Originally Posted by The Grey Badger

I urge you to reread Cahill's How The Irish Saved Civilization and note how many manuscripts simply disappeared in the chaos. I'm suggesting this rather than taking advanced Medieval Studies courses (which go heavily into what manuscripts were preserved and/or found, and the holes in them, and the losses due to, frex, a 17th century fire that destroyed somebody's library) simply because it's extremely accessible.

The old culture is valuable, and it is best that we make as much of it accessible to as many people as possible. An eminently worthy body of ancient knowledge is the foundation of healthy modernity. Socrates and Confucius remain relevant. Sure, some of it is pure bunk, like (sorry, Eric!) astrological treatises and guides to incantations that might help one's barley crop grow even more bounteous. Yes, I can read Plato and see in his Republic early indicators of Adam Smith (who suggested that the cornerstone of prosperity is specialization of people in what they do best) and the tripartite division of personality into something similar to the id, ego, and superego of Sigmund Freud. He even portends Marshall McLuhan who wars us of the potential use of the medium to confuse people of reality in the Allegory of the Cave.

Every potential leader needs to peruse the mini-lecture that Plato offers on the importance of justice. Just people refuse to do some of the deeds that can tear a political entity asunder. It seems so obvious to many of us, but it might not have been in antiquity... and it is easy to forget when something else is more superficially attractive.

Another factor: the introduction to the Carmina Gaedelica, collected in the late 19th century, included one old woman saying proudly "We used to sing these old songs, but the missionaries came and taught us better." A comment many modern citizens of cultures and regions seen as "backwards" at that time are now lamenting and trying hard to correct.

Something that made the great composer Béla Bartók so great was his willingness to research folk music for its potential richness -- and a rediscovery of folk music as a language has allowed composers to rediscover the useful coherence of musical ideas to which people can relate irrespective of their culture.

Finally - let's take a modern science fiction novel called "Rainbow's End", I think by Vernor Vinge. Near future - next saeculum. Libraries all over the world are physically destroying their books in order to go digital. A librarian's revolt ensues. No spoilers here, but -

Mr. Vinge didn't take into account what might happen if the grid went down, since the insubstantial digital works depend on massive servers that use a lot of electricity. Children, can YOU spell "solar flare"? Or for that matter, "enemy action"?

We had better have the hard copies somewhere so that they can be made available in the event of the Grid going down. This applies as much to films and ideally duplicates of the great masterworks of art. Who knows? Solar flare, strike by a comet or asteroid that decimates the human population, global thermonuclear war...

Originally Posted by pbrower2a

The old culture is valuable, and it is best that we make as much of it accessible to as many people as possible. An eminently worthy body of ancient knowledge is the foundation of healthy modernity. Socrates and Confucius remain relevant. Sure, some of it is pure bunk, like (sorry, Eric!) astrological treatises and guides to incantations that might help one's barley crop grow even more bounteous. Yes, I can read Plato and see in his Republic early indicators of Adam Smith (who suggested that the cornerstone of prosperity is specialization of people in what they do best) and the tripartite division of personality into something similar to the id, ego, and superego of Sigmund Freud. He even portends Marshall McLuhan who wars us of the potential use of the medium to confuse people of reality in the Allegory of the Cave.

You can even see astrology and definitely tarot in Plato too!

Originally Posted by Deb C

"Global Warming: Despite President Obama’s renewed attention to climate change in his inaugural address, the White House on Wednesday ruled out a tax on carbon emissions favored by many environmentalists. White House spokesman Jay Carney was asked about legislation that Sen. Bernie Sanders plans to introduce to charge companies a fee for carbon pollution. “We have not proposed and have no intention of proposing a carbon a tax,” Carney said, according to The Washington Times, C-SPAN and Environment & Energy Daily." .... Bernie Sanders

I suppose that Obama would propose such a tax (as he did before iirc) if it had a snowball's chance of passing the Republican reactionary congress.

Originally Posted by TimWalker

Awhile there was a thread that discussed a method akin to microfilm-with itsy bitsy writing, but on metal plates. For very long term storage.

I had a similar idea, though it was large plates to prevent removal.

Also want to point out that data can be made smaller by changing medium. Movies can be condensed to scripts, recorded music to sheet music. This way Casablanca and the discography of Thelonius Monk are less likely to be deleted over porn and lolcats because they take up less space.

And Grey Badger, a good personal library is a great way to preserve what you can. It'll probably be about all the methods we can use.

Eric, the labor constriction won't stop a depression, because people produce more than they consume. We'll miss their consumption way more than we ever could their productivity. Meanwhile the last time the population is projected to have plateaued, we went from city state driven imperialism to feudalism in the west. I expect this to be a really wild and brutal depression.

Originally Posted by Kepi

I had a similar idea, though it was large plates to prevent removal.

Also want to point out that data can be made smaller by changing medium. Movies can be condensed to scripts, recorded music to sheet music. This way Casablanca and the discography of Thelonius Monk are less likely to be deleted over porn and lolcats because they take up less space.

And Grey Badger, a good personal library is a great way to preserve what you can. It'll probably be about all the methods we can use.

We will still have public libraries.

Eric, the labor constriction won't stop a depression, because people produce more than they consume. We'll miss their consumption way more than we ever could their productivity. Meanwhile the last time the population is projected to have plateaued, we went from city state driven imperialism to feudalism in the west. I expect this to be a really wild and brutal depression.

I expect not (re. circa 2100). If too many workers is the cause of depression, as you claim, then fewer workers due to population declines will be the cure.

Republicans have neanderthal minds!

And the Democrats, well, maybe cave men!
http://youtu.be/zI52-gkBXEM

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Republicans have neanderthal minds!

And the Democrats, well, maybe cave men!


http://youtu.be/zI52-gkBXEM

Oh Eric, don't be so hard on the Neandertals!

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Oh Eric, don't be so hard on the Neandertals!

If they don't believe in evolution, is it their fault they haven't evolved?

Originally Posted by B Butler

If they don't believe in evolution, is it their fault they haven't evolved?

I guess that would figure.

Global warming strikes again. I know, one tornado doesn't prove global warming. But it's just one more, and maybe the biggest ever. I feel for the victims out in Moore Oklahoma. I am thankful they are getting help. I pray for the 24 who died.

On the other hand, I am mindful that the people of Oklahoma voted for this. Here are some facts. Their two senators voted against aid to the victims of hurricane Sandy (though the local representative voted for it). They are against FEMA, which is now doing a great job there according to news reports. Sen. Imhoff is the leading climate-change denier in Washington. The school where 7 children died was not required to have a storm shelter. Save some taxes and avoid "government forcing people to do things," the libertarians and republicans no doubt said. Why are people allowed to build homes there without foolproof shelters under every house? At least they had an adequate warning system, but 24 still died and 200 got hurt.

"How many deaths will it take till he knows, that too many people have died?" The answer is blowin' in the wind. And how!

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Global warming strikes again. I know, one tornado doesn't prove global warming. But it's just one more, and maybe the biggest ever.

Sorry. Not even close.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Global warming strikes again. I know, one tornado doesn't prove global warming. But it's just one more, and maybe the biggest ever. I feel for the victims out in Moore Oklahoma. I am thankful they are getting help. I pray for the 24 who died.

On the other hand, I am mindful that the people of Oklahoma voted for this. Here are some facts. Their two senators voted against aid to the victims of hurricane Sandy (though the local representative voted for it). They are against FEMA, which is not doing a great job there according to news reports. Sen. Imhoff is the leading climate-change denier in Washington. The school where 7 children died was not required to have a storm shelter. Save some taxes and avoid "government forcing people to do things," the libertarians and republicans no doubt said. Why are people allowed to build homes there without foolproof shelters under every house? At least they had an adequate warning system, but 24 still died and 200 got hurt.

"How many deaths will it take till he knows, that too many people have died?" The answer is blowin' in the wind. And how!

Well, Progressives could sacrifice some government cash from their growing 'social charity' funds and programs which would allow the Democrats to have something to fund storm shelters that are considered needed for older schools.

Originally Posted by B Butler

If they don't believe in evolution, is it their fault they haven't evolved?

They believe that God gave us the ability to evolve vs humans doing it on their own.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

Well, Progressives could sacrifice some government cash from their growing 'social charity' funds and programs which would allow the Democrats to have something to fund storm shelters that are considered needed for older schools.

Slash help to those who need it to help those who need it. Very good. Shuffle deck chairs on the Titanic. Excellent Republican solution!

Originally Posted by The Wonkette

Oh Eric, don't be so hard on the Neandertals!

I feel bad for the Neandertals, they reigned supreme in Europe until ancient global warming showed up and made their climate more acceptable to Homo Sapiens who eventually reigned supreme and wiped them out during the process.

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

Slash help to those who need it to help those who need it. Very good. Shuffle deck chairs on the Titanic. Excellent Republican solution!

That's the way it's going to be you might as well get used it. Maybe it's time you stop relying on rich peoples money and start figuring out ways to make more of your own.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

That's the way it's going to be you might as well get used it. Maybe it's time you stop relying on rich peoples money and start figuring out ways to make more of your own.

That's not the way it's going to be, because you conservatives are going to be outvoted, and we are going to end your self-reliance meme Reaganoid madness. Rich peoples' money does not all belong to rich people; it belongs to all of us who made them rich. It IS past time you realized that. But the country will, and you rich folks or rich-folk wannabees will have to pay up. That is, pay your taxes and stop complaining. You are NOT Taxed Enough Already! You need to be taxed MORE! And you WILL BE. Go "get used to it" yourself, all you Xers!

The solution: I vote for YOU to pay more taxes!

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I feel bad for the Neandertals, they reigned supreme in Europe until ancient global warming showed up and made their climate more acceptable to Homo Sapiens who eventually reigned supreme and wiped them out during the process.

I just saw a doc on PBS that calls that into question. It was indeed climate change (probably global cooling) and not Cro Magnon that wiped out the neanderthals.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/epis...-episode/1017/

http://www.thirteen.org/13pressroom/...man-cold-case/

Originally Posted by Eric the Green

That's not the way it's going to be, because you conservatives are going to be outvoted, and we are going to end your self-reliance meme Reaganoid madness. Rich peoples' money does not all belong to rich people; it belongs to all of us who made them rich. It IS past time you realized that. But the country will, and you rich folks or rich-folk wannabees will have to pay up. That is, pay your taxes and stop complaining. You are NOT Taxed Enough Already! You need to be taxed MORE! And you WILL BE. Go "get used to it" yourself, all you Xers!

The solution: I vote for YOU to pay more taxes!

If that's the case, how long do you think we will remain committed to the left and its exploitation of democracy? The solution: I'd vote for parting ways with the left and moving forward with most of America and its economy.

They are running out of ice floes to put me on!

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

If that's the case, how long do you think we will remain committed to the left and its exploitation of democracy? The solution: I'd vote for parting ways with the left and moving forward with most of America and its economy.

What do you mean "we"? You are not committed. Democratic Left policies work fine, and always did, and always will. It's just your ideology that screwed it up. The Left IS always what is "moving forward." That is real progress. Your way is always moving backward. We need to part ways with the few who are hogging all the money. There IS no free market in this country, and there never is. Wealth and power must be pried loose from the 1%, or we lose both our democracy AND our economy. And we are losing it today because of this.

Taking money from the victims of one kind of disaster to help victims of another kind, is a zero sum game. If on the other hand you have a reasonable government redistribution of excess wealth and private power, and help for people in times of need, then that protects you and everyone else, and keeps the economy AND its rich barons going, because the poor spend money while the rich hoard it. There is no reason to resent help that is given to the poor from your taxes. It protects you too, and your economy, from the ravages of greed and recession/depression. AND from the ravages of the environmental destruction and climate change that the greedy are causing.

But what we don't need is imperial war policies to protect our industry all around the world. They can mostly protect themselves. If a country abroad wants US investment, that's good and should be encouraged. If a country does not want US companies controlling its economy, that is their right. We can protect our citizens abroad, and help protect the world from terrorists. But not by killing innocent people or invading countries. And we should be protecting our workers here too, and upholding labor and environmental standards around the world, not tearing them down so a few companies can make horrendous profits off of cheap and unsafe foreign labor.

If you don't want huge debt, then fine; balance the budget like Clinton did. Don't give out huge tax cuts, and don't wage unfunded wars. And reduce medical costs. Allow more spending or easy money when needed to stimulate the economy. Don't think you can balance the budget on the backs of the poor or disaster victims. There's not enough money there to do that.

Conservatives need to learn some basic common sense and be willing to move forward, not backward to the days of Dickens and satanic mills, or you will gradually lose support in the 21st century. You guys can act as a check on unwise liberal plans to spend too much money on everything and anything. But the extreme reactionary policies of today's Republicans are going nowhere, and if you think they are, you will be disappointed.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

If that's the case, how long do you think we will remain committed to the left and its exploitation of democracy? The solution: I'd vote for parting ways with the left and moving forward with most of America and its economy.

Democracy is something that the People can exploit for its evident benefits. Other ideologies eventually exploit the People on behalf of economic elites and political insiders. Karl Rogue exemplifies that today in America.

It boggles my mind that Republicans and their apologists and enablers in Oklahoma resist requiring shelters. In this age of global warming, tornadoes like the ones that destroyed Moore OK, Joplin MO and many other towns are going to be far more frequent than before. What is the use of putting up a building that's just going to be blown down, and will kill you if you don't have a shelter? Even schools are OK for OK to build with no shelters, and then they moan and cry when 7 children are inevitably killed. What on Earth did they expect?

Houses, schools and shopping centers were blown away to the foundation. But the foundations were not blown away. Many homes used to have basements. They can be built under concrete, underground, in the foundation. They need to be required for every home in OK, MO and all other states in tornado alley. Of course, it would help if they got Sen. Imhofe out of office too and the rest of his ilk, so that global warming could be dealt with instead of denied. But the Republicans and DINOs in OK would rather protect rich businessmen than their fellow citizens, whether it is stopping global warming OR its inevitable results. Shame on them.

Originally Posted by Classic-X'er

I feel bad for the Neandertals, they reigned supreme in Europe until ancient global warming showed up and made their climate more acceptable to Homo Sapiens who eventually reigned supreme and wiped them out during the process.

And

Originally Posted by Eric

I just saw a doc on PBS that calls that into question. It was indeed climate change (probably global cooling) and not Cro Magnon that wiped out the neanderthals.

I think Homo Sapiens made love, not war.

Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62

I think Homo Sapiens made love, not war.

The original hippies!