Generational Dynamics
Fourth Turning Forum Archive


Popular links:
Generational Dynamics Web Site
Generational Dynamics Forum
Fourth Turning Archive home page
New Fourth Turning Forum

Thread: Cusper Presidents - Page 2







Post#26 at 05-26-2007 04:42 AM by Tristan [at Melbourne, Australia joined Oct 2003 #posts 1,249]
---
05-26-2007, 04:42 AM #26
Join Date
Oct 2003
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Posts
1,249

Quote Originally Posted by jamesdglick View Post
Of the 42 men who have been president, 9 were cuspers:

Jackson 1767
JQ Adams 1767
Buchannan 1791
Grant 1822
Hayes 1822
McKinnley 1843
FDR 1882
Carter 1924
Bush '41 1924
I would say nearly all of them fitted their generation's archetype pretty well, especially Adams, Jackson, Buchanan, Grant and FDR. Although Carter who was more Silent, due to never being in actual combat in WW2 (he was a Navel Cadet during D-Day).
"The f****** place should be wiped off the face of the earth".

David Bowie on Los Angeles







Post#27 at 05-26-2007 09:42 AM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
05-26-2007, 09:42 AM #27
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

Extremely OT, but -

I am reminded that Ludwig von Beethoven was, musically, a cusper - both the last of the Classical composers and the first of the Romantics. I have forgotten where he was generationally (need to look it up) but tend to think of him as Prophet. Reared more like a Nomad, though, abusive father and all.

Mozart, of course, was squarely at the height of the Classical period and totally Artist gen. (And reared like one! Talk about a 'helicopter father!')
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#28 at 05-26-2007 10:12 AM by Tristan [at Melbourne, Australia joined Oct 2003 #posts 1,249]
---
05-26-2007, 10:12 AM #28
Join Date
Oct 2003
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Posts
1,249

Quote Originally Posted by The Grey Badger View Post
I am reminded that Ludwig von Beethoven was, musically, a cusper - both the last of the Classical composers and the first of the Romantics. I have forgotten where he was generationally (need to look it up) but tend to think of him as Prophet. Reared more like a Nomad, though, abusive father and all.

Mozart, of course, was squarely at the height of the Classical period and totally Artist gen. (And reared like one! Talk about a 'helicopter father!')
Mozart was a Hero, he came of age during a 4T for Europe (French revolution being the climax). His upbringing and mindset are very much that of a Hero, very rationalist guy. His father was extremely involved in his son's life and Mozart as a kid was seen as a superhuman genius. Very much like what Millennial progenies are seen as.

Beethoven is either a late wave Hero or a Early wave Artist. Although I strongly feel he is a Hero as well, some of his works celebrate heroism and struggle.

Interesting enough the Classical gave way to the Romantic style of music when the Compromiser peers started composing and Romantic era was well under away when the European peers of the Transcendentalists (Wagner and Verdi are totally Prophet) were starting to compose.
"The f****** place should be wiped off the face of the earth".

David Bowie on Los Angeles







Post#29 at 05-26-2007 01:38 PM by The Grey Badger [at Albuquerque, NM joined Sep 2001 #posts 8,876]
---
05-26-2007, 01:38 PM #29
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Albuquerque, NM
Posts
8,876

Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Mozart was a Hero, he came of age during a 4T for Europe (French revolution being the climax). His upbringing and mindset are very much that of a Hero, very rationalist guy. His father was extremely involved in his son's life and Mozart as a kid was seen as a superhuman genius. Very much like what Millennial progenies are seen as.

Beethoven is either a late wave Hero or a Early wave Artist. Although I strongly feel he is a Hero as well, some of his works celebrate heroism and struggle.

Interesting enough the Classical gave way to the Romantic style of music when the Compromiser peers started composing and Romantic era was well under away when the European peers of the Transcendentalists (Wagner and Verdi are totally Prophet) were starting to compose.
Thanks for the correction.
How to spot a shill, by John Michael Greer: "What you watch for is (a) a brand new commenter who (b) has nothing to say about the topic under discussion but (c) trots out a smoothly written opinion piece that (d) hits all the standard talking points currently being used by a specific political or corporate interest, while (e) avoiding any other points anyone else has made on that subject."

"If the shoe fits..." The Grey Badger.







Post#30 at 05-28-2007 05:50 AM by Tristan [at Melbourne, Australia joined Oct 2003 #posts 1,249]
---
05-28-2007, 05:50 AM #30
Join Date
Oct 2003
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Posts
1,249

Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarök_62 View Post
Yes, this is much better model.
One more Prez for the cusper list. Truman May 8, 1884.
Truman was a classic Nomad.
"The f****** place should be wiped off the face of the earth".

David Bowie on Los Angeles







Post#31 at 05-28-2007 06:15 AM by 1990 [at Savannah, GA joined Sep 2006 #posts 1,450]
---
05-28-2007, 06:15 AM #31
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Savannah, GA
Posts
1,450

Quote Originally Posted by Tristan View Post
Truman was a classic Nomad.
And FDR was a classic Prophet, but they were both cuspers.
My Turning-based Map of the World

Thanks, John Xenakis, for hosting my map

Myers-Briggs Type: INFJ







Post#32 at 05-29-2007 11:20 AM by jamesdglick [at Clarksville, TN joined Mar 2007 #posts 2,007]
---
05-29-2007, 11:20 AM #32
Join Date
Mar 2007
Location
Clarksville, TN
Posts
2,007

Carter the Cusper; Cuspers in other fields

[quote=Tristan;199351]
"...Although Carter who was more Silent, due to never being in actual combat in WW2 (he was a Navel Cadet during D-Day)."

-Depends on your definition of "combat". He did a midshipman's cruise on a destroyer in the Carribean looking for U-Boats, and they presumeably were looking for him. But I don't think his vessel ever made contact, and as a midshipman, he was more trainee than leader. During a crisis war, Civic-Heroes aren't just participants, they tend to end up as junior leaders (NCOs & officers) in charge of Adaptive/Artists. This makes Carter's WWII experience almost the perfect GI/Silent cusper amalgram.


"...Truman was a classic Nomad."

"...And FDR was a classic Prophet, but they were both cuspers."

-My original point about cusper presidents being more electable isn't that they themselves are neccessarily a blend of two generations, but that they can relate to & understand two different generations.

Does anyone have solid dates for the generational breakdowns for 18th century Europe re Beethoven? It'd be interesting if my cusper theory has a wider application than just political leaders.







Post#33 at 09-24-2007 12:33 PM by jamesdglick [at Clarksville, TN joined Mar 2007 #posts 2,007]
---
09-24-2007, 12:33 PM #33
Join Date
Mar 2007
Location
Clarksville, TN
Posts
2,007

2008 Cuspers in the Race

The following cuspers (strictly defined) are running:

Fred Thompson (b.1942, R)
Barak Obama (b. 1961, D)

I'm using the official S&H generation dates; using S&H's degeneracy graph ("Generations" p. 53), the first Xer year could be anywhere between 1961 & 1964, which could make Obama either a Very Late Boomer, a Boomer (cusp Xer), an Xer (cusp Boomer), or a Very Early Xer. Anyway, he's the only one to come close the being an Xer.







Post#34 at 09-24-2007 01:46 PM by The Wonkette [at Arlington, VA 1956 joined Jul 2002 #posts 9,209]
---
09-24-2007, 01:46 PM #34
Join Date
Jul 2002
Location
Arlington, VA 1956
Posts
9,209

Quote Originally Posted by jamesdglick View Post
The following cuspers (strictly defined) are running:

Fred Thompson (b.1942, R)
Barak Obama (b. 1961, D)

I'm using the official S&H generation dates; using S&H's degeneracy graph ("Generations" p. 53), the first Xer year could be anywhere between 1961 & 1964, which could make Obama either a Very Late Boomer, a Boomer (cusp Xer), an Xer (cusp Boomer), or a Very Early Xer. Anyway, he's the only one to come close the being an Xer.
More Cuspers, all born either right before the S&H Boomer boundary or between the S&H and demographic definitions of "Baby Boomer":

Rudy Giuliani (b. 1944, R)
Joe Biden (b. 1942, D)
Tom Tancredo (b. 1945, R)
Chris Dodd (b. 1944, D)

This URL shows all of the birthyears: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Pr...ial_Candidates
I want people to know that peace is possible even in this stupid day and age. Prem Rawat, June 8, 2008







Post#35 at 09-24-2007 04:15 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 04:15 PM #35
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

The European equivalent of our Revolutionary War 4T was the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, lasting from 1789 to 1815, with the climax perhaps at 1812, during Napoleon's march to Moscow, and the Regeneracy perhaps starting with the establishment of the First French Republic in 1792.







Post#36 at 09-24-2007 04:37 PM by KaiserD2 [at David Kaiser '47 joined Jul 2001 #posts 5,220]
---
09-24-2007, 04:37 PM #36
Join Date
Jul 2001
Location
David Kaiser '47
Posts
5,220

Cusps?

Various comments:

GHWB, though last-wave, was GI all the way. Carter was Silent all the way--because he went into the Naval Academy and missed the war while his contemporary joined the Navy and 18 and became a Silent. Anyone who doubts Bush I was a GI should read his published letters. You couldn't get him to express a feeling with a thumbscrew.. .

I have been making the point about the 1901-4 cohorts for over a decade, based mainly on Lindbergh and Steinbeck, two obvious Losts, and there are many others in there as well, even though you also have Lou Gehrig '03, a classic GI if ever there was one. Meanwhile, I think they set the Missionary beginning in `1860 basically because of one man, Bryan. It should have been 1862 or so and the end should have been at least 1884. (My grandmother, b. 1884, d. 1923--I have a lot of her letters--was a Prophet all the way.) Moving Losts into the first few years of the twentieth century also makes sense.

Since I can hardly imagine less of a Prophet than either Grant or Hayes it's hard to see their confluence as significant.

Gingrich is certainly a Boomer, albeit with a Silent life cycle. (I had three wives, you might call it.) Thompson is a Silent as anyone old enough to remember his debut during Watergate can attest. Actually a rather sleazey Silent. But Bill Clinton, because of his family, I suspect, was in many ways more of a Silent than a Boomer. (Right down to having his Awakening in midlife!) Hillary, on the other hand. .. Boomer all the way.

Barack reminds me a lot of FDR, even if he's just on the other side of the cusp.







Post#37 at 09-24-2007 05:05 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-24-2007, 05:05 PM #37
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
The European equivalent of our Revolutionary War 4T was the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, lasting from 1789 to 1815, with the climax perhaps at 1812, during Napoleon's march to Moscow, and the Regeneracy perhaps starting with the establishment of the First French Republic in 1792.
I could agree with this, although it is different in certain parts of Europe. Russia, for example, wasn't in a 4T, and it appears England's may have climaxed earlier, perhaps in 1805.

John X. suggested looking at the climax as more of a continuum than a single event, where the climax would be a time where the value of a human life reaches its nadir. This would indicate a climax from June 6, 1944 through the end of the WWII as the most recent climax. For France, I could see an 1812-1814 climax.







Post#38 at 09-24-2007 06:52 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 06:52 PM #38
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

Quote Originally Posted by MichaelEaston View Post
I could agree with this, although it is different in certain parts of Europe. Russia, for example, wasn't in a 4T, and it appears England's may have climaxed earlier, perhaps in 1805.

John X. suggested looking at the climax as more of a continuum than a single event, where the climax would be a time where the value of a human life reaches its nadir. This would indicate a climax from June 6, 1944 through the end of the WWII as the most recent climax. For France, I could see an 1812-1814 climax.
Uh, last time I checked history, it said Russia was in a 4T. Britain was also in a 4T. Read history books, and not that Xenakis fraud. Mr. Xenakis should be imprisoned for lying.







Post#39 at 09-24-2007 07:01 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 07:01 PM #39
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

Quote Originally Posted by KaiserD2 View Post
Various comments:

GHWB, though last-wave, was GI all the way. Carter was Silent all the way--because he went into the Naval Academy and missed the war while his contemporary joined the Navy and 18 and became a Silent. Anyone who doubts Bush I was a GI should read his published letters. You couldn't get him to express a feeling with a thumbscrew.. .

I have been making the point about the 1901-4 cohorts for over a decade, based mainly on Lindbergh and Steinbeck, two obvious Losts, and there are many others in there as well, even though you also have Lou Gehrig '03, a classic GI if ever there was one. Meanwhile, I think they set the Missionary beginning in `1860 basically because of one man, Bryan. It should have been 1862 or so and the end should have been at least 1884. (My grandmother, b. 1884, d. 1923--I have a lot of her letters--was a Prophet all the way.) Moving Losts into the first few years of the twentieth century also makes sense.

Since I can hardly imagine less of a Prophet than either Grant or Hayes it's hard to see their confluence as significant.

Gingrich is certainly a Boomer, albeit with a Silent life cycle. (I had three wives, you might call it.) Thompson is a Silent as anyone old enough to remember his debut during Watergate can attest. Actually a rather sleazey Silent. But Bill Clinton, because of his family, I suspect, was in many ways more of a Silent than a Boomer. (Right down to having his Awakening in midlife!) Hillary, on the other hand. .. Boomer all the way.

Barack reminds me a lot of FDR, even if he's just on the other side of the cusp.
The Lost Generation's last cohort was in 1900. This is undisputable. The experience of fighting in World War I did not affect anyone born after 1900, as they were too young to join the Army. Carter is a G. I., and can never be a Silent. He's just suppressed. Jane Addams was also born in 1860, and she sure as hell was no Progressive. Your grandmother was an exception to the Lost Generation. And Truman overrides any possibility of 1884 being a Missionary year. 1883 was also a Lost year. Accept it or leave the website, as we are not to debate over what S&H said explicitly, as they know more than us and it just gives idiots that don't believe in the Theory reason to proclaim it crap. Gingrich had a Boomer lifecycle. Stop proclaiming that only Silents get divorces and remarriages, as that is too discriminatory for my tastes and the facts contradict you anyways. Bill Clinton is a Boomer, just accept it and stop chattering about your nonsensical ideas, the rest of us sane people are getting tired of it.







Post#40 at 09-24-2007 07:20 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-24-2007, 07:20 PM #40
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Uh, last time I checked history, it said Russia was in a 4T. Britain was also in a 4T. Read history books, and not that Xenakis fraud. Mr. Xenakis should be imprisoned for lying.
I'll ignore the ad hom attack and the last in a string of outrageous statements.

I'd like to know what history books you have read on the war. I've only read 3 or 4, so perhaps someone as knowledgeable as yourself could shed some light on the issue.

Until then, I'll just assume that your statement is based on ignorance. For starters, please explain to me how Russia's passive, peace-seeking, and defensive approach is indicative of a crisis.







Post#41 at 09-24-2007 08:10 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 08:10 PM #41
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

Quote Originally Posted by MichaelEaston View Post
I'll ignore the ad hom attack and the last in a string of outrageous statements.

I'd like to know what history books you have read on the war. I've only read 3 or 4, so perhaps someone as knowledgeable as yourself could shed some light on the issue.

Until then, I'll just assume that your statement is based on ignorance. For starters, please explain to me how Russia's passive, peace-seeking, and defensive approach is indicative of a crisis.
Please explain why Russia would be on a completely different turning than its neighbors. It wasn't. Europe's saecula are all fairly close to one another, due to events that just so happen to be pan-European. If you don't accept this, then you can just screw off, bub, b/c history doesn't bend to your leftist dreams.







Post#42 at 09-24-2007 08:28 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-24-2007, 08:28 PM #42
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Please explain why Russia would be on a completely different turning than its neighbors. It wasn't. Europe's saecula are all fairly close to one another, due to events that just so happen to be pan-European. If you don't accept this, then you can just screw off, bub, b/c history doesn't bend to your leftist dreams.
Me? Leftist? And what does politics have to do with this?

Where to begin? First off, "events" don't necessarily coincide with generations. So you're wrong on that point. Aren't you a strict constructionist when it comes to S&H? They would be ashamed that you asserted that due to pan-European events (lol) Russia is on the timeline as the rest of Europe. Have you forgot generations? For shame, sir. Secondly, Russia is not just another part of Europe. To suggest this is completely laughable. They have a completely different religious and historical background, considering themselves distinct from the rest of Europe and the true successors to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire. This of course, set up a deep fault line between them and those Ottoman heathens.

So for all I care, you can crawl back to your hole or be jailed for being a BIG FAT LIAR (TM) (am I allowed to use this?). I'm still waiting to hear your enlightened ideas Sean.







Post#43 at 09-24-2007 10:14 PM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
09-24-2007, 10:14 PM #43
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
The European equivalent of our Revolutionary War 4T was the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, lasting from 1789 to 1815, with the climax perhaps at 1812, during Napoleon's march to Moscow, and the Regeneracy perhaps starting with the establishment of the First French Republic in 1792.
IMO the Revolution 4T in France started when France became our ally, turning the American Revolution into a world war and ruining France's finances. The Regeneracy occurred with the calling of the States-General and the Third Estate declaring itself the National Assembly. The Climax was the period just following Napoleon's coup and the Resolution was Napoleon declaring himself emperor and signing a peace treaty (that didn't last long) with Great Britian in (IIRC) 1805. The rest of the Napoleonic Wars were in a 1T.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#44 at 09-24-2007 10:30 PM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-24-2007, 10:30 PM #44
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
IMO the Revolution 4T in France started when France became our ally, turning the American Revolution into a world war and ruining France's finances. The Regeneracy occurred with the calling of the States-General and the Third Estate declaring itself the National Assembly. The Climax was the period just following Napoleon's coup and the Resolution was Napoleon declaring himself emperor and signing a peace treaty (that didn't last long) with Great Britian in (IIRC) 1805. The rest of the Napoleonic Wars were in a 1T.
Don't even bother with him (I don't know why I do). He's completely impenetrable.

The Napoleonic Wars were conducted in such a ruthless and crazy fashion that a 1st turning war is not applicable. Furthermore, a major sociopolitical change had taken place, for those of you who are not convinced. The balance of power in Europe had shifted from you-know-who to you-know-who.







Post#45 at 09-24-2007 11:32 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 11:32 PM #45
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
IMO the Revolution 4T in France started when France became our ally, turning the American Revolution into a world war and ruining France's finances. The Regeneracy occurred with the calling of the States-General and the Third Estate declaring itself the National Assembly. The Climax was the period just following Napoleon's coup and the Resolution was Napoleon declaring himself emperor and signing a peace treaty (that didn't last long) with Great Britian in (IIRC) 1805. The rest of the Napoleonic Wars were in a 1T.
Okay, Mr. I'm-a-crazy-idiot, what the hell do you think the Congress of Vienna represents for Europe? It can only be the resolution coming at the very end of a Crisis. 1789 is universally recognized as a pivotal year in European history. Obviously, this is due to the Crisis that began that year. What else could the period from 1789 to 1815 be? Only a 4T.







Post#46 at 09-24-2007 11:33 PM by sean '90 [at joined Jul 2007 #posts 1,625]
---
09-24-2007, 11:33 PM #46
Join Date
Jul 2007
Posts
1,625

Quote Originally Posted by MichaelEaston View Post
Me? Leftist? And what does politics have to do with this?

Where to begin? First off, "events" don't necessarily coincide with generations. So you're wrong on that point. Aren't you a strict constructionist when it comes to S&H? They would be ashamed that you asserted that due to pan-European events (lol) Russia is on the timeline as the rest of Europe. Have you forgot generations? For shame, sir. Secondly, Russia is not just another part of Europe. To suggest this is completely laughable. They have a completely different religious and historical background, considering themselves distinct from the rest of Europe and the true successors to the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire. This of course, set up a deep fault line between them and those Ottoman heathens.

So for all I care, you can crawl back to your hole or be jailed for being a BIG FAT LIAR (TM) (am I allowed to use this?). I'm still waiting to hear your enlightened ideas Sean.
Russia is European. That choice is not for them to decide, but has been decided already by God.







Post#47 at 09-25-2007 12:11 AM by Odin [at Moorhead, MN, USA joined Sep 2006 #posts 14,442]
---
09-25-2007, 12:11 AM #47
Join Date
Sep 2006
Location
Moorhead, MN, USA
Posts
14,442

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Okay, Mr. I'm-a-crazy-idiot, what the hell do you think the Congress of Vienna represents for Europe? It can only be the resolution coming at the very end of a Crisis. 1789 is universally recognized as a pivotal year in European history. Obviously, this is due to the Crisis that began that year. What else could the period from 1789 to 1815 be? Only a 4T.

The internal transformation of French society and the French state (4T) had worked itself out by the time Napoleon crowned himself emperor. The following period, domestically, was mostly a conservative period of consolidation (1T), not innovation. You are misinterpreting 1T imperialism for a 4T crisis war (the real crisis war was France fending off Austrian and Prussian invasion in the 1790s). The Congress of Vienna just reinforced the conservative 1T mood that was present at the time.
To recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less.

-Oscar Wilde, The Soul of Man under Socialism







Post#48 at 09-25-2007 07:38 AM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-25-2007, 07:38 AM #48
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Russia is European. That choice is not for them to decide, but has been decided already by God.
How am I to respond to this? Lol, I mean, who am I kidding? Just when I thought I had completely refuted your point, and thought this was a historical argument, you tell me God is on your side. You win. Game over.
Last edited by Matt1989; 09-25-2007 at 07:42 AM.







Post#49 at 09-25-2007 07:41 AM by Matt1989 [at joined Sep 2005 #posts 3,018]
---
09-25-2007, 07:41 AM #49
Join Date
Sep 2005
Posts
3,018

Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
The internal transformation of French society and the French state (4T) had worked itself out by the time Napoleon crowned himself emperor. The following period, domestically, was mostly a conservative period of consolidation (1T), not innovation. You are misinterpreting 1T imperialism for a 4T crisis war (the real crisis war was France fending off Austrian and Prussian invasion in the 1790s). The Congress of Vienna just reinforced the conservative 1T mood that was present at the time.
No no no!

I agree that 1T wars following a government takeover are usually wars of consolidation. However, even taking a brief glance at the Napoleonic Wars is not the way in which they were carried out. Napoleon hoped to create a single unified European state, and anyone who stood in the way would be crushed by his energetic army.

It just does not fit. The Congress of Vienna reflected a 1T mood, probably since it was post-climax, which I consider to be 1T anyway.
Last edited by Matt1989; 09-25-2007 at 11:10 AM.







Post#50 at 09-25-2007 11:12 AM by Justin '77 [at Meh. joined Sep 2001 #posts 12,182]
---
09-25-2007, 11:12 AM #50
Join Date
Sep 2001
Location
Meh.
Posts
12,182

Quote Originally Posted by sean '90 View Post
Russia is European.
I'm sure they'll be glad to have you clear that up for them. I mean, Russians actually living in Russia seem to have this crazy idea that Russian identity is distinct from both European and Asian (which latter landmass, by the way, is the home of the bulk of the Russian land -- as well as the bulk of the Russian nationalities).
"Qu'est-ce que c'est que cela, la loi ? On peut donc être dehors. Je ne comprends pas. Quant à moi, suis-je dans la loi ? suis-je hors la loi ? Je n'en sais rien. Mourir de faim, est-ce être dans la loi ?" -- Tellmarch

"Человек не может снять с себя ответственности за свои поступки." - L. Tolstoy

"[it]
is no doubt obvious, the cult of the experts is both self-serving, for those who propound it, and fraudulent." - Noam Chomsky
-----------------------------------------