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Thread: Ethnic Russians rioting in Estonia - Page 2







Post#26 at 05-24-2007 12:37 PM by BigStar [at joined Sep 2006 #posts 207]
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05-24-2007, 12:37 PM #26
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Wait, are you the big talking, soft American, because I know I'm real hardcore. hahaha
"And I ain't even know how it came to this
Except that fame is
The worst drug known to man
It's stronger than, heroin
When you could look in the mirror like, 'There I am'
And still not see, what you've become
I know I'm guilty of it too but, not like them
You lost one"








Post#27 at 05-25-2007 05:29 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Semo '75 View Post
No. I think that Justin was implying that you're the big-talking soft American here. Because, you know, these Estonian Russian kids are the real hardcore. You're just not legit, 'cause you're not an ethnic Russian who's kept down by the Estonian man.

Those guys are hardcore. You? You're soft.

Just the way it is.

Just a little reality check here. Most of those kids were under 18 and drunk. They took an opportunity to express their mourning for Red Army soldiers by ... breaking into stores and making off with free booze.

One person was killed. He was a looter, stabbed by another looter, perhaps over some stolen stuff!

In one night the Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip went from looking rigid and arrogant to looking like Mr. Law and Order. He had a Sarkozy moment, if you will. I thought he was a bit weird about the whole thing before, but now I want him to stay the full four year term. Besides, he's made his bed. He alone should sleep in it

Those poor, discriminated-against Russian kids go to Russian language schools. Estonian newspapers are offered in both languages, as is TV news. Most probably have citizenship as well, because if you were born in Estonia after the restoration of independence in 1991, you get it at birth if your parents had lived here for five years before your birth. If not, you have to naturalize because you had Soviet citizenship and therefore must acquire Estonian citizenship like everyone else.

Unemployment in this country is 5.3 percent. The economy grows at nearly 10 percent per year. Yeah, that hits Russian-speakers. But my wife's cousin is also unemployed, and drunk, and you bet that he also blames the state for his woes. He speaks Estonian though, as his native language, so he can't say that it's because of his language that he is unemployed and an alcoholic.

This whole affair was orchestrated by Moscow. All of the 'leaders' -- be they local ethnic Russian politicians or 'youth groups' had long dialogues with Russian political leaders. The youth group leaders -- who are now in jail here -- got their expenses reimbursed by the Russian Federation. Nearly every day over the past year the Russian PR services have put out overemotional statements about the matter calling it a "Stalingrad" for Estonian Russians.

The intention was to turn the affair into a circus, create political fallout for Estonia's rightwing government, and have the government step down and be replaced by a Russia-friendly one. They were really upset when Ansip won a four-year term in March. The Russia overplayed its hand here, and now the European Parliament is singing Estonia's praises.

Ha. Ha.

Unlike his predecessors, Ansip is a real arrogant politician. He won't resign, ever. He's like all great parliamentary leaders, a total dick. He'll serve out his term unless his own party has a mutiny, which could happen if he stays as arrogant. But the idea that he would step down in this mess is a joke.

I think the Russians may have finally come to respect him in this manner. They hate him. But they probably appreciate that he's an asshole, because their country is run by arrogant assholes as well.

It takes one to know one.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#28 at 05-25-2007 05:41 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by BigStar View Post
Wait, are you the big talking, soft American, because I know I'm real hardcore. hahaha
We all know you are. Why else would you keep bringing it up if it weren't something obvious on its face?
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#29 at 05-25-2007 10:40 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by Semo '75 View Post
I do have a question, though. You compared PM Ansip to President Sarkozy's performance during the riots in 2005. From your position on the other side of the Atlantic, do you detect this as a growing theme? I mean, the whole "law & order" thing.
I think there is a change in politics. Across Europe you see the same thing, a collapse of post-war social democratic parties and the rise of neoliberal parties. France is a good example this year. Less known is Finland, where "conservatives" (for Finland's political spectrum) won in March. Two years ago it was Germany. Estonia's previous government was more moderate. It elected a rightwing government in March.

On the flipside, you find some left-leaning governments (Britain, Italy) having to foster 'clean' images to outflank their rightwing competitors or to distinguish themselves from their corrupt predecessors.

"Law and order" is the bread butter of right-leaning politics. It's like "health care and better schools" for lefties. It's an easy way to look good for your constituency.

Obviously, each country is going to have its own issues -- in the core countries of Continental Europe, it's mostly centered around immigration from Muslim countries, although I suspect that the tendency to move toward trying to attract immigrants from Eastern Europe may create different (but related) tensions. In either case, people are certainly taking these issues much more seriously than they were just four or five years ago.

Is the Estonian situation similar to that?
Things have been left to fester for too long. I think the Estonians know, just as the Dutch know, that they have to nip this stuff in the bud. Yet, as in France and as in The Netherlands, there is little political movement on the issue. There is widespread awareness that there is a problem. And people on the street and in pubs are talking about solutions. But there is no real "plan' other than touchy feely "let's have a more increased dialogue" from the politicians.

Frankly, I am not sure much can be done. The reality is that as tolerant as the Dutch are, it's still The Netherlands, and no, you can't build a little Caliphate in The Netherlands. The reality is, as tolerant as the Estonians are, yeah, this country is 70 percent Estonian-speaking, the official language is Estonian, and you are going to have to learn this language if you want to go to the big universities or get a good job.

There's political reasons for these troubles, and I think that one might be the great *lie* of tolerant Europe. Europe allows immigrants to move in. But tolerance doesn't mean you get to change Europe to look like Somalia or to make it look like your country, no matter how European it might be -- Russians in Estonia, Turks in Germany come to mind.

You've got to respect the existing culture. And I think a lot of people thought that "tolerance" meant that they could just ignore the existing culture indefinitely.
Last edited by Uzi; 05-25-2007 at 10:43 AM.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#30 at 05-25-2007 11:48 AM by salsabob [at Washington DC joined Jan 2005 #posts 746]
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Quote Originally Posted by BigStar View Post
Wait, are you the big talking, soft American, because I know I'm real hardcore. hahaha
BigS -

Every one knows Teddy's "Speak softly and carry a big stick."

Much lesser known is old Native American saying "Man with big mouth, usually has small stick." ;-o
Last edited by salsabob; 05-25-2007 at 12:22 PM.
"Che l'uomo il suo destin fugge di raro [For rarely man escapes his destiny]" - Ludovico Ariosto







Post#31 at 05-25-2007 12:11 PM by salsabob [at Washington DC joined Jan 2005 #posts 746]
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Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Reed View Post
I found this interesting.

Russia accused of cyberwar
For me, this is the most interesting (important?) aspect of the Estonian-Russian row.

John Robb has an interesting take on this -

http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/...ernet_ebo.html

A second preview (the first was the disruption of Georgian energy systems in 2006) of 21st Century state vs. state conflict can be seen in Russia's attack on Estonia (which has ramped rapidly since it began at the end of April). In this case, as opposed to the physical disruption of systems used against Georgia, the Russians have opted to use the Internet as a weapon. Russia's denial of service attacks (computer attacks that shut down Web sites by flooding them with traffic) by phisher and extortionist botnets (composed of over 1 million compromised/infected computers), have spread beyond attacks on government computers to attacks on banks, ISPs, newspapers, universities, and a host of private businesses (the effects of these attacks are exacerbated by the heavy reliance Estonia has placed on e-government/economy infrastructure). The sophistication of these attacks has also increased.

This type of campaign is similar to the effects based operations (EBO) conducted by the US Air Force against Iraq (twice) and the systems disruption we see from global guerrillas around the world. In all cases the aim of the attacks is to disrupt the target society, leaving it prostrate and unable to function as a modern country (read Brave New War for background on this).

Another interesting aspect of this campaign is that it is being conducted by a combination of government agencies and outsourced talent from the Internet black marketplace (and many hackers joy riding for free since the Russian government declared open season on Estonia). The end-result is that the free form, open source nature of this campaign has allowed the Russian government a level of deniability. We see similar developments going on in China. It's important to point out that this is different than the trend towards states adopting fourth generation warfare as their primary defensive strategy against conventional attack (Iran/Syria/Venezuela/etc.). In this case, Russia (and it seems China too) has adopted the offensive power of global guerrillas
However, he points out in a follow-up post, that in parallel to the advantages offered by the global platform to non-state entities over nation-states, the smaller/quicker nation-states could have comparable significant advantages over larger cumbersome bureaucratic states that have a lot more infrastructure to be made vulnerable -- i.e., Russia is playing with fire, and what was advantageous to them in the past (much greater size) will now likely emerge as a substantial disadvantage --
http://globalguerrillas.typepad.com/...l_a_new_m.html

... What's more important is the intangible: the desire of the Estonians to not let this happen again. I suspect that defensive precautions, although necessary, would be expensive and would not serve as a deterrent to future attacks. The key is to develop an offensive capability that draws on the lessons of the cold war.

MAD

During the cold war, the doctrine of MAD (mutually assured destruction) led to the end of direct warfare between the major powers. The potential that any conventional conflict could slide into a nuclear war, where both the attacker and the defender were destroyed (a Nash equilibrium), was the deterrent. We may shortly see a reprise of this concept for warfare between states in an interdependent world, where disruption replaces destruction in a new MAD.

In a globally competitive marketplace, ongoing disruption of a single country's economic system can result in rapid declines in relative performance. Computer assaults can accomplish this result with a high level of deniability. The option for Estonia is clear, will it establish a similar capability alone (or in conjunction with other states to form an umbrella of protection) to make the new MAD a reality? The best approach for this is to develop an open source network of hackers/black marketeers that can match the Russians. That shouldn't be hard. It's also possible to easily scale the impact of the attacks such that the damage to the larger state is equal or greater than to the smaller state. Much more thinking needs to be done on this since it could be triggered by non-state actors...
Last edited by salsabob; 05-25-2007 at 12:22 PM.
"Che l'uomo il suo destin fugge di raro [For rarely man escapes his destiny]" - Ludovico Ariosto







Post#32 at 05-25-2007 01:56 PM by jamesdglick [at Clarksville, TN joined Mar 2007 #posts 2,007]
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Russian Public Drunkeness?

[quote=Uzi;199275]
"Just a little reality check here. Most of those kids were under 18 and drunk. They took an opportunity to express their mourning for Red Army soldiers by ... breaking into stores and making off with free booze."

-In other words, they showed their respect for the Red Army by... acting like the Red Army.







Post#33 at 05-25-2007 02:36 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
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Talking

Hilarious, Salsabob.







Post#34 at 05-26-2007 02:57 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
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Quote Originally Posted by jamesdglick View Post
-In other words, they showed their respect for the Red Army by... acting like the Red Army.
words, words, words.
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky







Post#35 at 05-26-2007 06:02 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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Quote Originally Posted by jamesdglick View Post
-In other words, they showed their respect for the Red Army by... acting like the Red Army.
Don't think you are the only one who noticed. Afterwards there were lots of interviews with older people in Tallinn who basically said, "young drunk Russians destroying our town ... what else is new?"

Hardly PC, but not uninformed either.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu







Post#36 at 05-26-2007 06:04 AM by Uzi [at joined Oct 2005 #posts 2,254]
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05-26-2007, 06:04 AM #36
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Quote Originally Posted by salsabob View Post
The option for Estonia is clear, will it establish a similar capability alone (or in conjunction with other states to form an umbrella of protection) to make the new MAD a reality? The best approach for this is to develop an open source network of hackers/black marketeers that can match the Russians. That shouldn't be hard. It's also possible to easily scale the impact of the attacks such that the damage to the larger state is equal or greater than to the smaller state. Much more thinking needs to be done on this since it could be triggered by non-state actors...
I presume that the Nashi website would have been taken out long ago, but for the fact that it provides information on the doings of the Putin jugend.

Finding global black marketeers shouldn't be hard. There is antipathy everywhere. Can you believe that people actually threw rocks at the Russian embassy in Stockholm? Unless it was Russians hired to distract attention for the siege of the Estonian embassy in Moscow, ie. they threw the stones themselves. But Sweden? The least aggressive country in the world (TM)?

The newspaper I sometimes write for here received a letter in support of Estonia from a retired Portuguese officer who recounted that when the Soviet-trained guerillas fought in Angola in 1975 they blew up every statue they could get their hands on. He also mentioned the fact that he left many thousands of his comrades behind there in Angola. I couldn't believe that that kind of anti-Soviet hostility existed in Lisbon, of all places, thirty years after the fact.

So the sentiment is out there, lurking on the Internet.
Last edited by Uzi; 05-26-2007 at 06:12 AM.
"It's easy to grin, when your ship's come in, and you've got the stock market beat. But the man who's worth while is the man who can smile when his pants are too tight in the seat." Judge Smails, Caddyshack.

"Every man with a bellyful of the classics is an enemy of the human race." Henry Miller.

1979 - Generation Perdu
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