We already need to recover to some extent, because AGW is now inevitable. If we avoid real devastation, a 20 foot sea rise for example, there will still be problem to fix ... big ones.Originally Posted by Eric the Green
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I'm not sure that saying no to nuclear is an opening to coal and more. As people learn about the projects that are under way to educate about the danger of nuclear energy to health and safety, there will be more support for alternatives.
Do we seriously think that the same corporations that spew their pollution into the air and streams, will be any different with nuclear plants? Not to mention that there is some doubt that corporations even want to invest in anything that would require extreme regultions and oversight.
And what about our severe weather caused by global warning? Do we really think that devastating weather will just, by some small miracle, bypass reactors? Hurricane Sandy caused six reactors to close.Industry leaders will have no problem closing nuclear reactors that don’t generate expected profits. Exelon, the Chicago-based company that owns 17 of the 104 U.S. reactors, recently saw its stock price drop below $30 a share, the same level as mid-2003, and a whopping 70% below its peak of over $92 a share in mid-2008.
Maybe we need to also think about human error. When there's an accident caused by human error, it has the possibility of huge implications on the population.
In a nut shell, the following quote is from Joseph Mangano, MPH MBA, is an epidemiologist, and Executive Director of the Radiation and Public Health Project
Even with all these extensive and expensive efforts to protect the public, nukes still aren’t safe. The chance of a meltdown exists every day, from human error, natural disaster, or terrorist act. The disasters at Chernobyl in 1986 and at Fukushima last year remind us that catastrophic meltdowns that affect thousands to millions are a sobering reality. In addition to meltdowns, there is the matter of routine emissions from reactors and elevated cancer rates near reactors, demonstrated in many studies. Finally, the U. S. and other nations still have no long-term plans to store the massive amounts of hazardous nuclear waste.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
I expect that solar power will be sufficiently developed in 30 years so that nuclear power will not be needed.
http://www.wunderground.com/blog/Jef...?entrynum=2482
How forecast models have performed for hurricanes.
But here in the Midwest this summer has been cooler than normal except for one hot week in mid-July. In Chicago it was the coldest late-July period in history. It didn't top 85 from July 23 until yesterday and turned cooler again today. But to take this in a slightly different direction, do any of you forecast an end to the so-called "free market" obsession and really begin to address this issue head on?
It's not baseload and never will be. There has to be a capability to meet surge demand and just general demand at times that are dark and windless. We'll (actually you'll) need something else. Fusion is the ultimate answer, but it will be a few decades arriving. Fission is a bridge.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Like every other complex and divisive issues, we'll need to suffer first. What the trigger will be is a mystery to me ... but it has to happen eventually.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Personally, I think that abandoning our nuclear technology was a mistake. Now we will need oil and gas longer to survive.
It appears that some other countries have decided to forego atomic power and are making great strides with alternatives.
"Many of the companies at the leading edge of clean renewable technologies are not American. The jobs will be created elsewhere. The rewards will be accumulated overseas."
America's Energy Problems Are Political, Not Technological
Nuclear Power? What’s the Alternative?I 100% agree with the following.In the wake of Italy’s overwhelming rejection of high-risk atomic power, Reuters tells us:"Enel Green Power, Italy’s biggest renewable company, was up 2.9 percent and K.R.Energy was up 14 percent. Kerself was up 11.6 percent, Pramac up 11.5 percent and Ergycap up 12 percent." (Reuters, June 13)
We even have a new solar power tower design that can continue generating electricity through the night. Located in Seville, Spain this 19.9 MW plant by Torresol Energy is the first solar plant able to store enough heat to continue feeding the turbines after dark.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/06/...e-alternative/That’s quite a bit to digest, and perhaps we’ll tackle wind, tide generation, fuel cells and geothermal heat mining another day. Cold fusion? Is that for real? A whole host of inventions, proposals, implementations and outside the box ponderings awaits.
"The only Good America is a Just America." .... pbrower2a
People will feel the pain in America when
(1) they endure property losses from inundation of their property
(2) they pay higher costs for food because the climatic belts for certain crops enter the infertile Canadian Shield and Siberia
(3) they find that Big Sur begins to look like Baja
(4) alligators start eating their dogs and cats in Virginia and Missouri
(5) impenetrable mangrove swamps appear along the Gulf Coast
(6) sand dunes start impeding traffic on I-80 in Nebraska, I-76 in Colorado, and I-70 in Colorado and Kansas
By then Bangladesh will be completely inundated and the Mediterranean will have climatic conditions now seen in the Persian Gulf area.
Last edited by pbrower2a; 08-09-2013 at 11:21 PM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
The only viable bridge fuel is natural gas. Fission is not acceptable unless you want hundreds of square miles of uninhabitable radioactive land and contaminated oceans and sea-life. Deb brings up a good point. There may be some nuclear possibilities in the far future, such as thorium and fusion, but we can't be sure they won't have a lot of safety issues too. Fooling around with atomic energy is inherently dangerous. The only real way forward is renewable energy. I already filled you in on the batteries that store solar power at the thermal and rooftop facilities; you keep missing this. It is baseload; there's no doubt. A hundred square miles of solar in the desert would supply all our needs, and of course it doesn't all have to come from there, or from that, anyway. There's enough to average out the times of no sun and wind. Solar and wind are much safer, and can supply all our needs within a few years if we had a society willing to make the change. Some places in Europe, which gets much less sun than America, are doing it. Imagine if all homes and businesses/governments had solar panels on their roof; plus large thermal solar plants and wind farms. The energy crisis would be over. Other alternatives are appearing all the time; we have even heard of cars that can run on air, as well as the plug-in hybrids and all-electric vehicles that are already viable. There's biofuels, tidal and geothermal too. The problem we face is only political, plus yes the results of the damage we have already done.
You rang? Prophet Boomer answers. As I have "forecast" before, certainly this will happen by the 2020s. Whether it could start happening before that, is unclear. If more states end gerrymandering, it's a possibility. I don't see a clamour to get that done though.But to take this in a slightly different direction, do any of you forecast an end to the so-called "free market" obsession and really begin to address this issue head on....
Clearly though, the only way we can "survive" is to get OFF of fossil fuels as soon as possible.
Last edited by Eric the Green; 08-09-2013 at 01:08 PM.
I understand that solar power is not ready now to replace conventional power plants. But, research and engineering pilot plants are underway and I don't see why we could not have solar power plants in place in the next 30 years. Following is an example:
http://www.bus-ex.com/article/torresol-energy-gemasolar
Torresol Energy, Gemasolar
The heliostat field 2 APRIL, 2013 -
…"Gemasolar is an innovative 19.9 MW CSP(Concentrated Solar Power) plant, the first commercial experience in the world using molten salt thermal storage in a central tower configuration. The plant is located in Fuentes de Andalucía, Seville, and started commercial operations in May 2011. "…
…"Eventually the plant will be able to supply 24 hours of uninterrupted production per day on most summer days, providing a higher annual capacity factor than most baseload plants such as nuclear power plants."...
Yes, although the only reason it will take that long is politics.
Just what we need for such sun-baked places like Phoenix, Tucson, El Paso, Las Vegas, Dallas, San Antonio, Austin, Bakersfield, Fresno, Oklahoma City... and when the oil runs out or gets put to other uses Midland/Odessa. Solar power could also cut deep into the needs of San Francisco, San Jose, Los Angeles, San Diego, Houston...
but Germany has mostly a chilly, rainy climate. So it could be useful in places like Detroit and Youngstown. Nice uses for vacant lots?
Last edited by pbrower2a; 08-12-2013 at 07:49 AM.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Many of our politicians are 'owned' by the oil cartel and controlled through its lobbyists.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
The trends in international oil use are encouraging.
The day of the huge integrated international oil company is drawing to a close
http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...ompany-drawing
Aug 3rd 2013 | The Economist
…"The world’s new cars will have ever higher fuel efficiencies as time goes on. In March China introduced stringent fuel standards of 6.9 litres per 100km (34 miles per gallon) by 2015 and 5l/100km (47 mpg) by 2020. Such measures will not on their own cancel out the effects of the number of cars growing by 7% a year, but they will cushion them. With cars getting 3-4% more efficient each year, and trucks improving at about half that rate, analysis by Citi, a bank, shows demand in 2020 3.8m b/d below what it would be without such efficiency gains (see chart 2)."…
People do far less recreational driving than they used to in the US -- and the tendency has continued despite a partial recovery from the Lesser Depression.
The greatest evil is not now done in those sordid "dens of crime" (or) even in concentration camps and labour camps. In those we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered... in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lighted offices, by (those) who do not need to raise their voices. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."
― C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters
Solar is emerging
Is Solar Suburbia the Way to Power Modern Cities?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-modern-cities
…"Research in Auckland, New Zealand – the largest urban area in the country and a city built for the age of the motor car – shows that solar panels fitted to the average suburban home can produce enough power for that household, extra to charge an electric vehicle, and still generate enough watts to export a surplus to the grid."...
Energy production is inherently dangerous, but the US history in the nuclear industry is exceptional. Even the dreaded Three Mile Island event created no deaths or even identifiable health risks. Compare that to the many deaths mining coal and drilling for gas and oil. Also, add the impacts they create on the environment and human health in general, to say othing of the risks due to transport.
The evidence is dramatically opposed to your opinion, no matter how earnest.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
I agree, but the baseload issue is still there. No intermittant source can provide that. None.Yes, although the only reason it will take that long is politics.
Last edited by Marx & Lennon; 08-13-2013 at 03:12 PM.
Marx: Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
Lennon: You either get tired fighting for peace, or you die.
Solar and wind are not intermittant if you remember about batteries, and the grid which receives power from sources that are working when other sources are not. I've already mentioned these things.
Yeah, nuclear is actually pretty safe as far as energy production goes. I believe France's power grid is almost 100% nuclear and they've NEVER had and incident of any kind.
Plus, part of the danger of nuclear is that we've chosen to go with HUGE plants that power half a state. Accidents at plants that size are much harder to control (more likely to get truly out of hand) than more modest plants. Smaller, cheaper plants that generate less power are much safer to operate.
Only one word need be used to answer you: Fukushima.
