Nomadness, but definitely strike me as Millennial.

So we have two Jones Boomers placing me in that category... but then again let me ask you the same thing I asked Jenny: where would you place Jefferson (who seems to have a closer saecular position to me than any other famous historical figure I know) on the Hero/Nomad continuum?

I would say Jefferson is very slighly more Nomad than Hero, but not much. Almost a 50-50 split in my book. Though honestly I am no expert on Jefferson.

I'd probably agree... he is my personal favorite of the founding fathers - also looking before the saeclum to my favorite intellectual, Socrates, I'd say that he's also a Nomad/Hero cusper (when he was a teenager he was highly esteemed and represented Athens in all of its glory - you would have said he was as Heroic as you think I am at that point if not more so; when he was an old man he represented everything bad about Athens and was condemned to die - his death scene seems to be very Nomadic!)... hopefully my life path will not mirror Socrates' tho but those two people seem to be more similar to me (and also very logical thinkers; in fact Socrates was the one who taught the world how to think logically!) than any other historical figures...

Mail,

When I say I "tried to fit in," it has alot to do with masculinity and being a teenager.
I was really tall at a young age (I hit my growth spurt in 5th grade, growing from 4'11" to 5'7" in one year!) and so alot of people expected me to be this tough athlete.
But I had a very non-gendered upbringing, and I had no masculine traits unwillingly pushed on me, so pretty much I was a big softy that wouldn't fight back.
I also was extremely strange and had a kind of stream of consciousness way of communicating (which was even more bizarre back then) so nobody (especially 7th and 8th graders) could understand what the fuck I was talking about.
This alienated me from the other students, and so I tried to fit in until I just broke down, and in the words of David Crosby, decided to "let my freak flag fly."
..................................

As for Thomas Jefferson, although he was important before the revolution, I really see him as having much more in common with Madison (who drafted the Constitution) and Alexander Hamilton (who helped build our Treasury) also John Jay (1745) and John Marshall (1755?) who pretty much established our judicial branch of government.
People like John adams, and George washington played a very small role in formulating the blueprints of this country, while Jefferson's contribution was both tremendous and radical.

To my knowledge it was people like John Hancock, Charles Carroll (my ancestor hehehe),John Adams and others, who eased the creation of the republic, and old eccentrics and firebrands like Samuel Adams, and Ben Franklin that gave it its revolutionary spark.

On 2002-05-07 20:10, Xer of Evil wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:55, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:20, Susan Brombacher wrote:
William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core.

So we have two Jones Boomers placing me in that category

Hey, what about me?

Don't ask me about Jefferson, though. I don't do history.

XoE

Yeah... and at the other end we have Sbarro (who considers me nomadic enough that he felt that the first true Millie year should be pushed all the way back to 1985!) - the historical comparison seemed primarily to establish me as more Heroic or Nomadic by comparing myself to various Heroes, Nomads, and cuspers

On 2002-05-07 21:19, Ty Webb wrote:
Mail,

When I say I "tried to fit in," it has alot to do with masculinity and being a teenager.
I was really tall at a young age (I hit my growth spurt in 5th grade, growing from 4'11" to 5'7" in one year!) and so alot of people expected me to be this tough athlete.
But I had a very non-gendered upbringing, and I had no masculine traits unwillingly pushed on me, so pretty much I was a big softy that wouldn't fight back.
I also was extremely strange and had a kind of stream of consciousness way of communicating (which was even more bizarre back then) so nobody (especially 7th and 8th graders) could understand what the fuck I was talking about.
This alienated me from the other students, and so I tried to fit in until I just broke down, and in the words of David Crosby, decided to "let my freak flag fly."
..................................

I was never all that into sports myself (I'd be much happier just thinking) even though I liked hockey because of its strategy and as a way to get out aggression - I'm pretty sure that due to my skipping a grade your 5th grade would be like my 7th (the year I began my major growth spurt except because I'm not that tall I merely went from 4'8 to 5' that year); it always seemed like my peers were into stuff that just wasn't all that interesting - so after a brief flirtation with fitting in I too returned to the shadows of being an outcast and sought out as friends those few people who were also either outcasts or outcasts at heart

As for Thomas Jefferson, although he was important before the revolution, I really see him as having much more in common with Madison (who drafted the Constitution) and Alexander Hamilton (who helped build our Treasury) also John Jay (1745) and John Marshall (1755?) who pretty much established our judicial branch of government.
People like John adams, and George washington played a very small role in formulating the blueprints of this country, while Jefferson's contribution was both tremendous and radical.

To my knowledge it was people like John Hancock, Charles Carroll (my ancestor hehehe),John Adams and others, who eased the creation of the republic, and old eccentrics and firebrands like Samuel Adams, and Ben Franklin that gave it its revolutionary spark.

As far as TJ is concerned, establishing that he is a cusper is easy for me - all I need to do is sit back and watch people like you argue that he is more Heroic and people like Stonewall argue that he is more Nomadic... I doubt that any argument will change that opinion (same with Socrates)

On 2002-05-07 21:35, Xer of Evil wrote:

On 2002-05-07 21:31, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 20:10, Xer of Evil wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:55, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 19:20, Susan Brombacher wrote:
William, I agree with Jenny that you are a Millie to the core.

So we have two Jones Boomers placing me in that category

Hey, what about me?

Don't ask me about Jefferson, though. I don't do history.

XoE

Yeah... and at the other end we have Sbarro (who considers me nomadic enough that he felt that the first true Millie year should be pushed all the way back to 1985!) - the historical comparison seemed primarily to establish me as more Heroic or Nomadic by comparing myself to various Heroes, Nomads, and cuspers

Why do you want to be an Xer anyway? I think that being a Millie would be pretty cool.

XoE

Did I ever say that I wanted to be, or that I considered myself, an Xer? I'm pretty sure that even if I wanted to be an Xer I just couldn't do it - I have a little too much Civic/Hero in me and not enough shared memories with the 68-born hardcore Xer crowd (although Challenger barely influenced them because they were 17-18 and it barely influenced me because I was 1...); similarly even if I wanted to be a Millie I couldn't convince anyone except hard-core Xers (each time I get criticized for being too cynical I am constantly reminded of that - and believe me, life at Jarvard would be MUCH easier if I really was as Millie as you thought I was); similarly I have too much of an identity, etc to be as civic-minded as those heroes. Because of my cuspishness I feel like I'm in a completely different generation not only from the Xers but from the Millies as well (I have a few friends born in the early to mid eighties who share my age location and have similar feelings of revulsion towards 'organization kids')... it's not an issue of who I want to be (if it were Anthony would be a solid Xer); it's that due to my year of birth and circumstances, I feel that I am a solid cusper (and when 87-89 wavers are old enough to post on this board, the differences between me and them will become striking as well as the differences between me and the late 70s set)

What about the domestic-terrorist mailbox bomber? I haven't watched the news tonight, but this afternoon there was a APB for a 20 year old college student. Who...from the looks of the photo I saw...looks like a very friendly Millie.

What will S&H make of this?

On 2002-05-07 21:49, Xer of Evil wrote:
I stand corrected. But you are still a millie.

XoE

From your (early X) perspective I am... I'd like to see what the younger (late 80s and 90s) set thinks... for some reason I doubt that they'll consider me part of their generation

On 2002-05-07 22:05, Xer of Evil wrote:

On 2002-05-07 21:54, mmailliw wrote:

On 2002-05-07 21:49, Xer of Evil wrote:
I stand corrected. But you are still a millie.

XoE

From your (early X) perspective I am... I'd like to see what the younger (late 80s and 90s) set thinks... for some reason I doubt that they'll consider me part of their generation

Whatever you are, we all like you anyway, lil dude.

XoE

yeah... :smile: if you believe some i hail from the planet saturn

Should we interpret the bomber as part of the disgruntled Tim McVeigh sort, or the bizarro Jihad Johnny sort?????

As for you and the 1987-1989 group, what makes them different from someone born in say...1996 or 1997?
I am sure they will find differences there as well.
Seriously I cant find any break between 1986 and 1987 at all...
I mean these kids started kindergarten in the 90s!!! :smile:
(For cryin out loud)
I don't care if they're driving...they're babies to me.

Ty.

And X of Evil,


You are 13 years older than me. How did you view children that were being born in the late 70s (in between smoking dope and playing Atari)?
From what I can gather, years like 1979, 1980, 81, and 82 were still filled with that 70s vibration.
I mean, we looked pretty much the same as the older Xer children...same haircut, same clothing..same experience, although not as much of it, which may have contributed to our cuspishness.
Kids, be they 4 or 14, looked different in 1983, or even 84 as opposed to 1987 or 88.
There certainly was a shift.
Christ, when I think of my early childhood all I can thing about are farms, petting zoos, extremely liberated female teachers, more "miracle of life" nature programming, Mutual of Omaha, 3-2-1 Contact!, Electric Co, and those dorky kids on mr wizard...

Im starting to wonder if the Tim McVeighs and this new bomber, John walker etc, are really part of the same thing....

Heres part of the bio I picked up on this pipe bomb kid who was "anti-government"

Helder was enrolled as a junior majoring in art and industrial design at the University of Wisconsin-Stout in Menomonie, 60 miles from his home, but had apparently not attended classes since at least April 24, a school official said. He played guitar and sang in a punk rock band called Apathy.

On a Web site for the band, two songs were posted, "Conformity" and "Back and Black," but the lyrics were unintelligible.

The issue of conformity is a theme in the bombing notes, which say, in part: "To `live' (avoid death) in this society you are forced to conform/slave away. I'm here to help you realize/ understand that you will live no matter what!"

From the start, the FBI called the attacks domestic terrorism. Over the weekend, former FBI profiler Clint Van Zandt had speculated that the writer of the notes was an older person, based on the phrase "attention getter." Instead, the suspect turned out to be a fresh-faced student acquaintances described as normal, even mellow.

"The top things I care about are my girlfriend ... and my music/band," Helder wrote on his band's Web site. "I party, play guitar, and talk online to everyone. That's my life."

I wonder if he's an 80 cohort...

On 2002-05-07 22:55, Ty Webb wrote:
Should we interpret the bomber as part of the disgruntled Tim McVeigh sort, or the bizarro Jihad Johnny sort?????

As for you and the 1987-1989 group, what makes them different from someone born in say...1996 or 1997?
I am sure they will find differences there as well.

This is why we need to wait until they are actually old enough to post here... and I will see
1) if their arguments hold water and
2) how different they are and/or consider themselves to be from me
- for some reason I think the hardest-core Millies will consider themselves proud to be Millies because they are proud to be part of the group (as opposed to being individuals) in the same way as the 82ers (but not the 83 - 85ers) on this board do; someone born in 87 could be 15 now so we might find out very soon

Seriously I cant find any break between 1986 and 1987 at all...
I mean these kids started kindergarten in the 90s!!! :smile:
(For cryin out loud)
I don't care if they're driving...they're babies to me.

Ty.

As are the 89-91ers to me... for 86 and 87 it doesn't seem logical that there should be a break (except that 86ers get to be teens during some part of the 90s whereas the 87ers became teens in 2000), but there definitely FEELS like a break between my brother's 86-cohort friends and my mom's 87-91 patients who are Britney Spears, Harry Potter, Pokemon, etc (whichever of those are not outdated)... based on the posters to this site the break appears to be instead between 85 and 86 (although taking the relatives of the posters into account it looks like 86 should go the other way) - in any event 86 seems to be a border year just barely hanging onto my wave (would an 86er with an 88 brother instead of a 76, 78, or 84 brother be any different? probably)

The kid definitely has that same "Fight Club" message.

Nope..he just turned 21..hes a 1981 cohort.

On 2002-05-07 21:19, Ty Webb wrote:
Mail,

As for Thomas Jefferson, although he was important before the revolution, I really see him as having much more in common with Madison (who drafted the Constitution) and Alexander Hamilton (who helped build our Treasury) also John Jay (1745) and John Marshall (1755?) who pretty much established our judicial branch of government.
People like John adams, and George washington played a very small role in formulating the blueprints of this country, while Jefferson's contribution was both tremendous and radical.

You just nailed why Jefferson was possibly more Nomad: he was radical. Madison, Hamilton, Jay, etc. were anything but radical. They were team players and centralizers, i.e. they were Heroes. They synthesized and implemented what their elders, some more radical and some more conservatives, had discussed. They got the job done as members of a team, without drama
and without fanfair. They were Heroes.

Jefferson's role as an "implementer" was largely done after the Declaration. After governing Virginia, and after the war ended, he was shipped off to France to replace his elder Franklin (Prophet) and was not even present when the Constitution was ratified. He contributed to the Constitutional proceedings through Madison who was more or less his pupil or star student. I just do not see where Jefferson saw himself as part of Madison's generation. He identified with Adams as a peer.

For whatever it is worth, I most closely identify with Jefferson and I, a first wave Nomad, am nowhere near TJ's point in the saeculum, regardless of whether you place him on the Nomad or Hero side of that border. There are civic-minded people in all generations, not just among Heroes. I have always been a civic-minded Nomad and I strongly suspect that Jefferson was too. We can get too rigid in seeking direct correspondence on the timeline.

To my knowledge it was people like John Hancock, Charles Carroll (my ancestor hehehe),John Adams and others, who eased the creation of the republic, and old eccentrics and firebrands like Samuel Adams, and Ben Franklin that gave it its revolutionary spark.

Yes, but it was the Liberty, not the Awakeners, who were the firebrands. The Prophets were a bit more reserved. Hell, Franklin was about as mild-mannered as you can get. Samuel Adams was a firebrand and rabble-rouser and he honestly looks like another Nomad to me, not a Prophet. Indeed his Prophet peers found him frustrating because he would not cooperate by joining and working through political parties, etc. (incidentally, Boomer CBailey's same complaint about Xers). Samuel Adams was an individualist and a Nomad as far as I can tell. The only thing which suggests otherwise is S&H's statement that Adams' Prophet peers spoke of Adams' discontent with the younger Liberty generation. If we accept this, then Adams was simply a hardcore cusper ( perhaps 50.1% Prophet and 49.9% Nomad).

S&H offer one comparison which may help us to distinguish Prophets from Nomads:

Awakeners: Grace and union take precedence over laws and rights.

Liberty: Laws and rights take precedence over grace and union.

When you get into the hardcore talk about individual rights, legalisms, and legal structures, you are looking at the more materialistic (and often deistic) Nomads. Then, when you get to the more Hamiltonian desire for efficiency in governmental operations through centralization at the expense of individual rights, you are looking at Heroes. Here it is easy to see how Adams was a hardcore cusper and Jefferson was surely more Nomad than Hero.

On 2002-05-01 08:51, Stonewall Patton wrote:
And for the controversial Boomer/Xer border, here are births from 1955 through 1966:

26-Jan-1961 Wayne Gretzky

04-Feb-1961 Kiff :smile:

10-Feb-1961 George Stephanopoulos

Right in between the Great Gretzky and George Stephanopoulos. Seems appropriate, somehow. :wink: :lol: :lol:

On 2002-05-07 21:47, cbailey wrote:
What about the domestic-terrorist mailbox bomber? I haven't watched the news tonight, but this afternoon there was a APB for a 20 year old college student. Who...from the looks of the photo I saw...looks like a very friendly Millie.

What will S&H make of this?

Yikes! I went to the same school this guy did!

Keep in mind that some of the most mindlessly cold-blooded killers of the late 1920's and early 1930's were first wave GI's. As were most of the notorious bank robbers of that same period.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jds1958xg on 2002-05-08 08:14 ]</font>

Lets add Kepler to that magical 1981 list that now includes
Dylan Kleibold & Eric Harris
Kepler
John Walker Lindh
and Britney Spears.

I don't know. I just don't see the post 1985 crowd producing that kind of violent dissent.
However I don't see my elders or even my peers doing things like that.
We are passive in a really stupid way. Someone my year would do something like that as a prank.
I just can't tell. I bet S&H though will use this to justify their younger boundary.

As for the Adamses and Jeffersons...
(sounds like tv shows) Sam Adams was a total nutjob that had to borrow clothes to go to the Second Continental Congress because he had spilled ink all over his writing manifestos.
This reminds me of Franklin, who used to take nude "air" baths.

Both certainly came of age in the First Great Awakening.
The Adams-Adams differences remind me of the Franklin-Franklin differences, between a radical elder and a stay the course youth (Franklin's son was the Loyalist governor of New Jersey)
John Adams just seems like a total cranky old man.
He passed away in an Awakening too I think (1826?) while I believe Sam Adams died in the crisis (1793?)

Sorry..Helder, not Kepler...
Too much astronomy homework.

On 2002-05-08 08:38, Ty Webb wrote:

As for the Adamses and Jeffersons...
(sounds like tv shows) Sam Adams was a total nutjob that had to borrow clothes to go to the Second Continental Congress because he had spilled ink all over his writing manifestos.

Why is that nutty? Wouldn't a nuttier person have walked into such official proceedings in the stained clothes?

This reminds me of Franklin, who used to take nude "air" baths.

Now that is nutty! But how is S. Adams like this? I don't see it.

Both certainly came of age in the First Great Awakening.

Yes, but S. Adams (1722) is even on S&H's border (1724). S. Adams was not a team player like his Prophet peers. He was an individualist and a Nomad in so many ways, what with his fiery oratory, his rabble-rousing, and his disdain for organized political parties, etc. To my mind, the only thing which locks him into the Prophet generation is S&H's claim that Adams' peers described his contempt for the younger generation, presumably Liberty. If accurate, then all I can conclude is that he was 51% Prophet and 49% Nomad.