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Thread: Global Warming - Page 77







Post#1901 at 09-03-2010 09:25 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Awe, you're just a baby!
You were saying, my daughter?







Post#1902 at 09-03-2010 09:51 PM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
35 is old now?
If we run out of oil, that's the average life expectancy.

Quote Originally Posted by JustPassingThrough View Post
What if the people who made you stay up at night worrying about it were lying to you?
Yes I have, but I think it's better to end our dependence on a non-renewable resource now then just hand the burden over to our grandchildren. Even if, somehow, it actually turns out that there is a vast amount of oil in some unexplored region of the earth, all it does is buy time until when we use up that resource.

If I am wrong, the only consequence is that the energy policy that we were going to have to adopt anyway is adopted early. Better safe than sorry.

Ever thought that the people that make you stay up all night worrying about multiculturalism, reverse racism, gay marriage, "socialist" heath care plans etc etc etc are lying to you?







Post#1903 at 09-07-2010 10:45 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1904 at 09-08-2010 12:31 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
If we run out of oil, that's the average life expectancy.
And yet, you would spend every second of that "short life" knowing just how alive you really are.

Unless of course you consider pulling a lever for some company, getting married to someone your family approves of, pumping out a couple of puppies, giving your life savings over to a banker to invest, taking out a mortgage on a house you can't afford, and living a completely sanitary, safe, uneventful life to be an accomplishment or "productive life's work." Maybe, eventually, you will be allowed to retire and live from month to month eating canned food and being pumped full of drugs by your C average doctor to keep you alive (helps keep the economy going). If you are lucky, you might die in your sleep an elderly person. Unlucky could mean dying from a painful cancer or Alzheimer’s as your brain eats itself and your family gets to watch you slowly forget their faces.

Sure, that is how society (and especially the owners of our society) would like you to live, but trust me, that ain't living.







Post#1905 at 09-08-2010 01:23 AM by Rose1992 [at Syracuse joined Sep 2008 #posts 1,833]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
And yet, you would spend every second of that "short life" knowing just how alive you really are.
Or slowly starving to death.







Post#1906 at 09-08-2010 03:33 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by Rose1992 View Post
Or slowly starving to death.
That is always a possibility (it is even today), but you will be amazed at what you will eat when you are starving. Humans are the ultimate scavengers. Possibly the best ever to have evolved on earth. We can quite literally eat anything and are very clever at finding anything.

Starvation is also easily avoidable by learning three important skills. Learn how to shoot, learn how to fish, and learn how to gut and clean and animals.

And lest you think I recommend spending all of your time hunting large land animals (those deer are tricky), understand that a cheap, tiny .22 rifle will feed your family better than any hunting rifle. You can get fat eating squirrel, bird, raccoon, rabbit, and even the neighbor’s cat.







Post#1907 at 09-08-2010 10:49 AM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
That is always a possibility (it is even today), but you will be amazed at what you will eat when you are starving. Humans are the ultimate scavengers. Possibly the best ever to have evolved on earth. We can quite literally eat anything and are very clever at finding anything.
Gee -- I thought dogs were the ultimate scavengers! They can find dead meat faster than we can and when it is less rotten. They are also more adept predators than we are. We humans are more strictly predatory because we are less fit to eating decaying flesh. We need meat (in the absence of alternatives) more recently-killed or somehow preserved.



Starvation is also easily avoidable by learning three important skills. Learn how to shoot, learn how to fish, and learn how to gut and clean and animals.
I concede that. But this is also a good time for people to re-learn how to do their own canning, at least in places with a summer bounty and winter bleakness. Venison, by the way, is delicious.


And lest you think I recommend spending all of your time hunting large land animals (those deer are tricky), understand that a cheap, tiny .22 rifle will feed your family better than any hunting rifle. You can get fat eating squirrel, bird, raccoon, rabbit, and even the neighbor’s cat.
[/quote]

Your neighbor might have an attachment to the cat. Deer are smarter than you often give them credit for, and one deer is far too much for one meal. Rabbit is a different matter as meat. It is easier to raise them as meat than to hunt them, as they had to become great escape artists to avoid two of the most tiger-like of predators (one of them barks).
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1908 at 09-08-2010 11:08 AM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by Copperfield View Post
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Starvation is also easily avoidable by learning three important skills. Learn how to shoot, learn how to fish, and learn how to gut and clean and animals.
I'm a bit skeptical about this sort of "survivalist" stuff. If the S&*T really hit the fan, there would be WAY too many folks looking for food to make hunting/gathering a viable option except for those who could somehow defend enough real estate in a remote area.

Shooting, fishing and gutting are not exactly rocket science. By the time I was eight, growing up in WY, I had those skills.

Subsistence hunting/gathering is, however, a much larger topic than shooting, fishing and gutting.
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#1909 at 09-09-2010 11:54 PM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
I'm a bit skeptical about this sort of "survivalist" stuff. If the S&*T really hit the fan, there would be WAY too many folks looking for food to make hunting/gathering a viable option except for those who could somehow defend enough real estate in a remote area.
Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post

Shooting, fishing and gutting are not exactly rocket science. By the time I was eight, growing up in WY, I had those skills.

Subsistence hunting/gathering is, however, a much larger topic than shooting, fishing and gutting.
Well, we were discussing it as a matter of avoiding starvation which is not necessarily the same thing. My father's family was very poor in the 50's and the entire family hunted as a means of feeding themselves, however they were definitely not in a "survival" situation in the sense that you mean. Providing food for yourself and family is only one piece of survivalism.

Situations where a person would need survival skills can mean a number of different things and as such, it's important to a) come up with realistic scenarios, b) develop the skills to cope with those scenarios, and c) have a plan to improve your chances of survival. This doesn't need to involve "collapse of society" scenarios to be useful. For instance, I watched with some amusement when James Lee took hostages in the Discovery building and the police told office workers to move up to the higher floors and hide. Now assuming Mr. Lee had powerful and functional explosives on him as was reported, probably the last place you want to be is higher up in the air (further to fall if the building collapsed). Or what if Lee had decided to take a leisurely stroll to the upper floors to see who forgot to lock the door to the office they were hiding in. Maybe he would like to see if his gun was powerful enough to punch through cheap office furniture. Really, you want to be out in the parking lot having a smoke in that sort of situation. You can be sure that if I am sitting in the office at work and I hear some gunshots downstairs, I already know the building layout and all the emergency exits. I will not be waiting for the police to arrive and give me bad advice while they sit hunkered down behind their cars wondering how to proceed. You already drill for fires. It is no less wise to drill for other dangers that may happen.

So run through some scenarios and plan accordingly. Have a plan for disasters or evacuations. Gather and organize supplies. Plan ahead for 24 hours, 72 hours, or indefinite separation from goods and services. This is a crisis period after all. A lot of bad things could happen. People who expect them to happen give themselves an advantage over people who don't. While you can't eliminate good or bad luck, you can improve your chances.

And you are correct, hunting and fishing are not rocket science, but how many people living in urban or suburban areas have those skills? Thus you already have an advantage if you know how to hunt, trap and clean game. In a societal collapse, cities will implode. Surviving such a crisis literally means outlasting dense population areas. This is also why I suggested that hunting larger game is not always the best idea (at least until the human population came back into balance). Small game is much more readily available and it doesn’t require means of preservation or storage in an emergency.

Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Gee -- I thought dogs were the ultimate scavengers! They can find dead meat faster than we can and when it is less rotten. They are also more adept predators than we are. We humans are more strictly predatory because we are less fit to eating decaying flesh. We need meat (in the absence of alternatives) more recently-killed or somehow preserved.
Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post

I concede that. But this is also a good time for people to re-learn how to do their own canning, at least in places with a summer bounty and winter bleakness. Venison, by the way, is delicious.

Your neighbor might have an attachment to the cat. Deer are smarter than you often give them credit for, and one deer is far too much for one meal. Rabbit is a different matter as meat. It is easier to raise them as meat than to hunt them, as they had to become great escape artists to avoid two of the most tiger-like of predators (one of them barks).
Dogs are great scavengers, but they are carnivores and they lack a lot of the tools humans have (when is the last time you saw a dog climb a tree to pick fruit?). Humans have a much wider range of diet than dogs (including dog). We also figured out a few thousand years ago that we can make dogs do the dirty work for us.

Food preservation is an excellent long-term survival skill and a lost art form.

Rabbits have a hard time outrunning a .22.

Animals can indeed be clever. I was subject to some ridicule in my family a few summers back as I was unsuccessfully hunting a fat groundhog that was digging out the foundation under the barn. Try as I might, he never appeared when I had a rifle nearby. One discouraging day I walked over to his hole (with no weapon) and started kicking dirt into it out of spite. The little bastard came from behind me, ran right between my legs and lodged himself ala Winnie the Pooh in his partially filled in entrance. I probably jumped five feet in the air and could see his fat ass stuck in the entrance with his back legs kicking until he finally squeezed through. My aunt thought it was pretty amusing when she found me standing there yelling and cursing at a rodent.
Last edited by Copperfield; 09-10-2010 at 12:12 AM.







Post#1910 at 09-10-2010 04:40 AM by independent [at Jacksonville - still trying to decide if its Florida or Georgia here joined Apr 2008 #posts 1,286]
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Well if you want some cheap "worst case" insurance, I vote for seeds, fruit trees, etc... Maybe hold some seeds for a heat zone higher than you're at just in case you think it will be that bad - GW is almost wishful thinking because I'd be left with a tropical island full of mangoes & pineapples & passionfruit. I've always had a pretty brown thumb but even I managed to pull a few baskets of peppers and scallions and ginger from the yard so far this summer. A bucket of rice, a can of sesame oil, some water filters, and the normal hurricane survival kit can probably go a long way with fresh veggies from the yard. I don't know about "harvesting" though, each piece is ripening at different times and they're still producing long after first few are picked for dinner. Seems like a little patience and seasonal rotation would be enough to have a constant supply of something fresh.

Anyway, even if there are temporary trade disruptions, there's no shortage of food producing potential in this country. Might suck for the bigger cities if that cheap transport goes away, but it would have to be some pretty crazy scenario to threaten American food security in general. As far as I can tell, there are even plenty of bees if you leave their favorite flowers and don't spray the crops with a bunch of crap. The more likely crisis here is that what we call food actually isn't very good for us and the industrial methods of production aren't very sustainable or good for our environmental health in general. I know that might be disappointing for all us generations who have embraced the Hollywood action dream...but boring things are much more likely to kill you these days...
'82 iNTp
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." -Jefferson







Post#1911 at 09-10-2010 02:22 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
New peer reviewed article questions "hockey stick". I know there are several people on this forum who have studied climate change in depth. What do you make of these:
I have looked into climate change in some detail. I did not concern myself with historical temperature estimates based on proxies because they are irrelevant to the issue, as the authors of the paper you reference say:

This effort to reconstruct our planet’s climate history has become linked to the topic of Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW). On the one hand, this is peculiar since paleoclimatological reconstructions can provide evidence only for the detection of global warming and even then they constitute only one such source of evidence. The principal sources of evidence for the detection of global warming and in particular the attribution of it to anthropogenic factors come from basic science as well as General Circulation Models (GCMs) that have been fit to data accumulated during the instrumental period (IPCC, 2007). These models show that carbon dioxide, when released into the atmosphere in sufficient concentration, can force temperature increases.
What the authors of the paper are saying may be along the lines of something I have noticed. Some time ago I analyzed a large number of Russian temperature records to look at trends. I used simple unweighted averaging, which allows for simple statistical treatment. It was easy to find significant trends because the magnitude of temperature change in the 20th century is large. The precision of my trends did not decline as I increased the sample size in the way one would expect, that is inversely proportional to the square of the sample size. In particular, my trends were not as tight as those seen in the climate literature (which are for the entire world, not just Russia). Nevertheless the conclusions drawn from my trends are the same as the story told by the official trends.







Post#1912 at 09-10-2010 04:02 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mikebert View Post
I have looked into climate change in some detail. I did not concern myself with historical temperature estimates based on proxies because they are irrelevant to the issue, as the authors of the paper you reference say:
Then why was the hockey stick such an important and oft-repeated exhibit in Inconvenient Truth? Visually it knocked your socks off.

If I understand you correctly, the hockey stick is irrelevant. You rely on the models and recent data ("instrumental period") and ignore historical information prior to the 20th century. That was not the approach of Al Gore in the movie.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1913 at 09-10-2010 04:49 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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Quote Originally Posted by TnT View Post
I'm a bit skeptical about this sort of "survivalist" stuff. If the S&*T really hit the fan, there would be WAY too many folks looking for food to make hunting/gathering a viable option except for those who could somehow defend enough real estate in a remote area.

Shooting, fishing and gutting are not exactly rocket science. By the time I was eight, growing up in WY, I had those skills.

Subsistence hunting/gathering is, however, a much larger topic than shooting, fishing and gutting.
Fiction reading suggestion very much to the point: S.M. Stirling: Dies the Fire.







Post#1914 at 09-10-2010 05:17 PM by Poodle [at Doghouse joined May 2010 #posts 1,269]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
Gee -- I thought dogs were the ultimate scavengers! They can find dead meat faster than we can and when it is less rotten. They are also more adept predators than we are. We humans are more strictly predatory because we are less fit to eating decaying flesh. We need meat (in the absence of alternatives) more recently-killed or somehow preserved.
We *are* better than the humans.

And I love the .22LR.







Post#1915 at 09-11-2010 01:54 PM by Mikebert [at Kalamazoo MI joined Jul 2001 #posts 4,502]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Then why was the hockey stick such an important and oft-repeated exhibit in Inconvenient Truth?
Inconvenient Truth is a movie, that is an art form. As you guessed, the reason why it was used is that it knocked your socks off.

If I understand you correctly, the hockey stick is irrelevant. You rely on the models and recent data ("instrumental period") and ignore historical information prior to the 20th century.
Yes, I was trying to understand climate change today, not that of the past.

That was not the approach of Al Gore in the movie.
Mr. Gore was not trying to teach climate science.
Last edited by Mikebert; 09-11-2010 at 01:58 PM.







Post#1916 at 09-12-2010 09:36 PM by TnT [at joined Feb 2005 #posts 2,005]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
Fiction reading suggestion very much to the point: S.M. Stirling: Dies the Fire.
THANK YOU! I just picked it up today at Border's. I'm partway through it and really, really like it. But then I'm drawn to post-apocalyptic stuff.

Do you like Cormac McCarthy? The Road, especially?
" ... a man of notoriously vicious and intemperate disposition."







Post#1917 at 09-15-2010 12:59 PM by Xer H [at Chicago and Indiana joined Dec 2009 #posts 1,212]
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Massive Fish Kill Reported in Louisiana

What you see above isn't a rural gravel road. It's a Louisiana waterway, its surface completely covered with dead sea life -- a mishmash of species of fish, crabs, stingray and eel. New Orleans CBS affiliate WWL-TV reports that even a whale was found dead in the area, a stretch of coastal Louisiana hit hard this summer by oil from BP's busted Gulf well.
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them." —Albert Einstein

"The road to perdition has ever been accompanied by lip service to an ideal." —Albert Einstein

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction.” —Albert Einstein







Post#1918 at 09-16-2010 09:48 PM by Publius [at joined Sep 2009 #posts 611]
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Thumbs down Irrelevant Global Warming Thread?

Here's the latest headline:
White House: Global Warming Out, 'Global Climate Disruption' In
Global Warming? It's kinda like "that dog don't hunt anymore," in the words former President Clinton.Yeah, kinda like, 'I'm not a liberal, I'm a progressive.'

When ya find yer losin' the argument, just follow Brian Rush's golden rule: Move the goalposts and change the terms, folks.







Post#1919 at 09-22-2010 10:24 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Climate change enlightenment was fun while it lasted.

From George Monbiot. Sort of an official throwing in of the towel:

Climate change enlightenment was fun while it lasted. But now it's dead

The closer it comes, the worse it looks. The best outcome anyone now expects from December's climate summit in Mexico is that some delegates might stay awake during the meetings. When talks fail once, as they did in Copenhagen, governments lose interest. They don't want to be associated with failure, they don't want to pour time and energy into a broken process. Nine years after the world trade negotiations moved to Mexico after failing in Qatar, they remain in diplomatic limbo. Nothing in the preparations for the climate talks suggests any other outcome.

A meeting in China at the beginning of October is supposed to clear the way for Cancún. The hosts have already made it clear that it's going nowhere: there are, a top Chinese climate change official explains, still "huge differences between developed and developing countries". Everyone blames everyone else for the failure at Copenhagen. Everyone insists that everyone else should move.

But nobody cares enough to make a fight of it. The disagreements are simultaneously entrenched and muted. The doctor's certificate has not been issued; perhaps, to save face, it never will be. But the harsh reality we have to grasp is that the process is dead.......

Where does this leave us? How should we respond to the reality we have tried not to see: that in 18 years of promise and bluster nothing has happened? Environmentalists tend to blame themselves for these failures. Perhaps we should have made people feel better about their lives. Or worse. Perhaps we should have done more to foster hope. Or despair. Perhaps we were too fixated on grand visions. Or techno-fixes. Perhaps we got too close to business. Or not close enough. The truth is that there is not and never was a strategy certain of success, as the powers ranged against us have always been stronger than we are.

Greens are a puny force by comparison to industrial lobby groups, the cowardice of governments and the natural human tendency to deny what we don't want to see. To compensate for our weakness, we indulged a fantasy of benign paternalistic power – acting, though the political mechanisms were inscrutable, in the wider interests of humankind. We allowed ourselves to believe that, with a little prompting and protest, somewhere, in a distant institutional sphere, compromised but decent people would take care of us. They won't. They weren't ever going to do so. So what do we do now?

I don't know. These failures have exposed not only familiar political problems, but deep-rooted human weakness. All I know is that we must stop dreaming about an institutional response that will never materialize and start facing a political reality we've sought to avoid. The conversation starts here.
more here: http://bit.ly/cKnvMj


James50
Last edited by James50; 09-22-2010 at 10:27 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1920 at 10-06-2010 07:58 PM by jpatrick [at Venice Beach CA joined Dec 2009 #posts 228]
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Solar surprise for Climate Issue - some new satellite data on the UV radiation from the sun
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11480916







Post#1921 at 10-09-2010 08:03 PM by Zobot81 [at Massachusetts joined Sep 2010 #posts 251]
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Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
I was only pointing out that you were using an argument often used by the "pro-life" position. The logic is faulty in either case. I was recommending that you use another source of support.

Obviously there is no connection between abortion and global warming, except perhaps in HC's pathetic little world where the "liberal mainstream media" is behind it all.
Actually, I happen to see a very big connection between abortion, and global warming (i.e. if more people had an abortion, the less global warming there would be).

I'm sorry, but it's true.

No, abortion is NOT my recommended solution for GW... I'm just pointing out that there is, indeed, a connection, since overpopulation is at the base of our present, environmental degradation.

Just is. No two ways about it.

But how do we realistically deal with overpopulation, people? Even now, the topic remains so taboo that I have a hard time getting others to engage in a debate with me.
Ted: Dude!
Bill: What?
Ted: Hell sucks!
Bill: Definitely!







Post#1922 at 10-10-2010 08:29 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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We already ARE dealing realistically with overpopulation, or why all the crying about the "demographic crisis" in the developed countries and "the graying of Japan" etc. Urbanization, Westernization, free access to contraceptives, and freedom, education and jobs for women, are doing such a good jobs the pundits are crying bloody murder over it, as if the "graying of" would be permanent and not just a hard transition to a lower level.

As for the developing nations - they're getting there. Slowly, but they're getting there.







Post#1923 at 10-11-2010 03:10 AM by Copperfield [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 2,244]
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Harold Lewis, Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, has resigned from the American Physical Society over what he saw as the tainting of science by money.

http://thegwpf.org/ipcc-news/1670-ha...l-society.html







Post#1924 at 10-11-2010 02:10 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by jpatrick View Post
Solar surprise for Climate Issue - some new satellite data on the UV radiation from the sun
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11480916
Invalid interpretation on your part. Solar activity has had a recessive influence upon global warming in contrast to carbon dioxide emissions.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1925 at 10-11-2010 04:08 PM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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All the tea-party wackos and other Republicans are crying about how cap and trade will raise their taxes, etc. I wonder how much they will cry when the bill comes due for more and more weather disasters like the one in Pakistan. Who is going to pay for all the floods, famines, fires, hurricanes, oil spills, etc.? Probably the US taxpayer will be asked to fork over more and more. What will JPT and his friends do about that? Global warming will come out of YOUR pocket too, Republicans. Meanwhile, we more generous-minded folks have to fork over more and more in contributions to relief agencies....
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece
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