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Thread: Generational Boundaries - Page 61







Post#1501 at 07-02-2002 04:38 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-07-01 21:07, Kevin Parker '59 wrote:

Yeah, Justin, that's pretty much it. But who said anything about a conspiracy? Perhaps you've been hanging out with Stone too long :smile:
Huh?








Post#1502 at 07-02-2002 06:44 AM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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I'm sorry, Justin, but everything wasn't a bed of roses for late Boomers either. You Xers don't have a monopoly on things sucking.
I hate to say this, but Marc has a point.

At least YOUR parents didn't get divorced and move you around every few years. Were you ever a latchkey child? I was. And I bet you'll never have to work in a minimum wage crap job to put yourself through college like I had to.
I also didn't get to come live back at home with my parents when I was 22. I actually had to do it all on my own.


_________________
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Heliotrope on 2002-07-02 04:54 ]</font>







Post#1503 at 07-02-2002 07:11 AM by Virgil K. Saari [at '49er, north of the Mesabi Mountains joined Jun 2001 #posts 7,835]
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Whinger comes to mind...with these tales of little woes. Buck up, justin. HTH







Post#1504 at 07-02-2002 07:29 AM by Stonewall Patton [at joined Sep 2001 #posts 3,857]
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On 2002-07-02 05:11, Virgil K. Saari wrote:

Whinger comes to mind...with these tales of little woes. Buck up, justin. HTH
Yes, but who is whinging more, Justin or the Boomers here? And of course, why all the whinging in the first place?







Post#1505 at 07-02-2002 08:29 AM by Justin'79 [at Copenhagen, Danmark joined Jul 2001 #posts 698]
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"Jones" for the love, peace, prosperity and security that was promised them as children back in the late High/early Awakening, then cruelly denied as young Unravelling era adults.

My name is Chet.
I was just pointing out the phrasing and how silly it was, as if a person had denied these things to this group of people.

Susan, my brother lived at home until he was 25. My cousin is 25, and he still lives at home.
And you were a 70s latch key kid?
Weren't you like 13 by 1971?
That's teenager by my standards.
When I was in school as a kid, the let the older kids go home first so they could watch the younger kids.
So aren't you more of a latch key babysitter?

As for the sit around and go "Oh I had it more rough than you, I'm old..etc etc etc"

Were you guys that Cambodian boy starving in the forest after Pol Pot closed the cities?

Huh?

B-o-o
H-o-o

:lol:

CHET

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Chet on 2002-07-02 06:30 ]</font>







Post#1506 at 07-02-2002 01:14 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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On 2002-07-01 20:32, wrstrutts wrote:

Another thing, I went to the Jones site to reread it and found a lot of stuff on their that S&H mentioned in their books circa 1991. However, I also read their 10 definitions of "jonser" and I don't recall ever hearing any of those definitions before. I do recall a member of the Silent generation saying something to me about "just jonesing around" and I had to ask her where she heard that and what it meant. I haven't heard that expression since. The only reference I can faintly recall is "Love Jones" but I don't recall what it was about. Like I said, the only phrase that I can recall with jones in it is "keeping up with the Joneses". My dad used to say that a lot.
Will, the first thing that came into my mind when I saw the term "Generation Jones" was the song "Basketball Jones" done by Cheech and Chong around 1973 or so. :smile:







Post#1507 at 07-02-2002 04:55 PM by Balanceman [at joined May 2002 #posts 49]
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On 2002-07-01 22:55, Marc Lamb wrote:


"Hey I remember the 86 summit in Reykjavik !!!!"

Ya know, I tend to get a little miffed when you Gen Xers, or whatever wanna call yourselves, go off on your whining tangents...

I was seventeen, in 1973, as I cradled my dying mother in my arms, giving her mouth to mouth in vain hopes of saving her life, 1200 miles away from home.

I was eighteen, in 1974, as I watched as the President of the United States resigned his office in utter disgrace...

I was nineteen, in 1975, as I watched the last choppers fly out of Saigon in utter defeat...

Wanna compare wretched coming of age experiences, Xers? Boo hoo, is right.


What's your mother got to do with Gen theory? You want to compare personal shit then hell, my little sister died when I was 7. She was 2. Personal tragedy doesn't = Generational tragedy.

We grew up during the Reagan years and AIDS blew up so we never had the free love thing you Boom-Booms got.

Hell, I should bitch that you guys got the good rock too. The Who, The Stones, Zepplin. Hell, we got Huey F'n Lewis and the News. Oh yeah, we got Poison and Skid F'n Row too. That sucked.

Some Xers bitch too much, but so do some Boomers. If everyone would STFU with the complaining it would be a better place.

:lol:







Post#1508 at 07-02-2002 04:58 PM by Seminomad [at LA joined Nov 2001 #posts 2,379]
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On 2002-07-01 20:15, wrstrutts wrote:
On 2002-07-01 18:30, Mark Y wrote:
I don't believe that generations can be as short as five years as in the Case of Gen Y (1978 to 1983) that I have seen bantered about on the American Demographics web site.
Where did you see '78-83 there, wr? That sounds more like a Martin & Tulgan definition.

I'm sorry I can't really say. I once read all articles on the American Demographics site and they have so many sub-generations defined that it was hard to keep track of. For instance, they had a Boomer I and a Boomer II sub generations defines. Then to make matters worse they split the Boomer I and Boomer II into five year cohorts and call that something else. They had Gen Y as being from 1978 to 1983 followed by the Echo Boomers 1984 to 1990 or something like that.
Now *THAT* I find crazy: saying that there's a line between 1983 and 1984 but nothing between 1984 and 19*90*? 1990 cohorts were barely in kindergarten (and being sheltered from reality along with many elementary schoolers) when the O.J. trial was decided! I have more but I'm too damn lazy to say it now :smile:







Post#1509 at 07-02-2002 05:15 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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If you are trying to divide consumers into age-cohorts to better design or market your product, then having lots of "generations" makes sense. These "generations" have absolutely nothing to do with S&H theory.







Post#1510 at 07-02-2002 05:16 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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On 2002-07-01 21:27, Marc Lamb wrote:
1958 "I Like Ike"
Just when did the "world" begin to suck?
They Like Ike (Irving Berlin, from Call Me Madam)

The presidential year will soon be drawing near
The people soon will choose their fav'rite son
I wonder what they'll do in Nineteen fifty-two
I wonder who they'll send to Washington

[1st REFRAIN:]
They like Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
They like Ike
-But Ike says he don't wanna

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They seem to think he's gonna

-But Harry won't get out
-They're in for plenty of fights
-Harry won't get out
-He's got squatter's rights

But there's Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
And they know
The votes that he can carry
-But don't forget there's Harry
But they like Ike

[2nd VERSE:]
They won't take Saltonstall and Stassen's chance is small
The same would go for Vandenberg and Taft
And Dewey's right in line with William Jennings Bryan
There isn't anyone that they can draft

[2nd REFRAIN:]
They like Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
They like Ike
-But Ike says he won't take it

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They seem to think he'll make it

-But Harry's on the ground
-And should Republicans win
-When they come around
-He won't let them in

If it's Ike
Your Chief can get on his bike
And his things
A moving van will carry
-They can't do that to Harry!
But they like Ike

[3rd VERSE:]
For nearly twenty years we've had the people's cheers
The Democrats continue to advance
Of course, they could arrange to make a sudden change
But no one's 'round who seems to have a chance

[3rd REFRAIN:]
They like Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
They like Ike
-But Ike says he's not bidding

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They seem to think he's kidding

-But Harry won't consent
-They'll get a sock on the jaw
-Republican President?
-That's against the law

If it's Ike
Your Chief can go on a hike
And we boys
Will see he doesn't tarry
-Please don't do that to Harry!
But they like Ike

[4th VERSE:]
With your permission, sir, we're anxious to confer
And we would like to do it privately
Go on and make your crack, I'll even turn my back
But if you're speaking of the G.O.P.

[4th REFRAIN:]
They like Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
They like Ike
-But Ike says he'll reject it

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They think he'll be elected

-But Harry won't give in
-Defeat he'll never admit
-No one else can win
-He won't stand for it

If it's Ike
Your Chief can get on his bike
Two years more
The month of January
-They can't do that to Harry!
But they like Ike

[5th VERSE:]
It seems that ev'ry Spring they all approach the ring
And cockily keep throwing in their hats
They always lose but then they come right back again
And some of them come back as Democrats

[5th REFRAIN:]
They like Ike
And Ike is good on a mike
They like Ike
-But Ike says he don't choose to

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They know he won't refuse to

-But Harry is content
-To stay there living in peace
-The people pay the rent
-You can't break his lease

If it's Ike
Your Chief can go on a strike
And we boys
Will hand his hat to Harry
-You can't do that to Harry!
But they like Ike

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mike Alexander '59 on 2002-07-02 15:24 ]</font>







Post#1511 at 07-02-2002 06:02 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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"What's your mother got to do with Gen theory? You want to compare personal shit then hell, my little sister died when I was 7. She was 2."

Really? So did I. Her name was Susan. It was in the middle of the night that my mom found her dead... horrible night. I can still her screaming as she ran up and down the street in near hysteria.

I am a Boomer. S&H made quite a few comments in there books about how close "Idealist" are to their mothers. I was no exception to that.

And I still miss her a lot. :smile:









Post#1512 at 07-02-2002 07:18 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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On 2002-07-02 06:29, Chet wrote:
My name is Chet.
I was just pointing out the phrasing and how silly it was, as if a person had denied these hings to this group of people.
okay.

Susan, my brother lived at home until he was 25. My cousin is 25, and he still lives at home.
I was kicked out of my house at age 17 because my mother was a drunk and pill addict and unable to deal with parenthood anymore and so I had to move in with my dad who traveled all the time and had a new baby (my 27-year old half brother who I never got to know) and a wife who couldn't stand the sight of me because I brought to mind his ex-wife (my mother). I lived with my mother briefly in 1985 but the agreement was it would be only for 3 months and I would pay rent.


As much as it sounds like one, this is not a whingfest, and I don't feel sorry for myself because of these expereiences. I am using them here to illustrate a point. If anything these experiences made me a strong person and taught me a lot about life. Of course, this does not that I would not much have preferred a less harsh and more cushioned entry into adulthood. I still bear scars that may never heal.

And you were a 70s latch key kid?
Weren't you like 13 by 1971?
I was a 1969 latchkey kid! And yes, in my early teen years too in the '70s.


When I was in school as a kid, the let the older kids go home first so they could watch the younger kids.
So aren't you more of a latch key babysitter?
I did my share of babysitting too, yes, but not until 1972.

As for the sit around and go "Oh I had it more rough than you, I'm old..etc etc etc"
I'm sorry you see it that way. I am in no way trying to make myself more of a martyr than you or anyone else. I am simply stating a fact. I am also not saying that Jonesers had it worse than Xers. It depends on the individuals we're talking about. The fact remains that my early years were harsher than yours (at least from what I am aware of but maybe there are things you don't talk about), but that's just you and me--individuals--so it doesnt really matter where generations are concerned anyway. So if making an observation based on facts makes me a clueless old fuddy duddy who is trying to lord it over "you kids who have it so good today," blah blah blah, then so be it. I can't change the way you feel. But that doesn't mean you're not dead wrong.
Were you guys that Cambodian boy starving in the forest after Pol Pot closed the cities?

Huh?
Huh?

B-o-o
H-o-o
Here's a Kleenex.

:lol:

Carry on, fellow 4Ters. I apologize if the discussion is getting a little too heated. But sometimes these discussions can stir up painful things. That's what makes them so interesting--and addictive.


Marc-- I am sorry about your mother and baby sister.

_________________
Follow the sun.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Heliotrope on 2002-07-02 17:51 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Heliotrope on 2002-07-02 19:27 ]</font>







Post#1513 at 07-02-2002 07:35 PM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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I would guess the world begins to suck as soon as one reaches age 15.

Pax,

Dave Krein '42







Post#1514 at 07-02-2002 08:02 PM by wrstrutts [at Michigan, b. 1962 joined Apr 2002 #posts 139]
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On 2002-07-02 11:14, Kiff '61 wrote:
On 2002-07-01 20:32, wrstrutts wrote:

Another thing, I went to the Jones site to reread it and found a lot of stuff on their that S&H mentioned in their books circa 1991. However, I also read their 10 definitions of "jonser" and I don't recall ever hearing any of those definitions before. I do recall a member of the Silent generation saying something to me about "just jonesing around" and I had to ask her where she heard that and what it meant. I haven't heard that expression since. The only reference I can faintly recall is "Love Jones" but I don't recall what it was about. Like I said, the only phrase that I can recall with jones in it is "keeping up with the Joneses". My dad used to say that a lot.
Will, the first thing that came into my mind when I saw the term "Generation Jones" was the song "Basketball Jones" done by Cheech and Chong around 1973 or so. :smile:
Wha???? I never heard of that song.
Will Strutts - Whatever!
B: Sep 1962







Post#1515 at 07-02-2002 08:05 PM by wrstrutts [at Michigan, b. 1962 joined Apr 2002 #posts 139]
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On 2002-07-02 14:58, Agent 24601984 wrote:
Now *THAT* I find crazy: saying that there's a line between 1983 and 1984 but nothing between 1984 and 19*90*? 1990 cohorts were barely in kindergarten (and being sheltered from reality along with many elementary schoolers) when the O.J. trial was decided! I have more but I'm too damn lazy to say it now :smile:
My point exactly. How absurd can we get when we define generations in smaller and smaller cohorts? I call it the slice n dice generational theories.
Will Strutts - Whatever!
B: Sep 1962







Post#1516 at 07-02-2002 08:13 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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Wha???? I never heard of that song.
I have. But I dont think it ever made it into the Top 20 of 1973.
It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks, you make a pet out of it.
- Charles Bukowski







Post#1517 at 07-02-2002 08:34 PM by Child of Socrates [at Cybrarian from America's Dairyland, 1961 cohort joined Sep 2001 #posts 14,092]
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On 2002-07-02 18:13, Heliotrope wrote:

Wha???? I never heard of that song.
I have. But I dont think it ever made it into the Top 20 of 1973.
It was on their album Los Cochinos. Chicago AM radio stations played it a lot that fall.








Post#1518 at 07-02-2002 09:47 PM by zzyzx [at ????? joined Jan 2002 #posts 774]
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I'm sorry you see it that way. I am in no way trying to make myself more of a martyr than you or anyone else. I am simply stating a fact. I am also not saying that Jonesers had it worse than Xers. It depends on the individuals we're talking about. The fact remains that my early years were harsher than yours (at least from what I am aware of but maybe there are things you don't talk about), but that's just you and me--individuals--so it doesnt really matter where generations are concerned anyway. So if making an observation based on facts makes me a clueless old fuddy duddy who is trying to lord it over "you kids who have it so good today," blah blah blah, then so be it. I can't change the way you feel. But that doesn't mean you're not dead wrong.
I personally feel that as a whole, the late Boom and early "X"(late fifties and early 'sixties) had it very bad. They grew up in a racist, hate-filled society and in the throes of Vietnam, came of age in the most malaise-filled time in American history and were just starting out in the worst recession since the Great Depression. People compain of the so-called "13th Gen" as being "Xers" and slackers, but when I talk to people who are purportedly in the Boom, it's very hard to agree that core-X was worse.







Post#1519 at 07-02-2002 09:59 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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"Marc-- I am sorry about your mother and baby sister."

Thanks, Ms. Susan. Tough times can make for tough... something. I still haven't figure that out yet. :smile:









Post#1520 at 07-02-2002 09:59 PM by Chicken Little [at western NC joined Jun 2002 #posts 1,211]
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On 2002-07-02 19:47, Mark Y wrote:
I'm sorry you see it that way. I am in no way trying to make myself more of a martyr than you or anyone else. I am simply stating a fact. I am also not saying that Jonesers had it worse than Xers. It depends on the individuals we're talking about. The fact remains that my early years were harsher than yours (at least from what I am aware of but maybe there are things you don't talk about), but that's just you and me--individuals--so it doesnt really matter where generations are concerned anyway. So if making an observation based on facts makes me a clueless old fuddy duddy who is trying to lord it over "you kids who have it so good today," blah blah blah, then so be it. I can't change the way you feel. But that doesn't mean you're not dead wrong.
I personally feel that as a whole, the late Boom and early "X"(late fifties and early 'sixties) had it very bad. They grew up in a racist, hate-filled society and in the throes of Vietnam, came of age in the most malaise-filled time in American history and were just starting out in the worst recession since the Great Depression. People compain of the so-called "13th Gen" as being "Xers" and slackers, but when I talk to people who are purportedly in the Boom, it's very hard to agree that core-X was worse.
Thank you, Mark.
It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks, you make a pet out of it.
- Charles Bukowski







Post#1521 at 07-03-2002 12:37 AM by [at joined #posts ]
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By the way, Michael Alexander, I appreciated your sharing of the little "I like Ike" ditty. These lines especially caught my eye:

That makes Ike
The kind o' feller they like
And what's more
They seem to think he's kidding

-But Harry won't consent
-They'll get a sock on the jaw
-Republican President?
-That's against the law


Ah, the GOP were so desparate that year... Did they opt for the contentious Paleo-conservatism of Robert "Mr. Republican" Taft that year? Nope, they liked Ike. Did they opt for more of the McCarthy-esque "red-baiting" that year? Nope, that peaked during the Truman years. Did they opt for Arthur M. Schlesinger's "Vital Center" that year? Yep.

But since I've come to learn that no one really clicks on my links, here at T4T.com, here's the sum of what the GOP opted for with "I like Ike":

A President's First Term:
Eisenhower's Pursuit of "The Middle Way"
By Louis Galambos and Daun van Ee
Historians of the twenty-first century will place the first administration of President Dwight David Eisenhower primarily in two contexts. One involves what many see as a swing in the industrial nations of the world away from national public programs stressing security and equity toward greater reliance on the private sector. The other basic context involves the strategy Eisenhower employed to wage the Cold War. While not the author of that strategy, he inherited, modified, and sustained what would arguably be the most successful diplomatic initiative of the twentieth century.

As president, Eisenhower was determined to reverse the trend he saw in U.S. domestic policy toward greater federal involvement in the affairs of the states, localities, and private citizens. Not all who received help were poor or powerless. He began to collect information on domestic policy and formulate his own concept of a domestic program.

Eisenhower did not want to roll back history, junking federal policies that in his view had proven successful. As he told his brother Edgar during an unguarded moment, "Should any political party attempt to abolish Social Security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history." He was in fact willing to strengthen those federal programs that had good track records and even to introduce new measures on a selective basis. But at the same time, he wanted to prune programs such as those in public power and agricultural subsidies, whose costs he thought far outweighed their benefits to the nation. If successful, he would slow and perhaps even stop the growth of the administrative state. This was his concept of the "Middle Way."


Sound like the start of a new "conservative era"? Hummmm...









Post#1522 at 07-03-2002 08:20 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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I like that verse too. My folks had a bunch of records from fifties muscials, Call me Madam, The Pajama Game, The Student Prince, etc. Call me Madam was my favorite and we used to play it all the time when I was a little kid. In the sixties my parents were quite conservative (Nixon-Goldwater-Nixon). I thought the Beatles were bad, and our next-door neighbors who had voted for *Johnson* as benighted.

In the primary grades I had a friend named Tom Kennedy, who identified himself as a Democrat. I said I was a Republican (later I was chagrined to find out that my folks were independents). Once we were talking and Tom asked wouldn't it be great if everybody's Dad made the same amount of money? I replied that then everybody would have the same toys and that would be boring. He agreed that this would be a bad thing and that was the extent of my earliest political thinking :smile:







Post#1523 at 07-03-2002 09:37 AM by wrstrutts [at Michigan, b. 1962 joined Apr 2002 #posts 139]
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On 2002-07-03 06:20, Mike Alexander '59 wrote:
I like that verse too. My folks had a bunch of records from fifties muscials, Call me Madam, The Pajama Game, The Student Prince, etc. Call me Madam was my favorite and we used to play it all the time when I was a little kid. In the sixties my parents were quite conservative (Nixon-Goldwater-Nixon). I thought the Beatles were bad, and our next-door neighbors who had voted for *Johnson* as benighted.

In the primary grades I had a friend named Tom Kennedy, who identified himself as a Democrat. I said I was a Republican (later I was chagrined to find out that my folks were independents). Once we were talking and Tom asked wouldn't it be great if everybody's Dad made the same amount of money? I replied that then everybody would have the same toys and that would be boring. He agreed that this would be a bad thing and that was the extent of my earliest political thinking :smile:
Yeah, but you grew up in ultra-conservative Michigan Bible belt aka the west side of the state. Even when I was going to Western Michigan in the mid-80's, it was a very conservative leaning city. The city of Kalamazoo had banned the WMU beginning of the year party near Knollwood apts. I had to have a pass to get to my apartment because of the injunction. The campus police called themselves the Dept of Public Safety. We always called them the Dept of Revenue enhancment since they loved to fine students.
Will Strutts - Whatever!
B: Sep 1962







Post#1524 at 07-03-2002 10:58 AM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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No, I grew up in Milwaukee Wisconsin. Went to college there and grad school in Madison. After I got my Ph. D. in chemical engineering in 1988 I took a job at Upjohn in the Fermentation area, just a block or so south of where you interned, where all the odors came from.

West Michigan is a nice place to live. Very affordable and it never gets really cold in the winter like it did back home. It *is* culturally conservative (but I'm an old fogey now so I don't mind). Back in Milwaukee there was a bar on every corner, whereas here it's a church :smile:

In Wisconsin all the student unions had bars in them, and we were one of the last states to raise the drinking age to 21 (my '65 brother drank legally at 18). Student unions here in Michigan aren't even called unions (I think they use the term student center) and they don't have bars in them.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Mike Alexander '59 on 2002-07-03 09:02 ]</font>







Post#1525 at 07-03-2002 11:59 AM by zzyzx [at ????? joined Jan 2002 #posts 774]
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07-03-2002, 11:59 AM #1525
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In Wisconsin all the student unions had bars in them, and we were one of the last states to raise the drinking age to 21 (my '65 brother drank legally at 18). Student unions here in Michigan aren't even called unions (I think they use the term student center) and they don't have bars in them.
Gee...I wonder why Wisc didn't want to raise it's drinking age :smile:
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