Originally Posted by Eric the Green

What? At a time when we have by far the most recording of data, culture and science of any time in history?

We are overflowing with databases and archives, and have a significant deficit in creativity and in exposure of what creativity exists.

Right, and rich people can care about things other people doubt have the time or effort available to expend on it. We have a lot of information, but all our formats are vulnerable. We have a lot of stuff, but we've also lost a lot, usually due to a particular work going out of print, and never having between in wide circulation. We're data rich, and we're preoccupied with various styles of Armageddon level destruction, so if course we place a high value on the older culture, because we want to archive stuff for safe keeping... Just in case.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

There are cycles and there are cycles. I suspect that 20 Saecula make up a 1600 year cycle of cycles. I think we are nearing the end of such a 1600 year cycle.

Well 20 saecula wouldn't be 1600 years long because only the last couple were around 80 years long. The ones before were a bit over 100 years long on average and so 20 saecula would be closer to 2000 years.

TV Tropes-End of an Age

Originally Posted by TimWalker

TV Tropes-End of an Age

A Doomsday Like Any Other...

If society is counter-cyclical, then we should consider that we may be entering an era that doesn't fit into the history of Classical Civilization (Graeco-Roman). So may there be a parallel with a phase of a different society?

A proxy for The Decline of the West - the ever increasing average age of toilet training.

Well, this a Centennial year-for the start of WWI. That was the beginning of the end for the European age. Also, as you recall, S&H commented that the first stirrings of the Boom Awakening were in 1964-half a century ago.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

A proxy for The Decline of the West - the ever increasing average age of toilet training.

It's not the stuff that goes into the diaper of an overaged toddler that concerns me, but the similar (if more toxic) stuff that comes out of the mouths of some of our vastly more overaged but toddler-like lords & masters.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

A proxy for The Decline of the West - the ever increasing average age of toilet training.

Do you have a link?

And why is this a proxy of decline? It isn't as if my daughter, who became adept at using the toilet at about 2 years 10 months, versus 2 years 2 months, is having difficulties with life at the age of 19.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

A proxy for The Decline of the West - the ever increasing average age of toilet training.

That's because of improvements in disposable diapers. The new models are so comfortable when wet the child has no reason to use the toilet. Use cloth diapers which are uncomfortable when wet and the kids start using the toilet as soon as they can. My wife used cloth with her daughter and she was fully trained at two.

http://www.thirstiesbaby.com/blog/ho...otty-training/

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Well, this a Centennial year-for the start of WWI. That was the beginning of the end for the European age. Also, as you recall, S&H commented that the first stirrings of the Boom Awakening were in 1964-half a century ago.

I guess it was in honor of this occasion, but American Experience just did an excellent portrayal of 1964. It certainly validated Strauss and Howe's view that 1964 was the beginning of the Consciousness Revolution, as they correctly called the recent 2T (it was not "the Boom Awakening"). I think everyone who posts here would enjoy it. Excellent history; they left nothing out, both liberal and conservative, political and cultural. They even included one of my very favorite songs from the year! 1964 was a door we went through, they said; and we could never go back once we went through it. It was the beginning of our world, they said. Could we go forward into the change? Yes, we could! And did.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

If society is counter-cyclical, then we should consider that we may be entering an era that doesn't fit into the history of Classical Civilization (Graeco-Roman). So may there be a parallel with a phase of a different society?

Always keep in mind that this era is fundamentally the start of global civilization. Trying to conceive of it as another phase in the history of The West, is to miss the point of our post-1890s new era entirely.

"Global Civilization"-in practice this means a mash up of dissimilar cultures, having different roots and dissimilar-or clashing-values.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

"Global Civilization"-in practice this means a mash up of dissimilar cultures, having different roots and dissimilar-or clashing-values.

I think it's more than a mash-up. It means we each have roots among many different cultures. We today have learned as much from other cultures as from Western ones, and they are as much a part of who we are. And so it is with other cultures around the world besides the (former) "West"; they have adopted a lot of western "roots." Integration is happening, especially since all world cultures also have a lot in common at their "roots," as people like Joseph Campbell have shown. Others have pointed out that if you dig deep into the roots of "western" culture, you find the rest of the world. Today in our society of mass immigration, communication and transportation that crosses borders, the values and interests of "other" cultures have become part of our own. It does mean also that the pre-1890 (or pre-1914) Western culture is often devalued today, and there is much worthwhile in it to preserve and propagate too.

I once mistook a superficial cosmopolitanism...for the genesis of a new civilization.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

I once mistook a superficial cosmopolitanism...for the genesis of a new civilization.

What would be great, is if more creative people came along and created the arts and culture with real depth for our new civilization of today. There is some I'm sure, and we can appreciate and promote it. If we start with the first modern artists, like Gaugaun, Van Gogh, Picasso, etc or some early jazz artists, it's easy to see there are many influences from around the world in their work. It is no longer "western" but art for our new global civilization. They were only the beginning. When the Beatles brought sitars into their music, after visiting Rishikesh, then Indian classical music became part of our pop music here. None of that was superficial.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Always keep in mind that this era is fundamentally the start of global civilization. Trying to conceive of it as another phase in the history of The West, is to miss the point of our post-1890s new era entirely.

No, the period of 1989 - 2001 was a sort of "premature ejaculation" vis a vis the dream of a border-less utopia long held by a certain camp. However, since 2001, it is apparent that the world is still rife with major rifts between civilizations (and between civilizations and barbarians) not to mention all the same sorts of ethnic identity rivalries which go clear back 10,000 years to the dawn of modern humans.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

I once mistook a superficial cosmopolitanism...for the genesis of a new civilization.

My idea of superficial cosmopolitanism is the nostalgie de la boue depicted in the Cabaret.

Japanese woodblock prints aren't so superficial in their appeal.

As more and more countries go 4T, we can expect no borderless utopia. I would refer people to a number of books I have quoted in other threads. I have to wonder if cognitive dissonance will set in as different countries repudiate Western notions of human rights; or will some cling to the illusion?

Originally Posted by TimWalker

As more and more countries go 4T, we can expect no borderless utopia. I would refer people to a number of books I have quoted in other threads. I have to wonder if cognitive dissonance will set in as different countries repudiate Western notions of human rights; or will some cling to the illusion?

Some will cling to the illusion until the bloody end - "peace in our time."

During a 4T, you definitely want your Secretary of State/Foreign Minister to be a Nomad.

If most of the world is in Crisis mode, how else can your country survive? (And BTW, I regard WWII as exceptional circumstances-which explains why the lessons learned didn't apply to Vietnam).

Originally Posted by TimWalker

During a 4T, you definitely want your Secretary of State/Foreign Minister to be a Nomad.

If most of the world is in Crisis mode, how else can your country survive? (And BTW, I regard WWII as exceptional circumstances-which explains why the lessons learned didn't apply to Vietnam).

Our President is undeniably a Nomad -- just look at the gangland-style hit on Osama bin Laden.

Obama should have a Nomad for Secretary of State. Someone who has a keen sense of survivalism. Someone who understands that Prophet crusades must be vetoed.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Obama should have a Nomad for Secretary of State. Someone who has a keen sense of survivalism. Someone who understands that Prophet crusades must be vetoed.

Crusades must be vetoed however enemies of freedom and human rights need to be put down with extreme force.

Originally Posted by XYMOX_4AD_84

No, the period of 1989 - 2001 was a sort of "premature ejaculation" vis a vis the dream of a border-less utopia long held by a certain camp.

I assume you read correctly that I referred way further back, a century back to the 1890s, as the start of our current new world civilization.

However, since 2001, it is apparent that the world is still rife with major rifts between civilizations (and between civilizations and barbarians) not to mention all the same sorts of ethnic identity rivalries which go clear back 10,000 years to the dawn of modern humans.

I disagree. The world is not rife with conflicts between civilizations and barbarians. The world is rife between those who are content to be oppressed and those who want freedom and opportunity.