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Thread: A Nobel Laureate and The Fourth Great Awakening - Page 11







Post#251 at 02-08-2003 08:28 PM by DMMcG [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 249]
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Post#252 at 02-08-2003 08:51 PM by David Krein [at Gainesville, Florida joined Jul 2001 #posts 604]
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David, old friend, does this mean if I live long enough to get through this (coming?) Crisis, I should look forward to the Silver Age of the "Good Emperors"? Who, I wonder, will our Nerva be?

Pax,

Dave Krein







Post#253 at 02-09-2003 10:55 AM by DMMcG [at joined Jul 2001 #posts 249]
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Hello David, good to hear from you! Interestingly, nomad archetype Nerva was a generational contemporary of Paul, Clement, and Vespasian. More likely the immediate future will give us a Vespasian type rather than a Nerva. That is to suggest, is dictatorship in America's future? DMMcG







Post#254 at 02-12-2003 11:49 PM by ASchmidt [at joined Feb 2003 #posts 1]
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nomad, wandering wondering

..........
Last edited by ASchmidt; 11-15-2007 at 05:34 PM. Reason: irrelevant to disussion







Post#255 at 07-17-2003 10:01 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by Croaker'39
Although I have not yet read Fogel?s ?The Fourth Great Awakening & The Future of Egalitarianism,? I found a nice summary of his ?four great awakenings.? By way of temporal thumbnails, this is how they compare to S&H?s awakenings:

Fogel?s ?First Great Awakening??1730-1830 v. S&H?s ?The Great Awakening??1727-1746 (the 2nd turning of the Revolutionary Saeculum?1704-1794)

Fogel?s ?Second Great Awakening??1800-1920 v. S&H?s ?Transcendental Awakening??1822-1844 (the 2nd turning of the Civil War Saeculum?1794-1865)

Fogel?s ?Third Great Awakening??1890-? v. S&H?s ?Third Great Awakening??1886-1908 (the 2nd turning of the Great Power Saeculum?1865-1946)

Fogel?s ?Fourth Great Awakening??1960-? v. S&H?s ?Consciousness Revolution??1964-1984 (2nd turning of the Millennial Saeculum?1946-?)

Numerical congruency is not well served. With only this to go on, I am not yet so charmed by Fogel. Does he analyze S&H in his book? Has another wheel been reinvented awkwardly? S&H incorporate seasonality into their turnings, while Fogel does not seem so cyclically oriented. This tends to be a problem for me. What?s the physical driver? Where?s the natural process? Where?s Princess Summer-Spring Winter-Fall?

When I find the time, Marc, I?ll go looking for that damsel to see if she can kiss my froggie forehead.
Quote Originally Posted by Professor McGuiness
My understanding that modernism vs fundamentalism is the archetypical dialectical description of the "mechanics" of the Hegelian antithesis, that is produced, in its fullest form, during an unravelng, revitalized during a crisis, sythesized during the high and reborn in a "period of individual stress."
Ok, I've finally come to a light-bulb moment on this Fogel/Hegel, Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, thing.

Let us consider the S&H take on this "synthesis" thing (something every one agrees with), and consider a Thesis, antithesis, unsynthesis into the equation.

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis = Two turnings: Winter/Spring
Thesis, antithesis, unsynthesis = Two turnings: Summer/Fall

:wink:







Post#256 at 07-17-2003 10:25 PM by [at joined #posts ]
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Quote Originally Posted by ....
Let us consider the S&H take on this "synthesis" thing (something every one agrees with), and consider a Thesis, antithesis, unsynthesis into the equation.

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis = Two turnings: Winter/Spring
Thesis, antithesis, unsynthesis = Two turnings: Summer/Fall
Actually, given the true nature of the "seasons," would not a more true representation be charactrized as follows:

Thesis, antithesis, synthesis = Two turnings: Fall/Winter
Thesis, antithesis, unsynthesis = Two turnings: Spring/Summer

Food, for the gods, for thot. :wink:







Post#257 at 10-01-2005 01:12 AM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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The Evolution Of Civilizations by Carroll Quigley

"It would seem then that the period after 450 B.C. (in the eastern Mediterranean at least) had the chief, if not all, features of an Age of Conflict. Similarly, the following period in the eastern Mediterranean had many of the features of an Age of Universal Empire....

"...The conquests of Alexander the Great...established a 'core' or preliminary universal empire and some of the features of this fifth stage in the evolution of civilization continued, in spite of the subsequent breakup of that empire...The chief of these features was the creation of a far-flung commercial unity that encouraged distant trade and geographic division of labor. In a full universal empire, such as existed in the Roman Empire under the Antonines, this would have been carried on to include a single monetary system, a unified legal system, and other aspects of unified rule and would have given rise to a period of peace and prosperity to which we apply the term 'Golden Age'...."







Post#258 at 11-17-2005 12:05 AM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Syncretic culture-just in religion?

Ancient Greece by Don Nardo. Regarding the Hellenistic Age:

"...Greek architecture was widely admired and copied. Before the Hellenistic Age, most of the great Greek public buildings had been temples, such as the Parthenon. Hellenistic architects and builders adopted Greek temple styles to government buildings and libraries, which were often located at the center of a city. Sometimes, the architects incorporated features and details from Egyptian, Persian, or other kinds of buildings, creating stunning new Greek like styles."







Post#259 at 01-01-2006 02:16 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Ataraxia

The Hellenistic Age featured a search for peace of mind.

The Hellenistic World by F.W. Walbank; quoting:

"'Pleasure' consisted in having one's desires satisfied rather than in the act of satisfying them and the pleasure to be derived from a mind at rest, from imperturbability (ataraxia), was to be set far above the pleasures of the body...."







Post#260 at 01-01-2006 02:38 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Ataraxia, Orientalization, and Buddhism

National Geographic, Dec. '05, Buddha Rising by Perry Garfinkel

Article re: Buddhism spreading around the world, including Europe and America. Article describes Buddhism's appeal to those in search of peace of mind.

The Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, quoting:

1. There is suffering in the world, whether mental or physical.

2. Suffering occurs because of too great an attachment to one's desires.

3. By eliminating the cause-attachment-you can eliminate suffering.

4. There is a method to eliminating the cause, called the Eightfold Path, a guide to 'right' behavior and thoughts. The Eightfold Path is a moral compass leading to a life of wisdom (right views, right intent), virtue (right speech, conduct, livelihood), and mental discipline (effort, mindfulness, concentration).

Unquote.







Post#261 at 01-01-2006 02:57 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Budhha article continued

Perry wrote:

"...Some people argue that the Buddha was right, that Buddhism should not be categorized as a religion but as a philosophy or form of psychology. After all, unlike other religions, there is no supreme being, and it encourages you to question-even challenge-authority.

"...There are those in my generation, growing up in the latter half of the 20th century, who were attracted to these traits of Buddhism. It was nondogmatic (we distrusted authority); it relied on evidence you could test with your own senses (ours was the age when science became the new god); it suggested that you, not some external force, hold the answeres to your own happiness (we were on the front lines of the Me Decade); it saw your mind as both the obstacle and the key to truly understanding yourself (enter Dr. Freud and psychoanalysis)."







Post#262 at 04-15-2006 04:35 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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The Founders of the Western World by Michael Grant

Quoting:

"...while the Hellenistic states and societies lasted they constituted a civilization in their own right, one of those that rank high in the history of the world-the western world, that is, for despite the non-Greek populations of the enormous Hellenistic kingdoms, their improtant creations, and those of the city-states, remained Greek in almost every field, with only modest infusions from the other eastern cultures that they temporarily overran."







Post#263 at 05-09-2006 11:36 AM by dmmcguiness [at joined Mar 2006 #posts 3]
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It goes like this: 4 123 4. Strauss & Howe have the saeculum ending in the 4th turning crisis and beginning in the 1st turning High. My idea is that the saeculum begins in the Awakening (time of individual stress) and comes to a close at the end of the high (steady state). Thus the high should be counted as a 4th turning and not, as Strauss and Howe suggest, a 1st turning. The rythm of the saeculum falls between 4th turning highs.







Post#264 at 05-09-2006 02:57 PM by Mr. Reed [at Intersection of History joined Jun 2001 #posts 4,376]
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Quote Originally Posted by dmmcguiness
It goes like this: 4 123 4. Strauss & Howe have the saeculum ending in the 4th turning crisis and beginning in the 1st turning High. My idea is that the saeculum begins in the Awakening (time of individual stress) and comes to a close at the end of the high (steady state). Thus the high should be counted as a 4th turning and not, as Strauss and Howe suggest, a 1st turning. The rythm of the saeculum falls between 4th turning highs.
Actually, this is actually S&H's idea. Read their 1991 book Generations.
"The urge to dream, and the will to enable it is fundamental to being human and have coincided with what it is to be American." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson
intp '82er







Post#265 at 05-10-2006 01:04 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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asdfasfasedfasfasdf
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#266 at 05-10-2006 01:05 AM by Roadbldr '59 [at Vancouver, Washington joined Jul 2001 #posts 8,275]
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Quote Originally Posted by dmmcguiness
It goes like this: 4 123 4. Strauss & Howe have the saeculum ending in the 4th turning crisis and beginning in the 1st turning High. My idea is that the saeculum begins in the Awakening (time of individual stress) and comes to a close at the end of the high (steady state). Thus the high should be counted as a 4th turning and not, as Strauss and Howe suggest, a 1st turning. The rythm of the saeculum falls between 4th turning highs.
Well... the Romans considered the calendar to begin with Spring, not Winter. That's why the months September through December are so named... they used to be the seventh through tenth months, respectively.

But in the end... does it really matter whether we call a High a First or Fourth Turning? The saecular rhythm remains the same. Although one has to admit the very term "Fourth Turning" has a far more ominous ring of finality to it... perfect for a Crisis Era... than "Third Turning" does.
"Better hurry. There's a storm coming. His storm!!!" :-O -Abigail Freemantle, "The Stand" by Stephen King







Post#267 at 05-10-2006 11:25 PM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Janus...

Quote Originally Posted by Roadbldr '59
Well... the Romans considered the calendar to begin with Spring, not Winter. That's why the months September through December are so named... they used to be the seventh through tenth months, respectively.
Well, no. September, October, November and December were the seventh, eighth, ninth and tenth months of the old ten month Roman calendar. Julius and Augustus Caesar messed that up by adding July and August, in the heart of the campaign season, to create a twelve month calendar. Both before and after the changes, the year always began with January, named for Janus, the two faced god of beginnings and endings, who looked back to the prior year, and ahead to the next.

Janus

As the god of beginnings, Janus was publicly invoked on the first day of January, the month that was named for him because it began the new year. He was also invoked at the beginning of wars, during which the doors to his temple in the forum always stood open; when Rome was at peace the doors were closed.







Post#268 at 05-11-2006 01:01 AM by Andy '85 [at Texas joined Aug 2003 #posts 1,465]
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Actually, January and February were the months that were added into the 10 month Roman calendar, not July and August. January and February were actually added to the end of the calendar later on soon after the Roman society was established. The new year started on the Ides of March and that wasn't changed to January 1 until the middle of the 2nd century BC. July and August were once Quintilis and Sextilis before their respective emperors changed them.

Link from Wikipedia describing the Roman calendar system.
Right-Wing liberal, slow progressive, and other contradictions straddling both the past and future, but out of touch with the present . . .

"We also know there are known unknowns.
That is to say, we know there are some things we do not know." - Donald Rumsfeld







Post#269 at 05-12-2006 09:53 AM by Bob Butler 54 [at Cove Hold, Carver, MA joined Jul 2001 #posts 6,431]
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Quote Originally Posted by Andy '85
Actually, January and February were the months that were added into the 10 month Roman calendar, not July and August. January and February were actually added to the end of the calendar later on soon after the Roman society was established. The new year started on the Ides of March and that wasn't changed to January 1 until the middle of the 2nd century BC. July and August were once Quintilis and Sextilis before their respective emperors changed them.

Link from Wikipedia describing the Roman calendar system.
Hmm... The version I found has the early Roman Years always ending with December, but not starting up again until March. There were a bunch of days in winter that weren't much good for either agriculture or military conquest, so they weren't counted. It was a lunar calendar, so they adjusted a lot, with the uncounted days acting as a buffer. Part of the adjustment was political. If you can change the year around, you can keep officials in power or kick them out of power by changing the time a year starts or ends. Julius Caesar's reforms did include a 12 month system with a year round year, including January as the first month. This didn't stick until Pope Gregory's time. In the old military society, the year started in March when the armies marched.

Maybe that's the answer. Can we reform the calendar, and declare it 2008? :wink:







Post#270 at 05-14-2006 03:50 PM by Tim Walker '56 [at joined Jun 2001 #posts 24]
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Seattle parks

I read that there are plans for a Chinese garden. Seattle already has a Japanese garden.







Post#271 at 05-29-2006 12:39 AM by dmmcguiness [at joined Mar 2006 #posts 3]
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HEADS OF GOVERNMENT AND HEADS OF STATE

If the Actual Warfare Turning of the 4th Great Awakening began in 2001 then this crisis period is the first to produce six active or future generations that are or will be Heads of Governments and Heads of State. This was so since hero archetype John-Paul II did not die until 2005. So, in 2001, the 6th generation of super-super elder hero archetypes appeared in the person of John-Paul II the only one of his generation (GI) to still be Head of State after 2001.

Since 2001 the 5th generation of the super-elder artist (silent) generation has been and is represented by Jacques Chirac.

After 2001 and to the present, all of the other heads of states are a 4th generation of elder prophets (boomers).

Since 2001 the midlife 3rd generation of nomads have yet to produce a head of state and obviously the same can be said for the 2nd generation of young adult heroes and a newly birthing 1st generation of artist children.

This is interesting since each of the eleven turnings during the 212 years (19 years per turning) from the onset of the Steady State Turning of the First Great Awakening in 1794 to the present has produced 5 generations of heads of state or government.

The eleven turnings during the 277 years (25 years per turning) from the onset of the Spiritual Warare Turning of the Lutheran Awakening in 1517 to the end of the Actual Warfare Turning of the First Great Awakening in 1794 produced 10 turnings with 4 generations and one turning, which I will discuss later, that has 5 generations.

The eleven turnings during the 226 years (21 year per turning) from the onset of the Cultural Warfare Turning of the Second Orientalization II Awakening in 1231 to the end of the Steady State Turning of the Hussite Awakening in 1517 also produced 10 turnings with four generations and one turning, which I will also discuss later, that has 3 generations

The eleven turnings during the 295 years (27 years per turning) from the onset of the Actual Warfare Turning of the Ottonian Awakening in 936 to the end of the Spiritual Warfare Turning of the Second Orientalization III in 1231 also produced 10 turnings with 4 generations and one turning, which I will also discuss, that can be described as having, five, four, or three generations.

The ten turnings during the 304 years (30 years per turning) from the onset of the Spiritual Warfare Turning of the Byzantine Awakening in 632 to the end of the Cultural Warfare Turning of the Ottonian Awakening in 936 produced four turnings with four generations and six turnings with three generations. Three is the standard number of generations per turning in antiquity.

So between 1794 and the present five generations per turning has been the norm with the possibility that the present has produced six generations. But during the 858 years and thirty-three turning between 936 and 1794 there have been thirty turnings with four generations and three with either 5, 4, or 3 generations.. Between 632 and 936 the ten turnings divided with 60% at three generations and 40% at four generations







Post#272 at 05-30-2006 02:31 AM by dmmcguiness [at joined Mar 2006 #posts 3]
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HEADS OF GOVERNMENT AND HEADS OF STATE CONT.

The sixteen turnings during the 501 years (31 years per turning)) from the onset of the Spiritual Warfare Turning of the Sassanid Awakening in 131 to the end of the Steady State Turning of the Hibernian Awakening in 632 produced four turnings with four generations and twelve turnings with three generations. In antiquity three generations per turning is the norm.

Three of the four turnings with four generations "cluster" between the onset of the Steady State turning of the Augustinian Awakening in 476 and the end of the Actual Warfare turning of the Hibernian Awakening in 603. This represents something of a population "blip." Of the four generations living as Heads of State or Government during the Steady State turning of the Augustinian Awakening 476-507 three reach their collective elderhood while one does not live beyond its midlife.

The nomad archetypes, whose childhood had been spent during the Spiritual Warfare turning of the Augustinian Awakening 388-421, had entered upon their collective elderhood. Likewise the hero archetypes, whose childhood had been spent during the Cultural Warfare turning of the Augustinian Awakening 421-451, had entered upon their collective midlife and would go on to an elderhood spent in the Spiritual Warfare turning of the Hibernian Awakening 507-534.

It was the artist archetype generation that came of age as young adults during the Steady State turning of the Augustinian Awakening 476-507 that did not live beyond its midlife that was spent in the Spiritual Warfare turning of the Hibernian Awakening 507-534. This artist archetype generation had spent its collective childhood during the Actual Warfare turning of the Augustinian Awakening 451-476.

The prophet archetypes spending their collective childhoods during the Steady State turning of the Augustinian Awakening 476-507 would go on to their collective elderhood during the Actual Warfare turning of the Hibernian Awakening 568-603







Post#273 at 07-02-2007 05:20 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Waterworld poster

@
Last edited by TimWalker; 04-06-2009 at 02:13 PM.







Post#274 at 07-02-2007 06:00 PM by pbrower2a [at "Michigrim" joined May 2005 #posts 15,014]
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Quote Originally Posted by DMMcG View Post
Hello David, good to hear from you! Interestingly, nomad archetype Nerva was a generational contemporary of Paul, Clement, and Vespasian. More likely the immediate future will give us a Vespasian type rather than a Nerva. That is to suggest, is dictatorship in America's future? DMMcG
Karl Rogue -- excuse the Freudian slip -- Karl ROVE, who has exercised great power through his command of the Republican Party may have been our dictator between 2001 and 2006. The man wielded legislative, executive, and judicial power (tampering with the federal prosecutors) without having been elected, appointed with a vote and confirmed by Congress, or being a formal employee of the federal government and subject to firing for misdeeds indicates a new and dangerous pattern in American politics. That he hasn't been fired for poor performance by the GOP in the 2006 elections indicates that he still has undue power.

I wonder what he has up his sleeve for 2008. Should he have a fresh puppet to succeed Dubya and he win election (probably in a rigged election), then our democratic experience is over.

We are one rigged election away from a full-blown dictatorship.







Post#275 at 12-19-2007 09:08 PM by TimWalker [at joined May 2007 #posts 6,368]
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Is the Age of Aquarius a Hellenistic Age compressed in time?
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