Millions? In the U.S.? Just a tad optimistic, me thinks...Originally Posted by sean '90
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Millions? In the U.S.? Just a tad optimistic, me thinks...
I'm not too certain about that. After the experience of both world wars, I doubt that anyone would want to see another one. Think about the sheer amount of destruction caused by the second world war. Now imagine a war on this scale fought with nukes.
The threat of nuclear warfare may be the best remedy for war. Since the dropping of nukes on Japan, we have avoided nuclear war for over 60 years. Recently, both Pakistan and India became nuclear powers. Both nations might be fighting a major war right now, but the threat of MAD has helped to keep the peace thus far. It is impossible to come out ahead in the event of a nuclear war (unless it is one-sided).
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er
Actually, my reading of recent posts shows that most Millennials in this thread are not authoritarian. And keep in mind that Millennials make up large numbers of the opposition to growing authoritarianism. And I do have an issue with the portrayal of Civics as worshipping of authority. If that were the case, then the Glorious Revolution, American Revolution, and much of the prior Crisis could not have turned out like they had. When I think of people like Thomas Jefferson or J.R. Oppenheimer, as well as most Civics I read about, they are opposed to despotism, and believe strongly in freedom, liberty, and democracy.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er
MILLIONS? LOL!!! Keep dreaming. They aren't slurs when they are the truth.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Hmmm, the Blue vMeme is strong with this one...
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
That's why I don't like S&Hs use of the term "collectivistic" as if were a synonym of community-mindedness. You can be community-minded without being authoritarian-leaning collectivists.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
My god stop replying to him. I didn't ignore him so I could read a whole thread of you quoting his every word.
The number of millions refers to monarchists worldwide, dude. I know full well there aren't millions of monarchists in the U.S. Not all monarchists in this country necessarily support a monarchy for the United States.
82% of the British population supports the monarchy. That qualifies as millions, if you ignore all other nations on Earth. There are millions more scattered in countries around the world. Georgia is even likely to restore its monarchy.
Could it not be argued that most of those 82% support the monarchy precisely because it is confined to a ceremonial, non-policymaking role? If the monarchy actually became powerful again (or at least not impotent), I bet you $5000 you'd see those numbers turn around. The British people love the glamor and ceremony of the monarchy, but I'm thinking they prefer being able to elect their officials.
Agreed. I'll admit to being somewhat fond of the British Monarchy myself... remembering precisely where i was, and what i was doing, the night Diana died. The Royal Pomp And Circumstances are fascinating and incredible, and even their immense concentrated wealth can be useful from the standpoint of historic preservation... for example, something like 90% of the "City Of Camden" (i.e. borough of London) is owned by the Prince, Lord or Duke of Wherever.
But they are flawed human beings like everyone else. They are, essentially, paid National Heroes... examples of proper conduct and behaviour for British citizens to emulate... and they haven't exactly done a bang-up job of it lately, IMHO. I certainly would not want them ruling over me by Divine Right.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King
I don't know what's worse, that, or the Mean Green Meme.
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
Meh, I don't really think the "Mean Green Meme" concept, or at least Ken Wilbur's popularized version of it, is really validI don't know what's worse, that, or the Mean Green Meme.
From the Entangling Alliances thread:
Pat, on second though I ran into this paper criticizing the Mean Green Meme concept as nonsense based on misinterpreting surface beliefs systems with the deep conceptual structures that characterize the vMemes (for example, there can be absolutistic Blue belief systems with egalitarianism, anti-racism, social liberalism, democratic government or similar ideas in them, the paper labels such Blue belief systems as "Liberal Blue," that can be mistaken as Green when taken at face value), clearly shows that the data does not support the MGM concept, and also criticizes folks like Ken Wilbur for falling for personal prejudices and raping the ideas of Clare Graves in general.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Personally, I think they are all wrong. I think postmodernism (i.e., the "green vMeme") is a juvenile form of integral. This is not entirely without precedent. Jenny Wade, someone other transpersonal researchers and integralists respect and sometimes cite, believes Green is a varation of Orange.
I propose that PoMo utilizes advanced formal and postformal operational awareness (late logic/verstand, early vision-logic/ vernunft), which one would expect of the next "level". But it does so while still trapped in Orange's basic ontology, i.e., "Flatland". Ergo, Green is a pseudo-vMeme.
I also propose that something like this has happened before. In the High and Late Middle Ages, Europe was awash in Scholasticism. What was Scholasticism other than Faithworld trying to bend logic to it's cause? Heck, the Islamic world is awash in that now. I call this pseudo-vMeme Black&White, both for it's self-conscious absolutism and for the color of the Dominican order St. Thomas Aquinas belonged to (the most famous Scholastic of them all).
Green is effectively Flatland using vision-logic. As Orange Flatland collapsed everything to the objective side creating such beauties as epiphenomenalism and eliminative materialism, Green Flatland tried to free us from this oppressive objectivism by using newly acquired intersubjective tools (semiotics, hermeneutics, etc . . . ) to discredit and "deconstruct" objectivism without replacing it with anything. So modernism kills the Subject and postmodernism kills the Object, and we are left with . . . nothing. That's not integration. That's annihilation. We are effectively left with nihilism, or at least with some "anti-oppression" screed so steeped in radical relativism that it's only invoked authority is whatever rule the author conjures up from his/her solipsistic universe. [/rant]
I see Integral (Yellow or whatever) as truly the next vMeme to hit critical mass, and I see it happening with the next awakening. If we are really, really lucky, such a threshold will be crossed with this 4T, but I am not holding out too much hope since the Boomer Prophets have been so disappointing thus far in comprehensively advancing the "vMeme pool" (arguably more the Prophet's job than others').
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
If you'd listen to the ordinary Britons, they're absolutely fed up with the arrogance of elected politicians. I wouldn't mind the monarchy ruling, plus, daring to say otherwise verges on misogyny and homophobia.
Ugh, reading the reviews of that book makes me feel like I'm drowning in New Age woo...
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
Huh? Not wanting the monarchy in a policymaking role is misogynistic and homophobic? I'm really confused.
Also, maybe they're sick of politicians (who isn't?), but are you honestly so naive you think Britons would get behind some sort of warped "return" to the Middle Ages? Wait, don't answer that, I know you are.
Actually, I don't even think the royal family would want to govern for real. It's pretty comfy living the way they do without having to make stressful decisions.
You should see her next book on sex! But her actual research on (her equivialent of) Orange and Green is very interesting.
Actually, it's my suspicion that New Age woo-woo, though usually regressive in and of itself (lots of Purple, some Red, some Blue), will play a role in the coming advent of the Integral level. New Age, and much of Fundamentalism for that matter, are indicative of a yearning for subjectivity (i.e., philosophically speaking, more prosaically one could call it spirituality) in a modernist world that believes that only what can be measured is real -- a world of objective surface but no subjective interior (except as "epiphenomenon").
It is not breaking out of this prison, or rather destroying the prison and leaving everyone stranded on a deserted island, that condemns postmodernism (hardcore Green). The subjective impulse seen in fuzzy woo-woo, as well as in some manifestations of harsh other-worldliness, must be integrated with the ontological insights and tools of PoMo. One would think we would end up with a bigger mess as a result, but I think we would actually get more than the sum of the parts (Thank God).
FWIW
Americans have had enough of glitz and roar . . Foreboding has deepened, and spiritual currents have darkened . . .
THE FOURTH TURNING IS AT HAND.
See T4T, p. 253.
The thing that really ticks me off is when PoMos and New-Agers start going in an anti-science direction, PoMos attacking Orange as if was just another Blue dogma and New Agers whining about "scientific fundamentalists" and/or "fundamentalist atheists" when scientists call BS on the latest loony woo. To me the proper role of Green is to counterbalance "GDP growth is the be all to end all in economic policy, screw the lazy welfare queens," "he who dies with the most toys wins," thinking, treating people like cogs, in a machine, etc. negitive, dehumanizing side of Orange. Sadly, Green seems to like biting the hand that feeds it.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.
-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism
It will be up to Yellow to fix this.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er
Women and gays can ascend to leadership positions (a.k.a. the throne) in monarchies far easier than in republics. The position of "big cheese" of the realm is inherited, not elected. The traditional Anglomonarchist position is essentially what Montesqueiu promoted back during the Enlightenment. How on Earth is that "from the Middle Ages"?The Queen officially controls all government. They have to make stressful decisions in their life and they do it b/c it's their job and b/c it is their duty to do so. This emphasis on duty will be paramount during the 4T, so stop promoting Bush-like sloth and idleness!
It only helps Satan.
Collective self-interest (oxymoron that it might seem) has its implications. Most of us find science, technology, and entrepreneurialism useful in finding new and better ways of doing things. GDP can be distorted into meaninglessness as some (ordinarily big gainers) attach value to 'bads and rip-offs'. For example, we would have a higher GDP if most people started chain smoking so that the cancerweed industry could enjoy the benefits of higher profits and we would spend more money on locally-supplied medical treatments and more intensive use of mortuary services. Somehow I think that an additional ten years of life is itself valuable. Likewise, we would also have a higher GDP if the government sold off the public roads to toll-road concessions that would then impose high tolls even on the two-lane blacktops that I must use to get to work and to the grocery store. Having to pay more for what one gets is not itself wealth except to the recipients.
Much of the material gain that we have known since about 1800 has been the result of technological improvements from reaping machines to cheap materials (plastics, aluminum) and -- for the potential enrichment of life, the gear of electronic entertainment. Such are the results of rational inquiry. So are psychology and economics at their best.
The art of discerning sense from nonsense remains of great value. Reason works in improving life far better than superstition, mysticism, and magical thought have ever done. To be sure, some of the tools of measurement, like GDP, can be distorted; the lives of most Germans did not improve by leaps and bounds between 1918 and 1925 even though the monetary measures (inflated currency) did. Economic activity that is entirely the result of the acceleration of the sale of non-renewable assets or the cornering of the market reflects something other than the objective creation of abundance.
A Reformation (of sorts)
More heroin and amphetamines : Less Skoal and Kools
More botox and ED pharma : Less tanning and oysters
More Newscorpians and CNN : Fewer Mesabi Daily Newsers and Timberjays
More bean sprouts and soya : Less boeuf-tek and Genoa salami
More bullet trainery and jumbo jettery : Less shanks' maredom and sail
More killing of rural people and livestock : Less bombing of urban centers
More Monarchical Numerancy : Fewer minority vetos
More -esses and -ettes in office : Fewer himbos
More financial "services" : Less "goods"
More expression of self : Less variety of values
More sexual congress : Less issue from same
More containerized hydration : Fewer places to bathe
More fear : Less Confidence
More HDTV : Fewer novels
More science : Little History
Much therapy : Little faith
More envy : Less charity
More information : Less wisdom
IN other words, the current Unraveling goes on forever. Oh, I don't think so.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."
"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
How about a re-localized interdependent system with a widespread balance of power with states that are all tired of war? -One can at least dream.
The Power of the imagination is being realized. Being realized is the power of the imagination.
