Originally Posted by Hutch74

Democratic underground. It's sort of a partial crossover from another thread dealing with Odin over a similar event (youths running amok) though nowhere near as serious as London close by where I live:
http://www.fourthturning.com/forum/s...778#post385778

Okay, thanks.

Unrelated to the topic, I just so happened to be watching V for Vendetta this evening. I couldn't help but wonder if something akin to that is in our own future.

Originally Posted by Hutch74

Unrelated to the topic, I just so happened to be watching V for Vendetta this evening. I couldn't help but wonder if something akin to that is in our own future.

Heh, to me it's 80's comic book nostalgia. Not too bad a movie.

Do you mean in any specific sense?

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Heh, to me it's 80's comic book nostalgia. Not too bad a movie.

Did you mean in any specific sense?

No, just the general, how they portrayed America and the UK. In the UK events got so bad (mostly created by the Norsefire party), the people voted in fascist government.

Here in the US, apparently events caused us to split up into civil war.

The movie was released in 2006, and as you said the comics were from the 80s..though I haven't read them. But I'm guessing the movie took place around 2020. And I was just thinking..a plausible future based upon what is happening in the world today.

Originally Posted by Hutch74

No, just the general, how they portrayed America and the UK. In the UK events got so bad (mostly created by the Norsefire party), the people voted in fascist government.

Here in the US, apparently events caused us to split up into civil war.

The movie was released in 2006, and as you said the comics were from the 80s..though I haven't read them. But I'm guessing the movie took place around 2020. And I was just thinking..a plausible future based upon what is happening in the world today.

To misquote a violent activist group of the 60s, "it doesn't take a meteorologist to know which way the wind is blowing."

[They called themselves the Weather Underground (a term now co-opted by people with rain gauges etc in their back yards who actually keep an eye on the actual weather locally) and they threw bombs.]

Of course, one wonders how much self-fulfilling prophecy was in some of these prophecies.

Originally Posted by KaiserD2

...He has evidently frequently bribed the police to get information on people of interest to him. He has helped orchestrate both of the last two major shifts in UK politics--to Labor in the early 1990s and to the Tories last year. And virtually every power is terrified of him.

Believe it or not, I think the UK is now entering a 4T over this issue, because the revelations about what the Murdoch chain has been doing could lead to a gigantic prosecution involving most of the leadership of his papers. If, that is, the government has the guts to do it. This would be a big victory for civic virtue, and I am rooting for it to happen.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-08-05/w...ls?_s=PM:WORLD

...Heather Mills, told the BBC that a journalist told her that voicemails McCartney left for her had been hacked.

She said that a senior journalist for Trinity Mirror Group Newspapers once asked her about an argument she had with McCartney in 2001, before they married, the BBC said.
When she asked how the journalist would know about the argument, the journalist "started quoting verbatim the messages from my machine."

...Among those under scrutiny is CNN talk show host Piers Morgan, who at one time was the editor of the Daily Mirror, part of the Trinity Mirror...


...So, I can hardly wait for the same sort of enthusiastic attacks on Trinity Mirror as we saw for Newscorp. Of course, maybe the wife of the Mirror's CEO's will have a chance to shine as she rescues her husband from some outraged Left Wing Idiot!

Originally Posted by Tussilago

Thing is I know the monolithic Swedish press. From long and painful experience, I'm aware of all their tricks of suppressing relevant parts of a story, their half truths and full lies which are spouted daily. I can smell a tainted story from miles away. That's what happened here, so I simply decided to see what foreign papers were writing in comparison. I know next nothing about the British press though. Pardon, but what does "DU" stand for?

"Democratic Underground". It's a Progressive message board created in 2001.

Apparently these riots in London have spread to 3 other UK cities: Birmingham, Bristol, and Liverpool.

We've had our own flash mobs here, but nothing to this extent. One fears if this catches on:

http://news.yahoo.com/britain-burns-...3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

Originally Posted by Hutch74

Apparently these riots in London have spread to 3 other UK cities: Birmingham, Bristol, and Liverpool.

We've had our own flash mobs here, but nothing to this extent. One fears if this catches on:

http://news.yahoo.com/britain-burns-...3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

I love Major Nutter's Bill Crosby-isque response. Pick up your pants and stop being a disgrace to your race.

How can someone be a disgrace to their race? I don't believe that my race is disgraced when someone who looks like me is acting foolish, because at any given moment, the majority of us are just fine. Do people of other races similarly receive such critiques?

I don't condone the London violence, but I'm tired of the scapegoating as well. Individuals ought to be punished for their individual actions individually.

Originally Posted by XerTeacher

How can someone be a disgrace to their race? I don't believe that my race is disgraced when someone who looks like me is acting foolish, because at any given moment, the majority of us are just fine. Do people of other races similarly receive such critiques?

I don't condone the London violence, but I'm tired of the scapegoating as well. Individuals ought to be punished for their individual actions individually.

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/philadel...lly-flash-mobs

Headed to London tomorrow night for 10 days. We have made very few plans. We are staying with a friend that lives in a town about halfway to Heathrow from city center so there are no expensive hotels to pay for. We just have to pay for the flight to get there. There doesn't seem to be any rioting nearby. The only thing I have noticed is that the tours of Westminster for Thursday and Friday have been cancelled as Parliament is being called back into session. I still hope to do all the touristy things.

James50

Originally Posted by wtrg8

http://www.theroot.com/buzz/philadel...lly-flash-mobs

That's neither a response nor a refutation. There are a half billion members of Homo sapiens who are of African descent. What on earth does London or Philadelphia have to do with all black people? I don't feel disgraced any more by this than someone who is white ought to feel shame or disgrace over the white youths who dragged a black kid to death in Mississippi.

Personal virtue and responsibility aren't exclusive to any particular ethnicity. The London looters seem to be a multicultural bunch. Let's leave it at that, and instead of blame-finding, ensure that this does not occur again.

Originally Posted by XerTeacher

That's neither a response nor a refutation. There are a half billion members of Homo sapiens who are of African descent. What on earth does London or Philadelphia have to do with all black people? I don't feel disgraced any more by this than someone who is white ought to feel shame or disgrace over the white youths who dragged a black kid to death in Mississippi.

Personal virtue and responsibility aren't exclusive to any particular ethnicity. The London looters seem to be a multicultural bunch. Let's leave it at that, and instead of blame-finding, ensure that this does not occur again.

This is happening everywhere and mayor's are asking their youth to be more responsible. Nothing wrong with a Mayor to say this. Even the Mayor of London asked the same.

Originally Posted by wtrg8

This is happening everywhere and mayor's are asking their youth to be more responsible. Nothing wrong with a Mayor to say this. Even the Mayor of London asked the same.

I totally agree with them. I am a teacher. All I ask is that this doesn't become a race thing... because it's not.

From the SF Chronicle:

"Those riots triggered a ripple effect among disenfranchised youths in other parts of the city Sunday, and the unrest increased in size and intensity Monday.

Some, including former London Mayor Ken Livingstone, suggested that the Tottenham riot was an unleashing of pent-up resentment over the weak economy, high unemployment and historically deep budget cuts that are decreasing government funding for poor communities and grassroots charities. He blamed a sense that young Britons are facing “the bleakest future.”

Originally Posted by The Rani

Um, yeah, I don't get the race thing either.

I talked about it with some friends of mine from England today, and they feel like it's a matter of people challenging the police and asserting power over them. They can't be everywhere to protect everyone at once, and people know it.

Thy violence over there is surely uncalled for. They may have some legitimate complaints but they don't have a constructive outlet or leadership that can assist their airing complaints. Or maybe they have rejected that avenue. There's just no excuse for burning stuff down and other acts of violence.

Originally Posted by Deb C

Thy violence over there is surely uncalled for. They may have some legitimate complaints but they don't have a constructive outlet or leadership that can assist their airing complaints. Or maybe they have rejected that avenue. There's just no excuse for burning stuff down and other acts of violence.

IOZ retorts:

So you have an entire so-called economy based on theft and expropriation; basically your life must be either precarious true poverty or the illusory security of some or other sort of debt-peonage, which is the foundational theft and expropriation upon which all the profits of finance rest; literally, like, uh, basically, um, half the world is enslaved to the immense extortionist enterprises of state capital--the other half is covered in a three-inch Congo-delta oil slick and is a skein of extraction points. And what really worries you is that some London homebro is stealing some trainers from the Foot Locker? Oh, you worry, how can these people ever expect social change and the advancement of their lot if they don't respect the law. Yo, mah nigs: how can they ever expect it if they do?

Also, more contrarianism:

Man, it's too bad that Mark Duggan wasn't Iranian; all the same assholes who are like, "Oh, the rioting, Oh, the looting, Oh, the humanity!" would be making room for another green ribbon between their LiveStrong bracelet and Kabala string...

If his name had been El-Rodney Al-King and he'd gotten the beat-down in some market square in East Whutupistan, you'd be poring over headlines about Violent protests in response to brutal crackdowns by state security forces...

We, none of us, has any idea what is going on in London, or why. Suffice to say, as someone once did, that had they not rioted, everyone would still be ignoring them.

Originally Posted by The Rani

So instead of ignoring them, now we simply have no idea what's going on.
Doesn't seem like a productive way for them to promote their "cause."

Who said anything about being productive? And who said that we were the ones they were interested in 'promoting' to in the first place?

Originally Posted by The Rani

So instead of ignoring them, now we simply have no idea what's going on.
Doesn't seem like a productive way for them to promote their "cause."

Please dwell on the possibility that they don't have a "cause," at least in the silly geopolitical sense of the word currently in vogue. They are burning a city that does not seem to like them very much. Taking part in the system as constructed likely hasn't been working out for them very well so why not try something new?

Originally Posted by The Rani

I said something about being productive. If it doesn't get you anywhere, why bother?

I would presume, because the other stuff they did didn't get them anywhere either. At least this is a genuine step up from being ignored -- which is arguably a step in the "right" direction.

And yeah, the "all of us" was mostly-inclusive. At least, to the extent that none of us are Londoners...

----
-edit-
I think Copperhead gave it the most reasonable phrasing, given what practically-nil we know. "They are burning a city that does not seem to like them very much". That could be an end unto itself, really.

Originally Posted by The Rani

This made me think of Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction .... "I won't be ignored!"

It didn't get her anywhere, either.

And yet, you remember her all these years later.

Possibly pouring gasoline on the fire:
http://www.mail.com/int/news/uk/6153...ell-riots.html

August 09, 2011 — LONDON (AP) — The leader of a British far-right group says its members are taking to the streets of British cities in an attempt to quell riots that have spread across the country for four nights.
Stephen Lennon, leader of the English Defense League, told The Associated Press that up to 1,000 members planned to turn out in Luton, where the group is based, and others areas that have suffered unrest, including the northwestern city of Manchester.
Lennon said some members had were already carrying out patrols trying to deter rioters, and that hundreds more would join them Wednesday. "We're going to stop the riots — police obviously can't handle it," Lennon told the AP.
The far-right group was cited as an inspiration to Anders Behring Breivik who has confessed to the July 22 massacre in Norway. THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

Originally Posted by Hutch74

Possibly pouring gasoline on the fire:
http://www.mail.com/int/news/uk/6153...ell-riots.html

F*ck, this won't end well.

How about let's hear from someone who is there (notice the burned-out building right behind him).

So very many strong points. I personally am very much in favor of this exchange:

D. HOWE: ...I asked [my grandson] the other day, apropos of a sense that something was going seriously wrong in this country. I said, "how many times have the police touched you?" He said, "Papa, I can't count... there are so many times..."

TV HACK: Mr. Howe... that may well have happened... and, you say it did... I'm not... I'm not going to go against you, but that is... that is not an excuse to go our rioting and cause the sort of damage that we have been seeing over the last few days.

D.HOWE: Where were you in 1981 in Brixton?

TV HACK: ....

D.HOWE: I don't call it rioting, I call it an insurrection of the masses of the people. It is happening in Syria, it is happening in Clapham, it is happening in Liverpool, it is happening in Port of Spain, Trinidad. And that is the nature of the historical moment."

Primary sources, man...