Originally Posted by Odin

I find it maddening that people build fancy houses on some California hillside dominated by fire-dependent Mediterranean scrubland and then wonder why their houses burn down a few years later.

...and the Antipodes and the Californias were His Catholic Majesty's realm.

When Roundheads rule in Mediterranean lands it nearly given that tragedy will ensue. If California and Australia where given over to their First Nationals and Papist grape growers (the vine being a most excellent firebreak) rather than Whiggery the blazes of Glory would be burning unbrightly. Such are the flames of Progress.

Originally Posted by Virgil K. Saari

...and the Antipodes and the Californias were His Catholic Majesty's realm.

When Roundheads rule in Mediterranean lands it nearly given that tragedy will ensue. If California and Australia where given over to their First Nationals and Papist grape growers (the vine being a most excellent firebreak) rather than Whiggery the blazes of Glory would be burning unbrightly. Such are the flames of Progress.

Hardly. The Papists would still not burn. Burning is the key. Historically speaking, white people (Papist or otherwise) see it as destruction. The whole christian model is based on subduing nature, not working with it.

Papist Spaniards or English landlords, it doesnt matter.

A note on Papist (and chiefly Mediterranean) conspiracy.

The goat.

Responsible for the deforestation of Greece, the Balkans and most of the ME, the keeping of this little critter, or worse yet, allowing it to go feral put an end to the great forests in these regions to such an extent that the natural ecology has been irreparably harmed. Granted the practice was begun by the pagans but the Papists continued and even promoted the expansion of this domestic beastie in their travels about the planet.

The goat while it can exist in fire dependent ecosystems, also serves to expand fire culture into areas where it is not naturally the state of things. In the last century most countries with feral goat problems got them under control with bounties. Spain, Lebanon and even the Balkans “gave up the goat” because they recognized the problem. Greece however has refused to acknowledge its problem and as a result, Greece is burning. It is any wonder the goat is identified with satan?

The goat reasonably managed is a boon to agricultural and pastoral communities everywhere. The goat unchecked will spell the end of a healthy ecosystem.

Myk - any progress in putting out the fires yet? How bad is the situation? Best wishes are with you, for what little that's worth.

Yes, I do understand the fire ecologies and bad building and fire-management techniques - here in New Mexico we're getting our act together bit by bit, but it's slow. I think all desert climates have this sort of problem.

Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

Myk - any progress in putting out the fires yet? How bad is the situation? Best wishes are with you, for what little that's worth.

Yes, I do understand the fire ecologies and bad building and fire-management techniques - here in New Mexico we're getting our act together bit by bit, but it's slow. I think all desert climates have this sort of problem.

its hard to say, it does look like they have it under control but some fires are still burning. Being in the city im pretty safe from harm, but everyone seems to know someone who is in some way affected. There's no humidity and no rain forecast, and the death toll is expected to keep creeping up simply because some remains are so hard to identify as even being those of people.

SKABUNGUS

You raise some good points, but two things firstly about what made these fires particulalry bad.

1) places affected range from farming communities to tourist centres. Now there was ZERO moisture in the air and ground on the weekend, plus high winds and hot temperatures. and with no moisture you have one hot raging storm of fire that will literally suck up everything in its path. Normally fires are very efficiently extinguished in this country, but this one was simply too fast and too strong for man to control.

2) the winds propelled burning embers into the air from the trees into households. This is how they say most housefires start. Not from the actual firefront itself.


But you mention Indigenous fire-control methods, and this is an interesting point. Alot of what you see burning is national park, and an accusation you hear from many rural residents (ie: people who actually have to live with nature) is that there has been too much conservation of native forest. Fire prevention methods like back-burning or some restricted logging is hampered by legalities associated with environmental laws that the city-dwelling greenies help to prop up, and as such there is too much 'fuel', if you will, on the ground. Even prior to white settlement, Indigenous Australians routinely lit controlled fires to try and keep nature at bay.

The biggest reminder of all this is that man will never totally triumph over nature. I see similarities here with not only California, but also the Gulf of Mexico (with Hurricanes), The Pacific Ring of Fire (earthquakes and volcanoes) etc. That you whilst you can prepare your population with all manner of training, escape plans, warning systems and durable infrastructure, sometimes, as with Katrina, Kobe and the Boxing Day Tsunami, something so big and awesome will come along that catastrophe can't be avoided. Its a reasoning that i think those who live in say, western europe and other pleasant habitats don't comprehend so easily. Nature is just inherently unstable and hostile. It can't be controlled.

Originally Posted by Odin

If I were Rudd I would be pushing massive investment in infrastructure, including a massive solar energy program (come on, it's AUSTRALIA, put those deserts to good use instead of using ungodly amounts of coal!), a circum-continental high-speed rail project, and massive spending on desalination technology.

oh there's a ridiculous ammount of infrastructure needed. The power-grid has been at breaking point all summer. There's still not enough water, not enough housing, not enough roads, not enough rail tracks. give me a shovel and an hourly rate and i'll start today.

just giving everyone a pile of money doesn't really address why they're needing to spend so much anyway, which has alot to do with the cost of living being too high.

Originally Posted by myk'87

Crazy Fires are raging all around the state i live in, wiping entire towns off the map.
Though weather disasters aren't really related to sociological trends, its still probably timely occasion to bump this thread. I might do a breakdown of generational roles in this calamity.

I live in a town (Bendigo) where some suburbs were affected by the fires, the public reaction to these fires I get a feeling is very 4T. The 4T has started in OZ, probably the financial crisis triggered it or this. The sheer level of destruction reflects the state of our institutions and their inability to foresee such a disaster happening and preventing the destruction and lost of lives which occurred.

Originally Posted by Tristan

I live in a town (Bendigo) where some suburbs were affected by the fires, the public reaction to these fires I get a feeling is very 4T. The 4T has started in OZ, probably the financial crisis triggered it or this. The sheer level of destruction reflects the state of our institutions and their inability to foresee such a disaster happening and preventing the destruction and lost of lives which occurred.

its about time! the effects of the financial crisis don't seem as bad here as it is in Europe right now, but ive been on the dole since november and the queues are getting longer for sure...

were you around for the ash wednesday fires in 83? could you draw a comparison in social reactions to these two events, be they similar or different?

So Australia in now in a 4T with two themes-economic and environmental?

Sometimes I'm reminded how much Aussies are like us Murrcans.

"We've lost two people in my family because you dickheads won't cut trees down," Warwick Spooner told Nillumbik Mayor Bo Bendtsen at a meeting on Tuesday night.

"Dickheads". Superb.

Originally Posted by myk'87

SKABUNGUS

You raise some good points, but two things firstly about what made these fires particulalry bad.

1) places affected range from farming communities to tourist centres. Now there was ZERO moisture in the air and ground on the weekend, plus high winds and hot temperatures. and with no moisture you have one hot raging storm of fire that will literally suck up everything in its path.

Yes, unusual weather patterns are problematic....but only when a strong fire management regime is not present. A strong fire management regime is one that focuses on eliminating invasive exotic vegetation and SETTING FIRES FREQUENTLY TO MAINTAIN THE NATIVE STATE OF THINGS.

Normally fires are very efficiently extinguished in this country, but this one was simply too fast and too strong for man to control.

Here you highlight the heart of what I'm getting at. The philosophy of attacking fire and putting it out IS THE PROBLEM. It's a very european approach that serves only to make the problem worse. It is this european cultural worldview that is the heart of the problem. The idea is to not arrive at a time when fares as, as you say, are "very efficiently extinguished" Instead, one must light them early and often. Annually in a rotation is best.

2) the winds propelled burning embers into the air from the trees into households. This is how they say most housefires start. Not from the actual firefront itself.

Again, european worldviews are to blame. In a fire-based ecosystem, you are supposed to build your bloody house out of stuff that doesn't burn. In a fire-based ecosystem, where fire is present all the time, you wont have fuel load substantial enough to produce glowning embers propelled any significant distance.

But you mention Indigenous fire-control methods, and this is an interesting point. Alot of what you see burning is national park, and an accusation you hear from many rural residents (ie: people who actually have to live with nature) is that there has been too much conservation of native forest.

If it is in fact native forest, it will actually benefit from periodic burning just as the western lodge pole pine forests of Montana, Wyoming and other places were native forests are fire dependent. In these places fire weeds out the diseased trees, fertilizes the earth, releases essential fungi to process nutirents and strengthens the bark of healthy specimens. If it's native national forests, then they should be managed in a native way - with periodic fire. The prevention of fire is a european introduction based on european ideas about fire as destructive--bad worldview to take to the land down under.

Fire prevention methods like back-burning or some restricted logging is hampered by legalities associated with environmental laws that the city-dwelling greenies help to prop up, and as such there is too much 'fuel', if you will, on the ground.

*SIGH* and this is where I get in trouble with urban greenies as well. I can tell of a hundred public meetings where self-informed Boomer greenies, raised on readings of "Walden" believe they have all the answers and that every tree must be uncut, unburned, and allowed to grow to majestic heights. The time for this self-important view is quick fading. Xer pragmatic approaches will institute burn regimes where they should be present. We see this as the US Forest Service staff and management is changing over from Silent and Boomer to Joneser/Xer. There is hope.

Even prior to white settlement, Indigenous Australians routinely lit controlled fires to try and keep nature at bay.

Amen brother! However, if I may nit pick, it was to "KEEP NATURE VITAL AND ALIVE, rather than at bay. To the native peoples, fire is proper housekeeping that provides food, and diverse nature.

The biggest reminder of all this is that man will never totally triumph over nature. I see similarities here with not only California, but also the Gulf of Mexico (with Hurricanes), The Pacific Ring of Fire (earthquakes and volcanoes) etc. That you whilst you can prepare your population with all manner of training, escape plans, warning systems and durable infrastructure, sometimes, as with Katrina, Kobe and the Boxing Day Tsunami, something so big and awesome will come along that catastrophe can't be avoided. Its a reasoning that i think those who live in say, western europe and other pleasant habitats don't comprehend so easily. Nature is just inherently unstable and hostile. It can't be controlled.

Amen. Dont get me started on Katrina.

Originally Posted by Skabungus

*SIGH* and this is where I get in trouble with urban greenies as well. I can tell of a hundred public meetings where self-informed Boomer greenies, raised on readings of "Walden" believe they have all the answers and that every tree must be uncut, unburned, and allowed to grow to majestic heights. The time for this self-important view is quick fading. Xer pragmatic approaches will institute burn regimes where they should be present. We see this as the US Forest Service staff and management is changing over from Silent and Boomer to Joneser/Xer. There is hope.

WTF, there are still ignorant fools who subscribe to the "all fires must be put out ASAP" nonsense? I thought that mindset was consumed in the 1988 Yellowstone Fire.

Originally Posted by myk'87

its about time! the effects of the financial crisis don't seem as bad here as it is in Europe right now, but ive been on the dole since november and the queues are getting longer for sure...

Good Observations.

were you around for the ash wednesday fires in 83? could you draw a comparison in social reactions to these two events, be they similar or different?

I can't say anything about that because that was when I was born roughly.

Australia's wildfires

The burning bush

The worst wildfires on record give Australia a week in hell

"As firefighting crews battled the blazes, authorities blamed arsonists for starting some, and even relighting others that have been brought under control . Police have arrested to two suspected looters and are treating some locations as crime scenes. After touring Victoria for two days, Keven Rudd, the prime minister, called the deliberate lighting of fires 'mass murder.'


"Australians put aside their obsession with grim economic news, and responded to one of their country's worst natural disasters with a mixture of grief and grit akin to wartime. They donated almost A$34m ($22m) to help ravaged communities and about 5,000 people left homeless, on top of A$15m Mr Rudd pledged.

"...Some are linking Australia's heatwave and decade-long drought to climate change...fire seasons were projected to start earlier, end later and be more intense..."

millification is here! i read in the paper today that the government is going to start up a sort of national volunteer program for young people in exchange for crossing out their university debts. stuff like helping with natural disaster relief, delivering meals-on-wheels etc etc.

the US i think already has something like this, anyway paying off uni debts is enough of a carrot to drag even yours truly into a government programme.

Originally Posted by myk'87

millification is here! i read in the paper today that the government is going to start up a sort of national volunteer program for young people in exchange for crossing out their university debts. stuff like helping with natural disaster relief, delivering meals-on-wheels etc etc.

the US i think already has something like this, anyway paying off uni debts is enough of a carrot to drag even yours truly into a government programme.

The Millennial generation is certainly coming of age here in Australia, I've noticed the Millennials in my uni classes. Funny thing I am not that much older (26 vs 18-21) than a lot of my fellow students and also I can pass off as a 18-20 year old very easily.

I am not 100% sure if Australia has entered the 4T yet, however the mood has certainly changed over the past few years. People are very anxious about the future, even if Australia has escaped most of the brunt of the Global Financial Crisis.

For instance consumer spending is down and savings are up, plus our Boomer generation are now fully in control of the public institutions (there are very few silents left in our institutions). Not to mention the temperature of political discourse has reached levels comparable to the interior of the sun. Overall people know that the whole institutional structure of this nation needs to be overhauled, however no action has been taken yet on how this should be done.

Well the Millennials down under are starting to make themselves made hear, One of the things which has emerged in Australia is something called GetUp! which is a massive online progressive activist group. So far it already nearly 600,000 members (out of a population of 22 million).

Please check the site out and tell me what you think about it.
http://www.getup.org.au/
http://www.getup.org.au/about/media/

Also on a regular basis I read the opinion polls published in the news papers and one thing I have noticed in them got me thinking. Namely the support for the Left-Wing Green Party is much higher among the 18-35 group than for the other age groups. At the moment the Greens are polling between 12-15% in the opinion polls, however in the 18-35 group their support is well over 20%. I serious believe it could be even higher among voters who are 18-25 (The Millennial Generation).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226100091068

Also in a country which is not religious (for example 30% in one survey said they weren't religious or spiritual), younger people in surveys are even less so.

http://www.olivetreemedia.com.au/res...ummary-web.pdf

I am definitely convinced Australia has entered a Fourth Turning, the mood has changed dramatically ever since the Great Recession started in 2008. Because of the demand for Australian minerals from China, overall the economy has weathered that Great Recession so far.

Only the areas of the country which have significant mining are doing well economically. In the rest of the country the economy is stagnating and if it was not for the large increases in government spending over the last several years, the unemployment rate would be around 7% as opposed to 5% currently.

To give a personal example, I have been searching for work ever since I moved from Bendigo to Melbourne and for the jobs I have been applying for there have been literally hundreds of applicants for one position. For maybe a few dozen positions at a supermarket which opened recently, there were 800 applicants, which 120 (including myself) were short-listed for. At least when it comes to entry level work goes the only sort of positions in abundance at the moment are in sectors such as Health, Community Services (which have seen spending both private and public increase greatly), along with security services.

I will give why I believe what I have described above has occurred. The Great Recession has affected people's spending habits, through the crash in the stock market and flat or declining house prices. Because in Australia all workers are required to contribute 10% of their income into individual savings accounts for retirement (we call them superannuation funds). When something like a stock market crash occurs, people's superannuation is devalued because it is invested a lot in shares. So people cut back on spending in order to save enough to live off their superannuation funds when they retire.

Also adding to the public's anxiety is the large increase in debt (from a situation of virtually zero debt a few years ago) that governments at both a state and federal level have incurred in the last several years. Despite Australia has a very low government debt by international standards, people are worried that it might only take a downturn in the economy for us to become like say Greece or Spain.

Because of that public anxiety state governments have been embarking on a program of austerity with both tax increases and budget cuts, which in my state of Victoria has triggered protests, especially over cuts to spending in vocational colleges. With the very likely change in the federal government at the next federal election, I can see the federal government embarking on a similar program of austerity in order to balance the budget and to stop government debt increasing any further.

I for one don't believe government debt is a not problem as such for both state and federal governments in Australia. Because so long as it is used for much needed infrastructure projects, increases in certain government spending and certain reducing taxes. Economic growth will increase enough in order to "payback" that debt and then some. As I see the main issue the level of regulations on economic activity, ranging in areas from urban development, to labour market regulations to health care. Along with tariffs and industry subsides, especially to industries which needed to reduce their Co2 emissions (which the carbon tax soon to come into effect is supposed to do). These regulations are all hindering Australia's economic performance. Overall I do believe such a program of austerity which both state and eventually the federal government are embarking on will be counter-productive for the Australian economy.

Trstan! Good to hear from you again. Check in a bit more often than every 6 months.

The invasion of Australia was mentioned in the series Battlefield 360. The Japanese were poised to invade from the Solomon Islands...and to control sea lanes in the south Pacific.

Tim,

Indeed the Solomon Islands campaign was a key moment in the war in the Pacific during World War II. However here in Australia it does not get anywhere as much publicity as the Kokoda Track, in the mountains of Papua New Guinea where the Australian army repelled an Japanese attack on Port Moresby (now the capital of Papua New Guinea).

Because I reckon the Solomon Islands Campaign was a mostly American effort, while the Kokoda Track was an totally Australian effort. We Aussies have for a long time believe we are more important in the world, than we really are.

From time to time I read opinion polls which have breakdowns by age group, so I wanted to make my own observations concerning the Millennials (oldest of which are age 26 now).

At the last federal election (2010) 18-34's according to Newspoll voted 22% for the left-wing Green Party, with the two major parties (Labor and the Coalition) being in the mid 30's for each. The Green vote recorded for 18-34's was much higher than for the 35-49's (14%), the Greens election vote (11.8%) and among over 50's (8%). Also The Coalition and the Labor party both at the last federal election received 43.6% and 38.0% of the popular vote.

On the basis of the opinion poll results I have seen, the Millennial generation are quite progressive politically. However right now they are disenchanted with the major parties or with politics all together, those who are politically active support the Left-wing Greens party. This progressive leaning among Millennials is reflect also among quite high support, relative to the rest of the electorate and older generations for stances such as legally recognising same sex marriages.

Also I would like to add, that I have seen surveys which shown that the Millennials are much less religious than the older generations are (and Australia is already about as secular as Scandinavia). However the major parties have not really made much of an effort to appeal to Millennial voters yet, despite the oldest next year will be 27 and form a sizeable voting bloc.

An observation I have made about our political class versus the electorate as a whole in Australia. Is that the political class at least on social/moral issues is more conservative than the electorate as a whole. I will note that in Australia while the states can legislate for civil unions, it cannot legislate for marriages (which the federal government can only do). Also any territory legislation can be overturned by the federal government.

A bill which would have meant the legal recognition of same sex marriages was recently voted on in our federal parliament. It was defeated in the Lower House by 98-42 and the Upper House by 41-26, even if one of the major parties had allowed a free or conscience vote for it's members, that would have only added an extra 8-12 votes in both houses of parliament.

However opinion polls show that over 60% of Australians support the legal recognition of same sex marriages, with majority support being recorded in all three "major" parties (The Coalition, Labor and the Greens).

I am posting an article I read in The Age a Melbourne Newspaper, this article discusses about the Millennial generation here in Australia and their political activism. An interesting thing I will highlight from this article is that the Youth Climate Coalition, has 70,000 members nationwide. That is probably as much as the Liberal Party and double that of the Labor Party. Also our major political parties have an average age of members in the 50's and 60's.

At the moment no politicial leader in Australia has yet decided to rally the Millennial Generation behind them. Although when a political leader decides to do this, they would certain win a state or federal election.

Australia's youth burn with passion as politicians fiddle

WHAT did the 22-year-old Liberal MP say to the 18-year-old Labor council candidate? That politics was worth it. That therein lay inspiration.
According to Eric Kerr - who was elected to the Wodonga Council last week - the federal member for Longman, Wyatt Roy, painted a politician's life as a noble endeavour.
''This is my career ambition and passion,'' Cr Kerr says. ''Politics is one of the best ways to help and give back to my local community.''
But among his peers, that may be a minority view.
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Evidence suggests people under 30 are disenchanted with electoral politics and feel little connection with political parties. Asylum seekers, climate change and same-sex marriage are clearly the issues the young care about most. And they are engaging en masse with political issues in ways that transcend parliamentary politics. They want politicians to grow up.
The gap in political interest between young and old has grown steadily since 1967, according to data collected for the Australian Election Study, a long-term project at the Australian National University. In 2010, only around 70 per cent of those aged between 18 and 29 said they had ''a good deal of'' or ''some'' interest in politics, compared with 80 per cent of 30 to 59-year-olds and 85 per cent of people over 60.
JOIN IN THE DISCUSSION
TWITTER Please use the hashtag #U30 or mention @theage in your posts so others can see them.
FACEBOOK Join Melbourne University’s Aaron Martin, author of Young People and Politics: Political Engagement in the Anglo-American Democracies, for a discussion on The Age Facebook page, this Monday lunchtime.
Time: from 12pm, Monday November 5
Where: www.facebook.com/theageAustralia
Dr Aaron Martin, author of a new book titled Young People and Politics, says under-30s are impatient at the pace of change and tired of an adversarial system that fosters opposition for opposition's sake.
''I don't think it's apathy,'' the 32-year-old Melbourne University lecturer says. ''Young people say, 'Look, we can join a group and we can address issues that are important to us, and that is a more effective way of achieving things than electoral politics'.''
In 2008, Ellen Sandell left the office of climate change in Victoria's Department of Premier and Cabinet feeling discouraged.
''Mums calling up talkback radio to complain about something got the premier's attention straight away, whereas I could work for six months and not get the premier's attention,'' the 27-year-old says. ''I felt like I could have more of an impact on the outside.''
She is now national director of the Australian Youth Climate Coalition (aycc.org.au), and says the group fought to keep climate change on the agenda throughout 2010.
The Youth Climate Coalition has more than 70,000 members, double the national membership of the ALP. The recent state election review by Labor's New South Wales branch revealed the average age of members is 65. The Liberal Party does not reveal its membership numbers or profile, but in 2005 it claimed a national membership of around 80,000. It has been falling steadily for decades. In the late 1960s, more than 4 per cent of the population were members of a political party. Today that is less than 1 per cent.
Ms Sandell says 1000 Youth Climate Coalition members take part in face-to-face meetings and campaigns weekly.
But the convenience of following a cause online has led some to decry the rise of ''clicktivism''.
Ashley Moloney, a 22-year-old business consultant from Canberra, says young people share political causes online to earn approval within their circle of friends but have no desire to effect meaningful change.
''While today's youth may vocalise some constructive ideas and values via social media, they lack the courage to do anything more than update their Facebook status,'' Mr Moloney says.
It is a cynicism the chief executive of OurSay (oursay.org), Eyal Halamish, encounters often.
OurSay works by identifying an issue, hosting a web forum for people to ask and vote for their favourite question, and then arranging to have the most popular submissions answered by the nation's decision-makers. It attracts mainly young people.
This week it partnered with the Foundation for Young Australians (www.fya.org.au) to fly seven students to Canberra where they questioned the Minister for School Education, Peter Garrett, on education reform.
''You had about 4500 13 to 18-year-olds from across the country campaigning in the last month to get policy questions answered … to go and ask the national minister for education a question that they really care about,'' Mr Halamish says. ''It was the absolute opposite of apathy, the absolute opposite of cynicism.''
Dr Philippa Collin, who works with the Young and Well Co-operative Research Centre (www.yawcrc.org.au), says dismissing online engagement as ''clicktivism'' ignores the way young people's virtual and day-to-day lives overlap.
She says online activism is invariably linked to offline conversations and the search for more information such as what goods people consume.
Dr Collin says Barack Obama's 2008 US presidential campaign offers an example to Australian politicians of how to better engage younger voters, particularly online.
''People didn't just give money, they also mobilised on and offline in massive numbers.
''Australian politicians still take a broadcast approach and view social media as a way of extending their audience and reach. People aren't looking to just receive information, they are actually looking to participate in the conversation, and more importantly to be heard.''
Dr Martin says those under 30 are slightly more likely to vote for the Greens or Labor, but warns that MPs who take the youth vote for granted do so at their peril.
He says young political temperaments were more volatile compared with the more enduring allegiances of their parents.
In 2007 Labor attracted 49 per cent of voters aged between 18 and 24. But in 2010 this dropped to 31 per cent, according to the ANU election study.
Simon Cumming, a 23-year-old student, says although his parents are Labor voters he is so unhappy about the government's recent manoeuvring towards the middle ground he would vote Liberal if Malcolm Turnbull were opposition leader.
Australian Electoral Commissioner Ed Killesteyn has welcomed amendments passed in July to allow people to be automatically put on the electoral roll if it is believed they are eligible based on information from reliable third parties, such as Centrelink and motor registries.
At the last federal election, he said the voices of more than 3 million eligible Australians went unheard due to informal votes, registered voters who failed to vote, and eligible voters who were not enrolled.
In a recent poll by the international social survey program only 42 per cent of young people said they believed it was very important to vote regularly in elections, compared with 84 per cent of older people.
Dr Martin says older people are more likely to view voting as a civic duty, whereas the young are more probing. ''They say, 'Why should I vote? What are politicians actually doing?'''
Ellen Sandell says members of the Youth Climate Coalition include supporters of all major parties, and they resisted viewing climate change through a partisan lens. ''They want action on climate change because it just makes sense to them. They think this should be something that everyone should be able to agree on and are pretty pissed off that it is being politicised.''
The republic debate also crosses party lines. UMR research last month found 45 per cent of people under 30 wish Australia to become a republic, among the lowest of any demographic. A quarter of under-30s were undecided - the highest of any age group - but Zoe Sanders is not one of them.
The 25-year-old associate editor of literary journal Meanjin believes in same-sex marriage and abhors the mandatory detention of asylum seekers but does not find anything anachronistic in her support for the monarchy.
She said many young people ''have grown up with an idea of the monarchy that is about public service. What we see them doing is just opening things, being there, promoting good causes. They are like the school captain of the country.''
Other fault lines among the more than 50 young people interviewed included private school funding, women's rights, and the sorry state of political debate itself.
Kevin Tangga, 18, hears the sighs of disillusionment, but does not echo them.
He emigrated from the Philippines in 2006 and says a return trip two years ago opened his eyes to the violence and deprivation he once thought was normal. Upon his return to Australia, he began volunteering as a youth ambassador with the City of Casey in Melbourne's east.
''Young people see politics as a very dry and boring job, which I don't believe,'' he says. ''It's a stereotype but when you actually delve into it and learn to appreciate it, it is quite a beautiful and democratic thing.
''When I think of politics in Australia I think of equality, fairness, real justice. But when I think of politics in the Philippines, all I can think of is corruption and money, and how money and power take over something that is meant to be fair. We are blessed to have what we have and people take our democratic rights for granted.''