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Thread: Global Warming - Page 79







Post#1951 at 02-03-2011 03:32 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Most of northern hemisphere covered in snow. Neat picture.

Here.

James50
The snow line isn't so amazing; it seems to correspond to the usual divide between "C" and "D" climates. "C" climates usually have winters cool enough for frost but warm enough to not ordinarily cold enough to allow the accumulation of snow. January in Chicago (clearly "D") is normally cold enough for some accumulations of snow; it's on the borderline for accumulation of January snow in St. Louis (controversy in climatological communities), and usually too warm for snow accumulation in Memphis. (clearly C). In Europe the snow line lies in Poland (coincidence, and the Hungarian Plain (borderline C-D area) is snow-free. Lower elevations in Germany and France are snow-free. The line is decidedly to the south in Asia, reaching almost the whole of the Korean Peninsula.

Such is still weather, and not climate. Don't be surprised if the Super Bowl has good weather in Dallas, which recently got hit hard. Snow is possible in Dallas in the winter, but it doesn't stick.

Oh -- the Southern Hemisphere is having one of the usual portents of global warming -- very strong tropical storms. Northeastern Australia (Queensland) have been getting some devastating floods.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."


― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters







Post#1952 at 02-03-2011 03:37 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by pbrower2a View Post
The snow line isn't so amazing; it seems to correspond to the usual divide between "C" and "D" climates. "C" climates usually have winters cool enough for frost but warm enough to not ordinarily cold enough to allow the accumulation of snow. January in Chicago (clearly "D") is normally cold enough for some accumulations of snow; it's on the borderline for accumulation of January snow in St. Louis (controversy in climatological communities), and usually too warm for snow accumulation in Memphis. (clearly C). In Europe the snow line lies in Poland (coincidence, and the Hungarian Plain (borderline C-D area) is snow-free. Lower elevations in Germany and France are snow-free. The line is decidedly to the south in Asia, reaching almost the whole of the Korean Peninsula.

Such is still weather, and not climate. Don't be surprised if the Super Bowl has good weather in Dallas, which recently got hit hard. Snow is possible in Dallas in the winter, but it doesn't stick.

Oh -- the Southern Hemisphere is having one of the usual portents of global warming -- very strong tropical storms. Northeastern Australia (Queensland) have been getting some devastating floods.
I think future scientists will look back on the phrase "global warming" as a huge PR mistake. It should have been called "climate change". Also saying "its only weather" loses logical traction over time. Weather is what can make life miserable, not climate. Telling people to ignore what is happening in front of their own eyes gets old after a while.

If the models are right, and considering how much of a switch away from coal would be needed in a short time, we are probably best served by thinking about mitigation of the problem rather than prevention at this point.

Who is going to pay for the sea walls in Bangladesh?

James50
Last edited by James50; 02-03-2011 at 03:39 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1953 at 02-03-2011 04:54 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Most of northern hemisphere covered in snow. Neat picture.

Here.

James50
Very cool pic, thanks James!
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#1954 at 02-03-2011 05:02 PM by RyanJH [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 291]
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Arctic Ice Melt

From the NSIDC website.

"Arctic sea ice extent averaged over January 2011 was 13.55 million square kilometers (5.23 million square miles). This was the lowest January ice extent recorded since satellite records began in 1979. It was 50,000 square kilometers (19,300 square miles) below the record low of 13.60 million square kilometers (5.25 million square miles), set in 2006, and 1.27 million square kilometers (490,000 square miles) below the 1979 to 2000 average."
Ryan Heilman '68
-Math is the beginning of wisdom.







Post#1955 at 02-03-2011 05:29 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
From the NSIDC website.

"Arctic sea ice extent averaged over January 2011 was 13.55 million square kilometers (5.23 million square miles). This was the lowest January ice extent recorded since satellite records began in 1979. It was 50,000 square kilometers (19,300 square miles) below the record low of 13.60 million square kilometers (5.25 million square miles), set in 2006, and 1.27 million square kilometers (490,000 square miles) below the 1979 to 2000 average."
Sorry to be snarky, but do you think someone in Texas suffering rolling blackouts with 10 degrees outside because 10% of the power plants in Texas went off line due to severe cold weather or those folks stuck in a car on Lakeshore Drive who had to be saved with snowmobiles gives a hoot about the sea ice in the Arctic?

James50
Last edited by James50; 02-03-2011 at 05:41 PM.
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1956 at 02-03-2011 05:34 PM by RyanJH [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 291]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Sorry to be snarky, but do you think someone in Texas suffering rolling blackouts with 10 degrees outside because 10% of the power plants in Texas went off line due to severe cold weather or those folks stuck in a car on Riverside Drive who had to be saved with snowmobiles gives a hoot about the sea ice in the Arctic?

James5-
Sorry. I meant to post this in the Global Warming forum.
Ryan Heilman '68
-Math is the beginning of wisdom.







Post#1957 at 02-03-2011 05:51 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
Sorry. I meant to post this in the Global Warming forum.
Sometimes I think I am drowning in snark from various places. It has become the default mode of comment by political commentators. I need to learn more self control.

But being serious for a moment, the article speaks about the relationship between mid-latitude weather and the arctic oscillation. I don't know how that paragraph strikes you, but it seems very speculative even counter-intuitive - the less sea ice extent in the Arctic, the colder it gets in the mid-latitudes?

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1958 at 02-03-2011 06:02 PM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Sorry to be snarky, but do you think someone in Texas suffering rolling blackouts with 10 degrees outside because 10% of the power plants in Texas went off line due to severe cold weather or those folks stuck in a car on Lakeshore Drive who had to be saved with snowmobiles gives a hoot about the sea ice in the Arctic?

James50
Thankfully the rolling blackouts have stopped for us for now. Apparently we are purchasing electricity from Mexico now...I don't know if it's just me, but somehow I find that assuming for whatever reason. Whose the 3rd world country today?

The black outs in my town seemed to vary from house to house. I had 4 lasting approximately 20 to 30 minutes each time. A friend who lives a mile away only had 1 yesterday that last all of about 5 or 10 minutes. And then there was another couple in my same town who lost power at 7 am. It came back on around noon for a an hour or so, then went back down for at least another 3 hours. They left their house and went to hotel before the electricity came back on because it was too old in their house.







Post#1959 at 02-03-2011 06:53 PM by RyanJH [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 291]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Sometimes I think I am drowning in snark from various places. It has become the default mode of comment by political commentators. I need to learn more self control.

But being serious for a moment, the article speaks about the relationship between mid-latitude weather and the arctic oscillation. I don't know how that paragraph strikes you, but it seems very speculative even counter-intuitive - the less sea ice extent in the Arctic, the colder it gets in the mid-latitudes?

James50
I generally find that systems with multiple variable inputs often exhibit counter-intuitive behavior - the whole butterfly flapping its wings thing.

The article explains the phenomena like so:

"Warm conditions in the Arctic and cold conditions in northern Europe and the U.S. are linked to the strong negative mode of the Arctic oscillation. Cold air is denser than warmer air, so it sits closer to the surface. Around the North Pole, this dense cold air causes a circular wind pattern called the polar vortex , which helps keep cold air trapped near the poles. When sea ice has not formed during autumn and winter, heat from the ocean escapes and warms the atmosphere. This may weaken the polar vortex and allow air to spill out of the Arctic and into mid-latitude regions in some years, bringing potentially cold winter weather to lower latitudes."

I find this plausible but wonder which butterflies could change it.
Ryan Heilman '68
-Math is the beginning of wisdom.







Post#1960 at 02-03-2011 08:22 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Cycles

Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
Sometimes I think I am drowning in snark from various places. It has become the default mode of comment by political commentators. I need to learn more self control.

But being serious for a moment, the article speaks about the relationship between mid-latitude weather and the arctic oscillation. I don't know how that paragraph strikes you, but it seems very speculative even counter-intuitive - the less sea ice extent in the Arctic, the colder it gets in the mid-latitudes?
It is definitely messy. There is usually a pattern of circular winds that goes around the Arctic. When that pattern is firmly there, the very cold air stays way up north. The last few years that pattern hasn't been there. The result is a lot of mixing. Very cold air comes south. More warm air gets north. The warm air going north results in less floating ice.

This year we're also have La Nina along with an associated "Pineapple Express." The Pineapple Express is a pattern where Pacific moisture flows into North America, resulting in storm after storm after storm.

The North Atlantic Oscillation is also stuck in cold mode. I believe the NAO is related to or an aspect of that wall keeping cold air up north. When the NAO is in cold mode, Northeastern America, Europe and Canada gets cold and stormy while more warm air gets up into the Arctic. Same as the circular wall, but this is an older phenomena that has been watched for quite some time.

Then there is global warming. While there have been worries that warming might cause one of the above cycles to get stuck in one mode or another, these days you are more apt to hear that the oscillations will be exaggerated. For example, El Nino tends to bring drought to Australia, while La Nina brings storms. Some suggest that as the net energy in the atmosphere is increased, both extremes could get amplified. Thus, Queensland Australia is just recovering from an extreme drought, but the drought ends with extreme floods and a Category 5 typhoon. Will this settle out to a period of productive moderate weather, or will they have to learn to deal with constant extremes?

If you are looking for nice simple certain answers, you aren't going to get them. Few really have the time to seriously study climate. Alas, what people are apt to do is listen to whatever they want to hear.







Post#1961 at 02-06-2011 01:19 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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It is colder in Texas than in Alaska, because the jet stream has moved south due to the melting of the ice caps. The worst hurricane in living memory devastated north-eastern Austrailia, already suffering from their worst floods. The glaciers are melting in Peru and all over the planet. Meanwhile the Republicans live in denial and block all efforts to deal with climate change, except maybe here in CA. And the voters keep putting these creeps back in office. Well, we get what we vote for!
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1962 at 02-06-2011 09:30 AM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Green View Post
It is colder in Texas than in Alaska, because the jet stream has moved south due to the melting of the ice caps. The worst hurricane in living memory devastated north-eastern Austrailia, already suffering from their worst floods. The glaciers are melting in Peru and all over the planet. Meanwhile the Republicans live in denial and block all efforts to deal with climate change, except maybe here in CA. And the voters keep putting these creeps back in office. Well, we get what we vote for!
What if it turns out that the superstorms are caused by a shifting magnetic pole due to the sun's magnetosphere? What are the Republicans supposed to do about that? Remember those glaciers in the Himalayas? Turns out they are growing not shrinking and certainly not about to disappear.

Eric, when you make a factual statement, every once and a while, I wish you would link to a source. I don't say this so much to be snarky (well, sometimes it is irresistible), but because I want to read some of what you are reading. From what I read, the global warming movement is near a state of collapse as almost none of its predictions are coming true. Al Gore no longer will appear in public. Dr. Pachauri of the IPCC has been shown to be corrupt. If you still think that we have the models right, I would like to see it. The left has embraced global warming as it serves their political ends. The academic community has embraced it because it serves their financial ends.

For people in my life, global warming has become something to make fun of, like a child's bogey man. If something bad happens, people jokingly say "must be global warming". Global warming has become the perfect theory as there are no facts which can refute it. If it is cold, it's because of global warming. If it is hot, it's because of global warming. It it is wet, it's because of global warming. It it is dry, it's because of global warming. It is immune to facts. It just sounds silly.

A few hyperlinks here and there would make your posts much more interesting to me.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1963 at 02-06-2011 11:00 AM by ASB65 [at Texas joined Mar 2010 #posts 5,892]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
What if it turns out that the superstorms are caused by a shifting magnetic pole due to the sun's magnetosphere? What are the Republicans supposed to do about that? Remember those glaciers in the Himalayas? Turns out they are growing not shrinking and certainly not about to disappear.

Eric, when you make a factual statement, every once and a while, I wish you would link to a source. I don't say this so much to be snarky (well, sometimes it is irresistible), but because I want to read some of what you are reading. From what I read, the global warming movement is near a state of collapse as almost none of its predictions are coming true. Al Gore no longer will appear in public. Dr. Pachauri of the IPCC has been shown to be corrupt. If you still think that we have the models right, I would like to see it. The left has embraced global warming as it serves their political ends. The academic community has embraced it because it serves their financial ends.

For people in my life, global warming has become something to make fun of, like a child's bogey man. If something bad happens, people jokingly say "must be global warming". Global warming has become the perfect theory as there are no facts which can refute it. If it is cold, it's because of global warming. If it is hot, it's because of global warming. It it is wet, it's because of global warming. It it is dry, it's because of global warming. It is immune to facts. It just sounds silly.

A few hyperlinks here and there would make your posts much more interesting to me.

James50
It is a fact that the magnetic poles are shifting. This has been documented by scientists and NASA. There have been many reports and articles about this over the past several years. Just goggle it. There is plenty of information regarding this topic. I have read several articles similar to the one you sited. If I remember correctly, the magnetic pole began moving a little over a hundred years ago. It has picked up speed in the past several years. This could be what is causing the unusual weather and storms. In addition to the magnetic pole movement, NASA has also released several warnings about solar sunspots and solar storms. Solar storms and sun spots go in cycles. Just like the seasons on our planet. We have had relatively low solar storms and sun spot activity in recent years but these solar storms are beginning to become active again. They are suppose to be at a high peak around May of 2013. These solar storms will also cause disturbance to our atmosphere. There is also the possibility that they may cause damage to our satellites up in space. NASA and scientists are working on ways to try and prevent that from happening because they know it's coming. Back in the 1800's there was unusually high solar storms similar to what we are getting ready to experience. It knocked out radio and telegraph transmissions and the northern lights could be seen in places way south of what they are normally seen. So we really do have the perfect storm going on right now.

This is not to say that human activity hasn't also contributed to global warming but I don't think it's the only cause. We have polluted our skies and waters. That is also a fact and no one can deny that. The pollution in our cities has released greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

If the magnetic field wasn't moving, or if we weren't due for high solar activity, just the greenhouse gases alone may not have been enough to impact global change. Or if we humans were still living in an unindustrialized period at this moment in time, perhaps the storms wouldn't be quite as severe. I really think it's the combination of everything. And not just one thing.

So in fact, both James and Eric are both right. We are making an already bad situation worse.
Last edited by ASB65; 02-06-2011 at 11:52 AM.







Post#1964 at 02-06-2011 03:07 PM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
For people in my life, global warming has become something to make fun of, like a child's bogey man. If something bad happens, people jokingly say "must be global warming". Global warming has become the perfect theory as there are no facts which can refute it. If it is cold, it's because of global warming. If it is hot, it's because of global warming. It it is wet, it's because of global warming. It it is dry, it's because of global warming. It is immune to facts. It just sounds silly.
Perhaps the tiniest bit along those lines:

We continue to try to follow (via pirated download, natch) the boys' favorite cartoon from Petersburg, "Smeshariki". I just finished watching the last of the most recent season with them. Two episodes caught my eye in particular.
One was about nanotechnology -- two of the characters were trapped in orbit with low oxygen in a spaceship they had gone joyriding in; the guys on the ground had to invent a means of getting them down -- ended up coming up with a rope made of carbon nanotubules, textured on the outside 'like the surface of a cabbage leaf seen under a microscope' to shed water and so avoid getting weighed-down by wetting on the way up to the orbiting ship.
The second was about climate/weather. The summer is warmer than usual, everyone freaks out about the end of winters, global warming, etc, etc. Then winter comes early and everyone turns on a dime and starts talking about sunspot numbers, the return of the ice ages and so on; then they get a warm snap, ice starts melting, and they're back to global warming; then again with the cooling and ice ages. It ends with the scientist-moose getting them all singing a song about how 'things go around and around; there are cycles upon cycles upon cycles in the universe, some of them big, and some of them small, and some of them really really really slow'.

Hmm... It seems much less on-topic or relevant now than it did when I started writing...
Anyway, it's a kids' cartoon. There was also an episode where the moose gets some friends to help him with his diet, then from hunger starts to hallucinate a talking sandwich that gets him to attack his friends, in a spoof of The Shining (Garret thinks the line, "the sandwich told me everything..." is just super-hilarious). So take that as you will...
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

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is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#1965 at 02-06-2011 05:25 PM by RyanJH [at joined Jan 2011 #posts 291]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
From what I read, the global warming movement is near a state of collapse as almost none of its predictions are coming true. Al Gore no longer will appear in public. Dr. Pachauri of the IPCC has been shown to be corrupt. If you still think that we have the models right, I would like to see it. The left has embraced global warming as it serves their political ends. The academic community has embraced it because it serves their financial ends.

For people in my life, global warming has become something to make fun of, like a child's bogey man. If something bad happens, people jokingly say "must be global warming". Global warming has become the perfect theory as there are no facts which can refute it. If it is cold, it's because of global warming. If it is hot, it's because of global warming. It it is wet, it's because of global warming. It it is dry, it's because of global warming. It is immune to facts. It just sounds silly.

A few hyperlinks here and there would make your posts much more interesting to me.

James50
James,

In 2007, I used the U.S. Army's Command and General Staff College library at Fort Leavenworth, KS to conduct my own literature survey on "Global Warming" since I had lost trust in the media or the politicians to speak to the facts. My analysis is consistent with these entries from Wikipedia, at least for the stuff dated 2007 and earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scienti...climate_change

Bottom line: The preponderance of the available evidence overwhelmingly supports a global warming hypothesis. It also, with a probability of somewhere in the 90 - 99% range, supports human causes as the primary driving function in the recent global warming.

I think we may have mis-named phenomena and perhaps should have called it "Global Weirding." I have formal education in physics / engineering physics / nuclear engineering / information systems / national security studies. From this, I have encountered a number of examples of complex systems (like the global climate) and my hypothesis for the counter intuitive results we have seen in some areas of the globe is:

Add energy (as indicated / predicted an by average global temperature increase) to a complex, closely coupled system (changes in one part of the system cascade throughout the system) and you often get erratic behavior, parts of the system lose way more energy than they had previously, parts of the system experience dramatic oscillations in energy levels and parts of the system receive more energy that they had previously.

I understand many dispute the data on both sides of the debate. As I told Marx & Lennon regarding gun control in the "Spiral of Violence" forum:

Quote Originally Posted by Marx & Lennon View Post
My problem with gun-related data of any kind is the seemingly infinite ability of the NRA to suppress the keeping of data and the suppression of any analysis of what exists that may be contrary to their POV. Their power is breathtaking. So anything produced by an ally, to say nothing of someone who has actually been paid by them, is suspicious by definition.
Quote Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
I understand suspicion of data from suspicious sources. I humbly suggest that a better approach to data from suspicious sources is rigorous personal analysis using a standard research methodology vice discarding the data.

If we predominately make decisions by considering data that does not support our current position suspicious and then discarding the data because it is suspicious, then...well, we end up with a lot of people yelling at each other about whose imaginary friend is better.
Last edited by RyanJH; 02-06-2011 at 05:38 PM.
Ryan Heilman '68
-Math is the beginning of wisdom.







Post#1966 at 02-06-2011 07:09 PM by James50 [at Atlanta, GA US joined Feb 2010 #posts 3,605]
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Quote Originally Posted by RyanJH View Post
I think we may have mis-named phenomena and perhaps should have called it "Global Weirding."
There are numerous ancillary issues about global climate change that have created problems.

1. The name should never have been global warming. Global climate change would have been better.
2. The left saw advantage in over-selling the models. It has become perceived as part of an over-the-top self-flagellation environmental movement. This makes the environmental lobby feel good, but puts off real change.
3. The prime spokespeople have done little or nothing to change their own lifestyles. In fact, they have been exposed as near complete hypocrites who have taken the fame and money that global warming brought them, and proceeded to become one person massive carbon footprints. Perhaps you have had the same experience with me of hearing knowledgeable people scare the bejesus out of you with their predictions of doom. Then you query about their own lives and realize they are doing nothing to mitigate their own carbon footprint. CO2 reduction is for the little people.

None of these things have anything to do with the science.

I am coming to believe that given our inability in a world of scarcity to truly do anything that would make a significant difference, we had best be thinking about mitigation and not prevention. The nice thing about mitigation is that we can wait to see what happens.

BTW -if I was dictator for a day, I would ban the building of any new coal plants in the US. We cannot afford to tear down what already exists, but we can stop building anything new. We should look to conservation, renewables, and nuclear for our electricity. This can be justified on the basis of pollutants (SOX, NOX, mercury) and not on the basis of CO2.

James50
The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected. - G.K. Chesterton







Post#1967 at 02-06-2011 07:24 PM by '58 Flat [at Hardhat From Central Jersey joined Jul 2001 #posts 3,300]
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Well, Punxsutawney Phil didn't see his shadow on Wednesday.

Did Al Gore see his?

Then again, if Gore has one shred of conscience, he's sporting a longer beard than Brett Keisel these days because he can't bear to look into a mirror to shave!
But maybe if the putative Robin Hoods stopped trying to take from law-abiding citizens and give to criminals, take from men and give to women, take from believers and give to anti-believers, take from citizens and give to "undocumented" immigrants, and take from heterosexuals and give to homosexuals, they might have a lot more success in taking from the rich and giving to everyone else.

Don't blame me - I'm a Baby Buster!







Post#1968 at 02-06-2011 07:28 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Messy

Quote Originally Posted by ASB65 View Post
It is a fact that the magnetic poles are shifting. This has been documented by scientists and NASA. There have been many reports and articles about this over the past several years. Just goggle it. There is plenty of information regarding this topic. I have read several articles similar to the one you sited. If I remember correctly, the magnetic pole began moving a little over a hundred years ago. It has picked up speed in the past several years. This could be what is causing the unusual weather and storms. In addition to the magnetic pole movement, NASA has also released several warnings about solar sunspots and solar storms. Solar storms and sun spots go in cycles. Just like the seasons on our planet. We have had relatively low solar storms and sun spot activity in recent years but these solar storms are beginning to become active again. They are suppose to be at a high peak around May of 2013. These solar storms will also cause disturbance to our atmosphere. There is also the possibility that they may cause damage to our satellites up in space. NASA and scientists are working on ways to try and prevent that from happening because they know it's coming. Back in the 1800's there was unusually high solar storms similar to what we are getting ready to experience. It knocked out radio and telegraph transmissions and the northern lights could be seen in places way south of what they are normally seen. So we really do have the perfect storm going on right now.

This is not to say that human activity hasn't also contributed to global warming but I don't think it's the only cause. We have polluted our skies and waters. That is also a fact and no one can deny that. The pollution in our cities has released greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.

If the magnetic field wasn't moving, or if we weren't due for high solar activity, just the greenhouse gases alone may not have been enough to impact global change. Or if we humans were still living in an unindustrialized period at this moment in time, perhaps the storms wouldn't be quite as severe. I really think it's the combination of everything. And not just one thing.

So in fact, both James and Eric are both right. We are making an already bad situation worse.
There are a lot of things happening with respect to climate. The largest short term solar cycle runs 11 years. It's reasonably predictable, with lots of sunspots indicating a hotter than usual sun and warmer than usual climate. If you look at the global temperature charts it isn't difficult to see the 11 year cycle.

El Nino / La Nina is another factor that can be seen in the global temperature charts.

Major dusty volcanic eruptions are a third factor that is clearly visible to the naked eye. They cause a cold bump for a year or four, depending on the size of the eruption.

Soot producing smoke stacks can be the equivalent of dusty volcaninc eruptions. Both put soot and dust in the air, which increases cloud cover, which reflects more energy back into space. Early industrial factories produce a lot of soot. As soot causes health problems, governments eventually regulate soot. Developed countries have fairly clean factories soot wise, while the developing countries are just beginning to go into their clean smokestack phase. Should they pass anti-soot laws as they are expected to, global dimming will no longer be canceling much of global warming. There might well be a large jump in the warming.

Then there are feedback effects. The more ice there is, the more light is reflected back to space, the cooler it is, the more ice there is. Thus, if any factor moves the global temperature in any direction, the effect gets amplified. Several times in reconstructed history, the Antarctic has melted. The result is a four degree warming bounce. The goal of many of the global warming people has been to prevent the temperature rise from getting larger than 2 degrees centegrade. If we do that, we might keep the antarctic ice cap. If we don't, 2 degrees gets one four more degrees free.

Then there is are the Milankovitch Cycles. As the Earth spins it wobbles like a top in fairly predictable ways. These changes in the Earth's orbit spin also effect over all temperature. The Milankovitch Cycles are widely held to be responsible for the ice ages coming and going. One can see this in the temperature records too. If one looks at the hockey stick temperature charts, before lots of fossil fuels were burned, temperature was slowly going down. The shaft of the hockey stick has a distinct down slope. The current interglacial is about due to end. The Earth's orbit is shifting into a cooler mode. If there weren't other factors making things warmer, we'd likely be getting cooler.

Then there are the greenhouse gasses.

Any of the above you can understand in theory and see visibly in the temperature record.

I haven't heard of any correlation between temperature change and the magnetic pole switch. I do know there is clear record of magnetic fields on the ocean bottom. There is also clear record of temperature. Never heard that they correlate, that there is a temperature glitch near the pole shift. Possible, but it ought to be an easy thing to test.







Post#1969 at 02-07-2011 01:13 AM by Eric the Green [at San Jose CA joined Jul 2001 #posts 22,504]
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Quote Originally Posted by James50 View Post
What if it turns out that the superstorms are caused by a shifting magnetic pole due to the sun's magnetosphere? What are the Republicans supposed to do about that? Remember those glaciers in the Himalayas? Turns out they are growing not shrinking and certainly not about to disappear.
What planet are you living on? Magnetic changes do not change the weather. The Himalayan glaciers have been shrinking over a period of decades. The last I heard about them in graphic detail was late 2008. A counter trend since then means little by comparison, if it even exists.
Eric, when you make a factual statement, every once and a while, I wish you would link to a source. I don't say this so much to be snarky (well, sometimes it is irresistible), but because I want to read some of what you are reading. From what I read, the global warming movement is near a state of collapse as almost none of its predictions are coming true. Al Gore no longer will appear in public. Dr. Pachauri of the IPCC has been shown to be corrupt. If you still think that we have the models right, I would like to see it. The left has embraced global warming as it serves their political ends. The academic community has embraced it because it serves their financial ends.
Again I don't know what planet you are living on. Must be the region you live in again, which is come to think of it quite a bit like a different planet

Al Gore hasn't gone anywhere. Noone can be a media darling forever; fashions change. Other experts are out there anyway.

I don't know why it would be necessary to keep posting the same things over and over, when you don't read the data. When I get to it, maybe I'll find some current data for you and other ostriches. You can also see it on my website, which you can find through a few clicks from my profile or at http://www.sfo.com/~eameece (url due to change soon, but meanwhile you can see my activist page there, or google my real name). But really, before you post things like this you should do your own research, using peer-reviewed scientists studying climate change, not scientists from other fields and cranks paid by energy companies.

There was a silly propaganda campaign about "climategate" involving supposed emails passed by scientists at Copenhagen. It did a lot of damage, but had no truth. There has been no change in the data (unless it is that things are even worse).
For people in my life, global warming has become something to make fun of, like a child's bogey man. If something bad happens, people jokingly say "must be global warming". Global warming has become the perfect theory as there are no facts which can refute it. If it is cold, it's because of global warming. If it is hot, it's because of global warming. It it is wet, it's because of global warming. It it is dry, it's because of global warming. It is immune to facts. It just sounds silly.
If you find it funny, then you are laughing while the planet burns. You won't be laughing when you have no more food and water, or when you have to pay thousands of dollars to help people around the world or in your own community due to floods, fires, hurricanes, blizzards, and other disasters in unprecedented degree.

We need to change the way we produce energy in this country. We can't wait for the free market to decide this. Although it looks like we will, except here in CA-- but that only means other countries will surpass us economically. Call that a leftist agenda if you want, but really the left is just composed of those people who want to face up to problems, rather than protect those who profit from the status quo. Sorry you are still in the latter camp.

The prime spokespeople have done little or nothing to change their own lifestyles. In fact, they have been exposed as near complete hypocrites who have taken the fame and money that global warming brought them, and proceeded to become one person massive carbon footprints. Perhaps you have had the same experience with me of hearing knowledgeable people scare the bejesus out of you with their predictions of doom. Then you query about their own lives and realize they are doing nothing to mitigate their own carbon footprint. CO2 reduction is for the little people.
I've heard this rhetoric from a friend of mine and others. What bunk! What difference does it make if a spokesperson has a big carbon footprint? How does that change the data and what needs to be done? If you have nothing else, make ad hominem attacks. Al Gore for one reduced his footprint. Meanwhile you have given me no other examples. Does Dr. Hansen have a big carbon footprint? In any case, those who are in the media need to travel quite a bit. Maybe they think that by spending some CO2 now they can save more. Global warming scientists are not the "big people." Those are the energy company CEOs and other corporate bigwigs who impose this system on us and refuse to change it. The little people are being hurt most of all by having to pay high gas prices because gasoline has no effective competition on the market, thanks to these stubborn, greedy, deceptive big wigs with big political pockets.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 02-07-2011 at 01:24 AM.
"I close my eyes, and I can see a better day" -- Justin Bieber

Keep the spirit alive,

Eric A. Meece







Post#1970 at 02-08-2011 11:22 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Krugman and Global Warming

The NY Times and Krugman are reporting on Droughts, Floods and Food He makes the case that the unrest in the Middle East relates to a strong upsurge in food prices. The price increases, in turn, have to do with recent extreme weather events. For discussion purposes...

To some extent we’re seeing the results of a natural phenomenon, La Niña — a periodic event in which water in the equatorial Pacific becomes cooler than normal. And La Niña events have historically been associated with global food crises, including the crisis of 2007-8.

But that’s not the whole story. Don’t let the snow fool you: globally, 2010 was tied with 2005 for warmest year on record, even though we were at a solar minimum and La Niña was a cooling factor in the second half of the year. Temperature records were set not just in Russia but in no fewer than 19 countries, covering a fifth of the world’s land area. And both droughts and floods are natural consequences of a warming world: droughts because it’s hotter, floods because warm oceans release more water vapor.

As always, you can’t attribute any one weather event to greenhouse gases. But the pattern we’re seeing, with extreme highs and extreme weather in general becoming much more common, is just what you’d expect from climate change.

The usual suspects will, of course, go wild over suggestions that global warming has something to do with the food crisis; those who insist that Ben Bernanke has blood on his hands tend to be more or less the same people who insist that the scientific consensus on climate reflects a vast leftist conspiracy.

But the evidence does, in fact, suggest that what we’re getting now is a first taste of the disruption, economic and political, that we’ll face in a warming world. And given our failure to act on greenhouse gases, there will be much more, and much worse, to come.







Post#1971 at 02-08-2011 01:21 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
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Link between recent weird weather and climate change

Today's Washington Post had an article explaining how "global warming" could result in severe weather in the US. I'm quoting the entire article.

You may not remember exactly what you were doing one year ago, but odds are good you spent part of the day shoveling, buying an extra pair of gloves or replenishing your emergency stash of batteries. Odds are even better that you remember what happened just before and just after the anniversary we celebrate today. The first of a pair of major blizzards struck Washington on Feb. 5 and 6. The reprise landed on Feb. 9 and 10.

Our region experienced record snowfall last winter, topping the charts dating at least as far back as the late 1800s. In all, more than six feet of snow fell at sites such as Baltimore-Washington International Marshall Airport. Extreme weather nailed other U.S. cities last winter, too, and swaths of Europe saw unprecedented snowfalls and record cold temperatures. This year, the nation's capital has suffered one unusually severe storm. Parts of the East Coast from Atlanta to Boston have been experiencing blizzard conditions. Last week, a vast swath of the country's midsection and East Coast got deluged with sleet and snow, paralyzing travel. What gives?

Some weather scientists suspect that climate change - the menace often called global warming - is partly to blame. Although the link is far from definitive - two years of lousy weather, after all, doesn't make much of a trend - the meteorological dots are beginning to line up.

But wait a second: global warming is about the world getting warmer, right? All those greenhouse gases from burning fossil fuels trap solar radiation in the atmosphere, et cetera. If anything, winter weather seems like it should be on its way to extinction.

Weather isn't that simple, as it turns out. On average, the world is indeed getting warmer. (Even those skeptical about the human effect on Earth's climate don't dispute that fact, which is well established from year after year of upward-trending thermometer readings around the planet.) But global warming doesn't necessarily translate into warming everywhere, all the time.

To understand how warming and snowstorms may be connected, it helps to start with the epicenter of winter weather. Around the North Pole, some of the world's coldest air currents blow in what's typically a tight loop known as the polar vortex. Air masses inside the vortex tend to have not only low temperatures but also low barometric pressures compared with air outside the vortex. The surrounding high-pressure zones push in on the vortex from all sides, helping the cold air stay where it belongs, at the top of the world.

That's what happens, most of the time, at least. Occasionally, pressure inside the vortex strengthens, causing the vortex itself to become unstable, like a top that's losing its spin. When that happens, frigid polar air is more likely to escape the meteorological fence that normally confines it. The result, sometimes felt far to the south, can take the form of severe winter weather.

Over the past two years, the polar vortex has been strikingly unstable, according to meteorological data. James Overland of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration cites a couple of measures in particular: One, called the Arctic oscillation, tracks air pressure and related atmospheric variables over the North Pole. The other, the North Atlantic oscillation, takes into account similar variables in the neighborhood of Iceland. Both indexes are reliable indicators of the strength of the polar vortex.

Last winter, both indexes reflected higher air pressures and therefore less vortex stability than scientists have ever recorded. This year, both were again seriously off-kilter.

Any number of meteorological factors contributed to those anomalies. Some were undoubtedly random, Overland says. But he and other experts suspect climate change is contributing to the unusual pattern, and if they're right, things could get a whole lot worse in the years ahead.

The root of the problem, Overland says, is melting sea ice. Sea ice forms in the Arctic Ocean during the cold, dark days of fall and winter and hangs around, melting slowly but not completely vanishing, throughout the summer. In recent years, more sea ice has melted during the warm months than can be replenished during the chillier ones.

As a result, scientists have found, the total amount of arctic sea ice has shrunk; at the end of the past few summers, it has been consistently down some 30 percent when compared with historical averages of the 1980s and 1990s at that time of year. In the decades ahead, climate scientists have predicted, the amount of sea ice surviving into the late summer may fall as much as 80 percent below historical levels.

Sea ice reflects sunlight, redirecting some of the the sun's energy away from the planet. When sunlight strikes open ocean instead of ice, however, the water absorbs much of the solar radiation. So low levels of sea ice allow water temperatures to increase more than usual during the summer, when the sun is shining on the Arctic. Even as the days grow short and cold, the water's tepidity can release excess heat, which tends to increase pressure in the air above. And remember, excess pressure in the far north poses a threat to the polar vortex.

"The breakdown of the vortex is very usual," says Overland. "We've had it two years in a row. That makes you wonder.

"My speculation," he says, "is that the extra heat stored in the ocean and given to the arctic atmosphere has a tendency to support the breakdown of the vortex."

In other words, some melting ice and a moat of warmish water in the Arctic may be spawning the blasts of frigid air that keep pummeling us. How's that for a cold irony?
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#1972 at 02-08-2011 02:27 PM by Weave [at joined Feb 2010 #posts 909]
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Quote Originally Posted by The Wonkette View Post
Today's Washington Post had an article explaining how "global warming" could result in severe weather in the US. I'm quoting the entire article.
LOL, of course...if its warmer..its global warming, if its colder...global warming...how convenient! Whatever it takes to perpetuate the myth I guess







Post#1973 at 02-08-2011 02:29 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Arctic Oscillation

"The breakdown of the vortex is very usual," says Overland. "We've had it two years in a row. That makes you wonder.

"My speculation," he says, "is that the extra heat stored in the ocean and given to the arctic atmosphere has a tendency to support the breakdown of the vortex."

In other words, some melting ice and a moat of warmish water in the Arctic may be spawning the blasts of frigid air that keep pummeling us. How's that for a cold irony?
This seems plausible, but there are reasons a lot of folk won't make a stronger statement than "That makes you wonder."

I Googled for a page explaining the Arctic Oscillation, and found a familiar diagram I posted years ago on this thread, as well as an overview of the pattern. It notes that in the 1970s there was a good number of consecutive winters where the pattern persistently stuck in the opposite direction from where it has been stuck the last few years.


Left : Positive Phase 1970s ---- Right : Negative Phase 2010 & 2011

The Arctic Oscillation refers to opposing atmospheric pressure patterns in northern middle and high latitudes.

The oscillation exhibits a "negative phase" with relatively high pressure over the polar region and low pressure at midlatitudes (about 45 degrees North), and a "positive phase" in which the pattern is reversed. In the positive phase, higher pressure at midlatitudes drives ocean storms farther north, and changes in the circulation pattern bring wetter weather to Alaska, Scotland and Scandinavia, as well as drier conditions to the western United States and the Mediterranean. In the positive phase, frigid winter air does not extend as far into the middle of North America as it would during the negative phase of the oscillation. This keeps much of the United States east of the Rocky Mountains warmer than normal, but leaves Greenland and Newfoundland colder than usual. Weather patterns in the negative phase are in general "opposite" to those of the positive phase, as illustrated below.

Over most of the past century, the Arctic Oscillation alternated between its positive and negative phases. Starting in the 1970s, however, the oscillation has tended to stay in the positive phase, causing lower than normal arctic air pressure and higher than normal temperatures in much of the United States and northern Eurasia.
I'm not sure I'm remembering it right, but I believe the time of strong trade winds coming off Africa in 1970s was a time of prolonged African drought. There were alarmists saying that mankind might be changing the world's weather into a permanent and destructive pattern.

Permanent, no. Destructive, yes. Mankind's fault, maybe. Of course, we're seeing being stuck in the opposite pattern as a problem too, and it's still all mankind's fault.

My gut suggests that putting more energy into the system doesn't lock patterns like the Arctic Oscillation, Atlantic Oscillation and El Nino - La Nina into one mode or the other, but the pendulums do seem to be swinging to the extremes more often resulting in abnormal weather following the worst of either end of all the oscillations.

But that's more gut feel than anything.







Post#1974 at 02-08-2011 02:34 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Left Arrow Go ahead. Laugh.

Quote Originally Posted by Weave View Post
LOL, of course...if its warmer..its global warming, if its colder...global warming...how convenient! Whatever it takes to perpetuate the myth I guess
And that, alas, is to often the result of attempts to dig into a complicated subject. Those who don't want to see the threat will laugh at it.







Post#1975 at 02-08-2011 04:15 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
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And the last time Albuquerque had a cold snap like this was 1971. Thanks for the diagram!
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.
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