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Thread: Global Warming - Page 72







Post#1776 at 05-26-2010 06:16 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
If you are not duped, then why do you make such statements that you do? I think you need to start with the fact that global warming is happening, that it is killing off species, that it is caused by fossil fuel use, and that plenty of resources exist to convert within a decade to clean energy. If you can start there, then at least you don't raise my suspicion that you are not ready to deal with reality. It is a question of starting with the facts.

You said otherwise, and you also said that you talk to engineers. Who are they, besides employees of the very companies doing the pollution? I think that's a fair question. Do tell. It is not a matter of trust, but of evidence. Comparing the royalities gained by Al Gore, which he probably puts most of back into his work, to BP, which makes hundreds of billions of dollars in profits, is nonsense. Why do you defend it? All these companies refuse to put any resources into alternative energy, yet broadcast propaganda even on the PBS Newshour that they do.

I think, rather than portraying people as "wicked," I am challenging you on the facts, which are wicked enough.
I'm sorry, but you will have to find someone else to flame. Your Manichean world has no place for people like me.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1777 at 05-26-2010 07:40 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
I'm sorry, but you will have to find someone else to flame. Your Manichean world has no place for people like me.

James50
Let's just hope that the oil world (which I think you may help to enable) is going up in flames. What is happening in the Gulf of Mexico may be a good start.

Additional comment. It's not my world alone we're talking about. We live in different worlds, James, because I perceive facts that you don't (and I'm sure you know some things that I don't too). Also, as Bob says, we may have different values.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 05-27-2010 at 12:23 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1778 at 05-26-2010 08:01 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
What we have seen on these forums is that values locked conversations go nowhere. Logic and evidence are not decisive in such conversation.
It's more than values. It's what sorts of facts constitute evidence too.







Post#1779 at 05-26-2010 11:05 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Clarification

Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
It's more than values. It's what sorts of facts constitute evidence too.
Only those facts which support many individual's values constitute evidence.







Post#1780 at 05-27-2010 12:36 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
Only those facts which support many individual's values constitute evidence.
The whole values vs. "reason" (facts, evidence, logic) concern you bring up Bob is valid and worthwhile; although to discuss it might be another more-philosophical thread. I think people do have different values, based partly on their own experience and background, which has led them to their general orientations. I have "new age" and "green" values mostly based on my experiences in the Awakening/2T, plus things like my Dad was a pacifist, etc. Plus each person is different physically, genetically, spiritually, mentally, etc., and has different gifts to express, which are often ignored or supressed, etc.

One rejoiner to your point might be though, as is often said, that "ultimately we all want the same things." Getting down to the root of values, they might end up being pretty universal, with individual differences in degree and emphasis based on experience and background. Perhaps one way for people to be able to see the facts more clearly, then, is to relate them to that more universal level of values.

What gets in the way of genuine knowledge, actions and solutions are frequently our fears, indulgences, reactions, less-than-conscious desires and hurts, habits, grasping and clinging, etc.-- what Buddha called the Second Noble Truth. This is the real cause of suffering, and I suspect that some or much of what you call "values," which can blind us to the facts, are really the fears and attachments we have that take us away from real consciousness and reality. These may be rooted in our animal survival instinct, and given further wing by our human minds and emotions.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1781 at 05-27-2010 04:23 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
Only those facts which support many individual's values constitute evidence.
I would say only those facts that fit their worldview constitute evidence. Your model doesn't explain folly.

For example, the Iraq war. One can choose to support the rationale for war out of values. But values didn't cause Rumsfeld to to cancel planned reinforcements and withdraw troops at a critical time. Values did not cause Bush to take steps to see to it that Iran would be the primary beneficiary of American blood and treasure.

The Bush administration did what it did because their trusted advisors truly believed that a pro-Western democracy would just happen spontaneously like it did in Eastern Europe.
Last edited by Mikebert; 05-27-2010 at 04:26 PM.







Post#1782 at 05-27-2010 04:41 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Post#1783 at 05-27-2010 04:44 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
I would say only those facts that fit their worldview constitute evidence. Your model doesn't explain folly.

For example, the Iraq war. One can choose to support the rationale for war out of values. But values didn't cause Rumsfeld to to cancel planned reinforcements and withdraw troops at a critical time. Values did not cause Bush to take steps to see to it that Iran would be the primary beneficiary of American blood and treasure.

The Bush administration did what it did because their trusted advisors truly believed that a pro-Western democracy would just happen spontaneously like it did in Eastern Europe.
But there also was a lust for power and a greed that was working within the minds of the authors of the Project for a New American Century who launched the Iraq War. Plus an ideology of American imperialism and empire.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1784 at 05-27-2010 10:07 PM by Marx & Lennon [at '47 cohort still lost in Falwelland joined Sep 2001 #posts 16,709]
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Quote Originally Posted by TimWalker View Post
An on-topic post. Will wonders never cease.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.







Post#1785 at 05-28-2010 04:47 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Post#1786 at 05-28-2010 07:23 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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If I understand Calvin correctly, Greenland is warming up faster than it has in the past. The implication is that the ice cap will slide out to sea on a lubricating layer of meltwater...rather than melting away gradually.

I don't know how it would play out, having a huge amount of ice abruptly dumped into the ocean.

Would the result resemble the Younger Dryas?







Post#1787 at 05-28-2010 07:49 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Home, sweet home

Holocene, sweet Holocene







Post#1788 at 05-28-2010 08:33 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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aerosol/cloud interactions







Post#1789 at 05-29-2010 11:29 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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New Scientist May 15-21st has an article on Deniers of all sorts - not skeptics, but those who keep on denying and denying whatever it is they're denying regardless of the preponderance of the evidence. The most important parts of the article are:

1) Their style of argumentation. Which I have seen done on these forums, detail for detail, argument for argument, fallacy for fallacy.

2) That some of them have been traced back to industry mounting an astroturf campaign - including Big Oil "XO" wasting MY stockholder's money on trying to convince people that global warming is an Unreal Marxist/treehugger/materialist*/atheist* Plot Against Our Noble Industry. Bah, humbug. Why can't they compete with alternate energy by innovating liek everybody else?

3) That some of their leaders show signs of paranoid thinking.

Just FYI,

Pat

*Big Oil - claiming their opposition is *materialist* and *atheist*? As the stockpot said to the teakettle, "My, how badly you need a good scrubbing."
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#1790 at 05-29-2010 12:20 PM by Brian Rush [at California joined Jul 2001 #posts 12,392]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Why can't they compete with alternate energy by innovating liek everybody else?
The only way they could do that is to go into alternate energy, which is the innovative part of the industry. Also, it will never be as outrageously profitable as oil can be under peak oil price-hike conditions.

It's all quite carefully calculated. The oil companies know very well they're going to have to get out of the oil business eventually, but there's a graph that can be plotted of oil prices and profits, and a point on that graph where the price becomes so painful that most people literally cannot buy energy. They want to delay the transition until the point of peak profit.
"And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?"

My blog: https://brianrushwriter.wordpress.com/

The Order Master (volume one of Refuge), a science fantasy. Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GZZWEAS
Smashwords link: https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/382903







Post#1791 at 05-29-2010 03:37 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Mediterranean cyclone







Post#1792 at 05-29-2010 04:57 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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more on no-analog communities







Post#1793 at 05-29-2010 05:32 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
New Scientist May 15-21st has an article on Deniers of all sorts - not skeptics, but those who keep on denying and denying whatever it is they're denying regardless of the preponderance of the evidence. The most important parts of the article are:

1) Their style of argumentation. Which I have seen done on these forums, detail for detail, argument for argument, fallacy for fallacy.

2) That some of them have been traced back to industry mounting an astroturf campaign - including Big Oil "XO" wasting MY stockholder's money on trying to convince people that global warming is an Unreal Marxist/treehugger/materialist*/atheist* Plot Against Our Noble Industry. Bah, humbug. Why can't they compete with alternate energy by innovating liek everybody else?

3) That some of their leaders show signs of paranoid thinking.

Just FYI,

Pat

*Big Oil - claiming their opposition is *materialist* and *atheist*? As the stockpot said to the teakettle, "My, how badly you need a good scrubbing."
Pat (glad to know your first name) - anyone who reads New Scientist is a winner in my book. It is one of the only magazines I still subscribe to. Their twitter feed is amazing. I wish I could read them in a timely fashion, but they tend to stack up next to the bed. I am about a month behind, but I never throw them away without reading them.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1794 at 05-30-2010 01:00 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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marine cloud whitening

cloud ships

more...on....

yet more....
Last edited by TimWalker; 05-30-2010 at 01:18 PM.







Post#1795 at 05-30-2010 01:26 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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"crop dusting" over Arctic
Last edited by TimWalker; 05-30-2010 at 01:30 PM.







Post#1796 at 05-31-2010 06:42 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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2010 still aiming to be the warmest year on record

To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1797 at 06-01-2010 07:33 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Solar Cycle

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
2010 still aiming to be the warmest year on record

For years the 11 year solar cycle has been on a cooling trend. Thus, CO2 forcing has been in part countered by well understood solar effects. Various skeptics have thus been cherry picking a warm year in the past and tracing it to a cool recent year and claimed a long term cooling trend.

We've bottomed out. The next solar cycle is predicted to be less intense than the last one, but the slow down in short term temperature gain is apt to reverse over the next several years. Both CO2 and solar forcing are apt to be pushing towards hot. Depending on how the El Nino / La Nina cycle lines up, 2013 could be ridiculous.







Post#1798 at 06-01-2010 08:34 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
For years the 11 year solar cycle has been on a cooling trend. Thus, CO2 forcing has been in part countered by well understood solar effects. Various skeptics have thus been cherry picking a warm year in the past and tracing it to a cool recent year and claimed a long term cooling trend.

We've bottomed out. The next solar cycle is predicted to be less intense than the last one, but the slow down in short term temperature gain is apt to reverse over the next several years. Both CO2 and solar forcing are apt to be pushing towards hot. Depending on how the El Nino / La Nina cycle lines up, 2013 could be ridiculous.
I noticed something in April in southern Michigan: we usually get one last big spring blizzard when a wintry cold front meets summer-like warm, humid air, when the temperature goes from 70F to 25F in one day. This time we had nothing of the sort. In fact we got our last winter snowstorm in the winter.

Welcome to Tennessee, I suppose; we might not replace our apple groves with orange groves, but we might become cotton country if the climate changes enough.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1799 at 06-01-2010 08:56 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
I noticed something in April in southern Michigan: we usually get one last big spring blizzard when a wintry cold front meets summer-like warm, humid air, when the temperature goes from 70F to 25F in one day. This time we had nothing of the sort. In fact we got our last winter snowstorm in the winter.

Welcome to Tennessee, I suppose; we might not replace our apple groves with orange groves, but we might become cotton country if the climate changes enough.
Same in Minnesota. It was in the 60s all April
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1800 at 06-01-2010 09:16 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Bob Butler 54 View Post
For years the 11 year solar cycle has been on a cooling trend. Thus, CO2 forcing has been in part countered by well understood solar effects. Various skeptics have thus been cherry picking a warm year in the past and tracing it to a cool recent year and claimed a long term cooling trend.

We've bottomed out. The next solar cycle is predicted to be less intense than the last one, but the slow down in short term temperature gain is apt to reverse over the next several years. Both CO2 and solar forcing are apt to be pushing towards hot. Depending on how the El Nino / La Nina cycle lines up, 2013 could be ridiculous.
I think you are forgetting about the Icelandic volcanoes. Also El Nino is fading. If we get a La Nina, it will cause cooling. I am afraid short term predictions are little better than guesses; and when the predictions are wrong, there are a host of people who will use the error to discredit the bigger picture of AGW.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton
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